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Europa League qualification?

Monk

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted (edited)
Ok, let's try to make it a simple as possible, so maybe even you can understand. Sorry, I don't have crayon font, but I'll make it big for you. Suppose the following happens in the following league positions:

 

1. Don't win any cup

2. Don't win any cup

3. Don't win any cup

4. Don't win any cup

5. Don't win any cup

6. Win CL

7. Win EL

8. Win FA Cup

9. Win C1 Cup

 

Now the quiz:

 

1) Who qualifies for CL (either group or qualifying round)?

2) Who qualifies for EL (either group or qualifying round)?

3) BONUS QUESTION: Who doesn't qualify for anything?

 

Take your time.

 

The two cup winners go into the EL league, the Capital One cup winner into the group stage.

 

The top two go into the CL group stage.

 

Third goes into the CL qualifier.

 

Fourth now gets the third group stage slot for the Europa League.

 

The Europa League winner and the CL winner get Champions League spots.

 

We have five reps in the CL and three in the EL.

 

Fifth get nothing in that totally implausible scenario but that is nothing like the scenario on row 4 that you pitifully fail to understand.

Edited by CB Fry
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Turkish

Turkish

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Why? :?

 

That's not the scenario we're in, nor is it a scenario that's remotely likely.

 

But to hopefully shut you up so we can discuss the actual reality:

 

Q1: 1, 2, 6, 7 (group stage), 3 (qualifier)

Q2: 4, 8 (group stage), 5 (qualifier)

Q3: 9

 

What round do the Charity Shield winners enter at?

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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

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Why? :?

 

That's not the scenario we're in, nor is it a scenario that's remotely likely.

 

But to hopefully shut you up so we can discuss the actual reality:

 

Q1: 1, 2, 6, 7 (group stage), 3 (qualifier)

Q2: 4, 8 (group stage), 5 (qualifier)

Q3: 9

 

At the risk of making things needlessly complicated, isn't it 8 and 9 group, 4 qualy and 5 nothing in that scenario?

 

Obviously not relevant to this season but hypothetically speaking.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
At the risk of making things needlessly complicated, isn't it 8 and 9 group, 4 qualy and 5 nothing in that scenario?

 

Obviously not relevant to this season but hypothetically speaking.

That's what I've gone with, don't know why the Capital One cup winners would be stripped of a spot. Basically at the start of the season there is only one EL place allocated to league finish, the cups get the other two.

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stevegrant

stevegrant

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Posted
At the risk of making things needlessly complicated, isn't it 8 and 9 group, 4 qualy and 5 nothing in that scenario?

 

Obviously not relevant to this season but hypothetically speaking.

No.

 

To make it absolutely crystal clear, that grid is wrong. The highest non-CL league position is ranked higher than the second domestic cup winner, so it would be the League Cup winner who miss out in that not-ever-going-to-happen-in-a-month-of-Sundays scenario.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
The two cup winners go into the EL league, the Capital One cup winner into the group stage.

 

The top two go into the CL group stage.

 

Third goes into the CL qualifier.

 

Fourth now gets the third group stage slot for the Europa League.

 

The Europa League winner and the CL winner get Champions League spots.

 

We have five reps in the CL and three in the EL.

 

Fifth get nothing in that totally implausible scenario but that is nothing like the scenario on row 4 that you pitifully fail to understand.

Finally he gets it. That's all I've been saying all along. Wasn't that difficult, was it?

 

And it appears you have been looking a different row 4 than me: it's the one that states "If teams outside top 4 wins UCL and UEL". Just like the scenario I gave, which you pitifully failed to understand.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
No.

 

To make it absolutely crystal clear, that grid is wrong. The highest non-CL league position is ranked higher than the second domestic cup winner, so it would be the League Cup winner who miss out in that not-ever-going-to-happen-in-a-month-of-Sundays scenario.

 

Doesn't fourth place then become the proxy for "the highest non-CL league position", though? It takes the role of fifth in that dopey scenario.

 

If, say, West Brom win the League Cup in March then that's it, surely? They'd be talking about their European tour from then onwards and that's the end of it. I've never known it be dependent on other results.

 

When Wigan and Swansea won the cups that was that. Everton got jack for finishing higher than both of them.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
No.

 

To make it absolutely crystal clear, that grid is wrong. The highest non-CL league position is ranked higher than the second domestic cup winner, so it would be the League Cup winner who miss out in that not-ever-going-to-happen-in-a-month-of-Sundays scenario.

Are you sure? 4th place is the highest placed non-CL league qualifier for EL.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
Doesn't fourth place then become the proxy for "the highest non-CL league position", though? It takes the role of fifth in that dopey scenario.

 

If, say, West Brom win the League Cup in March then that's it, surely? They'd be talking about their European tour from then onwards and that's the end of it. I've never known it be dependent on other results.

