FdB, Emery and any other good European coach.

[Saint-Fred]

We are a bigger club. On everything you gauge a bigger club on...

 

However, the current situation of the club's differs.

 

I wouldn't say the squad is inferior at all, just underperforming. Would you say Liverpool's squad is inferior, or Chelsea's, just because they finished below you?

 

Youth academy - you have a fantastic academy that has produced some brilliant players. However, of this current crop, only three to me seem to be good enough to make the step up (and none are 'superstars') - Ward-Prowse (very good player), Reed (looks decent), Targett (defensively raw but looks to have all the right attributes). I;m sure there'll be more that i'm unaware of and you will be able to fill me in?

 

Everton have recently produced an England regular in Barkley. For all the stick he gets, he's scored 14 goals and got 12 assists this season, despite being crap from March onwards. There's also some very promising prospects (and they're just that) coming through - Dowell, Davies, Browning and Pennington to name a few, and there's players we've signed but then developed (e.g. Stones, Holgate, Garbutt). So to belittle the academy is ridiculous. In fact, I'd say they are very similar in set-up. The fact that the best two British players of the last decade or so (Rooney and Bale) came from the two academies says a lot? We aren't a Liverpool, or Newcastle, who barely produce a thing, so stop acting like it.

 

Sotton are a good club, but this bitterness is so strange. You have finished above Everton twice in your history as a club? Twice. in the last two seasons.

 

Objectively speaking, as I've said before on this forum (and got slated for though I can understand why as that seems to be the default reaction from any fanbase) I can see why the RK move could be viewed as a side-ways step. But think about it - he's getting paid (rightly or wrongly) a lot more, he's been promised a 'bigger' budget and, with the fact that there are three other huge managers now in the same area, you can certainly see the attraction.

 

Also, before even more hate gets directed at Everton, I can confirm (and this is solid info from the person who has been the most up to date (actually, ahead of the press) throughout this entire process) that Sotton gave Everton permission to speak to RK at the end of the season. We opened discussions through the club, and there was no trickery or tapping up. Initially, it seemed Koeman was happy to remain at Saints, but something happened (most likely we switched our attention to Emery) to change his mind - he basically didn't want to miss out. We didn't up our initial offer or anything, the first offer (at the end of the season) was the same as it is right now.

 

Happy to debate but why are you so fixated on wanting one of us to say how big your club is.?

17 Newcastle United 169.3 England 19 Green-Up-Arrow.svg +2

18 Everton 165.1 England 20 Green-Up-Arrow.svg +2

19 Internazionale 164.8 Italy 17 RedDownArrow.svg -2

20 West Ham United 160.9 England 21 Green-Up-Arrow.svg +1

21 Galatasaray 159.1 Turkey 18 RedDownArrow.svg -3

22 Southampton 149.5

 

Revenue wise you are slightly bigger as shown above which is pretty much the only important measure at any given time?

Worth noting you are hundreds of millions behind Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea etc so investing 100 million in your squad is unlikely to make you champions of the world either? You are about the same size as Newcastle, West Ham etc..

Personally your need to have someone declare your club as bigger demonstrates that your club, like ours, is a makeweight well behind the big boys. Your investor may cement your place as one of the best of the rest ( although West Ham look set to splash some cash and have a stadium twice the size of yours) so you are likely to fall behind them

 

Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool,, and arsenal all have a better squad than you and likely to spend more than your 100 million this summer. So what do you really think you are going to achieve?

Edited 5 June, 2016 by Saint-Fred

[Saint IQ]

We are a bigger club. On everything you gauge a bigger club on...

 

However, the current situation of the club's differs.

 

I wouldn't say the squad is inferior at all, just underperforming. Would you say Liverpool's squad is inferior, or Chelsea's, just because they finished below you?

 

Youth academy - you have a fantastic academy that has produced some brilliant players. However, of this current crop, only three to me seem to be good enough to make the step up (and none are 'superstars') - Ward-Prowse (very good player), Reed (looks decent), Targett (defensively raw but looks to have all the right attributes). I;m sure there'll be more that i'm unaware of and you will be able to fill me in?

