Saint Charlie Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Sky mentioned we have made (I think) 81 changes to our PL lineup across the games this season. Makes it the second or third most in the league. Whats everyone's opinions on that? Would we be any better with some more consistency of selection or doesn't it matter? Potential arguments: - Shows we have a strong squad and can make changes without affecting the quality of the team? - Shows we have lots of similar quality players who have dips and spikes in form without being nailed on starters? The likes of Cedric, Romeu, Clasie, Tadic, Martina etc spring to mind. - Shows Koeman likes varying the side depending on who we are playing? We know this is the case and does mean some changes are inevitable when switching systems. Certainly don't think we or Koeman really knows the "first choice" XI which isnt necessarily a problem, but is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Everyone's ideal is a settled XI which produces performances every week, but in the absence of that I'm happy to have a deep and versatile squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 bit of everything The biggest contributing factor is the bang average summer window. Clasie, Romeu, Cedric, Martina have utterly failed to nail down a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 bit of everything The biggest contributing factor is the bang average summer window. Clasie, Romeu, Cedric, Martina have utterly failed to nail down a place. Clasie has started practically every game he's been available, and Romeu was knowingly signed as back-up. The only causes for concern are Juanmi and Cedric. You've also failed to mention Virgil van Dijk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Clasie has started practically every game he's been available, and Romeu was knowingly signed as back-up. The only causes for concern are Juanmi and Cedric. You've also failed to mention Virgil van Dijk. I never mentioned VvD as he has clearly nailed down a place and been an absolute beast of a signing clasie struggles to play twice in a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 bit of everything The biggest contributing factor is the bang average summer window. Clasie, Romeu, Cedric, Martina have utterly failed to nail down a place. Bit hard to nail down a place when you get dropped even after a good performance. ie Romeu v Liverpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Bit hard to nail down a place when you get dropped even after a good performance. ie Romeu v Liverpool fair point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Koeman is clearly a manager who likes to vary his team and formation to the opposition as such he picks the players on a game by game basis to meet what he is trying to achieve. Other mangers like to pick a settled eleven I guess their are good arguments for both styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwsaint Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Wanyama today was a mistake. He doesn't pass quickly enough. Once Leicester get back and organised they are very difficult to break down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 In previous seasons we've lamented the lack of depth in the squad - but the corollary to increased squad strength is that professional footballers will expect to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Wanyama today was a mistake. He doesn't pass quickly enough. Once Leicester get back and organised they are very difficult to break down He is still our best centre mid though. He wins duels the others don't and we miss his physicality when he doesn't play. That said, I'm not sure the balance of him and Clasie works, both are quite immobile and don't cover lots of ground and neither really moves with the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Martini Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Koeman is clearly a manager who likes to vary his team and formation to the opposition as such he picks the players on a game by game basis to meet what he is trying to achieve. Other mangers like to pick a settled eleven I guess their are good arguments for both styles. This. Koeman has always been a bit of a tinkerman. It's his strength since he can adapt his team tactically but at the same time a weakness since his teams never really settle. It was the same when he was at Ajax and PSV (less so at Feyenoord but that was also because of squad depth). It was one if the reasons he never really got the best out of a young Zlatan Ibrahimovic at Ajax. Some players thrive in these circumstances others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 He is still our best centre mid though. He wins duels the others don't and we miss his physicality when he doesn't play. That said, I'm not sure the balance of him and Clasie works, both are quite immobile and don't cover lots of ground and neither really moves with the ball. He seemed to go off the boil today once he had been booked. Maybe he was scared stiff of picking up another yellow and being sent off for a fourth time this season and all the fall outside the club if that happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 81 changes ? ...doesn't surprise me in the slightest. 