Tax Evasion by Dave's Dad and World Leaders

[hutch]

Maybe I'm just thick, but how can there be a figure for tax avoidance?

[trousers]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/david-cameron-is-guilty-of-bad-spin-and-nothing-more/

[benjii]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/david-cameron-is-guilty-of-bad-spin-and-nothing-more/

 

Excellent article. My thoughts exactly.

[Hockey_saint]

Excellent article. My thoughts exactly.

 

On such a right-wing board? Never! I love the comments below though about Rees-Mogg as the potential next Tory leader. That would be brilliant.

[benjii]

On such a right-wing board? Never! I love the comments below though about Rees-Mogg as the potential next Tory leader. That would be brilliant.

 

Well, would you like to explain what tax Cameron has avoided? The answer has nothing to do with right or left wing.

 

It would just be nice if the people reporting this story, and by extension those reading it, actually knew what they were talking about.

 

As the article says, the nebulous answers given to questions by Cameron were stupid because now he looks dodgy. When, in fact, nothing dodgy at all has gone in.

 

This is nothing like a convoluted avoidance scheme. The isn't funneling UK income through various routes to keep it away from HMRC. This was a capital investment. Tax was paid on the income. Simple.

 

So, exactly as the article says, bad spin. That's it.

[Hockey_saint]

Well, would you like to explain what tax Cameron has avoided? The answer has nothing to do with right or left wing.

 

It would just be nice if the people reporting this story, and by extension those reading it, actually knew what they were talking about.

 

As the article says, the nebulous answers given to questions by Cameron were stupid because now he looks dodgy. When, in fact, nothing dodgy at all has gone in.

 

This is nothing like a convoluted avoidance scheme. The isn't funneling UK income through various routes to keep it away from HMRC. This was a capital investment. Tax was paid on the income. Simple.

 

So, exactly as the article says, bad spin. That's it.

 

Might just have something to do with him being dodgy anyway. It's nice to see spin out of nothing being used against the PM as opposed to his right-wing media continually doing it to the Labour party leader. Either way, it is interesting to see the former press chief for Carlton TV making a balls up in front of the press.

 

I mean, come on a line like "my tax issues are a private family matter" is only going to come back and haunt you if you open accuse so many well known people of tax-dodging.

[TwoPints]

Well, would you like to explain what tax Cameron has avoided? The answer has nothing to do with right or left wing.

 

It would just be nice if the people reporting this story, and by extension those reading it, actually knew what they were talking about.

 

As the article says, the nebulous answers given to questions by Cameron were stupid because now he looks dodgy. When, in fact, nothing dodgy at all has gone in.

 

This is nothing like a convoluted avoidance scheme. The isn't funneling UK income through various routes to keep it away from HMRC. This was a capital investment. Tax was paid on the income. Simple.

 

So, exactly as the article says, bad spin. That's it.

I'm no expert but I think the issue is that by setting up the investment trust in an offshore jurisdiction then the fund itself pays no UK tax on its income or profit. The value of the investment there grows faster as it's not subject to the usual company taxes. Whilst it's not illegal to do this, for a PM who's apparently trying to close loopholes around tax avoidance schemes, by him holding this investment it's certainly hypocritical.

[whelk]

Well, would you like to explain what tax Cameron has avoided? The answer has nothing to do with right or left wing.

 

It would just be nice if the people reporting this story, and by extension those reading it, actually knew what they were talking about.

 

As the article says, the nebulous answers given to questions by Cameron were stupid because now he looks dodgy. When, in fact, nothing dodgy at all has gone in.

 

This is nothing like a convoluted avoidance scheme. The isn't funneling UK income through various routes to keep it away from HMRC. This was a capital investment. Tax was paid on the income. Simple.

 

So, exactly as the article says, bad spin. That's it.

 

Yeah shocking the media are even mentioning it. Leave him alone. Fraser Nelson knows.

That poor Icelandic PM - resigned for no reason whatsoever. Lynch mob mentality that expect people to pay their taxes and have integrity. Idiots

[CB Saint]

I'm no expert but I think the issue is that by setting up the investment trust in an offshore jurisdiction then the fund itself pays no UK tax on its income or profit. The value of the investment there grows faster as it's not subject to the usual company taxes. Whilst it's not illegal to do this, for a PM who's apparently trying to close loopholes around tax avoidance schemes, by him holding this investment it's certainly hypocritical.

