Reed vs Koeman

[silly point]

Any truth to this?

 

Report: Money not the only factor in Koeman's move to Everton - HITC

https://apple.news/AHu4faG9UNziSuQOZdjs8Hw

 

 

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[Saint-Armstrong]

It's just a rehash of the Neil Ashton piece in The Sun today.

[Lighthouse]

Not sure which young players exactly Koeman was expected to play. Targett and JWP both saw a fair bit of action without ever doing anything special. Reed? (The other one) never saw anything from him which screamed, 'first name on the team sheet'.

[Faz]

Not sure which young players exactly Koeman was expected to play. Targett and JWP both saw a fair bit of action without ever doing anything special. Reed? (The other one) never saw anything from him which screamed, 'first name on the team sheet'.

 

I don't think anyone was expecting RK to play youngsters regardless of ability. The point was that some of them were to be allowed to train regularly with the senior pros to aid their development, which RK didn't allow according to the piece.

[pluto]

Third party trying to stir fans up against Reed, Ashton did a similar article last August in the mail before he wento the sun.

 

No big row from what i see and its all been blown out of proportion

[benjii]

Not sure which young players exactly Koeman was expected to play. Targett and JWP both saw a fair bit of action without ever doing anything special. Reed? (The other one) never saw anything from him which screamed, 'first name on the team sheet'.

 

I think the suggestion is not that he was expected to name a certain quota of academy players in the team (as you say, he did use Targett as back-up and I don't think he could realistically have picked anyone else other than Reed), more that his handling of the first team didn't embrace the philosophy of a "clear pathway". That doesn't mean picking players without merit (the club aren't silly enough to think you need to throw kids into a top-half team if they aren't ready), but it does mean involving them on the training ground, applying time to help improve them and generally showing an interest in that side of things. I think was something Poch was well into but perhaps Ron saw it as outside his immediate remit.

 

Personally, I think Les Reed deserves the respect and gratitude of the fan-base. He is the one constant of the post-administration SFC and if a condition of being Saints first team coach/manager is that you have to adopt the philosophy and vision that he has been trying to implement, then I think that's fair enough.

[Lighthouse]

I think the suggestion is not that he was expected to name a certain quota of academy players in the team (as you say, he did use Targett as back-up and I don't think he could realistically have picked anyone else other than Reed), more that his handling of the first team didn't embrace the philosophy of a "clear pathway". That doesn't mean picking players without merit (the club aren't silly enough to think you need to throw kids into a top-half team if they aren't ready), but it does mean involving them on the training ground, applying time to help improve them and generally showing an interest in that side of things. I think was something Poch was well into but perhaps Ron saw it as outside his immediate remit.

 

Personally, I think Les Reed deserves the respect and gratitude of the fan-base. He is the one constant of the post-administration SFC and if a condition of being Saints first team coach/manager is that you have to adopt the philosophy and vision that he has been trying to implement, then I think that's fair enough.

 

I fully respect Les and his philosophy but I think Koeman's time here just coincided with a dry spell for the academy. Had Shaw and Chambers been coming through in the last 2 years we may not be having this debate.

 

It's hard to see Koeman forging a clear pathway unless the talent is there.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Is Koeman still here ?

[Nordic Saint]

I wonder how much freedom the next manager will have under Reed. He seems to have assumed even more control of football affairs than before. Bearing in mind what a disaster he was in his only spell as a manager at Charlton. I'm not sure this is such a good thing. Will the next manager just be someone he feels he can control easily or a strong figure like Frank de Boer, who'll want control over matters like team selection? I'm hoping for the latter.

[Mallagroth]

I'd rather judge him for his time here, and it seems a little far fetched that our success is completely a coincidence. He just shouldn't be doing any PR.

 

This and especially last bit. He has made himself look silly once a season since Cortese left and isn't a reflection of what he has actually done and achieved. He's done a great job but the Alderweireld situation was pretty cringeworthy and this one hasn't been great either.

[Chalkboy]

When Ron joined he knew what the requirements and philosophy of the club were concerning the academy. After reading an article a couple of months after Ron joined (can't be arsed to find it at the moment) he was definitely involving the academy players in training. Something changed.

