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Europa League qualification?

Monk

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted
Well, I'm glad you found it for the sake of discussion, but I literally can't think of a less reliable source than Talksh111te. However, for once they might be right...

 

Bit more detail:

 

Fourth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City win the Champions League but finish outside the Premier League top four (unless Liverpool finish fourth and win the Europa League)

 

Wrong. Fourth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Champions League (playoff) qualification unless City and Liverpool both win in Europe and both finish below 4th.

 

Fifth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City don't win the Champions League

 

Wrong. Fifth place in the Premier League will definitely provide (at least) Europa League.

 

Sixth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City finish in the Premier League top four

 

Wrong. Sixth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification unless City don't win the CL and finish lower than sixth, along with the winner of the FA Cup also finishing below sixth.

 

Seventh place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City finish in the top five

 

Almost correct! City can also finish sixth for this to be true.

 

Eighth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh in the Premier League AND Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six in the Premier League AND Manchester City qualify for the Champions League (either finishing top four or winning the Champions League itself)

 

Rubbish. Eighth cannot qualify for Europe. They are ignoring that a Europa spot is lost if a teams wins Europe and finishes in a Europa position in the league.

 

Clubs definitely CANNOT qualify for the Europa League by...

Finishing as runners up in the FA Cup final or via the 'Fair Play' league.

 

Yes, they've got that correct.

Read more at http://talksport.com/football/europa-league-and-champions-league-qualification-what-finishing-fourth-fifth-sixth-seventh#y6gOGm42Y10iLrX3.99

You're right, it's talkshite.

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted (edited)
Well, I'm glad you found it for the sake of discussion, but I literally can't think of a less reliable source than Talksh111te. However, for once they might be right...

 

Bit more detail:

 

Fourth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City win the Champions League but finish outside the Premier League top four (unless Liverpool finish fourth and win the Europa League)

 

Fifth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City don't win the Champions League

 

Sixth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester City finish in the Premier League top four

 

Seventh place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City finish in the top five

 

Eighth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...

Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh in the Premier League AND Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six in the Premier League AND Manchester City qualify for the Champions League (either finishing top four or winning the Champions League itself)

 

Clubs definitely CANNOT qualify for the Europa League by...

Finishing as runners up in the FA Cup final or via the 'Fair Play' league.

 

Read more at http://talksport.com/football/europa-league-and-champions-league-qualification-what-finishing-fourth-fifth-sixth-seventh#y6gOGm42Y10iLrX3.99

 

I am not convinced talk sports is right. They certainly chose a complicated way to explain it (while pretending to make it seem simple). As I have said before, I have read the actual rules and they are not particularly clear. However, I am not convinced that an 8th place finish will ever qualify a club for Europe (barring disqualification of a higher placed club). That does not mean that an 8th place club cannot qualify by winning the Champions League or the Europa League, of course.

 

I also think that, after the midweek results, none of this matter to Southampton this season.

 

I just read Dark Munster's comments and I mostly agree with them. My disagreement is rather a form of hypertechnicality. For example, If Manchester City wins the Champions League and finishes fourth, fourth place does not provide entrance into the Champions League in a qualifying round. It technically provides nothing because Manchester City is qualifying directly into the group phase in another way. But aside from points like that Dark Munster does, I believe have things right.

Edited by Redslo
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whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted

Can't some smart kid create something like an online calculator where you just select scenarios - who wins CL and EL and you select the top 8 in league and outputs results. Can't be too difficult and get a few more hits than the women's league fixtures that the Beeb think we may be interested in.

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The9

The9

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You're right, it's talkshite.

 

To be fair, none of the examples that you've given prove what they've said is wrong. The 4th place one is just the exact same situation described differently, they've said how you get into the Europa League from 4th and you've described how you don't get into the Champions League despite finishing 4th, which is the same thing. The only hair-splitting is about the CL Play Off, which you introduced and Talksh11te don't mention at any point.

 

The 5th place description is saying that City winning the CL will mean 5th is a CL place not an EL one, so that's accurate too.

 

Haven't worked through the permutations for City finishing 6th rather than 5th, but I assume that's about them having the League Cup win for Europa qualification and that only passing to someone else if City finish above a league spot which would get them into the EL anyway. Whether that's 5th or 6th... dunno.

 

Re: Eighth - it's still about how you interpret UEFA's wording. It says the exception when an additional place is added is for only one additional team that doesn't qualify via the league but IS in an EL spot, and it says an EL or CL winning team outside the CL qualifying positions will gain an extra place at the expense of the 4th CL league slot if they finish in an EL qualifying spot, but it doesn't clarify what happens if two teams do that in the same season, or if one of the qualifiers is outside the EL spots as well, which is where the ambiguity is.