 

You Are correct, they don't pay tax in the local country of the offshore fund, however what that means is there is a bigger pot to distribute to the investor who then declares that as income in their home country. If DC had invested in a fund in the US to buy us shares, the US government would have levied 30 odd % tax leaving 30% less income for DC to declare and pay tax on in the UK. So by investing in a legitimate fund in a low tax overseas jurisdiction, DC created a circumstance where he would pay more UK tax, not less.

 

not all offshore investment vehicles are dodgy, however most dodgy investment vehicles are offshore. People need to bear that in mind.

[TwoPints]

You Are correct, they don't pay tax in the local country of the offshore fund, however what that means is there is a bigger pot to distribute to the investor who then declares that as income in their home country. If DC had invested in a fund in the US to buy us shares, the US government would have levied 30 odd % tax leaving 30% less income for DC to declare and pay tax on in the UK. So by investing in a legitimate fund in a low tax overseas jurisdiction, DC created a circumstance where he would pay more UK tax, not less.

 

not all offshore investment vehicles are dodgy, however most dodgy investment vehicles are offshore. People need to bear that in mind.

Not all profit from a fund is distributed as income. Most is retained in the fund which increases the value of it. With clever use of the CGT rules, particularly if the investments were in joint names as these were, you can benefit from tax fee growth on the investment whilst remaining below the CGT limit on which you pay tax.

[Whitey Grandad]

I wouldn't expect you to provide examples, in the same way the person I know in HMRC cannot reveal individual details for fear of breaching the Official Secrets Act.

 

However, if your couple of examples have been pursued aggressively by HMRC there is probably a reason for it. Without knowing the specific details, HMRC will get on somebody's back if they think they have failed to provide correct information, if they persistently fail to provide returns or information, or if they think there is something amiss.

 

And that attitude certainly hasn't changed in the past two years or twenty. The taxman (whether in his current guise of HMRC or previous incarnation of Inland Revenue) has ALWAYS aggressively pursued those they are able to, if they think they are not being up front and honest.

 

I might be wrong, buy you appear to be saying that HMRC are chasing the little man more aggressively as they cannot touch the big boys.

 

That's not a view I would adhere to from my experience, and is a claim usually pursued by those tasting sour grapes as HMRC have been on their case. And, as I say, there is usually a reason for that.

 

If you feel HMRC have changed their attitude in the past two years and are pursuing the little guy more, you have to ask yourself why that might be.

 

The latest figures show a £34bn shortfall in tax collected and what should have been collected. That figure includes both tax evasion and avoidance.

 

Perhaps that eye-watering figure suggests HMRC hasn't changed its attitude enough.

I'd like to follow this further but I'm on limited Internet access. There us definitely a feeling amongst the small business community that HMRC have been more aggressive and less accommodating lately. I know a plumber who had an agreed payment schedule with them that was cancelled 6 months later with an insistence of immediate payment the words being 'you earn more than me, you've got to pay'. The company folded with the loss of 12 jobs. I had a written agreement about private car usage percentage which had been in place for several years. They said 'just because it was agreed some time ago doesn't meant that it still stands. They changed their minds' retrospectively. And it's impossible to go back several years and produce records.

 

They have been given targets to squeeze every drop they can even though they won't admit to it publicly. I don't know who you speak to but 'they would say that wouldn't they?'

[Hockey_saint]

I'd like to follow this further but I'm on limited Internet access. There us definitely a feeling amongst the small business community that HMRC have been more aggressive and less accommodating lately. I know a plumber who had an agreed payment schedule with them that was cancelled 6 months later with an insistence of immediate payment the words being 'you earn more than me, you've got to pay'. The company folded with the loss of 12 jobs. I had a written agreement about private car usage percentage which had been in place for several years. They said 'just because it was agreed some time ago doesn't meant that it still stands. They changed their minds' retrospectively. And it's impossible to go back several years and produce records.

