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No creativity


Saint-Beer

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For those saying "we lost it in midfield", the problem was that the ball basically went nowhere near our midfield as they were sat narrow in the middle and it went down the wing, mostly from the left back. Then they ran out of ideas and played for set pieces (hence all the diving), but that's by the by. They didn't create much at all despite having a load of attacking possession AND despite us allowing them to the edge of the box unchallenged over and over, and still they only scored from two set pieces.

 

Every time Bournemouth had the ball their players were in the holes where our players weren't - which is all about tactics. Then when we got the ball from them we always got the ball in an ultra defensive position, rarely played a short forward pass and even more rarely then got the ball forward again to an attacking wide player (and when we did created nothing from it). They overloaded us by pushing their full back(s) forward which created a 2 on 1 for (mostly) Cedric as the right sided DM stayed too narrow, and Cedric then couldn't get out to attack. We very rarely switched the ball to the opposing wing which was where all of our space was if we did win it back, and the couple of times we tried it, we had defenders booting it off the pitch.

 

The narrow midfield defended the centre pretty well (I only remember them going through the middle once) but we gave up far too much territory and never looked likely to counter, and their players busting a gut to close down space meant we couldn't create anything anyway. Frustrating as hell.

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If anyone can't see this team are lacking a ball playing number 10 capable of holding the ball up so others can get past him, picking a pass and even hitting one in the top corner every so often, I worry for them.

 

Our attacking is so woefully one dimensional and has been for a while. We labour the ball in to the channels and then cut it back for the full back to swing in a cross. If the opposition are able to deal with that, we then go on to struggle as nobody seems to have the ability to make a difference through the middle.

 

Agree that we tend to swing crosses in more often than not, but I don't necessarily agree that we need a number 10 unless we actually try to attack like that. We didn't try and do that at any point despite the fact that Mane is perfectly capable of taking the ball and running at people down the middle. Yesterday his touch was dubious and he never had the time or space to make anything happen, but the ball was rarely in the central midfield area under control by either side at all last night.

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Because he doesn't fit the 5-3-2 system and also because his form has dipped, as it will do with all players. If Tadic was consistent he'd be playing for a much bigger club than us.

 

I've always thought he would make a great no.10 as he has all the attributes to play there (except maybe not enough goals) and there will be less need for him to do the defensive work in that position. With Austin out for a while now I hope he gets a chance to play there. Even if he doesn't, hopefully we aren't going to see centre forwards played out wide again as it simply doesn't work. Play to our strengths, 4-4-1-1 or a 4-4-2

 

Thanks for the sensible reply - you make some valid points but I still don't regard him up to that job. he just doesn't seem able to give 100%.

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If anyone can't see this team are lacking a ball playing number 10 capable of holding the ball up so others can get past him, picking a pass and even hitting one in the top corner every so often, I worry for them.

 

I do agree, but I think you underestimate how much the kind of player you're describing would probably cost. We aren't the only team in the league who'd love to have that kind of player, but don't.

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Agree that we tend to swing crosses in more often than not, but I don't necessarily agree that we need a number 10 unless we actually try to attack like that. We didn't try and do that at any point despite the fact that Mane is perfectly capable of taking the ball and running at people down the middle. Yesterday his touch was dubious and he never had the time or space to make anything happen, but the ball was rarely in the central midfield area under control by either side at all last night.

 

Without a number 10, our target man forward starts looking extremely isolated if plan A doesn't work.

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On another note and as mentioned on here, has any mod explained why the post match discussion thread was closed yet?

 

I was wondering that, it just ends up pitching up all over the rest of the threads.

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Without a number 10, our target man forward starts looking extremely isolated if plan A doesn't work.

 

If we're not using the one we do have, that's exactly what happens. The problem yesterday wasn't creativity as much as never getting the ball into positions to be creative from quickly enough.

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On another note and as mentioned on here, has any mod explained why the post match discussion thread was closed yet?

 

There were two post match threads and one of the mods merged them into one, but then inadvertently (it would seem) closed both down without realising.

