Koeman unimpressed by academy players

[CB Fry]

Distinct lack of people grizzling about how Ryan Seager wasn't used as an option off the bench today.

 

Fingers crossed he gets blooded next week instead and those horrid senior players blocking his pathway are shoved aside.

[Baird of the land]

Distinct lack of people grizzling about how Ryan Seager wasn't used as an option off the bench today.

 

Fingers crossed he gets blooded next week instead and those horrid senior players blocking his pathway are shoved aside.

 

Since we went out and spent millions on a new attackers i think everyone is aware Seager's further down the pecking order.

If we suddenly get a spate of injuries or sell Pelle that might change.

That doesn't mean it wasn't crazy he wasn't given a chance when we were badly struggling against Norwich or Palace with few attacking options available imo.

[Saint Charlie]

U21s being bossd by Huddersfield so far in the U21 Cup. Currently 1-0 down but they have hit the bar and had most of the play.

 

From this team its hard to see anyone really making it in the first team aside from Reed and maybe Gazza.

 

With the U18s having lost 7 (seven) in a row it seems Koeman probably had a point.

 

Koeman and his staff are there. Nobody will have impressed.

Edited 25 January, 2016 by Saint Charlie

[Give it to Ron]

Don't agree full backs decent as is Jones

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lallana's Left Peg]

U21s being bossd by Huddersfield so far in the U21 Cup. Currently 1-0 down but they have hit the bar and had most of the play.

 

From this team its hard to see anyone really making it in the first team aside from Reed and maybe Gazza.

 

With the U18s having lost 7 (seven) in a row it seems Koeman probably had a point.

 

Koeman and his staff are there. Nobody will have impressed.

 

Huddersfield are a big, strong and quick team. At this level it makes a big difference. But it is no indicator of how good a player is in the grand scheme of things - when smaller and lighter players mature physically then it is technical ability that comes to the fore.

 

I don't want to take anything away from Huddersfield as they are playing well and are by far the better team, but I'm not quick to judge our kids when they play against bigger teams (as they often do). I was at Blackburn last season for the first leg of the final for this cup and I saw them kick lumps out of us at times and their team was made up of big lads - the likes of Hesketh was a child among giants and struggled to make an impression.

 

That said, the balance of our team is rubbish tonight. Sims and Gallagher not offering much and distribution from the back is poor. Stephens looking a bit shaky to me, which is uncharacteristic for him.

[Saint Charlie]

Don't agree full backs decent as is Jones

 

 

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Jones is younger and looks decent but Muagbi definitely nowhere near first team level.

 

Debayo better but still miles off Targett for example.

 

Gape isn't first team quality, Sims a headless chicken at the moment, Hesketh too weak and doesn't get involved enough, Gallagher so low on confidence.

 

Seager hard to judge as obvious finishing quality but neither pacy nor very strong/physical so always going to be tough.

[Give it to Ron]

Of course they are not first team level yet but what's the rush? JWP and Targett have taken a while to get going and so will they.

I am not ready to write them off yet

 

 

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[johnnyboy]

U21s being bossd by Huddersfield so far in the U21 Cup. Currently 1-0 down but they have hit the bar and had most of the play.

 

From this team its hard to see anyone really making it in the first team aside from Reed and maybe Gazza.

 

With the U18s having lost 7 (seven) in a row it seems Koeman probably had a point.

 

Koeman and his staff are there. Nobody will have impressed.

 

Thank fug you spelt 7 for me as I would never have known what you were on about !

[Give it to Ron]

Of course they are not first team level yet but what's the rush? JWP and Targett have taken a while to get going and so will they.

I am not ready to write them off yet

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Saint Charlie]

Of course they are not first team level yet but what's the rush? JWP and Targett have taken a while to get going and so will they.

I am not ready to write them off yet

 

 

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JWP and Targett's class stood out though. Some don't have that level of ability. A few like Gape are 20 or so. Do you wait until they are 23 like Isgrove and then have to loan them out to stop blocking the pathway lower down?

 

Given the ratio of academy players who do become first team players then on a couple playing tonight will be, and its easy to see the ones who have no chance!

[Saint Charlie]

Thank fug you spelt 7 for me as I would never have known what you were on about !

Vidiprinter style!

[hypochondriac]

2-0

[Saint Charlie]

2-0 Hudds now.

 

Bit of a losing habit developing in the Academy sides?

 

At 18s and 21 level there must be a pretty poor win % this season.

