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Europa League Thread 2016/7

The9

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The9

The9

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Given that we spent most of the last season planning Europe and finding out information, etc, it seems a bit weird that there's not even a thread about it this year.

 

I assume that's because everyone thinks we're coming 8th and we're not going to make it, but even so...

 

Here are the match dates for next season's Europa League http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2017/competitionformat/

 

Third qualifying round, first leg 28/07/16

Third qualifying round, second leg 04/08/16

Play-off round, first leg 18/08/16

Play-off round, second leg 25/08/16

Group stage, matchday one 15/09/16

Group stage, matchday two 29/09/16

Group stage, matchday three 20/10/16

Group stage, matchday four 03/11/16

Group stage, matchday five 24/11/16

Group stage, matchday six 08/12/16

Round of 32, first leg 16/02/17

Round of 32, second leg 23/02/17

Round of 16, first leg 09/03/17

Round of 16, second leg 16/03/17

Quarter-finals, first leg 13/04/17

Quarter-finals, second leg 20/04/17

Semi-finals, first leg 04/05/17

Semi-finals, second leg 11/05/17

Final (Friends Arena, Stockholm) 24/05/17

 

Some other stuff here about who's qualified so far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_UEFA_Europa_League

 

Mods, you can delete this on Sunday at about 3pm, ok? ;)

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stevegrant

stevegrant

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http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10253604/champions-league-and-europa-league-qualification-for-premier-league-teams-explained

 

 

Seems like the only way the 8th placed team qualifies is if Man City win the CL, Liverpool win the EL and Man Utd win the FA Cup.

Well the first of those is already out.

 

I think, also, that there is a bit of small print in the UEFA qualifying criteria that states that if the winner of the Europa League also finishes in a position that would get them back in that competition, we actually lose a EL slot, which seems **** to me, but that's what the rule implies.

 

Far too many permutations to list, but realistically the only team above us we're actually supporting in any real capacity is Man United in the FA Cup final. Liverpool winning the Europa League is meaningless - we just need them to falter in the league so we can finish above them (or West Ham/Man United, possibly, but that's even more unlikely).

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The9

The9

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Well the first of those is already out.

 

I think, also, that there is a bit of small print in the UEFA qualifying criteria that states that if the winner of the Europa League also finishes in a position that would get them back in that competition, we actually lose a EL slot, which seems **** to me, but that's what the rule implies.

 

Far too many permutations to list, but realistically the only team above us we're actually supporting in any real capacity is Man United in the FA Cup final. Liverpool winning the Europa League is meaningless - we just need them to falter in the league so we can finish above them (or West Ham/Man United, possibly, but that's even more unlikely).

 

Permutations massively reduced last night with City going out. Disagree re: Liverpool winning the EL, that's the only way the EL places could move up not down.

 

There is one EL spot assigned to the top Prem team not finishing in a CL spot*

Man C winning the League Cup gives them an EL spot, unless they qualify for the CL, in which case that spot also goes to a Prem team

Man U winning the FA Cup gives them an EL spot, unless they're in the CL already, in which case that spot also goes to a Prem team

 

If Liverpool win the EL then they go into the CL and if they finish in an EL spot in the League as well, there will be 5 CL places and only 2 for EL*. I believe if Liverpool DON'T finish in an EL spot the EL place remains and they may add a qualifier overall. If they don't win the EL, then it will be the usual 4CL + 3EL as above.

 

So what we want is Man U to win the FA Cup and Liverpool not to win the EL, which suits me.

 

*given that there are 2 EL places to the two cup winners you could argue that the Prem-only EL slot is the one that's lost if Liverpool win the EL, but in practice as Man City won't finish low enough not to qualify at all, the EL places would go to Man City (Lge Cup Winners anyway) and either West Ham/Man U/Saints on League position, with a team losing out altogether if Liverpool won the EL, and Man U won the FA Cup but finished below that team. I have no idea if this is actually the case, because the League Cup place was always considered the lowest (EL 3QR) place and we've never had the League Cup winners go straight into the EL without them qualifying for the CL since they reworked the rules a couple of years ago. It's just best 2 to group stage and other one (Saints last season) into 3QR usually

 

There's no Fair Play place any more, West Ham got the last of those last season. Nor can you make the EL by losing in the FA Cup Final any more, that's how we got into the EL 3Q last season following the rule change from the start of 2014/15.