 

Everton have recently produced an England regular in Barkley. For all the stick he gets, he's scored 14 goals and got 12 assists this season, despite being crap from March onwards. There's also some very promising prospects (and they're just that) coming through - Dowell, Davies, Browning and Pennington to name a few, and there's players we've signed but then developed (e.g. Stones, Holgate, Garbutt). So to belittle the academy is ridiculous. In fact, I'd say they are very similar in set-up. The fact that the best two British players of the last decade or so (Rooney and Bale) came from the two academies says a lot? We aren't a Liverpool, or Newcastle, who barely produce a thing, so stop acting like it.

 

Sotton are a good club, but this bitterness is so strange. You have finished above Everton twice in your history as a club? Twice. in the last two seasons.

 

Objectively speaking, as I've said before on this forum (and got slated for though I can understand why as that seems to be the default reaction from any fanbase) I can see why the RK move could be viewed as a side-ways step. But think about it - he's getting paid (rightly or wrongly) a lot more, he's been promised a 'bigger' budget and, with the fact that there are three other huge managers now in the same area, you can certainly see the attraction.

 

Also, before even more hate gets directed at Everton, I can confirm (and this is solid info from the person who has been the most up to date (actually, ahead of the press) throughout this entire process) that Sotton gave Everton permission to speak to RK at the end of the season. We opened discussions through the club, and there was no trickery or tapping up. Initially, it seemed Koeman was happy to remain at Saints, but something happened (most likely we switched our attention to Emery) to change his mind - he basically didn't want to miss out. We didn't up our initial offer or anything, the first offer (at the end of the season) was the same as it is right now.

 

I'm not bitter but arrogant false statements like saints are just a yoyo club and this p1ss me off. I only had to search as far back as 2001/2 and 2003/4 where we finished above you, the season in between we were a whole one place below you.

[Saint-Fred]

If I remember right...Early eighties we had the better side usually finished above them. Late eighties was their purple patch won the league etc..nineties a mixed bag sometimes we finished higher sometimes them. Both Flirted with the drop if I remember coredtly finishing together just above the drop zone on a couple of occasions!

In my lifetime except for the small period in the late eighties and when we dropped out of the top division there has been very little in league positions between the two that I can remember.

[Badger]

De Boer, by a mile really. Cocu can use 1/2 more years at PSV i think but both will become great managers in the future.

 

 

What marks FDB out though as such a good prospect for us, and what is his style of play ?

 

Strange to me that he has twice now (at least) openly touted himself for a job in England (spurs & Everton), and on both times he's been overlooked, by raiding our manager as well as it happens.

 

Read elsewhere that Emery doesn't speak English. Wonder what Poch's old translator is up to now.

[Andy Durman]

FDB ticks all boxes

[Andy Durman]

Outside of the box has a very good article on him. Sorry I can't post it.

[mrfahaji]

If I remember right...Early eighties we had the better side usually finished above them. Late eighties was their purple patch won the league etc..nineties a mixed bag sometimes we finished higher sometimes them. Both Flirted with the drop if I remember coredtly finishing together just above the drop zone on a couple of occasions!

In my lifetime except for the small period in the late eighties and when we dropped out of the top division there has been very little in league positions between the two that I can remember.

 

Well we finished 2nd in 1984 behind Liverpool (and until this season we'd never finished above them). So we must have finished above Everton that season, or are they so stuck in that shadow that they are even claiming Liverpool's achievements as their own?

[Miltonaggro]

If I remember right...Early eighties we had the better side usually finished above them. Late eighties was their purple patch won the league etc..nineties a mixed bag sometimes we finished higher sometimes them. Both Flirted with the drop if I remember coredtly finishing together just above the drop zone on a couple of occasions!

In my lifetime except for the small period in the late eighties and when we dropped out of the top division there has been very little in league positions between the two that I can remember.

 

Spot on, and even when they were doing 'well' they seemed a horrible side, also rans, an arrogant Ipswich perhaps - the club of John Bailey and Adrian Heath. The latter of course is a name that gives Saints fans of a certain age who were at Highbury a nagging bitter memory. However, despite Heath's smash and grab they were second best on and off the pitch that day, and en masse they can certainly run fast!

[Dr. Kucho]

Maybe the dutch boys can help out -who do they rate higher: De Boer or Cocu?

