The Academy, how many PL quality players has and how often?

[norwaysaint]

Our academy is without doubt a success. It has produced top quality players, as well as others who have had decent careers in lower leagues.

 

However, people seem to have got a bit carried away with what that means and seem to think that it involves producing a couple of new prospects every season. Has it ever been that way? I was trying to think of what our success rate has actually been and how often we have ever actually produced players capable of playing regularly at PL level. I'll randomly take eight first team matches as a breakthrough and I'll randomly start with 1998 as the first player that jumped into my head was Bridge, so for the purposes of having to start somewhere:

 

1998- Bridge

1999

2000

2001

2002

2003

2004

2005 Baird (first year he got past 4 appearances, but had played FA Cup final), Dyer, Surman, Walcott

2006 Bale, Best (if we're counting him as PL standard)

2007

2008 Lallana

2009

2010 Ox

2011

2012 Shaw, JWP

2013 Chambers

2014' Reed (If we're taking him as a PL quality player)

2015 Targett

2016

 

Is that about it? Can anyone fill in gaps with genuine PL quality players that were actually brought through by us? Players like Mike Williamson and Garry Monk didn't reach that level with us. So producing Chambers and Targett in the last four years isn't much different to the four years before that or the four years before that. The only time more have come through was when we were relegated and had little money. If we bring through a player next year, we are as productive as we've ever been.

 

This is the production rate of a successful academy. People need to stop getting carried away with the idea of a "conveyor belt", because it's never really been that way. Koeman saying only a couple of players were ready for the first team means he was saying it's the same as it's always been and was almost certainly in response to people thinking there must be a whole crop of youngsters ready for the PL. There aren't and there never have been.

[Nexstar]

I don't think averaging one new PL-standard player a year for the last 12 years is something to be sniffed at.

 

A similar breakdown for the the other 19 PL clubs would probably put this in starker contrast.

[The9]

There's already a long-running and occasionally updated thread about the Academy products.

 

The link to which I have removed. See below.

Edited 21 January, 2016 by The9

[The9]

Link removed due to whininess.

Edited 21 January, 2016 by The9

[norwaysaint]

I don't think averaging one new PL-standard player a year for the last 12 years is something to be sniffed at.

 

A similar breakdown for the the other 19 PL clubs would probably put this in starker contrast.

 

I think it's superb, but I'm fed up with comments about the academy not producing at the moment. It's producing at about the same rate as it always has and that is not out of line with Koeman's recent comments.

[Baird of the land]

Personally i think Reeves was a good little player. Was got rid in rush to sign new players on arriving in Prem. Has shown for several years at MK Dons a very good standard. Wouldn't be surprised to see him end up in prem somwewhere.

Prior to relegation there was Cranie, who looked promising in brief cameo in prem. Who knows what would have happened to him with right development.

There was also Matt Mills who made some pretty disastrous moves including to City and then across Championship. Definitely think he could have been Prem player with right guidance.

 

Your list is absent the likes of Gallagher who burst on the scene on Prem and did well but has since been troubled by injury coupled with the closure of the route to the first team.

 

Personally the idea of finding a Le Tiss/bale/walcott every season if fanciful but you need to be giving youngsters some opportunities over the course of the season.

We'll never know if Stephens/Seager/Reed if they are not given a opportunities in our team.

Even if you don't find a superstar you may find a solid premier league squad player.

[norwaysaint]

 

A big list of players, whether they made it in the PL or not, whether we got them there or not and with no reference to how often it happened.

 

That's a very different kind of list and a very different point, which is just going to confuse what I was pointing out, which was frequency of PL talent produced. That hasn't added anything to my original list and hasn't made anything clearer. I'm pretty sure that under the weight of that flabby post my original point will be lost.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

That's a very different kind of list and a very different point, which is just going to confuse what I was pointing out, which was frequency of PL talent produced. That hasn't added anything to my original list and hasn't made anything clearer. I'm pretty sure that under the weight of that flabby post my original point will be lost.

 

If you want to focus on production then other clubs will match us in terms of first team players in the Premier League.

 

If you want to focus on how many Academy players play for top half (or maybe Top 6) teams in the Premier League then very few will match us.