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

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Having just tried to put this together, there probably are too many permutations still due to Liverpool possibly winning the EL, Man City being able to come 7th and Man U potentially winning the FA Cup and coming anywhere from 3rd to 8th. :)

 

The basic rules are...

If Liverpool don't win the EL it is this:

 

PL1 CL Group

PL2 CL Group

PL3 CL Group

PL4 CL Play-Off

PL5 EL Group

+ FA Cup Winner place EL Group (unless Man U win the FA Cup, in which case this place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already).

+ Lge Cup Winner place EL 3 QR (unless Man City come 7th, which will take some doing now but is still possible, this place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already)

 

If Liverpool do win the EL it is this:

 

PL1 CL Group

PL2 CL Group

PL3 CL Group

PL4 CL Play-Off

Liverpool - EL winner CL Play-Off (unless the CL winner from Atletico/Real Madrid qualifies for CL via La Liga in which case Liverpool go into the CL Group directly).

Plus 2 EL places for the Lge Cup winner (Man City) and FA Cup winner (possibly Man U) unless they've already qualified for CL from their PL position.

I think (but not certain) that the FA Cup winner gets the EL Group stage place, the other 3QR.

If either of those clubs finish in the CL places their place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already)

Edited by The9
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The9

The9

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Ok so I'm not cheering on Liverpool tonight then?

 

Good.

 

My understanding is that it is the only thing that can move the EL qualification places up the League other than Palace winning the FA Cup.

 

When you think about it, it's the equivalent of Palace winning the FA Cup - they qualify directly and bypass the need to finish above us in the League. Except it has the added complexity of UEFA's Access list and the rules for 5 CL qualifiers to consider.

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Saint IQ

Saint IQ

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So basically hoping that Chelsea do us a favour and beat Liverpool or they drop points in the easier fixtures they have left, hope Liverpool get to the final for more distraction and lose, hope Man United beat Palace in the FA Cup final and hope we beat Spurs and Palace in our last two games. Not much to ask for is it! :lol:

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The9

The9

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So basically hoping that Chelsea do us a favour and beat Liverpool or they drop points in the easier fixtures they have left, hope Liverpool get to the final for more distraction and lose, hope Man United beat Palace in the FA Cup final and hope we beat Spurs and Palace in our last two games. Not much to ask for is it! :lol:

 

We get into the EL 3rd Qualifying Round coming 7th with a Man U FA Cup win, and Liverpool not winning the EL. That's not too much to ask. We will need to finish ahead of one of Liverpool or West Ham though.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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We get into the EL 3rd Qualifying Round coming 7th with a Man U FA Cup win, and Liverpool not winning the EL. That's not too much to ask. We will need to finish ahead of one of Liverpool or West Ham though.

If we finish 7th we only need Utd to win the cup (assuming they finish above us) to get into EL. If Liverpool win EL and finish 8th then PL gets 5 Cl + 3 EL. Full details at http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?56310-Europa-League-qualification ;)

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10253604/champions-league-and-europa-league-qualification-for-premier-league-teams-explained

 

 

Seems like the only way the 8th placed team qualifies is if Man City win the CL, Liverpool win the EL and Man Utd win the FA Cup.

They are (like many) wrong about that. 8th could never have qualified for Europe (except if it's Liverpool finishing 8th and winning the EL).

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The9

The9

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If we finish 7th we only need Utd to win the cup (assuming they finish above us) to get into EL. If Liverpool win EL and finish 8th then PL gets 5 Cl + 3 EL. Full details at http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?56310-Europa-League-qualification ;)

 

This is proven to be incorrect by the UEFA clarification here where UEFA Confirm that if both sides had won the Euro Cups 4th place would take a Europa League spot instead of 5th, leaving only the two domestic cup winners (and Man City at the very least would need to come below 7th which they now can't to have not qualified by other means): http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=2215121.html but...