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Koeman continues to make exactly the same mistakes over and over again. We have tried the three forwards recently and were woeful. We had no midfield when it was obvious to every we needed to flood it !!! Koeman picks the team and tactics just randomly with no thought at all....

It must be very demotivating for the players too... This guy is well off the pace...

I know the team were carp but Koeman gave us no chance tonight... There are few words to describe his inept decisions on all levels for this match. He didn't react at the weekend iether when again he was left wanting tactically and team sheet wise....

Very poor indeed ....

Poch is in another league as a manager...

 

He was let down by his team, we all know that, your dislike of him is your prerogative but its a bit loon..

 

Toddle of to the lane and worship poch as you seem to love him despite his lack of plan b here...bye :wave:

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We have been lacking a Sneijder type player for many seasons now. We need an upgraded Djamel Belmadi

 

Well i just read that Sneijder is gonna be up for grabs in the summer for 5 million pounds cause of Galatasaray's financial problems. He should have another 2 good years in him, doubt he wants to come to Southampton tho.

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Well i just read that Sneijder is gonna be up for grabs in the summer for 5 million pounds cause of Galatasaray's financial problems. He should have another 2 good years in him, doubt he wants to come to Southampton tho.

 

Saints don't pay Sneijder type salaries. I'll put him down for a West Ham type signing.

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What worried me about yesterday wasn't our lack of creativity , but a lack of fight. We've seen that sort of game over & over again at The Dell . This time we were the complacent side that didn't want to get their hands dirty & Boscombe the hungry, hardworking side determined to knock us down a peg or two. Eddie Howe clearly had them set up & prepared & we weren't . When an average player like Surman is allowed to run the midfield, when their average centre halves are playing with cigars , there's something clearly wrong .

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He's playing for Middlesbrough....

 

he's doing very well at it too.

mate at work is borough fan, says he's been a revelation. scored one and got an assist when he played the other day.

borough fans are v happy with him so he says

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the last two games has seen our midfield get completely over-run too.

obviously, when chelsea do it, sort of OK. not when bournemouth do it.

 

Revert back to 433 me thinks

 

Like it or not everyone but we are missing Wanyama, not saying all our problems would be solved but

he would help massively as he is our best midfielder for breaking up/stopping oppositions play..

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Like it or not everyone but we are missing Wanyama, not saying all our problems would be solved but

he would help massively as he is our best midfielder for breaking up/stopping oppositions play..

 

No we aren't. Romeu put plenty of tackles in last night, the issue was a tactical one not a personnel one. Both JWP and Romeu were being dragged across to help cover the full backs because we were playing with 2 centre forwards out wide. It was a tactical disaster and we were never able to get a foothold in the game from that point on

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No we aren't. Romeu put plenty of tackles in last night, the issue was a tactical one not a personnel one. Both JWP and Romeu were being dragged across to help cover the full backs because we were playing with 2 centre forwards out wide. It was a tactical disaster and we were never able to get a foothold in the game from that point on

 

to give koeman credit, it's the same tactic that has bossed the passed 6-7 games. and it would have worked, had bournemouth not played a different system. once he realised we were getting overrun on the flanks he made the change just after half an hour.

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Koeman continues to make exactly the same mistakes over and over again. We have tried the three forwards recently and were woeful. We had no midfield when it was obvious to every we needed to flood it !!! Koeman picks the team and tactics just randomly with no thought at all....

It must be very demotivating for the players too... This guy is well off the pace...

I know the team were carp but Koeman gave us no chance tonight... There are few words to describe his inept decisions on all levels for this match. He didn't react at the weekend iether when again he was left wanting tactically and team sheet wise....

Very poor indeed ....

Poch is in another league as a manager...

 

Always look on the bright side of life, if he's as bad as you say then at least he won't get poached by a top half team.

 

I guess he was as perplexed as anybody last night it is not often a whole team of players have a stinker at the same time.

 

No question letting in those two late goals against Chelsea has shattered fragile confidence and morale in on feel swoop. Maybe the back three thought Forster impregnable but after two shaky performances from the big man that may no longer be the case.