 

When Wigan and Swansea won the cups that was that. Everton got jack for finishing higher than both of them.

Good grief, I actually agree with you here!

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Finally he gets it. That's all I've been saying all along. Wasn't that difficult, was it?

 

And it appears you have been looking a different row 4 than me: it's the one that states "If teams outside top 4 wins UCL and UEL". Just like the scenario I gave, which you pitifully failed to understand.

That row 4 is right anyway, so what's your point.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted
That row 4 is right anyway, so what's your point.

:mcinnes:

 

"The row 4 situation implies (a non cup winning) 5th won't qualify for Europe. While this appears to be the strict interpretation of the rules as they are currently written, I have a feeling UEFA didn't anticipate this happening (not for the first time) and would make an exception to let 5th into EL."

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
:mcinnes:

 

"The row 4 situation implies (a non cup winning) 5th won't qualify for Europe. While this appears to be the strict interpretation of the rules as they are currently written, I have a feeling UEFA didn't anticipate this happening (not for the first time) and would make an exception to let 5th into EL."

Seriously, who gives a fu ck?

 

There will never, ever be a situation where both the Europa League winners and the Champions League winners are both so bad domestically that they both finish outside all the other qualification spots.

 

Not relevant to Saints, not relevant to the reality of life on planet earth.

 

You're a loon.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
Seriously, who gives a fu ck?

 

There will never, ever be a situation where both the Europa League winners and the Champions League winners are both so bad domestically that they both finish outside all the other qualification spots.

 

Not relevant to Saints, not relevant to the reality of life on planet earth.

 

You're a loon.

:lol: Here we go again, when beaten by logic, it's the old "it's never going to happen", followed by insults of course.

Why do UEFA mention that possibility explicitly (see The9's post earlier)?

Liverpool (8th) are in the EL final, and City (4th, but just 3 points out of 6th) got to the CL semi-final. So it was hardly a 5000/1 shot (which "never happens").

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SNSUN

SNSUN

Posted
Posted

Apparently LVG won't rest players tomorrow and will name the same team that would have played on Sunday. Shame, I was hoping with the cup final ahead they'd concentrate on that and play the youth tomorrow. While I wouldn't rule Bournemouth out of winning tomorrow (they could get an extra 2 places prize money by winning) it looks unlikely.

 

I'd quite like to have the luxury of cheering Palace on on Saturday knowing we've finished 5th and are in the Group Stages.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
:lol: Here we go again, when beaten by logic, it's the old "it's never going to happen", followed by insults of course.

Why do UEFA mention that possibility explicitly (see The9's post earlier)?

Liverpool (8th) are in the EL final, and City (4th, but just 3 points out of 6th) got to the CL semi-final. So it was hardly a 5000/1 shot (which "never happens").

 

City finished fourth, even if they didn't finish fourth they would have finished fifth, not flippng eighth. And, crucially, they did not win the Champions League. They did win the League Cup though, not "no cups". These are facts that prove my point not yours.

 

Even in your desperate world of might-have-beens then Liverpool were a couple of kicks away from winning the League Cup - infinitely closer than City got to winning the CL.

 

Your scenario will never happen. Check in with me every season for the next fifty years if you like and let's see who has command of logic and which one, well, doesn't.

Edited by CB Fry
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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
Can someone sum it up for me? We have definitely qualified for UEFA Cup, but still have a shot at CL? Obviously Bournemouth need to win, and then what?

We don't have a shot at CL in any scenario - just the difference between Europa Group stage or qualifying like last year.

 

If Palace win the cup and United get a point tonight, we finish sixth and take the third most prestigous Europa spot, gong in to qualifying.

 

Either United losing today or winning the cup on Saturday means we take the second most prestigious spot and go straight into the groups. We need one of those things to happen.

 

Liverpool winning EL final or not makes no difference to us.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

Posted
Posted
Apparently LVG won't rest players tomorrow and will name the same team that would have played on Sunday. Shame, I was hoping with the cup final ahead they'd concentrate on that and play the youth tomorrow. While I wouldn't rule Bournemouth out of winning tomorrow (they could get an extra 2 places prize money by winning) it looks unlikely.

 

I'd quite like to have the luxury of cheering Palace on on Saturday knowing we've finished 5th and are in the Group Stages.

That's annoying. Would be typical of them to scrape a draw tonight then lose on Saturday, meaning we have to qualify.

 

They will be desperate not to have to play qualifying rounds as that would conflict with lucrative pre-season tours.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
That's annoying. Would be typical of them to scrape a draw tonight then lose on Saturday, meaning we have to qualify.

 

They will be desperate not to have to play qualifying rounds as that would conflict with lucrative pre-season tours.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

It is fair on Palace to not give Bournemouth a free hit at the 3 million quid for another place in the league, though.