[angelman]

Cue St. Charlie being his usual pessimistic self. Look at it this way old boy, at least the youngsters are doing ****, as you currently can't whinge too much about the 1st XI (although wait until we lose at Arsenal and you can be back on form).

[Saint Charlie]

Cue St. Charlie being his usual pessimistic self. Look at it this way old boy, at least the youngsters are doing ****, as you currently can't whinge too much about the 1st XI (although wait until we lose at Arsenal and you can be back on form).

Whats pessimistic? The results are facts. Koeman also has said the same. Is he pessimistic?

 

The U18s have lost 7 in a row, so worth a talking point IMO for a club that bases most of its PR on the Academy.

 

Buzzing with the first team, obviously. But this thread has nothing to do with it.

 

You also said yourself it doesn't look great in terms of production line here - unless you forgot?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2299728

 

But there was a different feeling around the club with regards the academy players. They may only have gotten on to the bench or on the pitch for a minute or two, but you could look down and think "hey, it looks good that the next crop is coming along nicely". But now, you look down and think whether anyone is going to come through and are any ready for the 1st XI now? Am I the only one who thinks like this? Maybe I'm wrong and maybe there is a bit of revisionism going on.

 

 

 

Taking things as they stand today, Reed might well be the only one, but would you have him over any of those who currently occupy the midfield?

 

 

 

Having said that, we did have 2 academy players yesterday in Targett and JWP on the pitch, so all is not lost. Targett was brought through in to the PL by RK, and lately seems to be first choice in the 3-5-2 (or whatever it is) formation. Being pragmatic about things, and acknowledging the competition that you face in the PL, maybe 2 or 3 is the most one can realistically expect. While it would be lovely (and make sense business wise) to have 50%+, that is a little unrealistic.

Edited 25 January, 2016 by Saint Charlie

[Lallana's Left Peg]

2-0 Hudds now.

 

Bit of a losing habit developing in the Academy sides?

 

At 18s and 21 level there must be a pretty poor win % this season.

 

Losing habits do not concern me as much as a lack of talent.

 

Lots of other clubs spend more on their Academies - particularly the purchase of talent. Our talent is usually sourced through our recruitment rather than scouting of other clubs talent and buying them. There aren't too many we buy. Stephens, Gallagher and Johnson spring to mind.

 

Ignore the U18's for now - they miss Slattery (done for the season I believe) and they just aren't very good - their recruitment was at a time when the club wasn't in a good place.

 

I believe there was a recent article in the media that suggested the club is going to start to buy some players for the Academy due to the delta that exists with talent at the moment. We're doing really well in the U16' downwards in terms of talent it's just this little phase that we need to understand will be dry - and that will be highlighted more by the big numbers we had only a few years ago.

[del boy]

2-0

Not sure how I've kept watching this really, still the optimist.

 

it gives me no pleasure to say it looks a bit like the Junior school end of term dads v boys match

 

btw their right back is very good

 

COYU21S

[Saint Charlie]

Not sure how I've kept watching this really, still the optimist.

 

it gives me no pleasure to say it looks a bit like the Junior school end of term dads v boys match

 

btw their right back is very good

 

COYU21S

Watching it only really confirms Koeman's comments. Reed the only outfielder who stands out.

[corky morris]

Just watched the game & have to say we were very very poor. Not one player comes out of that with any credit. Reed, Gallagher, Stephens & Gazzaniga as senior under 21's were undone on numerous occasions. Seager, Hesketh & Sims were not really in the game & were lacking quality. Debayo & Mugabi were very bad. Can see why RK doesn't rate them on that performance.

[doddisalegend]

This wouldn't be happening if Poch was here with his magic touch.....

[Lets B Avenue]

I'm glad they got themselves knocked out of the cup. They can concentrate instead on avoiding relegation.

[WealdSaint]

yes, not very convincing tonight sadly

 

I think Ryan Seagar needs to go out on loan

[beatlesaint]

Watching it only really confirms Koeman's comments. Reed the only outfielder who stands out.

 

He's been around enough to know what he's talking about. If they aren't good enough they aren't good enough, wether it's fitting with The Southampton Way or not. Nobody can have a production line that works every single year in football.

[Dalek2003]

I'm glad they got themselves knocked out of the cup. They can concentrate instead on avoiding relegation.

 

Now now...

[angelman]

Whats pessimistic? The results are facts. Koeman also has said the same. Is he pessimistic?

 

The U18s have lost 7 in a row, so worth a talking point IMO for a club that bases most of its PR on the Academy.

 

Buzzing with the first team, obviously. But this thread has nothing to do with it.

