Tax Evasion by Dave's Dad and World Leaders

[buctootim]

11 million documents from a leading firm of solicitors have been leaked to a German newspaper which has shared them with the Association of Investigative Journalists. The documents show tax evasion on a massive scale by former Prime Ministers, Kings and Presidents. There is BBC programme tomorrow about the involvement of Putin cronies. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-35918844

 

The strange thing is I havent heard a word from the British media about David Cameron's father being involved, even though the foreign press are talking about it. How very very odd.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.712456

 

Edit the Mail now mentioning Ian Cameron after widespread coverage outside UK.

Edited 3 April, 2016 by buctootim

[Jonnyboy]

Evasion or avoidance?

[buctootim]

Evasion or avoidance?

 

Varies case by case. some criminal laundering of money involved too.

[Mr Biscuits]

Evasion or avoidance?

 

From what's being said, I would say pretty much everything you could possibly do with money to hide it and avoid taxation has been done by this company.

 

I was wryly amused by their statement that they have 'never been charged with wrong doing' as if that somehow makes it ok. Mind you this is just another example of the system being used by those who can to avoid tax. Let's be honest - anyone who could would avoid paying them if given the chance.

[whelk]

From what's being said, I would say pretty much everything you could possibly do with money to hide it and avoid taxation has been done by this company.

 

I was wryly amused by their statement that they have 'never been charged with wrong doing' as if that somehow makes it ok. Mind you this is just another example of the system being used by those who can to avoid tax. Let's be honest - anyone who could would avoid paying them if given the chance.

 

JK Rowling and Ricky Gervais both mentioned more than happy to pay their share.

Greedy fckers like Gary Barlow Chris Moyles and Jimmy Carr make me sick.

 

And builders! And Amazon. And Starbucks. And Vodafone

But hey we'd all do it right.

[Mr Biscuits]

JK Rowling and Ricky Gervais both mentioned more than happy to pay their share.

Greedy fckers like Gary Barlow Chris Moyles and Jimmy Carr make me sick.

 

And builders! And Amazon. And Starbucks. And Vodafone

But hey we'd all do it right.

 

So if someone turned round to you and said they could save you the million pound tax bill you are facing you would say no?

[whelk]

So if someone turned round to you and said they could save you the million pound tax bill you are facing you would say no?

 

If I won £80m and someone said I could keep all of it by avoiding £20m of tax I would like to think I'd say no, £60m will do me.

[Johnny Bognor]

 

And builders! And Amazon. And Starbucks. And Vodafone

But hey we'd all do it right.

 

i would be interested to know, who on this forum has never paid 'cash' to a tradesman in order to get a lower bill?

Edited 4 April, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[hypochondriac]

i would be interested to know, who on this forum has never paid 'cash' to a tradesman in order to get a lower bill?

 

Me for one.

[Saint-scooby]

i would be interested to know, who on this forum has never paid 'cash' to a tradesman in order to get a lower bill?

 

Cash is king, we are all at it or have been at it, the people who are involved here just happen to have more money than most, Jersey , IOM , Cayman islands, Switzerland , Panama.

This story will be running for a while

 

ps I know its not all cash

[moonraker]

Cash is king, we are all at it or have been at it, the people who are involved here just happen to have more money than most, Jersey , IOM , Cayman islands, Switzerland , Panama.

This story will be running for a while

 

ps I know its not all cash

 

We are not "all at it", this is the cry of those who are at it or would like to be at it! For me TAX avoidance or evasion is just as if not more reprehesable than benefit fraud. I have never knowingly evaded or avoided any persoanl tax liabilty in my 43 years of full time employment and I have never paid someone I have contracted in cash. The old saying you have to earn it to pay it fits, this is criminal and stems from pure greed. The MP's expenses row is nothing compared to this.

[hypochondriac]

Cash is king, we are all at it or have been at it, the people who are involved here just happen to have more money than most, Jersey , IOM , Cayman islands, Switzerland , Panama.

This story will be running for a while

 

ps I know its not all cash

 

That's rubbish. My business pays tax like most other people and I don't pay in cash to avoid it. Your attitude is why things like the NOTW hacking scandal occurred.

