Safe Standing

[kwsaint]

Posted on the thread for old men reminiscing about the sixties and seventies at the Dell.

 

Which got me thinking about standing at games and ideas of safe standing. Seems to have gone quiet on this lately.

 

Part of me thinks it's a good idea for part of the ground, part of me remembers Hillsborough and all the problems of the 80's

 

Your thoughts?

[Golden Balls]

Modern standing or "safe standing" is nothing like the old terraces.

 

Can't see it happening for a while yet though, unfortunately. Too many Liverpool fans won't allow it.

[eurosaint]

In this day and age it is surely not beyond the wit of man to resurrect this !

Solid, high quality barriers per row, strict control on numbers, copy the successful German model is all that is required !

Plusses would be a) increased capacity b) better atmosphere c) lower prices.

The only thing holding it back is politics as nobody wants to be associated with previous disasters but for me that is nonsense !

Bring it on....

[for_heaven's_Saint]

Surely just the fact that all ticket barriers are automated will solve a lot of the potential dangers? It's pretty much impossible to get into a particular section of the ground without having a ticket for it.

[alehouseboys]

Been done a few times on here over recent years

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?45024-Safe-Standing-Back-In-The-News&highlight=safe+standing#.VuCVhJyLTIU

 

This was a decent thread that spanned a year or so. Be good to have the choice again.

[Nexstar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33061483

 

Can't imagine it will be long before we see it in the PL.

[alehouseboys]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33061483

 

Can't imagine it will be long before we see it in the PL.

 

Could be in Wales sooner...if the English authorities allowed it for Welsh teams playing in the English leagues.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3383927/Safe-standing-football-matches-possible-Wales-safety-powers-devolved.html

[Lord Duckhunter]

At the moment we have " unsafe " standing so I really don't see what the issue is . Maybe the end of the Hillsborough enquiry and it's inevitable conclusion that some fans could have been saved and that the police and authorities messed up and then covered up , could be the time to draw a line under the past .

[angelman]

Modern standing or "safe standing" is nothing like the old terraces.

 

Can't see it happening for a while yet though, unfortunately. Too many Liverpool fans won't allow it.

 

Am afraid to say that this is correct. Putting it into context, Hillsborough was one match amongst tens of thousands where standing happened, and the ban was the more (in my eyes) to eradicate hooliganism than to prevent another Hillsborough. It took the Dell from, what was it, a 23k to 15k capacity (or if you took the biggest crowd, a 31k capacity). Before my time, but 31k at the Dell - wow!!

 

With new "safe standing", you can get anywhere up to 80% more people in the same space I believe, although I think that the accepted amount is more like 40-50%. It is supposedly safer than the current way that people stand in their seats. So with the benefits as mentioned, I can't see why not. In fact, I can't see any downside to it apart from maybe increasing the chance of hooliganism, not that that has been a great problem at SFC.

 

Bring it on.

[suewhistle]

As I was there I'd say the 31k at The Dell may have been a slight underestimate... The Mick Channon testimonial on the Monday after the cup final was meant to be a smaller crowd, but I beg to differ! Apart from not seeing much there were no problems.

[sandwichsaint]

As I was there I'd say the 31k at The Dell may have been a slight underestimate... The Mick Channon testimonial on the Monday after the cup final was meant to be a smaller crowd, but I beg to differ! Apart from not seeing much there were no problems.

 

I was at both of those games and there were unmistakeably more at the testimonial,

[Mattio]

Am afraid to say that this is correct. Putting it into context, Hillsborough was one match amongst tens of thousands where standing happened, and the ban was the more (in my eyes) to eradicate hooliganism than to prevent another Hillsborough. It took the Dell from, what was it, a 23k to 15k capacity (or if you took the biggest crowd, a 31k capacity). Before my time, but 31k at the Dell - wow!!

 

With new "safe standing", you can get anywhere up to 80% more people in the same space I believe, although I think that the accepted amount is more like 40-50%. It is supposedly safer than the current way that people stand in their seats. So with the benefits as mentioned, I can't see why not. In fact, I can't see any downside to it apart from maybe increasing the chance of hooliganism, not that that has been a great problem at SFC.

 

Bring it on.

 

Everyone who wants to stand does anyway at SMS, it's just unsafe to do so at the moment, it doesn't make sense to NOT inforce it at SMS.

[Golden Balls]

The amount of times I've slipped between seats and fallen over seats in the current set up, I'd say it's very unsafe at the moment.

[Kenilworthy]

Maybe the cap on away tickets at £30 will give a push for safe standing. There would be a big advantage to clubs to get 50% more people in the away section to offset the loss on not being able to charge for more tickets for away fans. And if we can have safe standing then perhaps at last those who do want to sit at away games, especially the young and elderly, will be able to. Because at the moment there is often no choice but to stand in your seat.

