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Europa League qualification?

Monk

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John Boy Saint

John Boy Saint

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What happens if Liverpool win the Europa League? Where does that place go?

Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

 

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

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mrfahaji

mrfahaji

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Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

 

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

 

No. I believe that if the CL winner finishes outside the top four, then 4th place is gazumped (i.e. if City win CL and finish 5th), but the Europa League winner has a spot reserved for them in the CL, regardless of country, and therefore Liverpool would not take it from another side by winning the Europa. Pretty sure about the Liverpool bit, not 100% on the City bit!

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mrfahaji

mrfahaji

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We'd have to win 5 I think, which is unlikely anytime with those fixtures, most of all this season when we're this inconsistent. Been hoping all season we'd find enough consistency to do something but 8th or 9th has looked likely for a long time. Which is ok normally, just frustrating in the worst quality season ever, and the best opportunity ever to finish above Chelsea, Liverpool or Man utd.

 

The only thing I'd say is that I don't think our side is that great this year. We lost our two (and arguably three) best players and have only adequately replaced one of them (I like Romeu but wouldn't claim him to be on Schneiderlin's level). Throw in Wanyama and Mane (probably our next best players) being wildly inconsistent and Forster being injured for ages, and I'm actually amazed that seventh, equalling last year, is very much achievable (I was going to say 6th, but that's a bit optimistic). Of course it's disappointing that we haven't been better placed to capitalise on a strange PL season, but finishing 8th would still be a decent effort for this squad. Given we have been looking up at 5th/6th for a little while, 9th or 10th would be a bit of a shame, I admit.

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Bewildered

Bewildered

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We have to play 3 teams at or near the bottom (Villa, Sunderland and Palace), two good teams (Man City and Spurs) and one team that is erratic in performance (Everton). The bare minimum we must do is beat Villa, Sunderland and Palace. Three points or more from the other three games and we should do it IMO.

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nta786

nta786

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We have to play 3 teams at or near the bottom (Villa, Sunderland and Palace), two good teams (Man City and Spurs) and one team that is erratic in performance (Everton). The bare minimum we must do is beat Villa, Sunderland and Palace. Three points or more from the other three games and we should do it IMO.

 

We have only got 5 games left, and we have already played Sunderland twice!

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Pamplemousse

Pamplemousse

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If we turn up we'll beat Everton but seeing as they beat us 3-0 they might be up for it so you never know. I'll predict a draw. We should beat Villa. Man City at home, a point would be a good result, Spurs away will probably be a defeat and we should beat Palace.

 

I reckon we'll get 8 points from our final 5 games. Good enough, who knows.

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted (edited)
What happens if Liverpool win the Europa League? Where does that place go?

 

 

Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

 

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

 

No. I believe that if the CL winner finishes outside the top four, then 4th place is gazumped (i.e. if City win CL and finish 5th), but the Europa League winner has a spot reserved for them in the CL, regardless of country, and therefore Liverpool would not take it from another side by winning the Europa. Pretty sure about the Liverpool bit, not 100% on the City bit!

 

 

We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

 

Perhaps not surprisingly, the UEFA rules are perfectly clear about this in a very confusing way.

 

Article 3 of Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2015-18 Cycle cover all the scenarios. Here is a link: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/57/51/2235751_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

I will limit my discussion to possible scenarios for England this year rather that address what could theoretically happen to any club in any league in any year.

 

Manchester City has qualified for the Europa League by winning the league cup. If they win the Champions League, but do not finish in the top four of the League they still qualify for the group stage of the Champions League and England only gets two entries into the Europa League instead of three. I believe that the third round playoff spot is the one lost rather than one of the direct entries into the group stage but I am not sure.

 

Assuming Liverpool does not finish in the top three, if they win the Europa League they will usually qualify for the group stage of the Champions League, but not always. It depends on the Champions League winner's situation. If the Champions League winner would have qualified for the group stage based upon their domestic performance, Liverpool would get their group slot. Otherwise they would start in the playoffs. I do not see a clear statement as to whether England would get 2 or 3 Europa League slots under this scenario. Give the current league position of all the clubs that are still alive in the Champions League this scenario would only come into play if Wolfsburg won the Champions League.