 

If you want to focus on sale value of those players then no-one is close to us.

 

Depends what metric you want to use to define success.

[The9]

That's a very different kind of list and a very different point, which is just going to confuse what I was pointing out, which was frequency of PL talent produced. That hasn't added anything to my original list and hasn't made anything clearer. I'm pretty sure that under the weight of that flabby post my original point will be lost.

 

It gives you a list of all of our Academy products over the past 10 years or so - which makes it incredibly easy to work out who came through when.

 

But if you want to be p155y about it, I'll delete the link and you can work it out for yourself. Done.

[VectisSaint]

Think there is a point being missed here. Comparing what is happening now with 1998-2011 is misleading. Since the Elite Player Performance Plan was introduced the access our Academy has to players (because we are category A) is far greater than it ever was before (when we were limited to taking on players who lived within 90 minutes of Southampton, or in our case also of Bath). Now we have the [possibility of scouting young players anywhere, and the funding available is far, far greater than ever before. Yet there is little tangible evidence that our Academy has improved in any way, in fact the opposite appears to be true. If we are truly one of the best academies in the country then we should be competing to compete in the UEFA Youth competitions (yes, there is access outside of the Champs League teams, Middlesbro are competing in the U18s this season as a result of winning the U18s title last season). Playing u18/u21 football is no substitute for playing 1st team football, but experience in top competitions is a major step in the right direction. Yet our Academy u18/u21 teams seem to be going backwards in terms of performance in the leagues. This means we are less and less likely to attract the best young talent in the future even if we do maintain our Category A Status and they will go elsewhere (even good local kids). Its the difference between the perception of our Academy as put forward by Ralph and Les and the reality. Hopefully the club are now starting to address this by signing new young players to bring our academy teams up to a higher standard, the way we used to a few years ago (with Blackstock, Best etc). Unless we have a higher standard of player in our academy the less likely it is for players to break through into the first team.

[The9]

Think there is a point being missed here. Comparing what is happening now with 1998-2011 is misleading. Since the Elite Player Performance Plan was introduced the access our Academy has to players (because we are category A) is far greater than it ever was before (when we were limited to taking on players who lived within 90 minutes of Southampton, or in our case also of Bath). Now we have the [possibility of scouting young players anywhere, and the funding available is far, far greater than ever before. Yet there is little tangible evidence that our Academy has improved in any way, in fact the opposite appears to be true. If we are truly one of the best academies in the country then we should be competing to compete in the UEFA Youth competitions (yes, there is access outside of the Champs League teams, Middlesbro are competing in the U18s this season as a result of winning the U18s title last season). Playing u18/u21 football is no substitute for playing 1st team football, but experience in top competitions is a major step in the right direction. Yet our Academy u18/u21 teams seem to be going backwards in terms of performance in the leagues. This means we are less and less likely to attract the best young talent in the future even if we do maintain our Category A Status and they will go elsewhere (even good local kids). Its the difference between the perception of our Academy as put forward by Ralph and Les and the reality. Hopefully the club are now starting to address this by signing new young players to bring our academy teams up to a higher standard, the way we used to a few years ago (with Blackstock, Best etc). Unless we have a higher standard of player in our academy the less likely it is for players to break through into the first team.

 

Our U-8s to U-12s might be superb due to the EPPP, but that's not going to help the teams recruited in the 2007-2010 period much.

 

Plus we've still got an Academy full of Championship and L1 prospects like we always have had, along with a few Prem players - the fact is that apart from the top half Prem-level players they'll probably have to sign for someone else to prove that unless we get relegated again. There's also little point in recruiting into the U16s group other than for absolutely can't miss prospects, because those players are already expensive or with the top 6 sides, and the whole point of this is cheap development.

 

You've missed the fact that playing for the U18s in UEFA competitions is something that kids at big clubs who never get a game for the first team do (or in Middlesbrough's case, kids who only need to be Championship standard to play for the first team anyway). Aside from the Boro ones, *they're* the kind of players Saints sign a handful of for under £5m aged 22 when they're getting booted out the other side and are fed up of sitting on the bench. It gives better results (Bertrand and Romeu seem to be proving this so far) as it's a lower risk to pick up the top "nearlies" from CL sides for a few million and the experience they've gained, than it is to spend £2m on a 16 year old who's never been at that level and try and get him there.