[a1ex2001]

I've never understood Hillsborough being used as a reason for not allowing standing in modern stadiums, it wasn't standing that killed people it was caging them in like animals and not letting them out when the problem occurred. There is no way modern standing areas would be fenced in like the 80's simply because hooliganism isn't the problem it once was and again standing up didn't make people hooligans being idiots made people hooligans and fortunately that element seems to have been pushed out of the modern fan base (mostly) and a combination of cctv and banning orders makes a return to the dark days of the weekly pitch invasion seem unlikely.

 

Sadly we can't even have the debate in this country at the minute maybe when the new Hillsborough inquest is concluded we will finally be able to put what was unquestionably a tragic event behind us and move forward with a reasonable discussion.

[spyinthesky]

I've never understood Hillsborough being used as a reason for not allowing standing in modern stadiums, it wasn't standing that killed people it was caging them in like animals and not letting them out when the problem occurred. There is no way modern standing areas would be fenced in like the 80's simply because hooliganism isn't the problem it once was and again standing up didn't make people hooligans being idiots made people hooligans and fortunately that element seems to have been pushed out of the modern fan base (mostly) and a combination of cctv and banning orders makes a return to the dark days of the weekly pitch invasion seem unlikely.

 

Sadly we can't even have the debate in this country at the minute maybe when the new Hillsborough inquest is concluded we will finally be able to put what was unquestionably a tragic event behind us and move forward with a reasonable discussion.

 

Good post

[saint si]

I've never understood Hillsborough being used as a reason for not allowing standing in modern stadiums, it wasn't standing that killed people it was caging them in like animals and not letting them out when the problem occurred. There is no way modern standing areas would be fenced in like the 80's simply because hooliganism isn't the problem it once was and again standing up didn't make people hooligans being idiots made people hooligans and fortunately that element seems to have been pushed out of the modern fan base (mostly) and a combination of cctv and banning orders makes a return to the dark days of the weekly pitch invasion seem unlikely.

 

Sadly we can't even have the debate in this country at the minute maybe when the new Hillsborough inquest is concluded we will finally be able to put what was unquestionably a tragic event behind us and move forward with a reasonable discussion.

 

This plus the introduction of all ticket matches (i.e. no pay on the day) and there's really no reason it couldn't be implemented safely.

[Saint_clark]

Since Hillsborough was the driving force behind all seater stadiums being introduced and it has since been proven that standing had nothing to do with what happened, why is it not under review anyway. The whole idea of safe standing is ludicrous anyway - i'd rather not have a metal pole in front of me if i'm going to fall over.

[The9]

Since Hillsborough was the driving force behind all seater stadiums being introduced and it has since been proven that standing had nothing to do with what happened, why is it not under review anyway. The whole idea of safe standing is ludicrous anyway - i'd rather not have a metal pole in front of me if i'm going to fall over.

 

Not even "since", really. IIRC there was an interim report which made the all-seater recommendation, and the Taylor Report itself was very clear that the issues were crowd control and measuring the number of people in certain areas - Taylor even said something about all-seaters (and all-ticket games) being the easiest way to manage crowd numbers but that it wasn't essential. The government finally had something it could enforce on football fans to "solve hooliganism" and with the following wind of England in Italia '90, the clubs saw an opportunity to get some central funding to improve their facilities and didn't complain about it.

 

The whole of the 1989/1990 season was played in front of lower-capacity terraces with numbers being counted and more ticketing restrictions, and there were no incidents whatsoever. By the time the timeframe for the all-seater rule kicked in around 1992-ish (from memory) it was obvious that was successfully managing the problem and all-seaters weren't needed. But the dictat had been issued by then and the clubs had started hiking seat prices (which were already more expensive than standing) to make up for the shortfall in revenue from the lower numbers allowed in.

[Kenilworthy]

The stupid thing is that as recently as 2002 you could stand on terraces to watch a game at Craven Cottage as they were given time to make the transition to all seater. About that time there was a supporters forum at St Mary's to which Rupert had invited a representative from the relevant safety authority. I asked him if I had been at risk when standing on the terrace at Fulham. He replied no of course not. To which I then asked why is it impossible to reintroduce terracing since your own opinion is clearly that it is safe. His only answer was 'because all seater stadiums are the law'. And that is the simple mindiness that we are stuck with. A stupidity that still believes everyone is sitting down when the evidence is clear to see. A stupidity that will not legally allow clubs to designate parts of their stand as standing and seating, even though that is the de-facto case and some clubs such as Sheffield Wednesday are explicit in telling away fans that if you want to sit go to the front of the stand and if you want to stand go to the back - an entirely sensible measure but not actually legal.