4 goalkeepers, 3 right backs. at least half a dozen midfielders. Suspensions: Fonte , Mane twice and Wanyama 3 times. Since start of season, we've had injuries to; Clasie. Mane, Targett, Long, Cedric, Rodriguez, Fonte, Cedric again, Stekelenburg, Cedric (a third time), Pelle again, Bertrand, Steven Davis, Long again and Austin, and Targett again today. Long didn't play today due to an international injury. and they wonder why we've had so many changes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Every team has injuries and suspensions. We have had relatively few injuries I would say, so still a far higher amount of changes week to week than most sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 I wonder just how bad Pelle has to be to get dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 I wonder just how bad Pelle has to be to get dropped You'd drop a striker who's scored 3 and assisted 2 goals in the previous two games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Nothing beats a settled team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Having to change our right back and centre midfield every game due to players not being good or fit enough hasn't helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronCitySaint Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Ron certainly does like to change things around. Personally, I think he worries about the opposition too much. Rather he settles on a consistent formula and lets the opposition worry about us. I would prefer we always played to our strengths rather than set the priority of containing the opposition. I imagine players are more comfortable with a consistent strategy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picard Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Leicester have made the least number of changes - 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 (edited) You'd drop a striker who's scored 3 and assisted 2 goals in the previous two games? He was shocking today & should pay for it by losing his place next week . When fit he seems to be an automatic choice . We look far better with long down the middle and by continuing with Pelle we don't get the best out of long . Long & Mane will tear Steven Taylor a new one next week , I'm sure he'd rather have a heading contest with Pelle than be hassled all day by Long . **** me , Huth & Morgan will have loved playing against that big lump today . His attitude stinks as well, always moaning at team mates and the ref . We need rid of him imo Edited 3 April, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettIvo Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 He was shocking today & should pay for it by losing his place next week . When fit he seems to be an automatic choice . We look far better with long down the middle and by continuing with Pelle we don't get the best out of long . Long & Mane will tear Steven Taylor a new one next week , I'm sure he'd rather have a heading contest with Pelle than be hassled all day by Long . **** me , Huth & Morgan will have loved playing against that big lump today . His attitude stinks as well, always moaning at team mates and the ref . We need rid of him imo He set up Mane for our one real chance with a brilliant ball, and got on the end of the one decent cross we produced all game to at least get a decent header away from distance. You can argue he didn't have a great game sure, but my word the service into the area was woeful and not at all helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 Having to change our right back and centre midfield every game due to players not being good or fit enough hasn't helped. How do you know that is the case? the changes are more likely due to Koeman playing what he thinks are the best choices for that game and opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 He set up Mane for our one real chance with a brilliant ball, and got on the end of the one decent cross we produced all game to at least get a decent header away from distance. You can argue he didn't have a great game sure, but my word the service into the area was woeful and not at all helpful. It wasn't the best but it would have been better had he actually attacked a ball that was put in. He rarely does. And didn't once yesterday. Too many times he just a stood there, usually around the penalty spot when the ball was wide. Long is better than him all day long as a central striker. Moves defenders all over the show, wins more headers, attacks almost every single ball in, tries less flicks and allows us to stretch an opposition defence a lot more Long will also dominate a defender a lot more Just so frustrating when pelle is a shoe-in no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 How do you know that is the case? the changes are more likely due to Koeman playing what he thinks are the best choices for that game and opposition. When your strongest team doesn't pick itself you have a bit of a problem each game. When you are more concerned with how the opposition play than how you can impose yourself as a team on them then you also have a problem. I think Saints have done ok this season (no better) but something that has definitely hamstrung us is the constant chopping and changing because it doesn't seem Koeman knows his best team or best formation. I don't blame Koeman for this either because I think it is clear that he would like to play 4-2-3-1 but our team isn't strong enough to do this any more. So we have to find other ways to play and win (which I think Koeman has done very well with). But ultimately it comes down to players. We replaced Schneiderlin with Clasie / Romeu and Clyne with Cedric / Martina. Downgrades in both positions and it has caused issues with our team to the point I think we've won more games not playing 4-2-3-1 this season than we have playing that formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 He was shocking today & should pay for it by losing his place next week . When fit he seems to be an automatic choice . We look far better with long down the middle and by continuing with Pelle we don't get the best out of long . Long & Mane will tear Steven Taylor a new one next week , I'm sure he'd rather have a heading contest with Pelle than be hassled all day by Long . **** me , Huth & Morgan will have loved playing against that big lump today . His attitude stinks as well, always moaning at team mates and the ref . We need rid of him imo He was worse against Chelsea than he was yesterday, should he have been dropped