My opinion which is probably wrong (), is that after his first season, gaining plenty of plaudits linking him with big jobs, Ron decided he was ready for the big time. A big club with big money. He suddenly had no time for the academy, why bother coaching them, they weren't going to get him where he wanted to be? He wanted ready made players to get results to boost his image, and his career. He started talking about money, how little Southampton spent, and "ambition".

We hear that he blocked off the academy players from the first team, something that directly conflicts with the club philosophy. he publicly stated that they weren't good enough, again, something that would be frowned upon by the board and should have been kept behind closed doors. For me Ron knew he would be making a move just as soon as someone with the funds that he desired came along. At some point, probably last Summer, he figured he could do better than Southampton. Am I the only one that thought his body language had changed the first half of last season? He seemed unhappy and unsettled to me. None of what has happened is a surprise when I look back at the season. His ambitions were not in line with the way this club is run.

Edited 17 June, 2016 by Chalkboy

[angelman]

You know what Chalkie, I don't bother trying to read too much into anything. I find the whole industry to be untrustworthy, deceitful even, that what is the point of trying to second guess anything. All one can do, is take someone at their word and expect them not to stick to it. Maybe that is overly cynical of me.

[Supersubpuckett]

From everything we've ever been told we have a strategy and structure that lays out exactly how we play, recruit, train, develop etc etc - players, managers and staff need to fit into this otherwise it won't work in the long run. It's an approach that means we don't need to rely on a specific player to be successful, i.e. sell a left back then get another with same attributes to take over. Same with managers.

 

This is why we can handle change without too much fuss, including managers, and if the manager won't go along with this system then you can understand why it is an issue the club will need to confront. May also explain why players seem to struggle once they leave here and why seemingly average players look like world beaters when they play for saints.

 

Some of the lazy media still don't seem to understand this and appear to have an issue with us not p1ssing money up the wall.

[Wes Tender]

From everything we've ever been told we have a strategy and structure that lays out exactly how we play, recruit, train, develop etc etc - players, managers and staff need to fit into this otherwise it won't work in the long run. It's an approach that means we don't need to rely on a specific player to be successful, i.e. sell a left back then get another with same attributes to take over. Same with managers.

 

This is why we can handle change without too much fuss, including managers, and if the manager won't go along with this system then you can understand why it is an issue the club will need to confront. May also explain why players seem to struggle once they leave here and why seemingly average players look like world beaters when they play for saints.

 

Some of the lazy media still don't seem to understand this and appear to have an issue with us not p1ssing money up the wall.

 

I agree totally. The philosophy of allowing the academy players to develop their skills by close proximity to the first team sounds a good one to me and core to the way we operate. If Koeman wasn't happy with that, then I can see that this might be a reason why the club were not that unhappy to see him depart.

[Chris27687]

he didn't play the kids - if that is the cornerstone of the club so be it.

 

have a plan and stick to it. The snake can go **** himself as far as i'm concerned - anyone questioning the board (Reed et al) is insane, look where we are and how we keep proving people wrong year in year out.

[Chalkboy]

You know what Chalkie, I don't bother trying to read too much into anything. I find the whole industry to be untrustworthy, deceitful even, that what is the point of trying to second guess anything. All one can do, is take someone at their word and expect them not to stick to it. Maybe that is overly cynical of me.

 

I share much of the same cynicism to be honest so I don't think you're overly cynical. There's just not much point having any heroes these days as they invariably disappoint, in the football world especially.

Still, I'm the curious type who likes to know what's happened and how events came to pass. I like mysteries and would love to know the real story from behind the scenes

[SaintTex]

I have no idea if there is any truth to any of it, but you can't argue the results on the pitch. The talent on the pitch for Southampton has never been greater; the result of that is a 6th place finish and less opportunities for young Academy players.

 

That is going to be true of any big club. We are not the same club we were one year ago, three years ago, five years ago.

 

Now, ideally you would love to develop youth academy players who can reach the talent level required to be a consistent top 8 club in this league. This should be a goal and aspiration. However, they shouldn't be inserted into first team games just because; they have to be good enough.