 

Between Cocu and De Boer I would pick De Boer. Cocu did win the league with PSV the last 2 years, but also had a far better squad than de Boer had at Ajax.

 

Mate of mine, who has been a season ticket holder at Ajax for over 10 years, says Frank de Boer likes to promote youth and improves players. He claims on the downside that

De Boer let Ajax play boring football (note: Ajax fans demand they play Barcelona style football), and that due to inexperience he at times makes silly mistakes.

 

Its a risk to employ De Boer, but if we cant get Emery, de Boer would be second choice.

[sandwichsaint]

1970, 1973, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2015, 2016, complete list of the two seasons Saints have finished above Everton. Oh, hang on, it's 13 times, not 2 times.

 

Two things flicking through those old tables, for a big club Everton have had relatively little success and have indeed steered very close to relegation themselves on quite a few occasions. Flicking through it is also clear how well Moyes did, achieving and then maintaining top 6 finishes over a sustained period of time.

 

Everton are definitely a bigger club though; any club that can spunk £10m-£12m on a manager that might move them up 3 or 4 places in a couple of seasons before he then fecks off to his spiritual home (or even drops back down a level or two if the £££ price is right) have truly earned themselves genuine BigClub bragging rights.

[OldNick]

1970, 1973, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2015, 2016, complete list of the two seasons Saints have finished above Everton. Oh, hang on, it's 13 times, not 2 times.

 

Two things flicking through those old tables, for a big club Everton have had relatively little success and have indeed steered very close to relegation themselves on quite a few occasions. Flicking through it is also clear how well Moyes did, achieving and then maintaining top 6 finishes over a sustained period of time.

 

Everton are definitely a bigger club though; any club that can spunk £10m-£12m on a manager that might move them up 3 or 4 places in a couple of seasons before he then fecks off to his spiritual home (or even drops back down a level or two if the £££ price is right) have truly earned themselves genuine BigClub bragging rights.

thanks for that. I had always thought that Everton had never been relegated but apparently they have. They did get promotion the next season though.

[saintwbu]

1970, 1973, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2015, 2016, complete list of the two seasons Saints have finished above Everton. Oh, hang on, it's 13 times, not 2 times.

 

Two things flicking through those old tables, for a big club Everton have had relatively little success and have indeed steered very close to relegation themselves on quite a few occasions. Flicking through it is also clear how well Moyes did, achieving and then maintaining top 6 finishes over a sustained period of time.

 

Everton are definitely a bigger club though; any club that can spunk £10m-£12m on a manager that might move them up 3 or 4 places in a couple of seasons before he then fecks off to his spiritual home (or even drops back down a level or two if the £££ price is right) have truly earned themselves genuine BigClub bragging rights.

 

I know it sounds stupid because we were relegated and therefore lower than them for about 8 years, but obviously a large chunk of the Premier League era we spent outside it so in terms of seasons we've spent competing in the same league as Everton we have finished above them almost as often as they have us in the Premier League era (like I said, I'm talking about directly competing in the same league). Strange bunch, honestly didn't register on my radar until a couple of weeks back, now they're making Liverpool look almost likeable, almost...

[JxgrSaint]

I know it sounds stupid because we were relegated and therefore lower than them for about 8 years, but obviously a large chunk of the Premier League era we spent outside it so in terms of seasons we've spent competing in the same league as Everton we have finished above them almost as often as they have us in the Premier League era (like I said, I'm talking about directly competing in the same league). Strange bunch, honestly didn't register on my radar until a couple of weeks back, now they're making Liverpool look almost likeable, almost...

 

In fairness have a look at RAWK, they are quite self-deprecating when it comes to saints and nowhere near as condescending as the blue dippers...

[ericb]

In fairness have a look at RAWK, they are quite self-deprecating when it comes to saints and nowhere near as condescending as the blue dippers...

 

That's because Liverpool fc are genuinely one of the biggest clubs in the world and probably second only to united as the biggest in England.

 

They have no need to scream it or force it down the throats of others because they know they are.

 

Everton are clearly bigger than us, but if argue not by a significant amount. They're in the same bracket as villa, West Ham, Leeds and below the likes of Spurs and now a days Chelsea and man city.