[whelk]

Bet very few of the press jump on this as front page news.

 

And Taxpayers Alliance will have fck all to say.

 

But hey there is a single mum in a hotel - demonise!

[Batman]

2016 has not been kind to the prime minister and now this about his old man

 

ooops

[Jonnyboy]

It's a "private matter" apparently, a bit like the porcine indiscretions.

 

http://s27.postimg.org/jtariepsz/FB_IMG_1459797380623.jpg' alt='FB_IMG_1459797380623.jpg'> screen shot pc[/img]

[saint1977]

That's rubbish. My business pays tax like most other people and I don't pay in cash to avoid it. Your attitude is why things like the NOTW hacking scandal occurred.

 

Too right and same here. Pay proper tax on my salary and SA on my consultancy company and always have done. About time there was global coordinated action to shut every single tax haven internationally. Embarrassing for Cameron that his dad used the same firm to avoid tax as seemingly helped handle the Brinks Mat money.

 

For a number of years - and Labour were just as culpable - tax avoidance almost became fashionable at dinner tables and a way of keeping up with the Joneses. I didn't agree with then and don't know.

 

Whoever (correctly) posted that the UK papers will try and bury this; of course they will, most of them are run by non-doms who are probably amongst the worst offenders whilst they pour their twisted bile down a diminishing readership's throats.

 

For those on the Conservative right who have excused it for years, look at the criminals your corporate friends have been in bed with. No wonder many decent, hard-working Conservatives find the scale of the evasion offensive.

 

Hopefully one outcome is the state funding of UK parties - no more corporates or trade unions buying policies not in the wider public interest.

[Hockey_saint]

 

Nice to see Edward Snowden popping up to make a quick dig too.

[Mr Biscuits]

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think this kind of thing will ever be stopped and while a couple of you seem to be trying to take some sort of moral high ground I'm willing to bet that, like me, you claim for every possible thing to reduce your tax burden as much as possible.

I claim for whatever my accountant and I think we can get away with, not much when you get down to it really but do you know what? I worked for it, it's my bloody money and I don't see why huge lumps of it should be taken away to pay for scumbags to sit in prison with better facilities than my Nan had in her nursing home, or for your average skate to skulk at home with his finger up his arse tugging himself off to Jeremy Kyle. (Note: While being more than happy to pay for projects that help people into work, or improve local communities)

 

But I'm afraid that after 25 years of work I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level and I'm tired of watching my tax being a political plaything, wasted on those who definitely don't deserve it.

[Special K]

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think this kind of thing will ever be stopped and while a couple of you seem to be trying to take some sort of moral high ground I'm willing to bet that, like me, you claim for every possible thing to reduce your tax burden as much as possible.

I claim for whatever my accountant and I think we can get away with, not much when you get down to it really but do you know what? I worked for it, it's my bloody money and I don't see why huge lumps of it should be taken away to pay for scumbags to sit in prison with better facilities than my Nan had in her nursing home, or for your average skate to skulk at home with his finger up his arse tugging himself off to Jeremy Kyle. (Note: While being more than happy to pay for projects that help people into work, or improve local communities)

 

But I'm afraid that after 25 years of work I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level and I'm tired of watching my tax being a political plaything, wasted on those who definitely don't deserve it.

 

But you still want the Schools where your kids go to be the best, roads to be built and repaired, Police, Fire Service and Ambulance to be present every time you need them, the NHS to be free and readily available, the Country defended, your pension to be paid and welfare to help you and your family when you need it.

 

The "argument" of the pikey sat at home on mega benefits is a shabby, pathetic excuse, used by people to justify their own dubious actions. This is not moral high ground, either. To proclaim it is, is another paltry attempt to divert away from the truth and justify a wrong.

 

The way money is spent is another argument entirely and is not an excuse to avoid paying taxes that are due. You know what the tax liabilities are before you do your work. To whinge about it when you have to pay it, is at best, pathetic and at worst, downright f**king stupid.