 

For the rest of this discussion assume that both Liverpool and Manchester City win their European competitions:

 

If both would have qualified for the Europa League through their domestic performance, then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League and England only gets two Europa League spots.

 

If Liverpool does not qualify for the Europa League then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League but England gets three Europa League spots. (This seems very strange to me but that is how I read the rules. In fact, if neither European winner qualified for the Europa League, England would get an extra entry into the Europa League for a total of nine entries into Europe--but that can't happen this year.)

 

I should mention that the rules are somewhat different for nations that do not normally have four Champions League representatives.

Edited by Redslo
fixing nit picky details
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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

Correct. And if that happens it would be most amusing if Spurs were to finish 4th. Unfortunately the odds of all of that happening are about 5000-1.

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dronskisaint

dronskisaint

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Perhaps not surprisingly, the UEFA rules are perfectly clear about this in a very confusing way.

 

Article 3 of Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2015-18 Cycle cover all the scenarios. Here is a link: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/57/51/2235751_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

I will limit my discussion to possible scenarios for England this year rather that address what could theoretically happen to any club in any league in any year.

 

Manchester City has qualified for the Europa League by winning the league cup. If they win the Champions League, but do not finish in the top four of the League they still qualify for the group stage of the Champions League and England only gets two entries into the Europa League instead of three. I believe that the third round playoff spot is the one lost rather than one of the direct entries into the group stage but I am not sure.

 

Assuming Liverpool does not finish in the top three, if they win the Europa League they will usually qualify for the group stage of the Champions League, but not always. It depends on the Champions League winner's situation. If the Champions League winner would have qualified for the group stage based upon their domestic performance, Liverpool would get their group slot. Otherwise they would start in the playoffs. I do not see a clear statement as to whether England would get 2 or 3 Europa League slots under this scenario. Give the current league position of all the clubs that are still alive in the Champions League this scenario would only come into play if Wolfsburg won the Champions League.

 

For the rest of this discussion assume that both Liverpool and Manchester City win their European competitions:

 

If both would have qualified for the Europa League through their domestic performance, then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League and England only gets two Europa League spots.

 

If Liverpool does not qualify for the Europa League then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League but England gets three Europa League spots. (This seems very strange to me but that is how I read the rules. In fact, if neither European winner qualified for the Europa League, England would get an extra entry into the Europa League for a total of nine entries into Europe--but that can't happen this year.)

 

I should mention that the rules are somewhat different for nations that do not normally have four Champions League representatives.

 

Thank you for this-

 

A lawyer's perspective to sort out a footballing forum question shows how many permutations are possible!

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Pass the Dutchie

Pass the Dutchie

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I just had a go with the Grimsby Town predictor http://www.thefishy.co.uk/calculator0.php?Competition=1 and we finished 8th (not far behind Liverpool though).

 

Using that I got a top 8 of:

1. Leicester

2. Arsenal

3. Tottenham

4. Man City

5. Man Utd

6. Liverpool

7. West Ham

8. Southampton

 

Which would be a pretty good but at the same time also very disappointing result for us.

 

At the bottom I got:

17. Newcastle

18. Norwich

19. Sunderland

20. Aston Villa

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sammysaint

sammysaint

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Posted

Europa is a comp that players are starting to want to play in and the standard being better, the best way we can qualify for CL will be from winning that comp, next season Chelsea and Liverpool will be much better and back in the top 5/6.

 

I would love 5th or 6 but cant see it happening.

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Saint Charlie

Saint Charlie

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I think we need to win at least 4 of the last 5 and thats tough considering we play at Goodison which never ends well and also face City and Spurs at WHL.

 

If you have a spell like we did in Dec/Jan then its going to be bloody tough to finish in the top 6.

 

Games like Norwich away and Villa at home really stick out as being **** but then again Liverpool battered us for a good part of the recent game and got zero points.

