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Europa League 2016/2017 (Died 8/12/2016)

ScepticalStan

By ScepticalStan,
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holepuncture

holepuncture

Posted
Posted

Due to Ajax losing (better coefficient than us, whilst Rostov who beat them have a lower one) we're actually ranked one place lower than we were before the CL playoffs began. But with two upsets already in progress from the EL Playoff first leg that will still leave us in Pot 3.

 

Saints have had an average CL Playoffs campaign, fortunately Claude and the team played a blinder in the EL Playoff, maintaining our Level 3 club status

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Saint Garrett

Saint Garrett

Posted
Posted
Concise - green is qualified, white are games tonight, but what are the red ones?

 

Ajax are confirmed and should be green, but AZ are playing tonight so should be white. Feyenoord are underlined too, what's that about? I assume the guy who did this is dutch? :)

 

Anyway, it's basically my list but without the ties which could go either way. Mine gives the likely winners, except where it can't really be predicted.

 

Think this came from a Feyenoord fan, hence them being underlined, and guessing they're red because it means they can't be drawn against them in the group stages.

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stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
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Going back to the subject of early kickoff times in eastern timezones, there is an interesting addition to the Champions League group draw rules this season, which I guess might also apply to the Europa League draw tomorrow:

 

Russian clubs will be assigned positions one or three in their groups to allow them to play away on Matchday 6, which falls in December.
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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
Think this came from a Feyenoord fan, hence them being underlined, and guessing they're red because it means they can't be drawn against them in the group stages.

 

Thanks, weird what you can deduce about someone's nationality based on a spreadsheet. :D

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
Going back to the subject of early kickoff times in eastern timezones, there is an interesting addition to the Champions League group draw rules this season, which I guess might also apply to the Europa League draw tomorrow:

 

Russian clubs will be assigned positions one or three in their groups to allow them to play away on Matchday 6, which falls in December.

 

Interesting indeed. I'm still mostly hoping we don't get a Russian team at all though. I have a spreadsheet at the ready with the fixtures in already as soon as we find out the position of the teams!

 

Why the hell that wouldn't apply to Astana too given the temperature chart earlier in the thread...

 

...oh, and for anyone thinking they were right up to speed on the EL draw, don't forget that as of 2014 Ukrainian and Russian teams can't be drawn together either - though thanks to the "nation rule" and the insistence on jumping teams from groups A-F to G-L, and the possibility of a team not-yet drawn having to go into a specific one of the remaining groups thus forcing lots of others across to the other half of the draw, there's no easy way of working out who goes where anyway.

 

I can see this place going into meltdown as we get "placed" in the other half of the draw to Man U when the group next to them is full of awesome trips and easy opponents... :D

 

Though having said all that, I still haven't worked out how they keep same-nation teams apart if there's more than two of them, do they pair them based on tv-sexiness or something? There were 4 italian clubs in the draw last season but they were still placing one and then drawing the next one in the same half as the other one... In which case we'll be a floater compared to the Man U-West Ham tv sexy axis...

 

For those unaware, this actually is what having a conversation with me is like... stevegrant will confirm. :D

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Saint-Fred

Saint-Fred

Posted
Posted
Depends what you want really. Wanting Saints to draw theoretically better teams is pretty weird though.

 

My view is that the aim of getting to Europe means we are aiming to play a better standard of opposition. If we need to draw minnows to have hope of progressing then perhaps we don't deserve to be there?

I'd much rather play three top teams, see a better standard of football and better players than see two games against a lower ranked team...taking it to the extreme (impossible I know) but I'd like us to have three teams out of pot one! That's really being in Europe! European nights against Ajax, Inter, Schalke etc is better than against those in pot 4 ( especially West Ham)

Surely It's about testing your team!

Also what if that lowly team beats us? That's much worse than losing to Inter etc?