 

I agree with you when you say that there are a lot of people who avoid tax. Again, not an excuse to pay it, but a f**k of a lot of the problems in this Country would be resolved is less companies and individuals thought the way you do.

[Batman]

the PM is not going to disclose anything about his family and he is entitled to keep it that way

[bridge too far]

the PM is not going to disclose anything about his family and he is entitled to keep it that way

 

Funny that because Corbyn has just been on the news saying he's quite happy to disclose his tax affairs.

[Batman]

Funny that because Corbyn has just been on the news saying he's quite happy to disclose his tax affairs.

 

Dave's family are entitled to privacy. We should respect that, no?

 

They are protected by EU law. Which I am sure you are a champion of

[hypochondriac]

Funny that because Corbyn has just been on the news saying he's quite happy to disclose his tax affairs.

 

Tbf just because Corbyn is happy to does not make it wrong that Cameron doesn't want to release all of his tax affairs.

[FloridaMarlin]

Dave's family are entitled to privacy. We should respect that, no?

 

They are protected by EU law. Which I am sure you are a champion of

 

Would this be the same EU that most of Cameron's party want us to withdraw from?

[Johnny Bognor]

, the NHS to be free

 

The NHS is NOT free. Anyway, carry on.

[Sheaf Saint]

the PM is not going to disclose anything about his family and he is entitled to keep it that way

 

So it's perfectly OK for Cameron to comment publicly on Jimmy Carr's tax affairs and proclaim it as 'morally wrong', but when it comes to his own family's dubious and potentially illegal tax affairs it is a 'private matter'?

 

Is that not just the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy?

Edited 5 April, 2016 by Sheaf Saint

[moonraker]

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think this kind of thing will ever be stopped and while a couple of you seem to be trying to take some sort of moral high ground I'm willing to bet that, like me, you claim for every possible thing to reduce your tax burden as much as possible.

I claim for whatever my accountant and I think we can get away with, not much when you get down to it really but do you know what? I worked for it, it's my bloody money and I don't see why huge lumps of it should be taken away to pay for scumbags to sit in prison with better facilities than my Nan had in her nursing home, or for your average skate to skulk at home with his finger up his arse tugging himself off to Jeremy Kyle. (Note: While being more than happy to pay for projects that help people into work, or improve local communities)

 

But I'm afraid that after 25 years of work I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level and I'm tired of watching my tax being a political plaything, wasted on those who definitely don't deserve it.

 

It’s not your money, it’s your share of the national wealth that you have exchanged for your labour, knowledge and skills, we call that currency and for it to have value it requires trust and honesty. You are only in a position to live and work in an advanced modern society because taxes are paid to pay for all those things you need to function. The policies and details of specific spending may be open to question the principle of tax is not. As to everyone is corruptible you miss the irony of complaining about benefit claimants (not a crime) while essentially condoning corruption (a crime) careful you may be domed to end up in prison with the scumbags, a surprisingly high number of them are fraudsters/corruptor scumbags. It would be interesting to know what market sector you work in, I have spent 42 years working and have certainly witnessed a few 'corrupt' practices thankfully the perpetrators were nearly always caught and duly dealt with .

[Batman]

So it's perfectly OK for Cameron to comment publicly on Jimmy Carr's tax affairs and proclaim it as 'morally wrong', but when it comes to his own family's dubious and potentially illegal tax affairs it is a 'private matter'?

 

Is that not just the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy?

 

Like Carr, dave's family are protected by the EU. Jimmy Carr and everyone else are fully entitled to say the Cameron family are morally wrong

[Jonnyboy]

So it's perfectly OK for Cameron to comment publicly on Jimmy Carr's tax affairs and proclaim it as 'morally wrong', but when it comes to his own family's dubious and potentially illegal tax affairs it is a 'private matter'?

 

Is that not just the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy?

 

It certainly is.

[moonraker]

Like Carr, dave's family are protected by the EU. Jimmy Carr and everyone else are fully entitled to say the Cameron family are morally wrong

 

The problem I have is that if the evidence clearly demonstrates that a crime has been committed are you entitled to the same privacy protection? Your clumsy attempt to bring the EU into this is risible and very sad. Or are you advocating that if we leave we should not have privacy laws.