 

Saints have brought through a pile of top level players in the past 10 years and that reputation won't go away just because we only make, say, 50% of the U18s into Championship or L1 players in the long run. One of the reasons the sides are weak is because the age groups progressed ahead where the likes of Shaw or Chambers went into the squad.

[ecuk268]

Very few Academy players make it through to their 1st teams.

 

Saints are probably better than most.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/21/academy-graduates-arsenal-illusion-flawed-system

[CylonKing]

Would you include Kenwynne Jones on the list of Academy players we brought through?

[CylonKing]

And what about Andrew Surman?

[VectisSaint]

Saints have brought through a pile of top level players in the past 10 years and that reputation won't go away just because we only make, say, 50% of the U18s into Championship or L1 players in the long run.

Unfortunately that is exactly what will happen if our academy players do not make it through to the PL, and it is clearly already happening. Thankfully the Club seem to have cottoned on to the idea that they do after all have to go further afield to pick up the youngsters to do what they (the Club) believed would happen anyway a couple of years back and that our Academy has actually not been very good relative speaking in the last 2 years or so. Sadly we no longer have a man in charge with the vision of Georges Prost and our coaches (at u18/u21) seem to be at best very average. You seem to have the view that we carry on doing what we did before and all will be well, but its not like that, the Academy has to progress and change hugely just to maintain the reputation and to keep the top talent joining us rather than our competitors (and here I mean Clubs like Boro, rather than Chelsea or Man City).

[Saint IQ]

Blackstock, Surman and Kenwyne Jones? If you're including Best you can include them

[david in sweden]

an interesting list, but as the criteria was was those who have played with some success in the Premier League.....there are two candidates who don't actually qualify,

....but nevertheless are worth an what we might call "an Honourable mention" , I refer to :

 

Martin Cranie (former Academy player) who left Saints around 10 years ago, at a time when " Manager of the Month " had quite different meaning for Saints.

Has moved around a few clubs since, but now clocked up over 250 League games. A very good young player, who played 39 games for England youth sides U17- U21.

and

Matt Mills (Crainie's CB partner in the Academy) also left Saints in that period of turmoil. Now 29, he has played over 300 League games (most in the Championship) and scored 22 goals (a respectable tally for a defender), who also gained afew England caps at youth level.

 

as did his younger brother Joseph (Fish) Mills. After leaving Saints, Joseph rarely played at a higher level than L1, but has nevertheless has clocked over 130 League games with various clubs.

 

As has been stated by others on here - not every Academy lad makes a career in football, but even some of those who never play at Prem.level do at least have a career of sorts, that is a bit above National League standard.

Edited 22 January, 2016 by david in sweden

[Maggie May]

Oh come on, Kenwyne was hardly an academy product.

[norwaysaint]

Blackstock, Surman and Kenwyne Jones? If you're including Best you can include them

 

Well, Blackstock never made it as a PL player, so doesn't count, Surman is in the list at the top already, so doesn't need adding and Jones was 20 when he came to us and wasn't a product of the academy, but otherwise, good point!

 

Your list is absent the likes of Gallagher

 

He still hasn't really made it though has he? Maybe in time, but we can't claim him as a success yet.

 

Cranie and Mills also never made it as PL players, which is the topic of the thread.

[VectisSaint]

Well, Blackstock never made it as a PL player, so doesn't count, Surman is in the list at the top already, so doesn't need adding and Jones was 20 when he came to us and wasn't a product of the academy, but otherwise, good point!

 

 

 

He still hasn't really made it though has he? Maybe in time, but we can't claim him as a success yet.

Cranie and Mills also never made it as PL players, which is the topic of the thread.

Blackstock played 9 PL matches for us, your criteria in the original post was 8 as a breakthrough. So he should count.

Kenwyne was 19 when he joined us, was considered as youth development at the time when Rupert brought him in. Just because he turned out to be a **** doesn't preclude him.

Gallagher has made 20 PL appearances so under your criteria he should count

Agree about Crainie and Mills, Crainie is an object lesson of how to blow the talent of someone who was regularly England U21 Captain. Thanks partly to Arry.