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No we aren't. Romeu put plenty of tackles in last night, the issue was a tactical one not a personnel one. Both JWP and Romeu were being dragged across to help cover the full backs because we were playing with 2 centre forwards out wide. It was a tactical disaster and we were never able to get a foothold in the game from that point on

 

And when we changed it we still won very little in midfield either...

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And when we changed it we still won very little in midfield either...

 

I agree with you about wanyama

Fabregas completed the most passes by a single player in a game, this season.

Surman was able to run the show last night.

 

Rom is good. But I believe we are better with Wanyama in the side

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And when we changed it we still won very little in midfield either...

 

Yes we did, it's simply to wrong to say we didn't. We just didn't do anything remotely competent with it, and more often than not we pumped it long and gave it back to them. Romeu made more tackles and interceptions last night than Surman and Arter combined and was probably the only one who did ok. That's why you could hear our fans singing his name throughout much of the first half.

 

Tactical stupidity was responsible for the first 30 mins, and after that it was down to a lack of creativity and ability on the ball. We really missed Clasie and Tadic should have been on far earlier than he was

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Before it even kicked off last night it wasn't going to work. Koeman got it wrong again. It's not even the 5-3-2 that messed it up, it was picking Yoshida as the third centre back that messed it up. It was a mess the last time we played three centre backs including Yoshida. There is a complete lack of balance. It only works, although I don't like it, with a two proper left sided players.

 

Playing the lightweight JWP as one of two midfielders was crass. We were massively undermanned in midfield against a team comfortable and pressing hard in a 4-4-2 with their full backs supporting the wingers. Consequently the front players were feeding off scraps. Bournemouth didn't really create anything but they pressed the life out of us.

 

The two goals were the result of stupidity by Fonte fiddling about on the touchline, the ball should have gone into row Z. What did he think he was going to do if he won the ball apart from trying to shepherd it into touch, and an oversensitive referee giving a free kick as yet another Bournemouth player belly flops to the ground in dramatic fashion. Then failing to defend properly, what's the point of eleven players defending if they get in each others way?

 

The weakness of the middle three after Koeman admitted defeat wasn't solved by the non combative Davis. The only option was Clasie and Tadic or Davis and take off Mane or Austin with Yoshida and completely change to match up Bournemouth and 4-4-2 as we did against Arsenal and raise the tempo and press the life out of them.

Edited by derry
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Now I've had time to process last night I have the following to say:

 

We know the team is better than this.

We have all seen the team play better than this.

One result does not make a season.

 

Knowing these three things, it is incredibly frustrating to see the team put in a performance like last night. I really wish Ron had put Tadic on earlier in the game because it was clear that Tadic changed things for the better.

I have to say move on now - it's done. Ron got it wrong, the team got it wrong. Please do not lets slip back into that awful run we had where we couldn't do anything right. The team is better than this.

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Yes we did, it's simply to wrong to say we didn't. We just didn't do anything remotely competent with it, and more often than not we pumped it long and gave it back to them. Romeu made more tackles and interceptions last night than Surman and Arter combined and was probably the only one who did ok. That's why you could hear our fans singing his name throughout much of the first half.

 

Tactical stupidity was responsible for the first 30 mins, and after that it was down to a lack of creativity and ability on the ball. We really missed Clasie and Tadic should have been on far earlier than he was

 

All about opinions and i don`t agree with yours and you don`t agree with mine..

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to give koeman credit, it's the same tactic that has bossed the passed 6-7 games. and it would have worked, had bournemouth not played a different system. once he realised we were getting overrun on the flanks he made the change just after half an hour.

 

We were on a good run, but to say we bossed the last 6-7 game before these two losses just isn't true. We had good results against Watford and Palace, and then went on a run of sneaking wins and draws by the odd goal, helped in no small amount by a couple of superhuman performances from FF. Last night is what happens when the defence of a team that doesn't score enough goals stops performing miracles.

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We were on a good run, but to say we bossed the last 6-7 game before these two losses just isn't true. We had good results against Watford and Palace, and then went on a run of sneaking wins and draws by the odd goal, helped in no small amount by a couple of superhuman performances from FF. Last night is what happens when the defence of a team that doesn't score enough goals stops performing miracles.