[Batman]

The problem I have is that if the evidence clearly demonstrates that a crime has been committed are you entitled to the same privacy protection? Your clumsy attempt to bring the EU into this is risible and very sad. Or are you advocating that if we leave we should not have privacy laws.

 

Just pointing out to those who want Cameron to come out explain the actions of his family that he is perfectly entitled not to.

 

If nothing has been done illegally, then they are entitled to privacy.

 

Obviously, if illegal actions has taken place, puts the PM in a bit more of a pickle.

 

No doubt lawyers etc are on damage limitation as the pressure grows

[bridge too far]

Just pointing out to those who want Cameron to come out explain the actions of his family that he is perfectly entitled not to.

 

If nothing has been done illegally, then they are entitled to privacy.

 

Obviously, if illegal actions has taken place, puts the PM in a bit more of a pickle.

 

No doubt lawyers etc are on damage limitation as the pressure grows

 

Like this you mean?

 

[saint1977]

But you still want the Schools where your kids go to be the best, roads to be built and repaired, Police, Fire Service and Ambulance to be present every time you need them, the NHS to be free and readily available, the Country defended, your pension to be paid and welfare to help you and your family when you need it.

 

The "argument" of the pikey sat at home on mega benefits is a shabby, pathetic excuse, used by people to justify their own dubious actions. This is not moral high ground, either. To proclaim it is, is another paltry attempt to divert away from the truth and justify a wrong.

 

The way money is spent is another argument entirely and is not an excuse to avoid paying taxes that are due. You know what the tax liabilities are before you do your work. To whinge about it when you have to pay it, is at best, pathetic and at worst, downright f**king stupid.

 

I agree with you when you say that there are a lot of people who avoid tax. Again, not an excuse to pay it, but a f**k of a lot of the problems in this Country would be resolved is less companies and individuals thought the way you do.

 

Well said. I agree with Johnny B that the NHS isn't free but it would be a lot stronger with a mix of more investment from money reclaimed from tax dodgers and tough reforms of the non-clinical side of the organisation which could be delivered better for less cost. I completely agree that though the tabloid myth of all our taxes going on benefits, prisons and overseas aid (a whole different can of worms) is bunk, there's so many essential services we all rely on to educate, transport and keep ourselves well, including the super wealthy and everyone, regardless of ideology and status, should do their bit.

 

I'd say judging by the public reaction to this and recent cases such as Google/Starbucks/Amazon that this is the majority view. Make political parties funded by lean, realistic public funding so politicians work for US, not corporates or trade unions and these organisations can be stakeholders in the system, not buying off individual key politicians.

[Mr Biscuits]

Tell you what then, get yourselves elected on this exact argument and see how far you get once you meet all the pressure groups at Westminster.

 

System is what it is, this leak will cause some reform but the rich will just find a way round it, pay pressure groups (and bribe politicians) to get loopholes in the legislation, plead special cases etc. You'll never stop it. And, frankly, with the system as it is why shouldn't anyone else use the system to pay less tax? Some of you have all but accused me of breaking the law - I never advocated that and I never said that. My position is that I will use the system to claim for whatever I can get away with - there is no illegality there. And incidentally, I know plenty of people in business who are downright flouting the system and laughing while they do it. but the problem is the system itself, maybe they will get caught but let's be honest there's plenty of people out there who don't and live their entire life that way.

 

So you can be as high and mighty about it as you want - this story will run in the news, some reform will happen, some people may end up in jail (but I doubt it), some people may lose their jobs, but in the long run little will change. The rich will just discover news ways to get around the rules because they can afford to pay people to find or create those ways.

[moonraker]

Tell you what then, get yourselves elected on this exact argument and see how far you get once you meet all the pressure groups at Westminster.