 

The funny thing is they're less successful than wolves and yet when thy come up they don't give it this grand old club thing.

 

Also find it interesting people are forgetting that they stayed up in the mid 90s by some very suspect luck, and a fair few match going fans questioned how "fair" it was in an era of brown paper envelopes.

 

Between that, Heath and their notorious racism (which went on until the early 90s) they've never been a team I've been massively fond of.

 

 

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[jasonb]

Good luck Everton, no malice from me. Just drop the 'bigger' club thing, it's futile and a bit immature. Who really cares? I've seen plenty of contributors here stating you are a bigger club, I hope your superiority complex has been appeased?

 

Saints have carved out a nice niche and the model is all about recruitment and organisation. Like any large organisation our strength comes from our planning and strategic development.

 

We are sustainable and living well within our means, just like our owner promised. We've a lot to feel proud about. I'm totally comfortable with our progression and setup. Never in my lifetime have we bloodied the noses of so many 'big clubs'. Long may that continue.

 

Loyalty??? Who cares about loyalty anymore? I've always said, I only want people at the club who want to be there, maximising our potential.

 

Good luck Ronald, thanks for your hard work. Now let's appoint someone with a point to prove and take us a place higher again.

 

These are great times fellow Saints, make no mistake about that.

[buctootim]

Between Cocu and De Boer I would pick De Boer. Cocu did win the league with PSV the last 2 years, but also had a far better squad than de Boer had at Ajax.

 

Mate of mine, who has been a season ticket holder at Ajax for over 10 years, says Frank de Boer likes to promote youth and improves players. He claims on the downside that

De Boer let Ajax play boring football (note: Ajax fans demand they play Barcelona style football), and that due to inexperience he at times makes silly mistakes.

 

Its a risk to employ De Boer, but if we cant get Emery, de Boer would be second choice.

 

If we wound back to 2014 who would you choose - Koeman or de Boer?

[Dr. Kucho]

If we wound back to 2014 who would you choose - Koeman or de Boer?

 

At the end of 2014 De boer had won the title 4 years in a row. However Koeman performed above expectations with Feyenoord, with a smaller and weaker squad.

Before Koeman went to feyenoord he was seen as a poor coach. He had failed at Valencia and Benfica, hadnt set the world alight at Ajax, AZ and Vitesse. Feyenoord saved his

career and showed what he could do as a coach.

 

Looking back and I would have chosen Koeman. De Boer is going to be a very good coach, though Koeman had that experience abroad and had just shown he could get a weak squad

to play good football.

[david in sweden]

I know it sounds stupid because we were relegated and therefore lower than them for about 8 years, but obviously a large chunk of the Premier League era we spent outside it

 

well ......a large chunk sounds a bit excessive....the Prem. is almost 25 years pld and we were out of it for 7 seasons.......not that much.

however, the worse part of the equation is that even if we finished better than Everton, we rarely beat them in that time, and our record at Goodison was terrible.

[Jesse Pingman]

Maybe the dutch boys can help out -who do they rate higher: De Boer or Cocu?

 

De Boer has performed well with Ajax domestically. Especially in his earlier seasons he managed to turn matches around with some great substitutions. 4 titles in 6 years is also pretty good. Although what many do forget is that over time the football got more and more boring with lots of defensive possession (think ManU under van Gaal). He also seemed to lose the ability to change matches with a sub, even going as far as subbing out his prolific striker when 1-1 in a title deciding game. Then he put a normally benched CB striker 10 minutes later when they were still tied (it stayed 1-1 costing them the title this year). There's also his record in europe which in earlier seasons wasn't great, this past season it was just plain terrible. He insisted on playing according to his own philosophy,

 

All in all, he probably should have left earlier, and both parties were happy to split this summer. Though, he certainly knows how to grind out wins and create a consistent squad, and the higher player quality, fresh perspective and less inane transfer comittee might benefit him greatly.

 

Cocu is somewhat the opposite. He started out not that great, needing help and guidance from Hiddink halfway through his first, mediocre season. After that he's grown more into his own. He managed to get the highest point tally ever for the club last season along with the title, this year he managed to win the title again. In addition, this was also the first dutch club in 9 years to reach the CL knock-outs (in which they took Atleti to penalties). He's not bound by a philosophy, he tries to dominate and attack in the league, he adapts when in europe and plays more defensively/counterfootball.