 

I agree with this. We really need to do something about our lack of goals.

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We need to play like L'pool did tonight: effort, endeavour, commitment, bossing the midfield and going for goal whenever possible. Judas had a great game and was key to the victory. We need someone to play that role here. When we play our remaining games we need to play just like that, not like our limp-wristed display yesterday. Starting against Sunderland and continuing past City to Palace. And next year, too.

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He was let down by his team, we all know that, your dislike of him is your prerogative but its a bit loon..

 

Toddle of to the lane and worship poch as you seem to love him despite his lack of plan b here...bye :wave:

 

Your lack of decisive objective opinion and altenative is indicative of of a person who blindly follows but never leads ....

So toddle off to your cosy unproductive lack of ambition island with your pipe and slippers where success is not in the dictionary.

 

I love the way Happy Clappers have nothing to say except to critique those who do.......

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We were on a good run, but to say we bossed the last 6-7 game before these two losses just isn't true. We had good results against Watford and Palace, and then went on a run of sneaking wins and draws by the odd goal, helped in no small amount by a couple of superhuman performances from FF. Last night is what happens when the defence of a team that doesn't score enough goals stops performing miracles.

 

I think the tactic of 3 at the back as absolutely been the reason we've won so many in a row. I don't mean they've been shiny performances, but that we've tactically bossed other teams by playing the system. I think that's still true. We've played badly, granted, and swans away thought we could have easily ocme away with nothing, but the tactic has been undoubtedly effective against most teams we've come up against.

 

my point was , there was every reason to pick that tactic/formation again. I think that was a good decision. but whatever tactic we played, the reason we lossed was our passing was downright awful and the only players who could do anything creative were at the edge of the park, not in the middle.

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Your lack of decisive objective opinion and altenative is indicative of of a person who blindly follows but never leads ....

So toddle off to your cosy unproductive lack of ambition island with your pipe and slippers where success is not in the dictionary.

 

I love the way Happy Clappers have nothing to say except to critique those who do.......

 

I think that you will find that plenty of "happy clappers" have been critical of the performance. The difference between us is that you go out of your way to heap the blame on Koeman at every opportunity whereas those with a more balanced view can see that there are other issues. This set up has worked for us plenty of times before. As has been said, the passing was appalling as was the lack of fight. You blame Koeman for that because you have an anti Koeman agenda. Others blame the players because they feel that is where the blame lies.

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Your lack of decisive objective opinion and altenative is indicative of of a person who blindly follows but never leads ....

So toddle off to your cosy unproductive lack of ambition island with your pipe and slippers where success is not in the dictionary.

 

I love the way Happy Clappers have nothing to say except to critique those who do.......

 

I think that you will find that plenty of "happy clappers" have been critical of the performance. The difference between us is that you go out of your way to heap the blame on Koeman at every opportunity whereas those with a more balanced view can see that there are other issues. This set up has worked for us plenty of times before. As has been said, the passing was appalling as was the lack of fight. You blame Koeman for that because you have an anti Koeman agenda. Others blame the players because they feel that is where the blame lies.

 

Well put sadold, you beat me to it but i would suggest it will be wasted on him as he has a agenda like you say

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I think the tactic of 3 at the back as absolutely been the reason we've won so many in a row. I don't mean they've been shiny performances, but that we've tactically bossed other teams by playing the system. I think that's still true. We've played badly, granted, and swans away thought we could have easily ocme away with nothing, but the tactic has been undoubtedly effective against most teams we've come up against.

 

my point was , there was every reason to pick that tactic/formation again. I think that was a good decision. but whatever tactic we played, the reason we lossed was our passing was downright awful and the only players who could do anything creative were at the edge of the park, not in the middle.

 

Agreed . I like 3 at the back because it gives you 2 up top without being outnumbered in midfield . We do play better with Targett as wing back & Ryan B as the centre half , it also suits VvD imo .