 

Regardless of the team selected, I think United will struggle for intensity, whereas Cherries will be desperate to win.

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nta786

nta786

Posted
Posted
So in a nutshell I need to be cheering for the Cherries tonight, United on Saturday and a Brucey Bonus of Sevilla tomorrow night yeah???

 

Just the cherries tonight, because if Bournemouth win, regardless of the FA Cup final we will be straight in group stages :)

And definitely Sevilla to win!

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
CB Fry and Dark Munster = that was a masterclass in mongboardery. Take a bow.

 

Cheers. My favourite bit was when I started day-dreaming about West Brom winning the league cup. The very thought of Pulis in his suit at Wembley made me go all funny in the tummy.

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Ice2Eskimos

Ice2Eskimos

Posted
Posted
:lol: Here we go again, when beaten by logic, it's the old "it's never going to happen", followed by insults of course.

Why do UEFA mention that possibility explicitly (see The9's post earlier)?

Liverpool (8th) are in the EL final, and City (4th, but just 3 points out of 6th) got to the CL semi-final. So it was hardly a 5000/1 shot (which "never happens").

 

That's nothing mate.

 

I've already been threatened to have my head kicked in...

 

I've been asked if "I like soup"... (lol)

 

I've been called a "Troll" "c*nt"..."pr*ck" "Fanny" "Fish Fondler" (that one was funny though).

 

."portsmouth Fan"..

 

"special needs"

 

"Bournemouth fan"...

 

"Glasgow Rangers Fan" (a million times)

 

And you're in a tizz over "loon"?..

 

Jesus did weep...I'll swap ya.... :lol:

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted
It's wrong. The first non-Champions League place in the PL is a higher-ranking position than the winner of the second domestic cup competition (i.e. the League Cup), hence it getting an automatic group stage place whereas winning the League Cup only gets you into the qualifying rounds.

 

As an aside, it also requires English clubs to win both European cup competitions while simultaneously not qualifying for those competitions through normal means - pretty unlikely at the best of times, and as we only have one English team in a final, I think it's safe to assume it's not a scenario that anyone needs to worry about any time soon.

 

I fully expect that Southampton will win the EL next year while finishing 8th and Leicester will win the Champions league while finishing 9th. This stuff matters.

 

Look at row 4 again. If it's correct (and I think it is), as I said, in that situation a non cup winning 5th team does NOT qualify for Europe. Do you see 5th place anywhere on row 4? Do you see an FA cup winner in the top 4 mentioned in row 4?

 

How do you manage to misunderstand so many things?

 

The 5th place club in the Premier League will always qualify for Europe. The chart is wrong to the extent it says or implies anything different.

 

 

Ok, let's try to make it a simple as possible, so maybe even you can understand. Sorry, I don't have crayon font, but I'll make it big for you. Suppose the following happens in the following league positions:

 

1. Don't win any cup

2. Don't win any cup

3. Don't win any cup

4. Don't win any cup

5. Don't win any cup

6. Win CL

7. Win EL

8. Win FA Cup

9. Win C1 Cup

 

Now the quiz:

 

1) Who qualifies for CL (either group or qualifying round)?

2) Who qualifies for EL (either group or qualifying round)?

3) BONUS QUESTION: Who doesn't qualify for anything?

 

Take your time.

 

1) CL 1,2,3, 6, 7

2) EL 4, 5, 8, 9

3) 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (and all lowers league clubs as well)

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted
Why? :?

 

That's not the scenario we're in, nor is it a scenario that's remotely likely.

 

But to hopefully shut you up so we can discuss the actual reality:

 

Q1: 1, 2, 6, 7 (group stage), 3 (qualifier)

Q2: 4, 8 (group stage), 5 (qualifier)

Q3: 9

 

 

The two cup winners go into the EL league, the Capital One cup winner into the group stage.

 

The top two go into the CL group stage.

 

Third goes into the CL qualifier.

 

Fourth now gets the third group stage slot for the Europa League.

 

The Europa League winner and the CL winner get Champions League spots.

 

We have five reps in the CL and three in the EL.

 

Fifth get nothing in that totally implausible scenario but that is nothing like the scenario on row 4 that you pitifully fail to understand.

 

I disagree. Fifth qualifies for Europe.

 

I would try to prove it by citing rules, but it is 2:14 am now. If this debate continues, I may go to the rules tomorrow and try to prove this.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted
I disagree. Fifth qualifies for Europe.

 

I would try to prove it by citing rules, but it is 2:14 am now. If this debate continues, I may go to the rules tomorrow and try to prove this.