[norwaysaint]

I can see your point, but I would count Jones a s a young player and not an academy product.

 

Gallagher has a lot of appearances, but very few meaningful amounts of time on the pitch, so I didn't count him and still wouldn't say he'd made it, same as Blackstock, who we tried but who failed to make it. The eight matches I mentioned, I really meant as a sign of which season they actually broke through in (like Baird playing in a cup final, but only three times in total that season), rather than whether or not they actually made it in the PL, but I can see why it wasn't clear.

 

Blackstock and Gallagher, in my opinion, have not become PL players.

[Saint IQ]

Well, Blackstock never made it as a PL player, so doesn't count, Surman is in the list at the top already, so doesn't need adding and Jones was 20 when he came to us and wasn't a product of the academy, but otherwise, good point!

 

 

 

He still hasn't really made it though has he? Maybe in time, but we can't claim him as a success yet.

 

Cranie and Mills also never made it as PL players, which is the topic of the thread.

 

lol didn't see Surman there and thought it was just players we had in our youth teams who played for us in the top divison, I apologise

[david in sweden]

I can see your point, but I would count Jones a s a young player and not an academy product.

 

Gallagher has a lot of appearances, but very few meaningful amounts of time on the pitch, so I didn't count him and still wouldn't say he'd made it,.

 

 

Getting first team games on the strength of talent is a rather sketchy area in Sam's case. He was brought in because Pochettino had no other strikers at the time.

 

Osvaldo had blown his top and thumped Fonte (was suspended by club) and Jay Rod ....in his life's form ...got injured, whilst Rickie Lambert was on a goal famine.

 

I really do feel pi**ed about Poch getting the credit for "developing Saints youth players " when he only started Sam twice in games (one of which he was subbed) and the other 18 times he only got the regulation 10 mins. sub. apps.near the end. The other goal Sam scored was in the 97th minute of a game we had already won.

 

Since when it's gone pear-shaped for the lad. He need a genuine "loan out " as he's hardly likely to even make the Saints bench with the strike force we have now.

[david in sweden]

back reading the OP....I recalled a few names who.....didn't quite make.....it to our first team, but today's item about Mike Williamson's move to Wolves hit a memory.

 

Mike Willamson (along with Garry Monk, who was a bit older) were two promising young CB's on Saints books around 15 years ago, but Williamson's story is a warning to those who think the next step from youth football is the Premier League.

Both named were unfortunate enough to be at the club at a time when we had a succession of great CB's (Dean Richards, Michael Svensson and Claus Lundekvam) and thus their chances of playing regularly were almost zero.

 

Williamson was a success at Torquay (2001) and bought by Saints (rumoured @ £100K)...after he had played only a handful of games, and like Williamson, he was loaned back to Torquay for a while and then retuned to Saints before going on loan-outs with Doncaster and Wycombe, where manager Tony Adams (yes that one) signed him permanently and he played over 100 games for them, and finally left Saints without ever playing a first team game.

 

Later moves to Watford and ...Pompey (who thankfully he never played for)... led to an eventual move to Newcastle in 2010. Mike clocked up 150 games for Newcastle before being loaned out to Wolves, a move that become permanent this week. Now at 32, he has the chance to help Wolves over the line and perhaps.... see them win a play-off place back up to the Prem.

 

Garry Monk's story is not disimilar. Ironically he was also a youth product at Torquay when Saints had signed him in 1995, and like Williamson was loaned back to Torquay for a while. Back at Saints, his progress (or lack of it) saw him appear in only a dozen Prem. games between 1998-2004, in between loan outs to Stockport, Oxford, Sheff.Wed. and Barnsley and finally to Swansea in 2004, at which time he officially left Saints' playing staff.

 

He arrived at Swansea at a time when they were struggling to stay in L2, but having survived Garry became the mainstay of the Swans defence for around 10 years, and he finally made it back to the Prem.and later became their manager. His recent sacking was a sad, but predictable outcome of a run of poor results. He must surely rank in the new generation of young managers who have fallen by the wayside when a Club's Board panic, but Garry will surely re-appear at some point in the future.

Edited 29 January, 2016 by david in sweden