 

You also said yourself it doesn't look great in terms of production line here - unless you forgot?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2299728

 

I know what I said, but I don't go bedwetting all the time like you seem to do. Moan at this, moan at that at every single chance you get. Sometimes when things are going badly, it would be refreshing if you didn't have to gleefully tell us all about it.

[egg]

I was at last night's game. We were shocking, not one player did himself justice except perhaps Jones at the back. Debayo at lb was terrible and put in the worst corners I've seen in ages. He was by no means our worst player but I'm singling him out cos of the deadballs. Not much to say about the others.

 

Gallagher - the kid had a terrible time after his breakthrough season and went on loan to get some playing time and regain his confidence. Sadly he barely got a kick and on that performance (albeit shoved out wide) he's come back worse than he left.

 

Stevens doesn't appear to have progressed either.

 

The club had high hopes for Sims and Hesketh but they look miles away from being able to step up.

[capitalsaint]

I was at last night's game. We were shocking, not one player did himself justice except perhaps Jones at the back. Debayo at lb was terrible and put in the worst corners I've seen in ages. He was by no means our worst player but I'm singling him out cos of the deadballs. Not much to say about the others.

 

Gallagher - the kid had a terrible time after his breakthrough season and went on loan to get some playing time and regain his confidence. Sadly he barely got a kick and on that performance (albeit shoved out wide) he's come back worse than he left.

 

Stevens doesn't appear to have progressed either.

 

The club had high hopes for Sims and Hesketh but they look miles away from being able to step up.

 

Same here; agree with everything you've said.

 

Even for free that match was a waste of money.

[doddisalegend]

I was at last night's game. We were shocking, not one player did himself justice except perhaps Jones at the back. Debayo at lb was terrible and put in the worst corners I've seen in ages. He was by no means our worst player but I'm singling him out cos of the deadballs. Not much to say about the others.

 

 

 

 

 

Gallagher - the kid had a terrible time after his breakthrough season and went on loan to get some playing time and regain his confidence. Sadly he barely got a kick and on that performance (albeit shoved out wide) he's come back worse than he left.

 

 

 

 

 

Stevens doesn't appear to have progressed either.

 

 

 

 

 

The club had high hopes for Sims and Hesketh but they look miles away from being able to step up.

 

 

 

Isn't Sims playing in a higher age group than his age though? He is still pretty young iirc but when I've seen him he has looked pretty good.

[Give it to Ron]

I am not sure what the idea is in the academy to put centre forwards out wide. Gallagher played in the centre and did well in games I saw early in his career yet now

is being shoved out wide where is like a fish out of water.

Olumola? is the same when he plays up they put him out wide? Just maybe dropping Hesketh and playing 2 up with Seagar and Gallagher is worth a go instead of continuing with a style that isn't working?

[disconnect]

Was pretty awful although Alfie Jones has looked decent on a few occasions (especially coming up an age) and was ok last night. What happened to Wood who looked pretty good early in the season?

 

Something that does strike me is how much smaller most of our players (apart from the defence) are compared to other teams. Obviously Gallaghers a big lad, but most of the others barely seem to scrape 5'6! We're not exactly powering through teams...

[egg]

Isn't Sims playing in a higher age group than his age though? He is still pretty young iirc but when I've seen him he has looked pretty good.

 

To be fair he is a young under 21. However, a year or so ago the club saw him as the next to roll off the production line but he just hasn't kicked on. He may come good but a talented under 21 should look good at home to Huddersfield! Ditto Hesketh.

 

I don't want to sound like ART but I do wander what's amiss. Fundamentally there is definitely a lack of talent in this group of players, but coaching and/or man managemnet/motivation seems to be lacking as well.

[doddisalegend]

To be fair he is a young under 21. However, a year or so ago the club saw him as the next to roll off the production line but he just hasn't kicked on. He may come good but a talented under 21 should look good at home to Huddersfield! Ditto Hesketh.

 

I don't want to sound like ART but I do wander what's amiss. Fundamentally there is definitely a lack of talent in this group of players, but coaching and/or man managemnet/motivation seems to be lacking as well.

 

I did go back and check his age the kid is only 18 so still time for him to kick on yet.

[david in sweden]

don't think Ronald is likely to change his opinion much after last night's poor showing.

 

Ryan Seager is their only established striker and it took 60 minutes to get the ball to him.

[david in sweden]

To be fair he is a young under 21. However, a year or so ago the club saw him as the next to roll off the production line but he just hasn't kicked on. He may come good but a talented under 21 should look good at home to Huddersfield! Ditto Hesketh.