 

NOW, If Koeman made that process of youth development more difficult by what happens behind the scenes or on the training ground that is a completely different story, but other than Targett and maybe Reed now, by my eyes, no one else was close to being good enough to play on the same pitch while fighting and competing to secure European football.

[Wopper]

So Koeman failed to shaft us for 7 million yr but found some mugs who will that is the truth.

[Show me the mané]

Is Koeman still here ?

Why post this reply? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. Yes Koeman is gone but there are still points that affect the club going forward that are worth discussion. This forum seems to be full up with people that try and come across as smug or better than others.

 

I never rated Koeman as highly as some but Reed has a track record of not being able to put together an attractive / ambitious plan to attract players / managers to stay.

 

That is a concern

[Le Timmier]

I wonder how much freedom the next manager will have under Reed. He seems to have assumed even more control of football affairs than before. Bearing in mind what a disaster he was in his only spell as a manager at Charlton. I'm not sure this is such a good thing. Will the next manager just be someone he feels he can control easily or a strong figure like Frank de Boer, who'll want control over matters like team selection? I'm hoping for the latter.

 

Really can't understand this. Did you miss the bit where Les Reed presided over arguably the most consistently successful period in the club's history?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Why post this reply? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. Yes Koeman is gone but there are still points that affect the club going forward that are worth discussion. This forum seems to be full up with people that try and come across as smug or better than others.

 

I never rated Koeman as highly as some but Reed has a track record of not being able to put together an attractive / ambitious plan to attract players / managers to stay.

 

That is a concern

 

ooohh dear....as is frequently said on here " if you don`t like it don`t post...

 

He also has a track record of moving the club forward year on year

[Show me the mané]

ooohh dear....as is frequently said on here " if you don`t like it don`t post...

 

He also has a track record of moving the club forward year on year

You applied to the OP with a sarcastic comment suggesting you didn't like what was posted yet you posted anyway. Hypocrite. Every post I've seen from you is either criticism of other posters are happy clap rubbish

[Show me the mané]

Or*

[eurosaint]

Any truth to this?

 

Report: Money not the only factor in Koeman's move to Everton - HITC

https://apple.news/AHu4faG9UNziSuQOZdjs8Hw

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Have to say that I find the Jack Schitt version of events to be the most plausible !

[Toadhall Saint]

Why post this reply? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. Yes Koeman is gone but there are still points that affect the club going forward that are worth discussion. This forum seems to be full up with people that try and come across as smug or better than others.

 

I never rated Koeman as highly as some but Reed has a track record of not being able to put together an attractive / ambitious plan to attract players / managers to stay.

 

That is a concern

 

So tell me what player or manager has left in recent times for a less £££ or a CL team. When are people going to realise that against certain clubs we will never compete for wages or position. If you want the club run for the short term you only need to look down the road. Going that way would concern me.

[angelman]

Just one thing worth remembering - the club has said absolutely nothing in all of this. The press is speculating and going into conjecture, now renewed based on what RK has said.

[shurlock]

I have no idea if there is any truth to any of it, but you can't argue the results on the pitch. The talent on the pitch for Southampton has never been greater; the result of that is a 6th place finish and less opportunities for young Academy players.

 

That is going to be true of any big club. We are not the same club we were one year ago, three years ago, five years ago.

 

Now, ideally you would love to develop youth academy players who can reach the talent level required to be a consistent top 8 club in this league. This should be a goal and aspiration. However, they shouldn't be inserted into first team games just because; they have to be good enough.

 

NOW, If Koeman made that process of youth development more difficult by what happens behind the scenes or on the training ground that is a completely different story, but other than Targett and maybe Reed now, by my eyes, no one else was close to being good enough to play on the same pitch while fighting and competing to secure European football.

 

The claim (and source of contention) isnt that Koeman refused to play academy prospects; rather that he was unwilling for them to train with the first team and generally showed little interest in the academy.

[eelpie]

he didn't play the kids - if that is the cornerstone of the club so be it.

 

You know how critical Saint Webbers are when young players get their chance in the first team, expecting the finished product from go, and blaming the lad when we don't get the result we might have got if so and so wasn't injured. Even Targett was compared unfavourably with Shaw, yet he did well.