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Redslo

Redslo

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Posted
8th can't qualify.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

 

Consider the following table:

 

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

 

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

 

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

 

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

 

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

 

Consider the following table:

 

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

 

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

 

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

 

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

 

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

Someone gave a link some time ago (I can't be arsed to find it) for the rule that in this instance the PL gets one extra CL spot (Liverpool), but loses a EL spot to another country. So 8th cannot qualify for EL.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted

"It should also be stated," he added, "that an association with, for example, four places in the UEFA Champions League can increase their participation to five places should a club from their association win the UEFA Europa League in the previous season.

 

"If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Champions League via their domestic league, then the association remains with four places in the UEFA Champions League. If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Europa League via their domestic league, it results in five clubs participating in the UEFA Champions League, and two – not three – participating in the UEFA Europa League."

 

http://www.uefa.org/about-uefa/executive-committee/news/newsid=2226990.html

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Redslo

Redslo

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"It should also be stated," he added, "that an association with, for example, four places in the UEFA Champions League can increase their participation to five places should a club from their association win the UEFA Europa League in the previous season.

 

"If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Champions League via their domestic league, then the association remains with four places in the UEFA Champions League. If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Europa League via their domestic league, it results in five clubs participating in the UEFA Champions League, and two – not three – participating in the UEFA Europa League."

 

http://www.uefa.org/about-uefa/executive-committee/news/newsid=2226990.html

 

This makes sense, but I couldn't find it said so clearly in the actual rules. Also, it doesn't say what happens if that club doesn't qualify for Europe at all, but that would still not allow the 8th place club to qualify. It might mean that there are three Europa league spots to go with the five champions league spots.

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Shroppie

Shroppie

Posted
Posted (edited)
I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

 

Consider the following table:

 

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

 

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

 

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

 

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

 

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

I can't find it now but, IIRC, there are rare circumstances in which, rather than 8th getting Europa it goes to best-qualified in another country's league.

 

As stated by others above. Sorry, should have read first.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

Edited by Shroppie
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eddie

eddie

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Posted
looks like we need 61 points for a 50-50 chance for 6th place, which would just happen to also best last season in place and points.

 

so...

 

Everton W

Villa W

City D

Spurs D

Palace W

 

why not dream, right?

 

my guess would be

 

 

Everton D

Villa W

City D

Spurs L

Palace W

 

in my opinion, more than 7 points is what we should expect of our team.

 

- city have de bruyne back and while CL is distraction, they'll finish the season better than people think.

 

- Spurs are unstoppable at the moment.

 

- Villa are just awful, but couldn't beat them at home so nothings guaranteed, but almost cert a win.

 

- Palace haven't had the best end to season, still a good team though some fading stars like bolasie - looked off the pace at the weekend. They've got tough games (away at saints arsenal man u and home to stoke) and I think it'll be a win.

 

- Everton I can't call, Lukaku is nowhere near his form earlier in the season, their last league win was 5 weeks ago against a dire villa side and before that, 2 whole months (stoke ).

 

I think it wouldn't be surprising if we got european football, at the same time, struggling sides or those out of form often seem to bounce back against saints , so no result is guaranteed. I think we have the squad to do anyone on the day, hoping we can finish top 8 would be satisfied with that.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

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Posted
This makes sense, but I couldn't find it said so clearly in the actual rules. Also, it doesn't say what happens if that club doesn't qualify for Europe at all, but that would still not allow the 8th place club to qualify. It might mean that there are three Europa league spots to go with the five champions league spots.

They only state that the EL spots go down from 3 to 2 if an EL winning team has already qualified for EL (and not CL) via their domestic league. This means that if Liverpool win the EL and don't finish in an EL qualifying position, then the PL still keeps 3 EL spots. That makes sense, otherwise a team would be robbed of Europe completely, and probably would kick up a fuss. Yes, a 4th placed team could lose a CL spot under certain circumstances, but they would still get an EL birth.