 

...anyway, this thread is about us all saying how nice it'll be to have another Final appearance in Cardiff in May 2017... and how mad it is that we might play in Armenia. :D

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

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It matters if we win them and don't qualify, yeah.

 

Well that's what I'm saying, we need to win both games and hope. If we remain in 8th place then we get nothing, right?

 

Also.... do I want Liverpool to get thrashed tonight, or do I want them to scrape through but still finish below us? If they get through then they may concentrate on the final and ease up on the league. Alternatively if they get knocked out then they may redouble their league efforts in order to qualify for next season.

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Chalkboy

Chalkboy

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Good god. On 5live, suggesting that English fans should respect You'll Never Walk Alone when it is sung at anfield, like foreign fans do.

 

They can suggest it all they like, it'll never happen.

 

 

Oh look Liverpool have scored. Imagine the media if they get to the final. It will be insufferable :scared:

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stockportsaint

stockportsaint

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Good god. On 5live, suggesting that English fans should respect You'll Never Walk Alone when it is sung at anfield, like foreign fans do.

 

It isn't really "sung" though. They play it on the tannoy and *some* home fans sing along. However most of the tourist fans haven't a clue. Never been in the home end but I hear tales of people asking each other what the words are. FFS. distinctly underwhelming atmos at Anfield whenever I go there., definitely getting quieter as the years go by.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Well that's what I'm saying, we need to win both games and hope. If we remain in 8th place then we get nothing, right?

 

Also.... do I want Liverpool to get thrashed tonight, or do I want them to scrape through but still finish below us? If they get through then they may concentrate on the final and ease up on the league. Alternatively if they get knocked out then they may redouble their league efforts in order to qualify for next season.

I think that's very possible. As an example, City surely would've fielded a much stronger team against us if they didn't have the second leg against Real Madrid a few days later. So I am hoping they scrape through (after a tiring 30 minutes of extra time). Besides, Lovren aside, I don't have much against them (now that Brenda's gone). Unlike those north London yobbos.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

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They'll definitely concentrate on winning EL now. The prize is CL and they could only get EL through league place.

 

The possibilities for Saints are complex, but I think the best bet is for them to let the league slip ten lose the final.

 

But I'd actually be pleased for the Ex-Saints if they won it. Byegones are byegones.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

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Badger

Badger

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I think that's very possible. As an example, City surely would've fielded a much stronger team against us if they didn't have the second leg against Real Madrid a few days later. So I am hoping they scrape through (after a tiring 30 minutes of extra time). Besides, Lovren aside, I don't have much against them (now that Brenda's gone). Unlike those north London yobbos.

 

Although Lovren is the main focus of ridicule there, I think many are still smarting over the manner of Nivea Man's departure.

 

And he's just scored a third for them.

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Pamplemousse

Pamplemousse

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Sevilla wear our white, white, black combination we had in 2010-11 (minus the sash), so another reason for us to support them.

 

Hopefully, West Ham will lose all of their remaining games and we can pip them to 6th spot. Although unfortunately I don't think that will happen.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Although Lovren is the main focus of ridicule there, I think many are still smarting over the manner of Nivea Man's departure.

 

And he's just scored a third for them.

Understandable, but for me I see him as someone who gave a number of good years for us (including our rise from the lower divisions). Unlike Lovren, who buggered off after just one season, and whose manner of departure was just as bad, if not worse.

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Saint Charlie

Saint Charlie

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Good god. On 5live, suggesting that English fans should respect You'll Never Walk Alone when it is sung at anfield, like foreign fans do.

When Liverpool play at Anfield the players must enter the pitch a few mins earlier than at any ground surely. Certainly feels like that, there is sometimes a 5min gap between teams emerging and the kickoff being taken.

 

Surely its the refs that make the call on when to lead teams out but seems different at Anfield somehow.

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Picard

Picard

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Ok so I'm not cheering on Liverpool tonight then?

 

Good.

 

There is also the matter of points for the UEFA coefficient. The better Liverpool do the less chance Italy have of taking our third EL place in the coming years.