 

I'm fairly sure there's the possibility of a paradox too, where Liverpool come 7th and win the EL, meaning 5 CL qualifiers: the top 3 PL positions +City as CL winners +Liverpool EL winners, +2 EL. But in doing so, that 5+2 moves Liverpool out of an EL qualification slot in the League, which means that the 5+3 kicks in, which means they're in an EL slot again, which means they lose the extra EL qualifying slot in the league, etc. I guess that depends where City come and if they're top 4 as well as CL winners.

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted
Can't some smart kid create something like an online calculator where you just select scenarios - who wins CL and EL and you select the top 8 in league and outputs results. Can't be too difficult and get a few more hits than the women's league fixtures that the Beeb think we may be interested in.

 

Until the ambiguity about two teams winning european competitions but not making the EL slots in the league is addressed, they don't have all the logic rules to base the model on.

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Lets B Avenue

Lets B Avenue

Posted
Posted
Until the ambiguity about two teams winning european competitions but not making the EL slots in the league is addressed, they don't have all the logic rules to base the model on.

 

Whilst accepting "Wiki" isn't 100% accurate, they were on this last summer.

 

So here is what they say about it.

 

If the Champions League title holders or the Europa League title holders have qualified for the Europa League through domestic performance, their berth in the Europa League is vacated (not replaced by another team from the same association), and cup winners of the highest-ranked associations are moved to a later round accordingly.[

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The9

The9

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Posted
Whilst accepting "Wiki" isn't 100% accurate, they were on this last summer.

 

So here is what they say about it.

 

If the Champions League title holders or the Europa League title holders have qualified for the Europa League through domestic performance, their berth in the Europa League is vacated (not replaced by another team from the same association), and cup winners of the highest-ranked associations are moved to a later round accordingly.[

 

Already posted the UEFA "clarification" in full previously, and that text says "OR", but we're talking about "AND". What if they haven't qualified through domestic performance - that implies the extra place remains, again giving the possibility of a 5+3 for 8 places...

 

...However, seeing as even if that 5+3 situation it's 3 CL+3 EL (+City CL +Liverpool CL both outside the top 6), that still only goes to 6 League places plus one for Man U winning the FA Cup and finishing in a CL place (which would have to be minimum 3rd in the Prem), still only takes the Prem places to 7th. I think that's probably answered it. Maybe.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
To be fair, none of the examples that you've given prove what they've said is wrong. The 4th place one is just the exact same situation described differently, they've said how you get into the Europa League from 4th and you've described how you don't get into the Champions League despite finishing 4th, which is the same thing. The only hair-splitting is about the CL Play Off, which you introduced and Talksh11te don't mention at any point.

 

The 5th place description is saying that City winning the CL will mean 5th is a CL place not an EL one, so that's accurate too.

 

Haven't worked through the permutations for City finishing 6th rather than 5th, but I assume that's about them having the League Cup win for Europa qualification and that only passing to someone else if City finish above a league spot which would get them into the EL anyway. Whether that's 5th or 6th... dunno.

 

Re: Eighth - it's still about how you interpret UEFA's wording. It says the exception when an additional place is added is for only one additional team that doesn't qualify via the league but IS in an EL spot, and it says an EL or CL winning team outside the CL qualifying positions will gain an extra place at the expense of the 4th CL league slot if they finish in an EL qualifying spot, but it doesn't clarify what happens if two teams do that in the same season, or if one of the qualifiers is outside the EL spots as well, which is where the ambiguity is.

 

I'm fairly sure there's the possibility of a paradox too, where Liverpool come 7th and win the EL, meaning 5 CL qualifiers: the top 3 PL positions +City as CL winners +Liverpool EL winners, +2 EL. But in doing so, that 5+2 moves Liverpool out of an EL qualification slot in the League, which means that the 5+3 kicks in, which means they're in an EL slot again, which means they lose the extra EL qualifying slot in the league, etc. I guess that depends where City come and if they're top 4 as well as CL winners.

They do. For example, for the first one "Fourth place in the Premier League will definitely provide Europa League qualification if...Manchester City win the Champions League but finish outside the Premier League top four (unless Liverpool finish fourth and win the Europa League)"

 

No, it's Manchester City winning the Champions League AND Liverpool winning the Europa league, and BOTH finishing outside the Premier League top four. If City alone win in Europe then it doesn't matter where they finish, 4th will be in CL. Basically 5 CL slots are allowed, but not 6.

 

"The 5th place description is saying that City winning the CL will mean 5th is a CL place not an EL one, so that's accurate too."