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Redslo

Redslo

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They only state that the EL spots go down from 3 to 2 if an EL winning team has already qualified for EL (and not CL) via their domestic league. This means that if Liverpool win the EL and don't finish in an EL qualifying position, then the PL still keeps 3 EL spots. That makes sense, otherwise a team would be robbed of Europe completely, and probably would kick up a fuss. Yes, a 4th placed team could lose a CL spot under certain circumstances, but they would still get an EL birth.

 

Good point and it is consistent with one of the weird parts of the rules where if both competition winners are from the same country but do not qualify for Europe through domestic competition, the nation (assuming for this purpose that it is a four champions League entry nation) gets 5 champions league spots and four Europa League spots which would mean that (ignoring cup qualifications) the clubs who finished 1-3 qualify for the Champions League and the clubs who finish 4-7 qualify for Europa. This certainly suggests an intent to ensure that a club that qualifies for Europe through domestic competition will get to play in Europe--albeit under certain circumstances it would drop from the Champions League to the Europa League.

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Saint_Tony

Saint_Tony

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Posted

I just cannot see us finishing anywhere other than 8th. We need to win 4 from 5 to have any chance imo and hope for others to drop points. Our terrible run in november/december killed our season really. Its been a strange one.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

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The9

The9

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Posted
I just cannot see us finishing anywhere other than 8th. We need to win 4 from 5 to have any chance imo and hope for others to drop points. Our terrible run in november/december killed our season really. Its been a strange one.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

We were 6th as recently as 14th February, so I'm not sure how what happened in December guaranteed us 8th.

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Saint Garrett

Saint Garrett

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Posted

Using the predictor, I get....

 

Pos Team P GD Pts

1 Leicester 38 +29 81

2 Tottenham 38 +41 78

3 Man City 38 +34 75

4 Arsenal 38 +26 74

5 West Ham 38 +16 64

6 Man Utd 38 +12 64

7 Liverpool 38 +12 62

8 Southampton 38 +12 57

9 Chelsea 38 +10 55

10 Stoke 38 -5 54

11 Everton 38 +8 47

12 Bournemouth 38 -16 46

13 Swansea 38 -10 44

14 Watford 38 -9 42

15 West Brom 38 -14 42

16 Crystal Palace 38 -15 38

17 Norwich 38 -26 32

18 Sunderland 38 -26 32

19 Newcastle 38 -34 29

20 Aston Villa 38 -45 18

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SaintTex

SaintTex

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Posted
looks like we need 61 points for a 50-50 chance for 6th place, which would just happen to also best last season in place and points.

 

so...

 

Everton W

Villa W

City D

Spurs D

Palace W

 

why not dream, right?

You got to believe City's win yesterday is going to helps us as far as the schedule goes. They are going to have the Champions League Semi matches before and after our match at St. Mary's. Let's hope the first leg is a hard fought draw.

 

City's Schedule

 

26/27-04-2016 CL Semis (1st leg)

01-05-2016 Southampton

03/04-05-2016 CL Semis (2nd leg)

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JRM

JRM

Posted
Posted
Using the predictor, I get....

 

Pos Team P GD Pts

1 Leicester 38 +29 81

2 Tottenham 38 +41 78

3 Man City 38 +34 75

4 Arsenal 38 +26 74

5 West Ham 38 +16 64

6 Man Utd 38 +12 64

7 Liverpool 38 +12 62

8 Southampton 38 +12 57

9 Chelsea 38 +10 55

10 Stoke 38 -5 54

11 Everton 38 +8 47

12 Bournemouth 38 -16 46

13 Swansea 38 -10 44

14 Watford 38 -9 42

15 West Brom 38 -14 42

16 Crystal Palace 38 -15 38

17 Norwich 38 -26 32

18 Sunderland 38 -26 32

19 Newcastle 38 -34 29

20 Aston Villa 38 -45 18

 

I have the same unfortunately, such a shame to have Liverpool just finishing above us once again!

 

I played around with a few scenarios but looking at fixtures of West Ham, Man Utd and Liverpool I just do not see us finishing above any of them.

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