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Kingsbridge Saint

Kingsbridge Saint

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Here's the route of least resistance:

 

1. Point at Spurs

2. Beat Palace, finish 7th, with distracted Liverpool 8th

3. Seville re-retain Europa League Cup Wed 18th May

4. United beat Palace at Wembley

 

That will do it. Point at Spurs the hardest, but even that might not ultimately prove necessary.

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whelk

whelk

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There is also the matter of points for the UEFA coefficient. The better Liverpool do the less chance Italy have of taking our third EL place in the coming years.

 

We gave gained a fair bit on Italy, our only rivals this season. We can't get near Spain or Germany. Arguably UEFA will redefine it all soon especially as talk of teams not being happy with format of CL (well split of cash) and breakaway tournaments etc. UEFA don't want to be upsetting big clubs further.

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Redslo

Redslo

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Well the first of those is already out.

 

I think, also, that there is a bit of small print in the UEFA qualifying criteria that states that if the winner of the Europa League also finishes in a position that would get them back in that competition, we actually lose a EL slot, which seems **** to me, but that's what the rule implies.

 

Far too many permutations to list, but realistically the only team above us we're actually supporting in any real capacity is Man United in the FA Cup final. Liverpool winning the Europa League is meaningless - we just need them to falter in the league so we can finish above them (or West Ham/Man United, possibly, but that's even more unlikely).

 

I think the idea is that no club which qualifies for Europe through domestic competition will be deprived of its place in Europe because another club wins the Europa League or the Champions League. If Liverpool wins the EL and finishes 7th and we finish 8th, we have not qualified for Europe through domestic competition--Liverpool did. (Assuming Man U wins the FA Cup.) Liverpool just gets jumped up to the CL but that doesn't hurt us.

 

Permutations massively reduced last night with City going out. Disagree re: Liverpool winning the EL, that's the only way the EL places could move up not down.

 

There is one EL spot assigned to the top Prem team not finishing in a CL spot*

Man C winning the League Cup gives them an EL spot, unless they qualify for the CL, in which case that spot also goes to a Prem team

Man U winning the FA Cup gives them an EL spot, unless they're in the CL already, in which case that spot also goes to a Prem team

 

If Liverpool win the EL then they go into the CL and if they finish in an EL spot in the League as well, there will be 5 CL places and only 2 for EL*. I believe if Liverpool DON'T finish in an EL spot the EL place remains and they may add a qualifier overall. If they don't win the EL, then it will be the usual 4CL + 3EL as above.

 

So what we want is Man U to win the FA Cup and Liverpool not to win the EL, which suits me.

 

*given that there are 2 EL places to the two cup winners you could argue that the Prem-only EL slot is the one that's lost if Liverpool win the EL, but in practice as Man City won't finish low enough not to qualify at all, the EL places would go to Man City (Lge Cup Winners anyway) and either West Ham/Man U/Saints on League position, with a team losing out altogether if Liverpool won the EL, and Man U won the FA Cup but finished below that team. I have no idea if this is actually the case, because the League Cup place was always considered the lowest (EL 3QR) place and we've never had the League Cup winners go straight into the EL without them qualifying for the CL since they reworked the rules a couple of years ago. It's just best 2 to group stage and other one (Saints last season) into 3QR usually

 

There's no Fair Play place any more, West Ham got the last of those last season. Nor can you make the EL by losing in the FA Cup Final any more, that's how we got into the EL 3Q last season following the rule change from the start of 2014/15.

 

I disagree. We want Liverpool to win--aside from issues of personal bias. If Liverpool finishes ahead of us they can take a EL spot from us. If they finish behind us, they will not. However, if they get into the Champions League group stage it will improve Englands coefficient in future years which could help Southampton qualify for Europe in the future.

 

Having just tried to put this together, there probably are too many permutations still due to Liverpool possibly winning the EL, Man City being able to come 7th and Man U potentially winning the FA Cup and coming anywhere from 3rd to 8th. :)

 

The basic rules are...

If Liverpool don't win the EL it is this:

 

PL1 CL Group

PL2 CL Group

PL3 CL Group

PL4 CL Play-Off

PL5 EL Group

+ FA Cup Winner place EL Group (unless Man U win the FA Cup, in which case this place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already).

