tpbury Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 I was having a bit of fun naming prem league scorers on this thread http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55939-Name-every-PL-scorer-for-Saints#.VqnzhPl97IU I found myself going through other clubs' PL scorers and found that I was guessing players who scored before the 'beginning of time', ie 92. For some reason I was particularly annoyed that eg Gary Lineker, Kenny Dalgliesh and Alan Hansen didn't exist as far as this quiz was concerned, and many others of course. I didn't bother with teams that I consider 'new' to the PL, eg Watford, but started looking at old league tables and found myself surprised and annoyed that Watford did an 'us' and finished 2nd in 83, the year before we did in 84, what I consider the pinnacle of our history apart from 76. I'd always thought of them a div 3 or 4 team and Elton John's plaything and have never seen them as having the same stature as Saints, yet there they were, runners up to Liverpool the year before us! So, if you're still awake, I started thinking who are really the top flight teams in England. Who in the current flight have no right to be there, and who should be there? I used the method of complete bias, prejudice and my my own memories, plus an arbitrary definition of history starting in 1976. This website was useful : http://aharm.net/football-tables.html (found it through http://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/04/24/all-of-the-league-tables-for-every-single-season-of-english-football-from-1889-to-2012/) So, if you had to send a list of 20 teams that represent top flight english football into a space probe, who would you choose? Of course, there's a bunch of obvious ones from the current crop. Liverpool - massive in 70s/80s Arsenal - ever present fraudulent original members Man United - owned the 90s Everton (school of science) Those who I remember being promoted (and therefore didn't really exist beforehand, according to my aforementioned rules), but have/did established themselves Spurs Villa (champs and euro winners) Chelsea (yo-yo team) Leeds (Tony Currie Man City West Ham (not that keen, but struggling for numbers now) Longevity and bias Coventry Saints Euro Heroes, representing England and Empire Forest Ipswich Previously unmentioned winners Derby (just outside my time frame, but whatever) Blackburn (reluctantly, but they did win the bloody thing and buy Shearer) Bob Latchford Birmingham Stan Bowles QPR Yo-yo tenacity Norwich Palace I've excluded some teams with European success, primarily on the grounds of being after the age of empire (Boro, Fulham) Just for being northern and not much cop, Newcastle, Sunderland, Bolton, Sheffields). I think all my selected teams have pedigree and would represent us well in the Milky Way league. Who would you switch out or in? Mid 70's onwards. It's still a few days til the next game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Red Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 I think you're not far off, but not sure how you can exclude Newcastle. They'd be in my top 10 comfortably. Maybe ditch Norwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattio Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Newcastle (just because) and Sheff Weds (15 seasons in the top flight between 84-00) in? Ipswich and Birmingham (both 7 seasons) out, otherwise sounds good to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Shef Wed as Mattio says. Always seemed to lose against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 I was having a bit of fun naming prem league scorers on this thread http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55939-Name-every-PL-scorer-for-Saints#.VqnzhPl97IU I found myself going through other clubs' PL scorers and found that I was guessing players who scored before the 'beginning of time', ie 92. For some reason I was particularly annoyed that eg Gary Lineker, Kenny Dalgliesh and Alan Hansen didn't exist as far as this quiz was concerned, and many others of course. I didn't bother with teams that I consider 'new' to the PL, eg Watford, but started looking at old league tables and found myself surprised and annoyed that Watford did an 'us' and finished 2nd in 83, the year before we did in 84, what I consider the pinnacle of our history apart from 76. I'd always thought of them a div 3 or 4 team and Elton John's plaything and have never seen them as having the same stature as Saints, yet there they were, runners up to Liverpool the year before us! So, if you're still awake, I started thinking who are really the top flight teams in England. Who in the current flight have no right to be there, and who should be there? I used the method of complete bias, prejudice and my my own memories, plus an arbitrary definition of history starting in 1976. This website was useful : http://aharm.net/football-tables.html (found it through http://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/04/24/all-of-the-league-tables-for-every-single-season-of-english-football-from-1889-to-2012/) So, if you had to send a list of 20 teams that represent top flight english football into a space probe, who would you choose? Of course, there's a bunch of obvious ones from the current crop. Liverpool - massive in 70s/80s Arsenal - ever present fraudulent original members Man United - owned the 90s Everton (school of science) Those who I remember being promoted (and therefore didn't really exist beforehand, according to my aforementioned rules), but have/did established themselves Spurs Villa (champs and euro winners) Chelsea (yo-yo team) Leeds (Tony Currie Man City West Ham (not that keen, but struggling for numbers now) Longevity and bias Coventry Saints Euro Heroes, representing England and Empire Forest Ipswich Previously unmentioned winners Derby (just outside my time frame, but whatever) Blackburn (reluctantly, but they did win the bloody thing and buy Shearer) Bob Latchford