 

It certainly is true that Koeman became only interested in playing his best first teamers, especially after the bad winter run was spoiling his reputation. But I agree, the academy fringe players should be involved in training. Otherwise the whole Academy project is blunted.

Edited 17 June, 2016 by eelpie

[Daft Kerplunk]

Really can't understand this. Did you miss the bit where Les Reed presided over arguably the most consistently successful period in the club's history?

 

Apart from the 80s when we were better. Keep in kind football did exist before the Premier League, and this is not a dig at Les Reed, it's a reminder that in the 80s we were actually pretty good for quite a chunk of it.

[Village Saint]

Why post this reply? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. Yes Koeman is gone but there are still points that affect the club going forward that are worth discussion. This forum seems to be full up with people that try and come across as smug or better than others.

 

I never rated Koeman as highly as some but Reed has a track record of not being able to put together an attractive / ambitious plan to attract players / managers to stay.

 

That is a concern

 

Really!!!! Our last two managers have been Pochettino and Koeman - both rated really highly by some. He has secured Fraser Forster, Ryan Bertrand, James Ward-Prowse and Virgil van Dijk on long term contracts; Morgan Schneiderlein was here for 7 or 8 seasons. etc etc etc. He seems to have had no trouble in doing exactly what you say he cant.

[david in sweden]

Koeman using the "sign now or else " tactic sounds a bit far-fetched, but it's clear that if we were to go out and spend £x millions on more new players and Koeman were to walk next summer .....we'd have half a squad of players who had populated the Dutch League..

 

If Koeman wsn't prepared to stay long tewrm then he's made his choice to upgrade Everton......somehow I don't think it'll be quite so easy as it seems to some.

 

we're well used to this ..." I might stay or maybe I'll go " outbursts from managers and players......it's not the end of the world.

 

As regards the comments about NOT using more Academy players ?...in all honesty, there were very few who'd get a look in on last seasons form.

The majority of the squad were internationals, and it would have been hard to break into the first team squad as a regular.

 

If anyone thinks RK deliberately avoided Academy lads, he should say who he'd have chosen? and who he would have replaced?...I can't see anyone in particular.

[Globetrotter]

Koeman using the "sign now or else " tactic sounds a bit far-fetched, but it's clear that if we were to go out and spend £x millions on more new players and Koeman were to walk next summer .....we'd have half a squad of players who had populated the Dutch League..

 

If Koeman wsn't prepared to stay long tewrm then he's made his choice to upgrade Everton......somehow I don't think it'll be quite so easy as it seems to some.

 

we're well used to this ..." I might stay or maybe I'll go " outbursts from managers and players......it's not the end of the world.

 

As regards the comments about NOT using more Academy players ?...in all honesty, there were very few who'd get a look in on last seasons form.

The majority of the squad were internationals, and it would have been hard to break into the first team squad as a regular.

 

If anyone thinks RK deliberately avoided Academy lads, he should say who he'd have chosen? and who he would have replaced?...I can't see anyone in particular.

He could have played Reed in midfield instead of Toby a fair few times last season. Even Poch didn't do that with Toby, even when Dier was out (and even though he arguably should have as Wimmer is miles better than Mason!)

 

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[trousers]

Adam Blackmore ‏@bigadamsport

As for today, disingenuous of Koeman to throw #saintsfc board & Les Reed under the bus as a parting gift after they put him where he is. At no stage talking to club, agent, ex-agent & others over last few weeks has today's version of events been even hinted at

[Batman]

Adam Blackmore ‏@bigadamsport

As for today, disingenuous of Koeman to throw #saintsfc board & Les Reed under the bus as a parting gift after they put him where he is. At no stage talking to club, agent, ex-agent & others over last few weeks has today's version of events been even hinted at

 

Saints could always make a statement instead of using various journos and ITK to do it for them

[angelman]

And you know for sure that the club is prepping people?

[Batman]

And you know for sure that the club is prepping people?

 

Guessing jack Schmitt, k,billy, Adam Blackmore are all making things up.