 

They have been given targets to squeeze every drop they can even though they won't admit to it publicly. I don't know who you speak to but 'they would say that wouldn't they?'

 

Shame they couldn't be that tough on Pompey though isn't it.

[aintforever]

I'd like to follow this further but I'm on limited Internet access. There us definitely a feeling amongst the small business community that HMRC have been more aggressive and less accommodating lately. I know a plumber who had an agreed payment schedule with them that was cancelled 6 months later with an insistence of immediate payment the words being 'you earn more than me, you've got to pay'. The company folded with the loss of 12 jobs. I had a written agreement about private car usage percentage which had been in place for several years. They said 'just because it was agreed some time ago doesn't meant that it still stands. They changed their minds' retrospectively. And it's impossible to go back several years and produce records.

 

They have been given targets to squeeze every drop they can even though they won't admit to it publicly. I don't know who you speak to but 'they would say that wouldn't they?'

 

It's a good job they are getting tough, I hope they get tougher. Many of my mates have small businesses and they have a million and one ways of getting out of paying tax, most of them run rings round the tax man.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's a good job they are getting tough, I hope they get tougher. Many of my mates have small businesses and they have a million and one ways of getting out of paying tax, most of them run rings round the tax man.

Most of the ones I know are honest and pay every penny. You must have some strange mates.

[Jonnyboy]

Most of the ones I know are honest and pay every penny. You must have some strange mates.

 

Probably the norm. That's the whole problem with tax avoiders. They say they've earned it but all they're doing is getting am unfair advantage over the honest individuals/companies.

[Hockey_saint]

To be fair, every man of the people has 200k hanging around under the sofa....this could run and run:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/09/david-cameron-questions-gift-mother

[Batman]

£140k a year is criminally underpaying a prime minister.

 

As for inheritance tax avoidance. They all do it: the great big lefty Tony Benn sorted his family out. Not a peep from anyone about that

Edited 10 April, 2016 by Batman

[Hockey_saint]

Again, but then Benn never went to the commons and complained about celebrities avoiding tax being criminally wrong did he?

 

Also, I know what you are saying about the PM's wages (not that he obviously needs it) as in a rather b!tchy way, he fired the MD of the government organisation I work for, for being paid more than him. She was the first to go.

 

 

I love how you put the word "hard left" in a negative context though, equality for all verses "greed is good" ermmm

Edited 10 April, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Batman]

Again, but then Benn never went to the commons and complained about celebrities avoiding tax being criminally wrong did he?

 

Also, I know what you are saying about the PM's wages (not that he obviously needs it) as in a rather b!tchy way, he fired the MD of the government organisation I work for, for being paid more than him. She was the first to go.

 

 

I love how you put the word "hard left" in a negative context though, equality for all verses "greed is good" ermmm

 

so, if cameron never said it was wrong, there would be nothing to discuss regarding inheritance tax?

 

no wonder we have rich people at the top end of politics given how criminally underpaid they are for what they do

[whelk]

Knives are out but don't think general public are as outraged as the media. Politician in hypocrisy shock

 

 

[Batman]

so, has cameron broken the law?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

so, has cameron broken the law?

 

It would seem not.

 

Mind you, he has been convicted on a charge of rank hypocrisy when you remember what he said about Jimmy Carr. But if every politician who was guilty of hypocrisy had to resign then we would not have enough left to fill a minicab let alone Parliment.

[Hockey_saint]

so, has cameron broken the law?

 

Again, does it matter? Blair did something similar at the beginning of his PM-ship, he got away with it because he was new. Cameron is a lame duck PM, he's already said he's going so the knives will be out.

 

Plus, I think this is just a red herring for all the other rather nasty things this government are currently in the middle of. Best of luck to them with that small majority I say.

[Batman]

Again, does it matter? Blair did something similar at the beginning of his PM-ship, he got away with it because he was new. Cameron is a lame duck PM, he's already said he's going so the knives will be out.

 

Plus, I think this is just a red herring for all the other rather nasty things this government are currently in the middle of. Best of luck to them with that small majority I say.