Birmingham Stan Bowles QPR Yo-yo tenacity Norwich Palace I've excluded some teams with European success, primarily on the grounds of being after the age of empire (Boro, Fulham) Just for being northern and not much cop, Newcastle, Sunderland, Bolton, Sheffields). I think all my selected teams have pedigree and would represent us well in the Milky Way league. Who would you switch out or in? Mid 70's onwards. It's still a few days til the next game... i can't believe you didnt put Pompey in the list, they played AC Milan you know. I think your choices are pretty spot on, but I cant get Blackburn to be on that list. Yes they did win the title but that was unusual circumstances due to Jack Walkers money. Perhaps Wolves as whilst they didnt win much in the period, they were there and abouts for a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 (edited) would also stick middlesborough on that list. repesenting everything about the current english game: - lots of history - had a couple good trips to europe - had the all important cup win - big fanbase - probably unknown to most folks abroad - go up and down between championship and the premiership with no sight of dropping far down, no chance of reaching champions league spots, just a bit of milling about in the middle giving fans something to shout about when they've got a chance at promotion, and complain about when they're about to be relegated Edited 28 January, 2016 by eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Whoever were the teams in my Merlin Premier League 95 sticker album will always be the 'real' top flight. I actually did more of a complex calculation as to what made a 'big club', which factored in trophies, average position since 92, attendance, size of stadium etc. Don't have it to hand, but I think Saints were around 20th. When I look at the lower divisions, teams that I think probably ought to be in the top division are Leeds, Forest, Wednesday & Derby. You could make a case for quite a few others, such as Wolves, Coventry, Ipswich etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimeTopFlightPointsTable1888-89to2010-11.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinger Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimeTopFlightPointsTable1888-89to2010-11.html Love that. I'm a bit surprised to see WBA so high up the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 28 January, 2016 Author Share Posted 28 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimeTopFlightPointsTable1888-89to2010-11.html That's really interesting website, but, despite us being above PomPoms in both the 3 point and two point versions, I wanted to restrict the time frame to my own life time and memories, although it isn't much different to my list, after all. And it will be a bit skewed by teams with great success before WWII - mainly northern teams (though I don't really hate them) and of course Mouthsport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimePremierLeagueTable1992-93to2010-11.html This one is for the Premier League years. Wouldn't argue a great deal with the top 20 there, though the likes of Middlesbrough and Fulham would probably drop out for those going further back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 If Villa go down, it will be a club with a fine pedigree that bites the dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Halo* Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 If you had to send a list of 20 teams that represent top flight english football into a space probe, who would you choose? Decent topic idea. It is something that both my father and myself have a minor annoyance about, the number of quality football clubs that should be in the top flight, but for whatever reasons, have lost their status, and been unable to regain it. I think personally, it stems from the teams that used to be up there with us as I was growing up, during our 27 unbroken years at the top-table. Some massive clubs, particularly now stuck in the Championship, sides with large followings, being replaced with shíte like Wigan, Blackpool, Fulham, Hull, etc. All teams that were usually bottom two division clubs when I was a kid. I like to see the most competitive top-flight possible, and for me that includes the biggest Clubs, with the best fan-bases. Clubs that if they could get back up there now, with the size of their support, and the money the game is awash with now -- could soon become decent forces in the game again. Having sides that can barely generate a half-decent crowd and atmosphere, for me at least, detracts from the overall experience of the competition, and makes the league that much less exciting than it could be. I mean, who would you rather watch on a Sunday afternoon sky game, Hull vs Blackpool, and Wigan vs Fulham -- or Leeds Utd vs Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest vs Birmingham City? Clubs that could have a real potential to grow again, and bring more quality to the division? Anyway, here's mine: Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea Manchester City Liverpool Everton Southampton Tottenham Hotspur Newcastle United Nottingham Forest Leeds United Sheffield Wednesday Sheffield United Birmingham City Aston Villa Wolverhampton Wanderers Coventry City Stoke City Norwich City Ipswich Town Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 (edited) Fulham? Actually forget Fulham. I though they had spent more time in the old Div 1 than they had. Edited 28 January, 2016 by sadoldgit amendment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Why has anyone not mentioned Portsmouth, what with their superior history, their two league titles and FA Cup victories, of course they should be considered, they're definitely a big, sleeping giant, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Halo* Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Why has anyone not mentioned Portsmouth, what with their superior history, their two league titles and FA Cup victories, of course they should be considered, they're definitely a big, sleeping giant, yes? That club doesn't exist anymore. And even if it did, when you had a "stadium" (I use the word loosely) that only held 21,000, and regularly couldn't fill it in the top flight -- you simply do not deserve consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Very true. But I don't recall you as a PTS nutjob.. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimeTopFlightPointsTable1888-89to2010-11.html Glossop North End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwichsaint Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Anyway, here's mine: Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea Manchester City Liverpool Everton Southampton Tottenham Hotspur Newcastle United Nottingham Forest Leeds United Sheffield Wednesday Sheffield United Birmingham City Aston Villa Wolverhampton Wanderers Coventry City Stoke City Norwich City Ipswich Town Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea Manchester City Liverpool Everton Southampton Tottenham Hotspur Newcastle United Nottingham Forest Leeds United Sheffield Wednesday Sunderland for me ................... over Sheffield United West Ham .................. will always be 'bigger' than Birmingham City Aston Villa Wolverhampton Wanderers West Brom will always have more about them than ......... plucky Coventry City Stoke City ..... or Leicester? ... spin a coin on that one Norwich City not for me (nice club tho) ..... would rather see a roaring Cardiff City dragon for a bit of variety/balance Ipswich Town Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabrone Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Sunderland would be in with a shout for fan base and history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Glossop North End The Mighty Hillmen!! I was amazed to see them there, but then the old money in Arsenal originated in the Cotton Mills of Glossop, then they (Hill-Wood?) grabbed their stash and headed for the big smoke. Hood down - Anorak off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5string Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Good thread. Based partially on stats, but mainly on 'gut feeling', mine is something like this: Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea Manchester City Liverpool Everton Southampton Tottenham Hotspur Newcastle United Nottingham Forest Leeds United Derby County Sunderland West Ham Aston Villa Wolverhampton Wanderers West Brom Stoke City Coventry City Leicester City Narrowly missed out: Sheffield United Middlesbrough Ipswich Town Bolton Wanderers Maybe should've/could've/would've.... but didn't: Blackburn QPR Swansea Sheffield Wednesday Fulham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 This is a lot of nonsense really. In reality there are about 6-8 teams who are "proper top flight" ie who have pretty much always always been there rarely if ever relegated. Then a load of other teams, probably 25 or so who could all make a case to be "proper top flight" it depends how you measure it. Saints for example have spent more time in top flight since the early 90s than Leeds and Blackburn but they've both won it since then and finished higher than we ever have on several occasions. So do you judge it on time served or success? Swansea have spent more time in top flight than forest in the last 10 years but forest are clearly a bigger club so who is the "proper top flight" out of them? Some have mentioned Sheffield United but they've only spent 6 seasons in top flight in the last 40 years, how are they more deserving than Coventry City who have spent 24 years in top flight in the same period? So like a said, outside of the top 6-8 or so there are probably 25 or so clubs who could claim they're a premier league club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 I can't help but lament the absence of a number of big city clubs - Leeds, Sheff Weds, Forest. Hell, even one of the Bristols... And, as Dalek said, if Villa go down we will have lost a club that were once the aristocrats of English football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 There certainly is some bias there. Everybody who is excluding Leicester, currently top of the league and in their 48th season in the top flight and Bolton with 73 seasons there and 4 consecutive top 8 finishes from 2004 to 2007 might as well exclude Saints too, as this is only our 39th season in the top division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 29 January, 2016 Author Share Posted 29 January, 2016 There certainly is some bias there. Everybody who is excluding Leicester, currently top of the league and in their 48th season in the top flight and Bolton with 73 seasons there and 4 consecutive top 8 finishes from 2004 to 2007 might as well exclude Saints too, as this is only our 39th season in the top division. Well, that's why I made the caveat of my memories and lifetime, roughly from the mid 70's. Leicester have been in the top flight for roughly 14 of the last 40 seasons. Saints at least 27, fwiw. I didn't want to consider all the attendance stats and such like which have been done to death. Or how well Bolton did in 1929 (made that up, may be true, who knows or cares?). I'm probably an average Saints fan, mid 40's, and was just setting out my views on the 'proper' top flight teams in my, personal, experience. Did think about Leicester, and wouldn't argue against them, I put Norwich in my original list, but they could be swapped quite easily. Think I remember Leicester getting promoted and not knowing their history, thought they were a nothing team, but they always seemed to get results against us. Saint Turkish is right, it is a load of nonsense. But, just a bit of fun and giving us a chance to express our thoughts, memories and experiences of football teams in the top flight. No right or wrong answers, but sticking to my original brief of mid 70's onwards might be