for the Stoke game? What I do agree with those critical of Pelle about is his body language at times, just generally and towards his teammates is poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 If you think it will help in the next fixture why not? There's one thing Huth and Morgan have been excellent at, defending against aerial threat and physical players. I'd have far rather have had Long and Mane up there for this game. Rodriguez if he'd been fit. We're not playing Leicester in our next game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 4 April, 2016 When your strongest team doesn't pick itself you have a bit of a problem each game. When you are more concerned with how the opposition play than how you can impose yourself as a team on them then you also have a problem. I think Saints have done ok this season (no better) but something that has definitely hamstrung us is the constant chopping and changing because it doesn't seem Koeman knows his best team or best formation. I don't blame Koeman for this either because I think it is clear that he would like to play 4-2-3-1 but our team isn't strong enough to do this any more. So we have to find other ways to play and win (which I think Koeman has done very well with). But ultimately it comes down to players. We replaced Schneiderlin with Clasie / Romeu and Clyne with Cedric / Martina. Downgrades in both positions and it has caused issues with our team to the point I think we've won more games not playing 4-2-3-1 this season than we have playing that formation. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 If you think it will help in the next fixture why not? There's one thing Huth and Morgan have been excellent at, defending against aerial threat and physical players. I'd have far rather have had Long and Mane up there for this game. Rodriguez if he'd been fit. I'm sure Long would have played, but he was injured. He was ideal for the Leicester game. Long and Mane would have caused them problems as long as we didn't keep pumping **** poor floated crossed into the area of course. Huth and Morgan must have thought it was their birthdays and Christmas combined yesterday with those tactics combined with the Pelle statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L1Minus10 Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 On a slightly different note. It's annoying now and limiting that we have to burn a substitution on Clasie, in every single game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 Too much tinkering. Koeman tries to be too clever. Picks a team that plays well and then makes three, four or five changes.... Leicester have shown the value of a settled team and concentrating on your strengths rather than 'surprising' the opponents - for what gain? Leicester have also shown the value of a very mobile attack which we had and we're playing well with until Koeman decided to go static again for no need or reason to... Koeman just loses his way with all the changes and we end up with constant experiments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 It is a squad game now and there are few teams like Leicester who have managed to luck out this season and haven't suffered with lots of injuries and suspensions. Nothing wrong with picking a specific team to do a specific job other than if you lose (no matter what you do) there are some who will think you don't know what you are doing. Clearly the injury to long wasn't helpful but Austin was meant to be a stellar signing and what has he done when he has played so far apart from the first touch goal? Is that Ron's fault? You may think he is a rubbish manager but I think he has done a really good job since he has been here. If we were Villa I might agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 It wasn't the best but it would have been better had he actually attacked a ball that was put in. He rarely does. And didn't once yesterday. Too many times he just a stood there, usually around the penalty spot when the ball was wide. Long is better than him all day long as a central striker. Moves defenders all over the show, wins more headers, attacks almost every single ball in, tries less flicks and allows us to stretch an opposition defence a lot more Long will also dominate a defender a lot more Just so frustrating when pelle is a shoe-in no matter what. Very concise and worrying that Pelle gets picked no matter what..... His performance against Leicester was shocking yet again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 5 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 5 April, 2016 On a slightly different note. It's annoying now and limiting that we have to burn a substitution on Clasie, in every single game. I do find this quite frustrating. It stopped us being able to bring Rodriguez on or potentially to sub Wanyama and prevent a possible second yellow. If he isn't fit enough now age 24 and with 6 months of training and games to play 2 games a week or last 90mins in the PL then will he ever be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 Too much tinkering. Koeman tries to be too clever. Picks a team that plays well and then makes three, four or five changes.... Leicester have shown the value of a settled team and concentrating on your strengths rather than 'surprising' the opponents - for what gain? Leicester have also shown the value of a very mobile attack which we had and we're playing well with until Koeman decided to go static again for no need or reason to... Koeman just loses his way with all the changes and we end up with constant experiments... It's interesting that Ranieri, the original 'tinkerman', seems to have abandoned that whole way of thinking altogether. As Whitey says, nothing beats a settled team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 We didn't lose because of tinkering. We lost because Long was injured and we were unable to put our dominance to better use in the final third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 I do find this quite frustrating. It stopped us being able to bring Rodriguez on or potentially to sub Wanyama and prevent a possible second yellow. If he isn't fit enough now age 24 and with 6 months of training and games to play 2 games a week or last 90mins in the PL then will he ever be? Do we know he was taken off because he wasn't fit? Perhaps it was just a tactical move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Show me the mané Posted 5 April, 2016 Share Posted 5 April, 2016 A tactical move that happens practically every week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 6 April, 2016 Share Posted 6 April, 2016 81 changes ? ...doesn't surprise me in the slightest. 