 

if every politician was forced out for being a hypocrite, we would have no one left

[hutch]

Jimmy Carr had his UK employment earnings paid directly "offshore". Any fool knows that's not legal. Cameron doesn't, and never did.

 

The media are hoping that the public are too thick to see the difference.

[Hockey_saint]

Jimmy Carr had his UK employment earnings paid directly "offshore". Any fool knows that's not legal. Cameron doesn't, and never did.

 

The media are hoping that the public are too thick to see the difference.

 

Never! I mean, come on, we've had 5 years of "shirkers and strivers" and "benefit scum" (which, by the way, is mostly untrue) and the general public have swallowed it hook line and sinker from the conservative party's right-wing press...so yes, they probably are too thick to know the difference but it never stopped the media before did it?

 

Plus, it's a technicality but Blairmore holdings was an "invitation to avoid UK tax" and if you couple that with Cameron not knowing what he has and hasn't got....it makes it an incredibly dodgy position for a PM to be in.

Edited 10 April, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Jimmy Carr had his UK employment earnings paid directly "offshore". Any fool knows that's not legal. Cameron doesn't, and never did.

 

The media are hoping that the public are too thick to see the difference.

 

https://youtu.be/SDzwbrNLNc0

[buctootim]

Any fool knows that's not legal. Cameron doesn't, and never did.

 

Bit harsh

[buctootim]

if every politician was forced out for being a hypocrite, we would have no one left

 

You'd have better politics, like Iceland and better politicians. Currently a lot of good people dont stand because they don't want to work with career shysters.

[buctootim]

£140k a year is criminally underpaying a prime minister.

 

Agree. Currently they keep their headline salaries relatively low and then vote themselves all kinds of hidden allowances and keep compromising / compromised outside business / TU deals.

 

Salaries should be about double for MPs / ministers / PM with free Westminster accomodation and ban all outside interests and indirect payments

[TopGun]

£140k a year is criminally underpaying a prime minister.

 

As for inheritance tax avoidance. They all do it: the great big lefty Tony Benn sorted his family out. Not a peep from anyone about that

 

 

£140K per year is underpaying a prime minister. Criminally underpaying? Inaccurate hyperbole.

 

One should also remember that all former prime ministers are in demand after their stint and do very well out of it.

[Batman]

£140K per year is underpaying a prime minister. Criminally underpaying? Inaccurate hyperbole.

 

One should also remember that all former prime ministers are in demand after their stint and do very well out of it.

 

people should be paid for the value of their job. Regardless of how they might live afterwards

[Hockey_saint]

people should be paid for the value of their job. Regardless of how they might live afterwards

 

That's far too simplistic and you know it.

[Batman]

That's far too simplistic and you know it.

then dont expect anything other than rich people like cameron and corbyn being in politics.

very few ordinary people will bother.

 

Edited 10 April, 2016 by Batman

[Hockey_saint]

then dont expect anything other than rich people like cameron and corbyn being in politics.

very few ordinary people will bother.

 

 

Yep, a friend of mine reposted that yesterday....but then again, he is involved in a hedge fund so it's not surprising; I mean, I could send you hundreds of stats about the % of benefit fraud but what would that prove?

 

Besides, what's wrong with rich people being in politics....as long as they have a conscience.

[hutch]

Bit harsh

 

:lol: I'll give you that one.

[Patrick Bateman]

Agree. Currently they keep their headline salaries relatively low and then vote themselves all kinds of hidden allowances and keep compromising / compromised outside business / TU deals.

 

Salaries should be about double for MPs / ministers / PM with free Westminster accommodation and ban all outside interests and indirect payments

 

Exactly this!

[saint si]

Plus, it's a technicality but Blairmore holdings was an "invitation to avoid UK tax" ...

 

Where is that quote from and what is it based on?

[Hockey_saint]

It's a direct quote from Robert Preston actually, the man who recently interviewed him for ITV.

 

I should point out that I see this as all very ironic and it proves that the British press (both sides it would seem because the Daily Mail are publishing this too) is like a snake; it's handy working for you but can turn easily. It's been doing conservative bidding quite a bit lately, what with Working tax credits, the disgusting removal of £30 a week from people already judged too sick to work by their own agency and a great many other abhorrent things so really, people can complain but the head of the DWP has walked away, the chancellor has been cutting worse than ever whilst still having a massive and growing deficit so who's to blame for it all?