 

System is what it is, this leak will cause some reform but the rich will just find a way round it, pay pressure groups (and bribe politicians) to get loopholes in the legislation, plead special cases etc. You'll never stop it. And, frankly, with the system as it is why shouldn't anyone else use the system to pay less tax? Some of you have all but accused me of breaking the law - I never advocated that and I never said that. My position is that I will use the system to claim for whatever I can get away with - there is no illegality there. And incidentally, I know plenty of people in business who are downright flouting the system and laughing while they do it. but the problem is the system itself, maybe they will get caught but let's be honest there's plenty of people out there who don't and live their entire life that way.

 

So you can be as high and mighty about it as you want - this story will run in the news, some reform will happen, some people may end up in jail (but I doubt it), some people may lose their jobs, but in the long run little will change. The rich will just discover news ways to get around the rules because they can afford to pay people to find or create those ways.

 

I cant disagree with your points, perhaps its the seemingly hopelessness of change you convey and the ''I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level" that elicited the various responses and the fact you single out 2 areas of public spending that in an ideal world not be needed, but as we do not live in an ideal world we have to deal with crime and social welfare issues. I also think your negative blanket labeling of benefit claimants and every prisoner in custody might have added to the need for people to respond.

[Johnny Bognor]

The system definitely needs changing.

 

I was under tax investigation a couple of years ago, where I received a £40 'dividend' from the Co-op. I didn't declare it, because I didn't even know I had been paid it. The tax due on it was £16, but as it turned out after the investigation, it was not a dividend but a reward (much like you receive from reward cards). So it turned out that nothing was due.

 

Bearing in mind my tax bill both personally and from my business, the effort the inland revenue expended in chasing £16 was completely disproportionate and utterly ridiculous. I incurred costs during that investigation and didn't even get a ****ing apology from them. The amount in question was a fraction of the cost of investigation incurred by the Inland Revenue, so everyone loses.. me, the inland revenue, the taxpayer... whilst people evade and avoid tax on an epic scale.

Edited 5 April, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Mr Biscuits]

I cant disagree with your points, perhaps its the seemingly hopelessness of change you convey and the ''I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level" that elicited the various responses and the fact you single out 2 areas of public spending that in an ideal world not be needed, but as we do not live in an ideal world we have to deal with crime and social welfare issues. I also think your negative blanket labeling of benefit claimants and every prisoner in custody might have added to the need for people to respond.

 

 

Well yes, a lot of people need to calm down and concentrate on the argument.

 

As for IR going after the the small infractions - they do this because they can't get the big ones like a certain football club down the road which is, as far as I'm concerned, a travesty but that's the system we have. (In fact that's a perfect example of the pressure groups and 'special case' pleas we see used to exempt those with money from the tax system.

[dronskisaint]

the PM is not going to disclose anything about his family and he is entitled to keep it that way

 

If he is going to assume the moral high ground he has a duty to disclose anything that is relevant to the electorate and the tax payer - if he wants privacy he'd best resign.

[Verbal]

the PM is not going to disclose anything about his family and he is entitled to keep it that way

 

No, he's not. He was asked by Sky News today whether he had benefited personally from the offshore company his dad owned. He did not answer the question. It's reasonable therefore to conclude that he did benefit. For the leader of this country to campaign - apparently - against tax evasion and industrial-scale avoidance, only to have benefited from it in the first place, is some breathtaking hypocrisy.

 

So if he continues to duck the question - and so long as it remains unanswered he'll be asked it again and again - he has no way out.

 

Incidentally, what 'EU privacy law' enables Cameron to hide his tax affairs from the public? Can you name the Act?

 

He is a public servant and if his private affairs (such as tax evasion) infringe on his public life they are not protected by any right to or privilege of secrecy.

[Mr Biscuits]

So if someone asks me if I'm gay and I refuse to answer does that mean I'm gay?

 

It is ridiculous to assume an answer for someone when they do not answer a question.

[Batman]

This is why not a great deal will happen to anyone who matters, in the UK

 

[Hockey_saint]

It is funny when the same prime minister who led essentially a witch hunt against Carr now appears to think when he does it, it's a "private family matter" what a hypocrite.