 

The week before Koeman leaves there was a consistent line coming from 2-3 angles outside an official statement. Blackmore is still giving the "thoughts" of those at the top of the club regarding Koeman

[simo]

If true good work from Les for sticking to our philosophy and "The Southampton way" , Winning at all costs isn't everything!

[stevematthews635]

Making things up dulldays? Sure, they are all making things up and all saying the same thing.

 

Surprised you have not jumped ship for everton......as we should have been more like them in your opinion.

 

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[Red]

The claim (and source of contention) isnt that Koeman refused to play academy prospects; rather that he was unwilling for them to train with the first team and generally showed little interest in the academy.

 

Very much this! Also, it says in the article that at one point RK banned all of them from first team training (not that he did not select them for the first team). Our entire "Southampton Way" approach is to show the youngsters what it's like and what it takes to make the step up (including pictures in canteen etc.) and motivate them to make the grade. A far cry from what most are suggesting here, that RK should have played youngers in the first team that had not yet made the grade. All the more puzzling when you consider the "Southampton Way" was according to RK one of the main reasons he joined in the first place?

[david in sweden]

If it wasn't just about money ......Les Reed was asking RK for something much more important. Dedication and Loyalty.

[david in sweden]

He could have played Reed in midfield instead of Toby a fair few times last season. Even Poch didn't do that with Toby, even when Dier was out (and even though he arguably should have as Wimmer is miles better than Mason!)

 

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well...yes...he could have done, but Toby was (argueably) one of our best players in that season....and what Poch did with his Spurs players is not an arguement.

[Pengi]

If it wasn't just about money ......Les Reed was asking RK for something much more important. Dedication and Loyalty.

Les did not show much dedication and loyalty to Pardew or Adkins

[Globetrotter]

well...yes...he could have done, but Toby was (argueably) one of our best players in that season....and what Poch did with his Spurs players is not an arguement.

The point is Toby would still have played in his preferred position of centre back (as proven by his subsequent time at Spurs), and Reed in midfield. Ronald preferred to put Yoshi in and disrupt balance of team instead.

 

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[ADutchSaint]

Im not sure what to make of all this, i just hope there's not much truth to all this cause this doesnt look good.

[JxgrSaint]

From Jeremy Wilson on Twitter:

 

"In terms of Koeman, idea he left because of contract situation not v convincing - money/frictions over promoting younger players more likely"

 

"Southampton preferred that he extended but would have let him see out last year. Offer was 3yrs at £4.5m with a get-out clause next summer"

[Badger]

From Jeremy Wilson on Twitter:

 

"In terms of Koeman, idea he left because of contract situation not v convincing - money/frictions over promoting younger players more likely"

 

"Southampton preferred that he extended but would have let him see out last year. Offer was 3yrs at £4.5m with a get-out clause next summer"

 

Very surprised he didn't take that option. Despite the £ currently on offer from Everton a third season at Saints and there were likely to be better options next year, Arsenal for one.

[John Boy Saint]

I would imagine from the clubs point of view Harrison Reed is the nub of the issues regarding not bringing academy players through.

I might be biased as every time I have seen Harry play for the first team he has not let the team down and been more than ready to make the step up. Yet Jordie Clasie was bought in, at RKs behest, and basically shut Harrison out of the first team, whilst not blowing our socks off with his performances by any stretch of the imagination.

[brmbrm]

Why post this reply? It doesn't contribute to the conversation. Yes Koeman is gone but there are still points that affect the club going forward that are worth discussion. This forum seems to be full up with people that try and come across as smug or better than others.

 

I never rated Koeman as highly as some but Reed has a track record of not being able to put together an attractive / ambitious plan to attract players / managers to stay.

 

That is a concern

 

Ugh? You not noticed what has happened the last few years or something? The consistent thing includes Les Reed

[ALWAYS_SFC]

You applied to the OP with a sarcastic comment suggesting you didn't like what was posted yet you posted anyway. Hypocrite. Every post I've seen from you is either criticism of other posters are happy clap rubbish

 

I posted a question you prissy Pillock.

 

You call my post rubbish after you post that utter crap....classic irony...

[sadoldgit]

Les did not show much dedication and loyalty to Pardew or Adkins

 

Was that down to Les Reed or Cortese?