 

The man at the top and I hope after the 4 pitiful excuses he's made (surprising because I know there is nothing illegal about what he's done) suggests that he knows the vipers he's using to beat up on the weak and poor in society might very well have turned.

[buctootim]

The man at the top and I hope after the 4 pitiful excuses he's made (surprising because I know there is nothing illegal about what he's done) suggests that he knows the vipers he's using to beat up on the weak and poor in society might very well have turned.

 

They probably want to get out Dave out and to usher their man Osborne in before a credible one nation Tory emerges.

[bridge too far]

They probably want to get out Dave out and to usher their man Osborne in before a credible one nation Tory emerges.

 

I wonder if Osborne will publish HIS tax return and what it will show. Didn't I read recently that Osborne & Little (his family wallpaper business) also used off-shore tax havens?

[Hockey_saint]

They probably want to get out Dave out and to usher their man Osborne in before a credible one nation Tory emerges.

 

That'll be brilliant; the man who thinks it's ok to use money ring fenced for the weakest in society as a cash cow for tax cuts for the richest. I really hope that happens.

 

Pretty sure even Clegg said he was the only conservative he didn't want to do business with "an ingrained, indoctrinated Thatcherite" I think was the term he used.

[bridge too far]

Can I have one too please?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/samantha-cameron-special-adviser-fashion-aide-taxpayer-salary-530000-a6974181.html

[ecuk268]

people should be paid for the value of their job. Regardless of how they might live afterwards

 

Interesting concept. When assessing the value of a job, think about what the impact would be if all of the people doing that job suddenly stopped.

 

Using that as a criteria, among the highest paid should be doctors and nurses, care workers, teachers, bin men, those in the water and power industries, road haulage, public transport workers and shop assistants.

 

At the lower end I'd put so-called "celebrities" (excluding the genuinely talented ones), the advertising industry, betting companies, and many politicians (the Civil Service actually run the country). I suppose we could do without overpaid footballers as well.

[Saint_Ash]

people saying Cameron has done anything wrong or has committed tax avoidance due to the gift from his mother are a bit simple. Any wealthy family would consult accountants with regards to tax planning. Which is exactly what it was.

[buctootim]

people saying Cameron has done anything wrong or has committed tax avoidance due to the gift from his mother are a bit simple. Any wealthy family would consult accountants with regards to tax planning. Which is exactly what it was.

 

Anybody who thinks tax planning is different to tax avoidance is a bit simple.

[Johnny Bognor]

This thread reminds me of the furore last year, over the labour minister who had 1.5m shares in an offshore tax haven. Thats without considering that her family business, turning over £2bn, paid a pittance in corporation tax. I remember the cries of hypocrite, socialist scum etc.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060029/Labour-s-Hodge-1-5m-shares-offshore-tax-haven-Senior-politician-accused-hypocrisy-following-earlier-fierce-criticism-tax-avoidance.html

 

Or did i just dream that... maybe the lefties on here are only concerned with tories on the take, turning a blind eye to their own. It takes hypocrisy to a whole new level...

[buctootim]

This thread reminds me of the furore last year, over the labour minister who had 1.5m shares in an offshore tax haven. Thats without considering that her family business, turning over £2bn, paid a pittance in corporation tax. I remember the cries of hypocrite, socialist scum etc.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060029/Labour-s-Hodge-1-5m-shares-offshore-tax-haven-Senior-politician-accused-hypocrisy-following-earlier-fierce-criticism-tax-avoidance.html

 

Or did i just dream that... maybe the lefties on here are only concerned with tories on the take, turning a blind eye to their own. It takes hypocrisy to a whole new level...

 

 

Were you not able to read the article Johnny? She repatriated the money as soon as she inherited it.

[Batman]

The Guardian, BBC Presenters and the Millibands under the spot light a little bit today. With the whole Tax issue

[Johnny Bognor]

Next story to come up is that Cameron dodged £15,000 in tax by putting his money in a cash ISA.