[Sheaf Saint]

So, quite unsurprisingly, the BBC news, or at least the snippet of it I heard on the radio earlier, is glossing over this completely (though of course that has nothing to do with the fact that the head of BBC news is one of George Osbourne's best mates - no sir, not at all!), and is repeating Cameron's claim that this government has taken more steps to address the issue of corporate tax avoidance/evasion than most other countries.

 

I don't profess to be an expert on these matters and I wouldn't know where to look for the information myself, so can anybody summarise exactly what steps they have actually taken? I ask because it all sounds like just another transparent attempt by the Tories to make the public believe the exact opposite of the truth.

Edited 5 April, 2016 by Sheaf Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

So, quite unsurprisingly, the BBC news, or at least the snippet of it I heard on the radio earlier, is glossing over this completely (though of course that has nothing to do with the fact that the head of BBC news is one of George Osbourne's best mates - no sir, not at all!), and is repeating Cameron's claim that this government has taken more steps to address the issue of corporate tax avoidance/evasion than most other countries.

 

I don't profess to be an expert on these matters and I wouldn't know where to look for the information myself, so can anybody summarise exactly what steps they have actually taken? I ask because it all sounds like just another transparent attempt by the Tories to make the public believe the exact opposite of the truth.

 

It's very difficult to stop these large multinationals from doing it through transfer pricing or a number of other measures and it needs international cooperation which the EU has been working on for some time.

 

We're all still waiting for the budget details but I believe there was something in there about restricting allowances against debt interest payments.

[TwoPints]

This is why not a great deal will happen to anyone who matters, in the UK

 

We've only got to about a 3 on the Societal Overview of Unilateral Reactions Scale whereas the Icelanders have gone straight for the full backlash with a 12.

[Sheaf Saint]

It gets worse...

 

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/05/revealed-british-taxpayers-paying-super-rich-elite-dodge-taxes/

 

The Panama papers have implicated a division of Coutts which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of RBS as being one of the worst offenders for assisting its clients in setting up off-shore shell companies. And as RBS is 73% owned by the taxpayer after its £45bn bailout, this is a double insult because it means our own taxes are being used to finance the deliberate withholding of revenue to HMRC.

[Johnny Bognor]

So, quite unsurprisingly, the BBC news, or at least the snippet of it I heard on the radio earlier, is glossing over this completely (though of course that has nothing to do with the fact that the head of BBC news is one of George Osbourne's best mates - no sir, not at all!), and is repeating Cameron's claim that this government has taken more steps to address the issue of corporate tax avoidance/evasion than most other countries.

 

I don't profess to be an expert on these matters and I wouldn't know where to look for the information myself, so can anybody summarise exactly what steps they have actually taken? I ask because it all sounds like just another transparent attempt by the Tories to make the public believe the exact opposite of the truth.

 

Bearer bonds or shares are one of the main vehicles for hiding the identity of people who have money in shell companies in the tax havens.

 

the tories banned the use if these in the uk last year, as not only are they used for tax evasion, they are used by terrorist groups, criminals, people of influence and anyone who wants to hide serious wonga

[aintforever]

So if someone asks me if I'm gay and I refuse to answer does that mean I'm gay?

 

It is ridiculous to assume an answer for someone when they do not answer a question.

 

It's not though is it, like if someone asks you did you **** a pig. If you didn't **** a pig you would say " I didnt **** a pig".

 

If you did, and knew you were not allowed to lie you wouldn't answer the question.

[Batman]

So much for Corbyn of bringing in a new era politics

 

He has been all over the score board for this one

 

Also, questions now being asked about the company that owns the guardian and also, money tied to the UNITE Union with regards to tax etc

Edited 5 April, 2016 by Batman

[moonraker]

It gets worse...

 

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/05/revealed-british-taxpayers-paying-super-rich-elite-dodge-taxes/

 

The Panama papers have implicated a division of Coutts which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of RBS as being one of the worst offenders for assisting its clients in setting up off-shore shell companies. And as RBS is 73% owned by the taxpayer after its £45bn bailout, this is a double insult because it means our own taxes are being used to finance the deliberate withholding of revenue to HMRC.

 

Hardly a surprise that the rich people's bank are implicated, I am not detective but would have thought it was a good place to start.