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stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
Posted
Though having said all that, I still haven't worked out how they keep same-nation teams apart if there's more than two of them, do they pair them based on tv-sexiness or something? There were 4 italian clubs in the draw last season but they were still placing one and then drawing the next one in the same half as the other one... In which case we'll be a floater compared to the Man U-West Ham tv sexy axis...

They pre-draw them, I think, partially based on geography. Fortunately, as there's at least 80 miles between all of the three potential stadia in use in this country, that won't be an issue. It might even be - god forbid - a completely random draw :eek:

 

For those unaware, this actually is what having a conversation with me is like... stevegrant will confirm. :D

It's marginally less tedious in real life. :smug:

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
My view is that the aim of getting to Europe means we are aiming to play a better standard of opposition. If we need to draw minnows to have hope of progressing then perhaps we don't deserve to be there?

I'd much rather play three top teams, see a better standard of football and better players than see two games against a lower ranked team...taking it to the extreme (impossible I know) but I'd like us to have three teams out of pot one! That's really being in Europe! European nights against Ajax, Inter, Schalke etc is better than against those in pot 4 ( especially West Ham)

Surely It's about testing your team!

Also what if that lowly team beats us? That's much worse than losing to Inter etc?

 

For the club it's about making money/winning trophies* (delete depending on level of cynicism, though winning trophies usually = making money anyway).

For fans it's about enjoying the experience, for which winning (inc trophies) is a significant part, but not everything.

We pretty much all had a better time in Arnhem than Herning, but that was as much because of the weather and that Arnhem made an effort to make it a bit of a party, than the result itself.

 

As for "testing the team", why play more difficult matches than you have to? Did people get narky about the FA Cup Final in 2003 because we had an easy run? No they did not. They couldn't care less, and if we'd had to play Sheffield United in the final instead (like the Skates only to play effing Cardiff, FFS) then it wouldn't have reduced the enjoyment of winning the thing one bit. Plus if we progress in the competition we ARE going to play a better standard of opposition anyway, why not save it until it is unavoidable?

 

Plus you can have as much fun going to poky holes as you can at larger grounds, there's even an argument that smaller grounds are better. I absolutely could not care less if we draw a big name or not, and given that there's not much difference in the standard or size of teams in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I don't really think it makes much difference.

 

I also can't say I care much whether we lose to a name people have heard of or some poky no-mark team, after all we did that last year in a ground where we only got 550 tickets, we still had a bloody great time around it.

 

Also, we can't play West Ham even if they get through tonight (or Man U), until the last 16.

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
They pre-draw them, I think, partially based on geography. Fortunately, as there's at least 80 miles between all of the three potential stadia in use in this country, that won't be an issue. It might even be - god forbid - a completely random draw :eek:

 

It's marginally less tedious in real life. :smug:

 

So they pre-draw for pairings (last year they drew "Italy 1" (I think it was Napoli), placed "Italy 2" in the opposite half of the groups, drew 3 (avoiding 1), and placed 4 (avoiding 2). I think. They specifically said that teams from the same nation would be kept apart using "red" and "blue" halves of the draw, which works fine for 2 clubs but not so well for 3 or 4. The halves of the draw thing is specifically about kick off times, because they don't want 3 from one country on tv at the same time and then no-one in the other slot. So they ensure one 6pm and one 8:05pm kick off because the red groups and their blue equivalents have different kick off times.

 

I'm beginning to understand why they don't release the fixtures immediately now.

 

Also, I'm taking that as a compliment. :D

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Saint-Fred

Saint-Fred

Posted
Posted
For the club it's about making money/winning trophies* (delete depending on level of cynicism, though winning trophies usually = making money anyway).

For fans it's about enjoying the experience, for which winning (inc trophies) is a significant part, but not everything.

We pretty much all had a better time in Arnhem than Herning, but that was as much because of the weather and that Arnhem made an effort to make it a bit of a party, than the result itself.