4 goalkeepers, 3 right backs. at least half a dozen midfielders. Suspensions: Fonte , Mane twice and Wanyama 3 times. Since start of season, we've had injuries to; Clasie. Mane, Targett, Long, Cedric, Rodriguez, Fonte, Cedric again, Stekelenburg, Cedric (a third time), Pelle again, Bertrand, Steven Davis, Long again and Austin, and Targett again today. Long didn't play today due to an international injury. and they wonder why we've had so many changes.. Don't let injuries and suspensions mask what is a definate trait..... Koeman tinkers far too much .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 Well given that we are 7th I don't see that is a huge problem. Something is obviously working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 Well given that we are 7th I don't see that is a huge problem. Something is obviously working. Your absolutley right, we are having a good season. You must ignore if you can, those that snipe at Koeman and any opportunity but are strangly quiet after victories, these lot have some kind of dislike of RK or just like to complain...and rarely give credit it when its due...shame really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 Your absolutley right, we are having a good season. You must ignore if you can, those that snipe at Koeman and any opportunity but are strangly quiet after victories, these lot have some kind of dislike of RK or just like to complain...and rarely give credit it when its due...shame really I like to have a quick look at the posting "history" of certain contributors and try to find some semblance of positivity. Quite hard, sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 (edited) Sky mentioned we have made (I think) 81 changes to our PL lineup across the games this season. Makes it the second or third most in the league. Whats everyone's opinions on that? Would we be any better with some more consistency of selection or doesn't it matter? Potential arguments: - Shows we have a strong squad and can make changes without affecting the quality of the team? - Shows we have lots of similar quality players who have dips and spikes in form without being nailed on starters? The likes of Cedric, Romeu, Clasie, Tadic, Martina etc spring to mind. - Shows Koeman likes varying the side depending on who we are playing? We know this is the case and does mean some changes are inevitable when switching systems. Certainly don't think we or Koeman really knows the "first choice" XI which isnt necessarily a problem, but is interesting. Shows that our squad depth is better than ever before That we have a manager who carefully considers the team and opposition's merits before every match That we signed some key players after the season had started That we used rotation when still in Europa League That we've developed younger players through the season and are trying to get them game time That we are flexible with formations That we have a lot of similar quality players with dips and peaks in form That we have had a lot of suspensions to key players Edited 7 April, 2016 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 Bit hard to nail down a place when you get dropped even after a good performance. ie Romeu v Liverpool I'm comfortable that the side we picked in the following match was appropriate for the gameplan and executed it very well. We were the better side against Leicester for almost the entire game but they defended slightly better than we did at a key moment. In the context of that, picking Romeu is a "what if"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2016 Share Posted 7 April, 2016 Every team has injuries and suspensions. We have had relatively few injuries I would say, so still a far higher amount of changes week to week than most sides. http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10155134/premier-league-injury-table-man-city-have-suffered-the-most-watford-the-fewest That was in February. We're near the bottom, but Rodriguez probably only counts as one and he's been out almost all season. Meanwhile so has Gardos, but I doubt he'd impact on our results much over 40 matches. Ditto Bournemouth seem to only have had 5 more than us to that point, but they lost nearly half a team to 6 month plus injuries. Leicester have barely had an injury since, notable that Man City, Man Utd and Liverpool, who are all underperforming against expectations, are top of this. But even these stats don't really reflect the significance of the injuries or suspensions, as teams have varying levels of cover, so it's a difficult point to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghq Posted 8 April, 2016 Share Posted 8 April, 2016 How much does the impending departure of Wanyama and Pelle have on their selection? Do you drop Wanyama for a seemingly keener Romeu and stand to lose a few(?) million off his price tag? The same could apply to Pelle to a lesser extent to the point where the offers are ridiculous. I'm certainly not saying this is in fact the situation but could be a consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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