+ Lge Cup Winner place EL 3 QR (unless Man City come 7th, which will take some doing now but is still possible, this place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already)

 

If Liverpool do win the EL it is this:

 

PL1 CL Group

PL2 CL Group

PL3 CL Group

PL4 CL Play-Off

Liverpool - EL winner CL Play-Off (unless the CL winner from Atletico/Real Madrid qualifies for CL via La Liga in which case Liverpool go into the CL Group directly).

Plus 2 EL places for the Lge Cup winner (Man City) and FA Cup winner (possibly Man U) unless they've already qualified for CL from their PL position.

I think (but not certain) that the FA Cup winner gets the EL Group stage place, the other 3QR.

If either of those clubs finish in the CL places their place goes to the next PL team which hasn't qualified already)

 

This has already happened.

 

We get into the EL 3rd Qualifying Round coming 7th with a Man U FA Cup win, and Liverpool not winning the EL. That's not too much to ask. We will need to finish ahead of one of Liverpool or West Ham though.

 

I believe we get into the EL if Man U wins the FA cup and we finish 7th whether or not Liverpool wins the EL.

 

If we finish 7th we only need Utd to win the cup (assuming they finish above us) to get into EL. If Liverpool win EL and finish 8th then PL gets 5 Cl + 3 EL. Full details at http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?56310-Europa-League-qualification ;)

 

Right.

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JRM

JRM

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With Liverpool getting to the final - they will be resting players in the League so they should drop points. I think 7th is quite realistic, then hope united actually turn up for the FA cup final.

 

Liverpool will definitely play a weakened team at West Brom last game of the season with it being just a few days before the final on the 18th , and Chelsea will give them a good game midweek, but can definitely see them beating Watford this weekend. 60 points might just be enough to pip them to 7th spot, especially with our better goal difference.

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The9

The9

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The easiest thing would be for us to finish 6th and forget about all of these permutations.

 

Let's go for 5th. 6th opens up the possibility of getting dropped into the 3rd Qualifying Round again if... oh I can't help myself. :(

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The9

The9

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I think the idea is that no club which qualifies for Europe through domestic competition will be deprived of its place in Europe because another club wins the Europa League or the Champions League. If Liverpool wins the EL and finishes 7th and we finish 8th, we have not qualified for Europe through domestic competition--Liverpool did. (Assuming Man U wins the FA Cup.) Liverpool just gets jumped up to the CL but that doesn't hurt us.

 

I disagree. We want Liverpool to win--aside from issues of personal bias. If Liverpool finishes ahead of us they can take a EL spot from us. If they finish behind us, they will not. However, if they get into the Champions League group stage it will improve Englands coefficient in future years which could help Southampton qualify for Europe in the future.

 

I'm unconvinced having read what UEFA said about this, although their long-awaited "clarification" on 2 English clubs winning the Finals came just in time for that to be impossible, and seems to have replaced the previous information which was clear on what happened if only one of them did.

 

Plus I definitely don't want England's future coefficient and the chance of making it in the future to impact on the here and now of us actually making it this season.

 

I think the clarification example is if we finish 7th and Liverpool 8th but win CL? They don't qualify via another means, and I think that's the only situation their CL place doesn't remove an additional EL spot - because if they come 7th, 6th, 5th then they convert the EL qualification to CL and it doesn't get passed down. In the situation of them coming 8th (and I'm saying that situation only), we might get to keep the 3rd EL spot and get in in 7th.

 

It's not because they finish above us though, it's because in finishing above us they have to finish in an EL qualifying spot - but isn't it also true that if Man U win the FA Cup but finish below West Ham, and City come 6th that Liverpool haven't finished in an EL spot by coming 7th? Which paradoxically means they add an EL spot, meaning they will have qualified for the EL, which means they lose the EL spot according to the rules, which means... I love that bit. :D - EDIT: Actually, if Man City and Man U finish below West Ham, West Ham must be 4th - so no that isn't true.

 

This has already happened.

Cheers, I hadn't checked where Atletico were in La Liga.

 

I believe we get into the EL if Man U wins the FA cup and we finish 7th whether or not Liverpool wins the EL.

And I'm unconvinced due to the questionable wording in the UEFA statement about 5+3.

Edited by The9
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