worthwhile. I know there's plenty of older posters than me, but would be interested to hear from those in their 20's and 30's. I'm in touch with Richard Branson now, and I need to get the space probe list to him Monday week. Anyone have that FA Cup board game (think it was called Wembley)? Basically monopoly with football teams, but it had stickers so you could adjust the board for teams that got relegated out of the league. For some reason I always remember Darlington as the team that would never, ever get anywhere, but I'm pretty sure I thought the same about Wimbledon. And Wigan for that matter, also Bournemouth - never contenders for the space probe, but I'm pretty sure that Swansea were in the same category, but could make some sort of claim to get on board nowadays. And regarding Sunderland and Newcastle - yeah great fanbases I know nowadays, but as a 7 year old southerner I had naff all idea about who they were! So, that's why I've never considered them 'proper' top flight teams. Why should I? Just my own bias! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 I can't help but lament the absence of a number of big city clubs - Leeds, Sheff Weds, Forest. Hell, even one of the Bristols... And, as Dalek said, if Villa go down we will have lost a club that were once the aristocrats of English football. Only two seasons of top division football between them in my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 I would expect Newcastle, Sunderland & Wolves in the 20 to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 Just from my time supporting saints. First game as a toddler in 1985 Man United Liverpool Everton Man City Arsenal Chelsea Spurs West Ham Palace Southampton Coventry Forest Villa Newcastle Sunderland Sheff Weds Leicester WBA Boro Leeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 Can someone help me on this one. The only clubs to have been in the league with an unbroken spell and from the beginning ? Arsenal and Everton ? The only clubs not to have been relegated ? Arsenal, Everton and Bournemouth ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfield Saint Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 I can't help but lament the absence of a number of big city clubs - Leeds, Sheff Weds, Forest. Hell, even one of the Bristols... And, as Dalek said, if Villa go down we will have lost a club that were once the aristocrats of English football. Surely they come in pairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Halo* Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Very true. But I don't recall you as a PTS nutjob.. :-) Ah, then you have missed most of my best work here. 187 Posts in ten years, and probably about half of them in that topic. Quality over Quantity. The Appleton Way. Sunderland for me ................... over Sheffield United West Ham .................. will always be 'bigger' than Birmingham City West Brom will always have more about them than ......... plucky Coventry City Stoke City ..... or Leicester? ... spin a coin on that one Norwich City not for me (nice club tho) ..... would rather see a roaring Cardiff City dragon for a bit of variety/balance I'll give you Sunderland over Sheffield United. I just really don't like Sunderland very much, and love a good Sheffield derby. I like to see as many big derby games as possible in the top flight. West Ham -- their ommission was an oversight on my part. Agree they should probably be in there, but I'm keeping Birmingham, so you can take out my Ipswich. The Coventry side I remember in the top flight growing up, used to play with real fire and passion, used to love the atmosphere at Highfield Road, and they were often a good side to watch, even when they were struggling. They were up there with us all the way through my childhood and teens, so I feel they belong there. West Brom have always either just bored the f*ck out of me, or been a really dirty negative side, then became a typical yo-yo club, so for those reasons, they missed the cut. I grew up with the Norwich City who were a regular top flight side, and achieved two 3rd place finishes, a 4th and a 5th in that time. They played a wonderful slick passing brand of football and exciting wing play, in the days of Ruel Fox, Jeremy Goss, Trevor Putney, Chris Sutton, Dale Gordon, Robert Fleck etc. For me that Norwich team definitely stays. Stoke / Leicester, as you say, flip a coin, but I used to travel away with my Dad a lot when I was younger and he was in better health -- and the atmosphere at the old Victoria Ground always got my attention. Always felt like we were visiting a 'proper club'. I didn't get that same intensity from Filbert Street, plus Leicester weren't up there with us as much as Stoke in my formative years, so I'll keep my Stoke. It's logical that my childhood and teens years effectively established my own expectations as to what was the footballing 'norm'. It's a natural progression that those clubs who spent most of our 27 unbroken years in the top flight with us whilst growing up through those times, will be the ones we remember as the biggest. A forum like this one spanning such a wide age range, is going to have a lot of different answers to this question. I'm happy enough that mine are at least also 'in line' with the definitions of the OP. Some have mentioned Sheffield United but they've only spent 6 seasons in top flight in the last 40 years, how are they more deserving than Coventry City who have spent 24 years in top flight in the same period? I mentioned Sheffield United. I also included Coventry. As you say, they are deserving, and definitely if it was them or Sheff Utd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawillwill Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 http://www.myfootballfacts.com/All-TimeTopFlightPointsTable1888-89to2010-11.html Darwen's away record is a bit rubbish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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