 

As for "testing the team", why play more difficult matches than you have to? Did people get narky about the FA Cup Final in 2003 because we had an easy run? No they did not. They couldn't care less, and if we'd had to play Sheffield United in the final instead (like the Skates only to play effing Cardiff, FFS) then it wouldn't have reduced the enjoyment of winning the thing one bit. Plus if we progress in the competition we ARE going to play a better standard of opposition anyway, why not save it until it is unavoidable?

 

Plus you can have as much fun going to poky holes as you can at larger grounds, there's even an argument that smaller grounds are better. I absolutely could not care less if we draw a big name or not, and given that there's not much difference in the standard or size of teams in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I don't really think it makes much difference.

 

I also can't say I care much whether we lose to a name people have heard of or some poky no-mark team, after all we did that last year in a ground where we only got 550 tickets, we still had a bloody great time around it.

 

Also, we can't play West Ham even if they get through tonight (or Man U), until the last 16.

 

Sorry was joking about West Ham being in pot 4!

All fair points and we will have to agree to differ on our opinions..the only points I'd make is..there is very little money to be made in the Europa league and the chances of us winning it are pretty small.

The chances of us progessing to the next round can't be that great whichever pot we are in, given past European results.

 

 

Finally you sort of made my point for me anyway..you had a better time in Arnham..a "bigger"side, bigger stadium and able to take more of our fans so they laid on better facilities etc...

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Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
Sorry was joking about West Ham being in pot 4!

All fair points and we will have to agree to differ on our opinions..the only points I'd make is..there is very little money to be made in the Europa league and the chances of us winning it are pretty small.

The chances of us progessing to the next round can't be that great whichever pot we are in, given past European results.

 

 

Finally you sort of made my point for me anyway..you had a better time in Arnham..a "bigger"side, bigger stadium and able to take more of our fans so they laid on better facilities etc...

 

It was the city that made an effort, not the club. It was cracking in that square with a bar set up and a DJ playing.

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marc_saint

marc_saint

Posted
Posted

The chances of us progessing to the next round can't be that great whichever pot we are in, given past European results.

.

 

Can't agree with you on that one. A team that came in the top six of the Premier League season should be able to come in the top two of the Europa League groups. We're only going to be in pot 3/4 due to our coefficient being low and that's because we don't have a lot of history in it. Whereas Nicosia have a much higher coefficient. I dont believe that Nicosia are a better side than Saints.

 

And past results also have ne bearing on this seasons.

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The9

The9

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There's also a lot to be said for not drawing clubs in countries where you're getting baton charged for the crime of being an English football supporter, and that's pretty much as likely as the size of the contingent you take to a match - so bigger grounds could just lead to less enjoyment as you are more likely to get herded around.

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The9

The9

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Can't agree with you on that one. A team that came in the top six of the Premier League season should be able to come in the top two of the Europa League groups. We're only going to be in pot 3/4 due to our coefficient being low and that's because we don't have a lot of history in it. Whereas Nicosia have a much higher coefficient. I dont believe that Nicosia are a better side than Saints.

 

And past results also have ne bearing on this seasons.

 

Frankly the side we had on the pitch at the end of last season should be comfortably one of the top 12 teams currently in this competition and easily good enough to win their group - they lost to Midtjylland this time last year nevertheless - but in terms of rankings we're probably nearer this lot than where we actually are.

 

37 Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk Ukr 3.0500 12.9000 11.5666 21.0000 6.9600 55.476