 

It isn't. City winning the CL doesn't convert 5th into a CL spot (unless it's occupied by City themselves, or Liverpool after winning the EL, which would apply to any other position anyway).

 

I'm not going to go through the others and explain the differences.

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SaintTex

SaintTex

Posted
Posted
This seems useful.

 

http://www.skysports.com/share/10253604

 

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From the article:

 

Those permutations mean a series of knock-on events could see eighth place in the Premier League awarded with a Europa League qualifying spot. That means Chelsea - currently 10th, seven points off eighth-placed Southampton with a game in hand - could still return to European action next season…
Don't you just love the lens that filters these stories.

 

but the takeaway in regards to 8th place is:

 

Eighth:

 

Will qualify for Europa League qualifiers if Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh, and Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City qualify for the Champions League

 

I literally could not take the slobbering and fawning that would occur if Liverpool wins the Europa League and qualifies for CL.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted

Eighth:

 

Will qualify for Europa League qualifiers if Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh, and Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City qualify for the Champions League

 

:mcinnes:

 

Suppose Utd win FA Cup and finish in top 6, City qualify for CL, so no cup winners in EL. So we have

 

1-4 go into CL (let's assume City are in this top 4)

5 - EL (Utd say)

6 - EL (West Ham say)

7 - CL (Liverpool)

8 - Nothing, nada, zilch, diddly squat

 

(If City finish outside top 4 and win CL, then they convert that EL spot to CL, but 4th becomes EL. So again 8th gets nothing).

 

What part of EL/CL winners finishing in an EL spot loses that EL spot don't they understand? In that case it's 5 CL + 2 EL, not 5 CL + 3 EL, dammit!

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Shroppie

Shroppie

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Posted
Eighth:

 

Will qualify for Europa League qualifiers if Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh, and Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City qualify for the Champions League

 

:mcinnes:

 

Suppose Utd win FA Cup and finish in top 6, City qualify for CL, so no cup winners in EL. So we have

 

1-4 go into CL (let's assume City are in this top 4)

5 - EL (Utd say)

6 - EL (West Ham say)

7 - CL (Liverpool)

8 - Nothing, nada, zilch, diddly squat

 

(If City finish outside top 4 and win CL, then they convert that EL spot to CL, but 4th becomes EL. So again 8th gets nothing).

 

What part of EL/CL winners finishing in an EL spot loses that EL spot don't they understand? In that case it's 5 CL + 2 EL, not 5 CL + 3 EL, dammit!

I think you're right and Sky are wrong.

 

Sure I read somewhere that rather than 8th getting an EL place it would go to another country.

 

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

It wouldn't be April without a tortuous thread about perceived ambiguities around European qualification. Usually permutated into oblivion by Redslo and The9.

 

It was far simpler in the old days when the Charity Shield winner and the League Cup runners up got a place but only if the league winners finished in second place.

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Redslo

Redslo

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Posted
It wouldn't be April without a tortuous thread about perceived ambiguities around European qualification. Usually permutated into oblivion by Redslo and The9.

 

It was far simpler in the old days when the Charity Shield winner and the League Cup runners up got a place but only if the league winners finished in second place.

 

Have I been around long enough to be usual??

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John D

John D

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Unless the rules have changed for this season 8th place will NOT qualify if Liverpool win Europa League. Section 3.06 of the Europa League rules for the 2015/2016 season state:

 

The UEFA Europa League titleholder is admitted to the UEFA Champions League, at the entry stage determined by Article 3 of the Regulations of the UEFA Champions League. If the UEFA Europa League titleholder qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through one of its domestic competitions, the number of places to which its association is entitled in the UEFA Europa League is decreased by one.The created vacancy is rebalanced accordingly and priority for the UEFA Europa League is given to the domestic cup winners (in accordance with the entry stage as per the access list).

 

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/69/59/2236959_DOWNLOAD.pdf

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once_bitterne

once_bitterne

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Posted
What does that part actually mean, does anyone know?

 

It means the inbalance created by having 5 CL teams will be balanced by only having 2 EL teams. The priority for these two teams will be to the 2 domestic cup winners. (or in this case only one at present as the League Cup place will already be going to the team finishing 5th in the PL (assuming City finish top 4).

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Saint86

Saint86

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Posted
Eighth:

 

Will qualify for Europa League qualifiers if Liverpool win the Europa League and finish seventh, and Manchester United win the FA Cup and finish in the top six, and Manchester City qualify for the Champions League

 

:mcinnes:

 

Suppose Utd win FA Cup and finish in top 6, City qualify for CL, so no cup winners in EL. So we have

 

1-4 go into CL (let's assume City are in this top 4)

5 - EL (Utd say)

6 - EL (West Ham say)

7 - CL (Liverpool)

8 - Nothing, nada, zilch, diddly squat

 

(If City finish outside top 4 and win CL, then they convert that EL spot to CL, but 4th becomes EL. So again 8th gets nothing).