 

Tuesday was nothing to do with our formation and all to do with the way we played & the side we picked ( JWP is not a centre midfielder ) . If you don't compete , pass badly and don't work hard , you'll get beat regardless of what formation you play

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I think that you will find that plenty of "happy clappers" have been critical of the performance. The difference between us is that you go out of your way to heap the blame on Koeman at every opportunity whereas those with a more balanced view can see that there are other issues. This set up has worked for us plenty of times before. As has been said, the passing was appalling as was the lack of fight. You blame Koeman for that because you have an anti Koeman agenda. Others blame the players because they feel that is where the blame lies.

 

The Manager is ultimately responsible for picking the team, the tactics and motivating the players. If it doesn't work out or they don't perform then it comes back to him. It's a very simple concept.

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Before it even kicked off last night it wasn't going to work. Koeman got it wrong again. It's not even the 5-3-2 that messed it up, it was picking Yoshida as the third centre back that messed it up. .

 

Yet having taken him off on 25 minutes we proceeded to play far worse and concede two goals without creating anything. Yoshida's usual level of ball-playing was the level of our passing all night - too slow, and mostly backwards. That was mainly due to Bournemouth closing down very well. When they had the ball, it absolutely was our narrow midfield that was the problem - they were at the edge of our box with the ball before anyone even closed it down, and that didn't change with the substitution, nothing went through the middle all match and it didn't have to for them to get into attacking positions.

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The Manager is ultimately responsible for picking the team, the tactics and motivating the players. If it doesn't work out or they don't perform then it comes back to him. It's a very simple concept.

 

Nothing he can do if they go out there and just don't do what they're asked, Koeman said on Solent when we were sat in the queue away from the ground that they'd discussed the need to match Bournemouth's attitude. They didn't even get close.

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Agreed . I like 3 at the back because it gives you 2 up top without being outnumbered in midfield . We do play better with Targett as wing back & Ryan B as the centre half , it also suits VvD imo .

 

Tuesday was nothing to do with our formation and all to do with the way we played & the side we picked ( JWP is not a centre midfielder ) . If you don't compete , pass badly and don't work hard , you'll get beat regardless of what formation you play

 

It had everything to do with our formation, Bournemouth gave the ball to their left back who repeatedly attacked alongside Gradel 2 on 1 against Cedric, and no-one other than Cedric ever got near enough to challenge for the ball. The tactical change still left that space and Bournemouth continued to use it to attack us and send people forward for the set pieces they were winning.

 

Having the ball that far up the pitch so easily meant our entire team was on the edge of our box when we did get the ball, and we very rarely saw Cedric getting the chance to go forward or play the ball into attacking positions to counter them. The play being so compressed so high also meant it was easy for Bournemouth to get close enough to stop us playing out from the back, and often when a CB had the ball the only option was a hoof. Sometimes we got a second ball and the play was further up the pitch and there was a wing-switching pass on, but the players making those passes weren't the right players so they weren't effective and we mostly tried to play Mane/Cedric stuff down the right and swing it in the box where Bournemouth's defence headed clear.

 

Basically the tactics nullified our wide threat and the lack of effort (and Bournemouth's hard work in marking and closing down off the ball) meant that we didn't create anything significant.

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We need to play like L'pool did tonight: effort, endeavour, commitment, bossing the midfield and going for goal whenever possible. Judas had a great game and was key to the victory. We need someone to play that role here. When we play our remaining games we need to play just like that, not like our limp-wristed display yesterday. Starting against Sunderland and continuing past City to Palace. And next year, too.

 

Funnily enough Liverpool's success last night was also due to the lack of effort from their opponents' better players.

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Yet having taken him off on 25 minutes we proceeded to play far worse and concede two goals without creating anything. Yoshida's usual level of ball-playing was the level of our passing all night - too slow, and mostly backwards. That was mainly due to Bournemouth closing down very well. When they had the ball, it absolutely was our narrow midfield that was the problem - they were at the edge of our box with the ball before anyone even closed it down, and that didn't change with the substitution, nothing went through the middle all match and it didn't have to for them to get into attacking positions.

 

Someones lying...

Davis came on around 35th minute after we conceded, not 25.

We were appalling before and after the change- nothing changed. However are only chance of note was Austin around the 5th minute before the change so... Meh.

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