38 Anderlecht Bel 14.0200 9.3000 6.2800 11.9200 12.4800 54.000

39 Rubin Kazan Rus 9.9500 19.9500 13.0832 1.9332 7.3000 52.216

40 Sporting CP Lisbon Por 22.3666 6.3500 1.9832 11.8166 9.1000 51.616

41 CSKA Moscow Rus 17.9500 3.4500 8.0832 9.9332 9.3000 48.716

42 Olympique Marseille Fra 21.1000 6.3500 5.7000 2.1832 11.2166 46.549

43 Viktoria Plzen Cze 10.0500 15.7000 12.6000 1.7750 4.4600 44.585

44 AZ Alkmaar Ned 18.7200 2.3428 17.1832 1.2166 4.1500 43.612

45 Málaga CF Esp 4.1714 25.5428 4.6000 4.0428 4.7856 43.142

46 Sporting Braga Por 12.3666 8.3500 3.4832 1.8166 17.1000 43.116

47 Club Brugge Bel 10.0200 4.3000 2.2800 20.9200 5.4800 43.000

48 FC Salzburg Aut 8.4250 1.4500 18.5600 11.8250 2.2600 42.52

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thefuriousb

thefuriousb

Posted
Posted
Going back to the subject of early kickoff times in eastern timezones, there is an interesting addition to the Champions League group draw rules this season, which I guess might also apply to the Europa League draw tomorrow:

 

If that is applied to all groups again this season then teams allotted 1 or 3 also play the first match away too (at least that was the case from what I can tell last season)

 

Then, either match days 2 & 3 or 4 & 5 are back to back home matches if allotted place 1 or 3 (I.e AHHAHA or AHAHHA)

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Saint-Fred

Saint-Fred

Posted
Posted
There's also a lot to be said for not drawing clubs in countries where you're getting baton charged for the crime of being an English football supporter, and that's pretty much as likely as the size of the contingent you take to a match - so bigger grounds could just lead to less enjoyment as you are more likely to get herded around.

 

Probably best to avoid Europe then!

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

My inner The9 was perplexed that Leicester seemed to get an automatic top seeding for the CL. I thought I remembered that MCFC got lumbered with difficult groups to get out of even when they won the league so expected LCFC to get similar treatment.

 

Have the rules changed or were MCFC just unlucky?

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marc_saint

marc_saint

Posted
Posted
My inner The9 was perplexed that Leicester seemed to get an automatic top seeding for the CL. I thought I remembered that MCFC got lumbered with difficult groups to get out of even when they won the league so expected LCFC to get similar treatment.

 

Have the rules changed or were MCFC just unlucky?

 

Seeding Pot 1 was set aside for league winners

Seeding pots 2, 3 and 4 were then based on the coefficients

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Shroppie

Shroppie

Posted
Posted
My inner The9 was perplexed that Leicester seemed to get an automatic top seeding for the CL. I thought I remembered that MCFC got lumbered with difficult groups to get out of even when they won the league so expected LCFC to get similar treatment.

 

Have the rules changed or were MCFC just unlucky?

If it's bad luck it just got worse, with Barcelona, B Munchengladbach and Celtic. Leicester seem to have done better.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Seeding Pot 1 was set aside for league winners

Seeding pots 2, 3 and 4 were then based on the coefficients

I worked that out - my question is whether this is a new rule or not. I thought MCFC did not get similar treatment when they won the league.

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marc_saint

marc_saint

Posted
Posted
That can't be completely right. Celtic won their league and were Pot 4

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

Not all league winners. Just the 8 highest leagues and obviously they had to come through the qualifiers

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

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stevegrant

stevegrant

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Posted
I worked that out - my question is whether this is a new rule or not. I thought MCFC did not get similar treatment when they won the league.

Yeah, it's a new rule as of last season, hence Arsenal ending up in a group with Bayern last season despite their coefficient still being ludicrously high compared to their actual achievements (this season they'd have been in pot 2 under the old rules as well).

 

It's basically the reigning champions plus the champions of the 7 highest-ranked leagues, or if the reigning champion won their league as well, the champion of the 8th-ranked league would also be in pot one (which was PSV last year as Barcelona were both European and Spanish champions)

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Yeah, it's a new rule as of last season, hence Arsenal ending up in a group with Bayern last season despite their coefficient still being ludicrously high compared to their actual achievements (this season they'd have been in pot 2 under the old rules as well).