 

What part of EL/CL winners finishing in an EL spot loses that EL spot don't they understand? In that case it's 5 CL + 2 EL, not 5 CL + 3 EL, dammit!

 

in that scenario, doesn't 8th get Europa League? I was under the impression we have 4 CL berths, and 3 Europa league births. Plust a 5th CL berth if Liverpool win the CL, giving us the extra spot? Or is that totally wrong?

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jayrivers

jayrivers

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Posted
in that scenario, doesn't 8th get Europa League? I was under the impression we have 4 CL berths, and 3 Europa league births. Plust a 5th CL berth if Liverpool win the CL, giving us the extra spot? Or is that totally wrong?

 

That's what I thought, but apprently if we have 5 CL berths, we loose a EL berth.

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jayrivers

jayrivers

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Posted
That's what I thought, but apprently if we have 5 CL berths, we loose a EL berth.

 

But that's only if Liverpool finish 7th, the place is lost.

 

If we finish 7th, we will still get the spot (in the same way as last year - and assume palace dnt win the cup), as that means Liverpool haevn't qualified for the EL through the league. If my understanding is correct!

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Shroppie

Shroppie

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Posted

I think my perfect scenario is:

 

1.Leicester, 2.Spurs, 3. Arsenal, 4. Man U (and win FA Cup), 5. Man City (and win CL), 6. Liverpool (and win EL), 7. Saints.

 

Then we get EL, Liverpool and City cause Man U to be demoted to EL despite finishing top 4. I'd be happy and United fans would be livid.

.

 

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Saint Garrett

Saint Garrett

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Posted
I think my perfect scenario is:

 

1.Leicester, 2.Spurs, 3. Arsenal, 4. Man U (and win FA Cup), 5. Man City (and win CL), 6. Liverpool (and win EL), 7. Saints.

 

Then we get EL, Liverpool and City cause Man U to be demoted to EL despite finishing top 4. I'd be happy and United fans would be livid.

.

 

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Would be nice...can't imagine West Ham not finishing above us though, especially as they're out the cup. If they had beat Man Utd in the cup then maybe they would drop their league form.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

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Posted
Would be nice...can't imagine West Ham not finishing above us though, especially as they're out the cup. If they had beat Man Utd in the cup then maybe they would drop their league form.

Their league form isn't good, but agreed it's unlikely we can overhaul them. But can dream.

 

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Batman

Batman

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Their league form isn't good, but agreed it's unlikely we can overhaul them. But can dream.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

their form isnt good?

in their last 8 league games they have got 16 points, they drew at home to arsenal, beat everton away, drew with chelsea and actually beat spurs. They also lost precisely zero games in that time.

 

in the last 8 games, we won 14 points and lost twice

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whelk

whelk

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Posted
their form isnt good?

in their last 8 league games they have got 16 points, they drew at home to arsenal, beat everton away, drew with chelsea and actually beat spurs. They also lost precisely zero games in that time.

 

in the last 8 games, we won 14 points and lost twice

 

Or you count last 6 games in which case we have gained 3pts more than them

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Ice2Eskimos

Ice2Eskimos

Posted
Posted

The only way we can possibly get Europa is going to be dependent on other teams.

 

Our season ended the moment we drew 1-1 with Everton.

 

If we get Europa this year it won't be because we deserve to be there. There have been too many games this season we should have picked up points from and we didn't.

 

Having Frazer Forster out for most of it and steklenturd in goal hasn't helped tbh.

 

Having said that..I'd love us to get Europa but I doubt it.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

Posted
Posted
their form isnt good?

in their last 8 league games they have got 16 points, they drew at home to arsenal, beat everton away, drew with chelsea and actually beat spurs. They also lost precisely zero games in that time.

 

in the last 8 games, we won 14 points and lost twice

They've only won twice in the last 6.

 

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Chris27687

Chris27687

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Posted

I think we'll beat City this weekend - win or lose against Real tonight they will still rest a lot of players. UTD will probably lose or draw against Leicester and Tottenham will probably lose or draw against Chelsea meaning Tottenham's season is over just in time for us to come to White Hart Lane and beat them and then beat Palace.

 

Not quite sure how West Ham and Liverpool are going to drop points with the easiest run ins.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

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Posted
I think we'll beat City this weekend - win or lose against Real tonight they will still rest a lot of players. UTD will probably lose or draw against Leicester and Tottenham will probably lose or draw against Chelsea meaning Tottenham's season is over just in time for us to come to White Hart Lane and beat them and then beat Palace.