When you wake up please let us know. It would mean 5 CL + 4 EL. I don't think it's in the rules, but if anyone can find it, it's you. :thumbup:

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waylander

waylander

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Posted
Apparently LVG won't rest players tomorrow and will name the same team that would have played on Sunday. Shame, I was hoping with the cup final ahead they'd concentrate on that and play the youth tomorrow. While I wouldn't rule Bournemouth out of winning tomorrow (they could get an extra 2 places prize money by winning) it looks unlikely.

Their youth have looked better than many of the senior players when they've played them this season.

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Redslo

Redslo

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Posted
When you wake up please let us know. It would mean 5 CL + 4 EL. I don't think it's in the rules, but if anyone can find it, it's you. :thumbup:

 

I analyzed this issue but it ended up being somewhat long for a post here so I put it on my blog under the title:

 

"Pointless European Qualification Analysis"

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/

 

My conclusion is that I was right and all nine clubs in the hypothetical would qualify for Europe.

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Ice2Eskimos

Ice2Eskimos

Posted
Posted
I analyzed this issue but it ended up being somewhat long for a post here so I put it on my blog under the title:

 

"Pointless European Qualification Analysis"

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/

 

My conclusion is that I was right and all nine clubs in the hypothetical would qualify for Europe.

 

Yeah but it's never ever, ever, ever, ever going to happen though.

 

You've just wasted moments of your life you're never going to get back on a scenario that's never..NEVER going to happen.

 

Mind you..you did know that before you did it.

 

Not sure if that makes it even worse. :lol:

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted (edited)
Yeah but it's never ever, ever, ever, ever going to happen though.

 

You've just wasted moments of your life you're never going to get back on a scenario that's never..NEVER going to happen.

 

Mind you..you did know that before you did it.

 

Not sure if that makes it even worse. :lol:

 

I enjoyed the process of researching the rules and writing my blog and knowing that a number of people went to my blog to read it.

 

And in a larger sense, isn't everything we do on this forum also wasting moments of our life that we are never going to get back?

 

And in a larger sense, isn't life nothing but wasting moments of our life that we are never going to get back?

 

And in an even larger sense, isn't

 

BAH I don't have time for this.

Edited by Redslo
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saint-crinny

saint-crinny

Posted
Posted

Right, so now that United have leapfrogged us and we're 6th, we currently need to qualilfy for the Europa?

 

And if United go on to win the FA Cup, we will be in group stages automatically and the qualifying slot for the Europa will go to West Ham in 7th?

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Restark19

Restark19

Posted
Posted
Right, so now that United have leapfrogged us and we're 6th, we currently need to qualilfy for the Europa?

 

And if United go on to win the FA Cup, we will be in group stages automatically and the qualifying slot for the Europa will go to West Ham in 7th?

 

spot on

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
I enjoyed the process of researching the rules and writing my blog and knowing that a number of people went to my blog to read it.

 

And in a larger sense, isn't everything we do on this forum also wasting moments of our life that we are never going to get back?

 

And in a larger sense, isn't life nothing but wasting moments of our life that we are never going to get back?

 

And in an even larger sense, isn't

 

BAH I don't have time for this.

 

My advice is -

 

Be philosophical. Don't think about it.

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saint-crinny

saint-crinny

Posted
Posted
spot on

 

Good.

 

Given that it will be extremely beneficial for us to go straight into group stages (no early pre-season, no chance of c**king up qualifying!), i guess we're all supporting United on Saturday then.

 

Never sits well with me, but needs must

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
Good.

 

Given that it will be extremely beneficial for us to go straight into group stages (no early pre-season, no chance of c**king up qualifying!), i guess we're all supporting United on Saturday then.

 

Never sits well with me, but needs must

 

I know the feeling but if Palace win there would be the consolation of West Ham not getting European football.

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Restark19

Restark19

Posted
Posted (edited)
I've found all the match dates here http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2017/competitionformat/

 

Now can somebody lease explain to me very slowly and clearly what our two potential entry stages are?

 

If United win the FA Cup then its 15th of September (Group Stage, match day one), If Palace win the FA Cup then it's 28th of July (third qualifying round, first leg).

Edited by Restark19
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once_bitterne

once_bitterne

Posted
Posted
I've found all the match dates here http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2017/competitionformat/

 

Now can somebody lease explain to me very slowly and clearly what our two potential entry stages are?

 

If Palace win the Cup we play:

 

[TABLE=width: 623]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Third qualifying round, first leg[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]28/07/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Third qualifying round, second leg[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]04/08/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: TableNoBg]

[TD]Play-off round, first leg[/TD]

[TD]18/08/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: TableNoBg]

[TD]Play-off round, second leg[/TD]

[TD]25/08/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

If Man U win the Cup it's straight to:

 

[TABLE=width: 623]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday one[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]15/09/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday two[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]29/09/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday three[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]20/10/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday four[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]03/11/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday five[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]24/11/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]Group stage, matchday six[/TD]

[TD=class: TableNoBg]08/12/16[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

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