 

It's basically the reigning champions plus the champions of the 7 highest-ranked leagues, or if the reigning champion won their league as well, the champion of the 8th-ranked league would also be in pot one (which was PSV last year as Barcelona were both European and Spanish champions)

Cheers Steve - I wouldn't have noticed last season as not something I pay huge amounts of attention to - it's the right thing though. Leicester deserve to be a top seed: they've come through the hardest qualification of all, ie actually winning the league, not the slightly artificial coefficient of the likes of Arsenal as you say.

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hello from outside the cinema. Just had a quick look and everything is as it was, apart from SonderjyskE leading at Sparta Prague which gives us a little more wiggle room in Pot 3.

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
That game makes no difference both teams lower co-efficient than us, pressure staring to tell with you !

 

Ha, actually it's because I just got home and I'm trying to find the stuff I shared this morning on the thread with the wife moaning at me for putting the West Ham game on. ;)

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
Update with all CL Playoff second leg results up to Thursday and all EL and PlayOff Round first leg results below:

 

With 3 teams already ranked below us qualifying into the Group Stages (Nice, Zorya Luhansk, Konyaspor) and 12 teams per pot, but we need 9 other teams with worse coefficients than Saints to put us in Pot 3 rather than Pot 4.

 

2 have come from the

Champions League Play-Off Round

(losers drop into the EL Group stage and are marked (Q))

Dundalk(Q) lost to Legia Warsaw

Celtic beat Hapoel Be'er Sheva(Q)

 

Add the 5 matches in the EL Playoff Round where either team will have a lower coefficient than Saints:

Osmanlıspor beat Midtjylland

West Ham United v Astra (1-1) 0-1 [63 mins]

Red Star Belgrade v Sassoulo (0-3) 1-1 [80 mins]

Brondby lost to Panathinaikos

AIK Gothenburg lost to Qarabag

 

This leaves us needing 2 more results in our favour to get Saints into Pot 3:

 

All of these EL Playoff games which if the team in bold wins will add another team with a coefficient below Saints. We need at most 2 of those to make Pot 3 (and 14 of them for Pot 2 which is extremely unlikely). Red results are against us, Green in our favour.

 

Europa League Play-Off Round First Leg Results

(winners go into the EL Group Stage)

BATE Borisov lost to Astana - leaves us needing one more

Slovan Liberec beat AEK Larnaca

Olympiakos v Arouca (1-0) [60 mins]

PAOK beat Dinamo Tbilisi

Rosenborg lost to Austria Vienna

Saint Etienne v Beitar Jerusalem (2-1) [60 mins]

Genk beat Lokomotiva Zagreb

Rapid Vienna v Trencin (4-0) 0-2 [46 mins]

AZ Alkmaar beat Vojvodina

Maribor v Qabala (1-3) 1-0 [80 mins]

Shkendija v Gent (1-2)

Anderlecht v Slavia Prague (3-0)

Shakhtar Donetsk v Istanbul Basaksehir (2-1)

Sparta Prague v Sonderjysk E (0-0)

Grasshoppers v Fenerbahce (0-3)

Partizani Tirana v Krasnodar (0-4)

Hajduk Split Maccabi Tel-Aviv (1-2)

 

The current total is we have exactly the 4 results we need. So Pot 3 at the moment... just.

 

Meanwhile over in the Champions League PlayOffs, all these teams have higher coefficients than Saints, but the losers of the tie has gone into the Group stages of the Europa League (marked (Q)):

Dinamo Zagreb beat Red Bull Salzburg(Q)

FC Copenhagen beat APOEL Nicosia(Q)

Young Boys Bern (Q) lost to Borussia Monchengladbach

Steaua Bucharest (Q) lost to Manchester City

Ludogorets beat Viktoria Plzen(Q)

Villarreal(Q) lost to Monaco

Porto beat Roma(Q)

 

Anyway, here it is again... Ah, it was Qabala I was thinking of.

Edited by The9
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