 

Not quite sure how West Ham and Liverpool are going to drop points with the easiest run ins.

A win for us on Sunday will also be important as it could virtually guarantee Spuds at least 3rd, avoiding the play-off round. Then Spuds would have nothing to play for.

 

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aussiesaint20

aussiesaint20

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I think we'll beat City this weekend - win or lose against Real tonight they will still rest a lot of players. UTD will probably lose or draw against Leicester and Tottenham will probably lose or draw against Chelsea meaning Tottenham's season is over just in time for us to come to White Hart Lane and beat them and then beat Palace.

 

Not quite sure how West Ham and Liverpool are going to drop points with the easiest run ins.

 

We play Spurs after Leicester's 2nd last match so they're almost certain to be out of contention for that one.

Also Palace in the last match will have both eyes on their following weekend at Wembley.

9 points is possible when considering all of the above. Can't do much else about West Ham and Liverpool besides hoping they drop points all over the place.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
I think we'll beat City this weekend - win or lose against Real tonight they will still rest a lot of players. UTD will probably lose or draw against Leicester and Tottenham will probably lose or draw against Chelsea meaning Tottenham's season is over just in time for us to come to White Hart Lane and beat them and then beat Palace.

 

Not quite sure how West Ham and Liverpool are going to drop points with the easiest run ins.

Liverpool focusing on the EL will hopefully cost them valuable PL league points.

 

West Ham, um, maybe a virulent flu strain can cause havoc there for a few weeks.

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scotty

scotty

Posted
Posted
Liverpool focusing on the EL will hopefully cost them valuable PL league points.

 

West Ham, um, maybe a virulent flu strain can cause havoc there for a few weeks.

 

I could nip up there and shake a few hands around the training ground, I've got an absolute bastard of a cold at the moment.

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eddie

eddie

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Posted
I could nip up there and shake a few hands around the training ground, I've got an absolute bastard of a cold at the moment.

 

genius idea

 

lean in really close and make sure you breath lots just to be certain

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The9

The9

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Posted
But that's only if Liverpool finish 7th, the place is lost.

 

If we finish 7th, we will still get the spot (in the same way as last year - and assume palace dnt win the cup), as that means Liverpool haevn't qualified for the EL through the league. If my understanding is correct!

 

Unless the rules have changed for this season 8th place will NOT qualify if Liverpool win Europa League. Section 3.06 of the Europa League rules for the 2015/2016 season state:

 

The UEFA Europa League titleholder is admitted to the UEFA Champions League, at the entry stage determined by Article 3 of the Regulations of the UEFA Champions League. If the UEFA Europa League titleholder qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through one of its domestic competitions, the number of places to which its association is entitled in the UEFA Europa League is decreased by one.The created vacancy is rebalanced accordingly and priority for the UEFA Europa League is given to the domestic cup winners (in accordance with the entry stage as per the access list).

 

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/69/59/2236959_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

As has been repeatedly stated, the question is what happens if they DON'T qualify for the Europa League through Premier League position but win the Europa League and qualify for the Champions League. It's clear if they come in a Europa position in the League it becomes 4+1CL and 2EL. And if City win the CL as well it's basically 3+2CL and 2EL - as long as Man City and Liverpool both qualify for the EL (which City already have via the League Cup anyway). But if they don't... UEFA also has a regulation clarification saying only ONE additional EL place can be added - so I guess that gives us the 5+3 situation.

 

Also, Man U winning the FA Cup pushes a place down if they also come top 4...

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
As has been repeatedly stated, the question is what happens if they DON'T qualify for the Europa League through Premier League position but win the Europa League and qualify for the Champions League. It's clear if they come in a Europa position in the League it becomes 4+1CL and 2EL. And if City win the CL as well it's basically 3+2CL and 2EL - as long as Man City and Liverpool both qualify for the EL (which City already have via the League Cup anyway). But if they don't... UEFA also has a regulation clarification saying only ONE additional EL place can be added - so I guess that gives us the 5+3 situation.

 

Also, Man U winning the FA Cup pushes a place down if they also come top 4...

 

Still don't understand how this bonus place is conjured up from.

 

In all the other scenarios UEFA seem to cover the missing third EL place somehow and we stop at two places but in your last scenario they can't and suddenly give it back to us? Why?

 

If Liverpool win the EL and finish, say, ninth then they qualify for the CL. Man City win the CL and finish fifth. The top two qualify too and third gets the CL qualification spot. Then fourth and fifth (or fourth and FA Cup winner) get EL.

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