 

Some argue the reason the title race was close between Ajax and PSV this year was Ajax being knocked out of all competitions early, with PSV playing more games, on top of that with important games right after eachother (Ajax immediately following the game that went to penalties in Madrid). PSV does have a great technical manager and they manage to get experienced players, as opposed to Ajax, who have either young or **** players.

 

So in summary

FdeB:

+Managed stability when the club was (and still is frankly) in turmoil

+Managed to get domestic succes with relative mediocrity

~The teams seemed to get worse over time due to terrible transfers (partly on him but on Ajax' technical director moreso)

~Tactically great in first seasons, worsened over time (could go either way abroad)

-Known for kinda boring playstyle, too stubborn to change this

 

Cocu

+Managed domestic and european succes with a good, well balanced squad

+Good record in the so called 'big games'

+Tactically improving, no 'philosophy' so not afraid to (succesfully) adapt to the opponent

-Seems to have trouble motivating his squad for the smaller games, nearly costing a championship

~Mentioned it before, but his squads got better over time due to great transfers (PSV's technical director is pretty good), so he's had more to work with.

~A quiet, calm, introverted man. Some think he needs to be more of a leader at times.

 

 

Boy this turned out a lot longer than I planned.

[Toadhall Saint]

De Boer has performed well with Ajax domestically. Especially in his earlier seasons he managed to turn matches around with some great substitutions. 4 titles in 6 years is also pretty good. Although what many do forget is that over time the football got more and more boring with lots of defensive possession (think ManU under van Gaal). He also seemed to lose the ability to change matches with a sub, even going as far as subbing out his prolific striker when 1-1 in a title deciding game. Then he put a normally benched CB striker 10 minutes later when they were still tied (it stayed 1-1 costing them the title this year). There's also his record in europe which in earlier seasons wasn't great, this past season it was just plain terrible. He insisted on playing according to his own philosophy,

 

All in all, he probably should have left earlier, and both parties were happy to split this summer. Though, he certainly knows how to grind out wins and create a consistent squad, and the higher player quality, fresh perspective and less inane transfer comittee might benefit him greatly.

 

Cocu is somewhat the opposite. He started out not that great, needing help and guidance from Hiddink halfway through his first, mediocre season. After that he's grown more into his own. He managed to get the highest point tally ever for the club last season along with the title, this year he managed to win the title again. In addition, this was also the first dutch club in 9 years to reach the CL knock-outs (in which they took Atleti to penalties). He's not bound by a philosophy, he tries to dominate and attack in the league, he adapts when in europe and plays more defensively/counterfootball.

 

Some argue the reason the title race was close between Ajax and PSV this year was Ajax being knocked out of all competitions early, with PSV playing more games, on top of that with important games right after eachother (Ajax immediately following the game that went to penalties in Madrid). PSV does have a great technical manager and they manage to get experienced players, as opposed to Ajax, who have either young or **** players.

 

So in summary

FdeB:

+Managed stability when the club was (and still is frankly) in turmoil

+Managed to get domestic succes with relative mediocrity

~The teams seemed to get worse over time due to terrible transfers (partly on him but on Ajax' technical director moreso)

~Tactically great in first seasons, worsened over time (could go either way abroad)

-Known for kinda boring playstyle, too stubborn to change this

 

Cocu

+Managed domestic and european succes with a good, well balanced squad

+Good record in the so called 'big games'

+Tactically improving, no 'philosophy' so not afraid to (succesfully) adapt to the opponent

-Seems to have trouble motivating his squad for the smaller games, nearly costing a championship

~Mentioned it before, but his squads got better over time due to great transfers (PSV's technical director is pretty good), so he's had more to work with.

~A quiet, calm, introverted man. Some think he needs to be more of a leader at times.

 

 

Boy this turned out a lot longer than I planned.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis - sounds as if you would go for Cocu over DeBoar - ask said thanks [emoji106]

[silly point]

How about Fatih Terim? The ex Galatasaray and AC Milan coach and the current Turkish coach. Has a ton of European experience and a well respected coach (can attract and retain stars) ... Can take us to the top four

 

 

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