 

I don't want to sound like ART but I do wander what's amiss. Fundamentally there is definitely a lack of talent in this group of players, but coaching

and/or man managemnet/motivation seems to be lacking as well.

 

some good points, but they're not managing men, but boys. and some of them have only moved up this season.

[Nordic Saint]

To be fair he is a young under 21. However, a year or so ago the club saw him as the next to roll off the production line but he just hasn't kicked on. He may come good but a talented under 21 should look good at home to Huddersfield! Ditto Hesketh.

 

I don't want to sound like ART but I do wander what's amiss. Fundamentally there is definitely a lack of talent in this group of players, but coaching and/or man managemnet/motivation seems to be lacking as well.

 

I agree. The U21 team looked very badly coached and organised last night. Most of the players who looked so promising a year or two ago, like Sims and Hesketh, are going backwards. There doesn't seem to be the same high level of player development under Hunter and Jahdi that there was under Dodd and Williams. If Reed doesn't want to bring them back, perhaps we could poach the Huddersfield U21 coach?

[Helpathand]

Excellent post Nordic Saint , Dodd and Williams knew how to coach these lads to maximise the talent that they Posses , Hunter has not played professional football so cannot relate to the lads in anyway , Limerick was idea for the u16 making the game enjoyable letting them play with freedom before moving up to Dodd where the fine tuning would take place . All the youth players that saints have had the joy to watch have Dodd and Williams to thank and it was this success that became their undoing. Hunter now has total control over every aspect off the youth academy and his archaic thoughts on player development as well as his tactical naivety is obvious for all close to the age groups to see , Who else would play a six foot 4 striker on the wing then remove him leaving a forward line all under six feet in a cup game 2-0 down , The academy will keep going backwards if the talent is Continually suffocated ,

[Saint_clark]

Wasn't Martin Hunter involved long before Dodd and Williams?

[Helpathand]

Wikipedia shows Dodd to have joined academy before Hunter.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Dodd and Williams were managing and coaching the U18's.

 

The U21's were always Martin Hunter's.

 

When Dodd and Williams left we appointed Anthony Limbrick as U18 Manager. He was previously U16 Manager and coach. The U18 intake the year he was appointed Manager wasn't very good (and considerably supplemented with rejects from other Academies) so the thinking that was for continuity he would step up. He was a highly thought of as a coach but not really known as a Manager. Towards the end of the season Craig Fleming came in to assist him because whilst he was a good coach there was an element of inexperience as a senior professional (or exposed to that part of the game) that he never had and it was impacting getting that age group ready mentally etc. for the professional game. Quite what made the Director of Football at Lowestoft Town suitable for U18 coaching I am not sure about but obviously the club had an idea and Fleming was an ex-pro.

 

Then in the summer Limbrick went back to Australia and Fleming was appointed U18 Manager. Again a strange move but maybe (and this is where I am guessing) the club knew the intake (Slattery aside) wasn't up to much so no point rushing an appointment.

 

The summer we may see some movement with the U16's having some very good players and the U18's should be a little better (but don't expect 'golden generation' type output). I think we can do better than Craig Fleming with our reputation but that may be unfair of me - lets see what happens.

 

The club asked Dodd and Williams to move on as they wanted a slightly more modern approach to coaching and management of the players. The issue is that all the players liked Dodd and Williams. I think we have suffered at U18 level because they moved on and subsequent events as a consequence but lets not pretend that Dodd and Williams took average player and made them great. They had Stephens, Turnbull, Reed, JWP, Shaw, Chambers etc. They played their part but they were blessed with great players as well.

[Helpathand]

Not sure they were moved on for a modern approach as they usually played a high pressing game as opposed to virtually 10 men behind the ball and hope to nick a goal approach taken by Hunter , not sure how Fleming coaches but as he is Hunters mate from his Norwich days I doubt there is much difference , Limerick ( and now I'm guessing ) was to be pushed back down to the lower age group so decided to move on , I'm led to believe back over here . I accept your point on taking average players and making them great but no one can say how good these boys would been without their input . If the club have decided to use average coaches because off the poor standard coming through, then Matt Hayle will have his work cut out trying to promote the academy ( parents and agents talk ) , incidentally I heard on talk sport that Man United U18 have lost 11 in a row , their worst ever run of defeats , they had a change of academy staff also , and don't expect they get the rejects .

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Not sure they were moved on for a modern approach as they usually played a high pressing game as opposed to virtually 10 men behind the ball and hope to nick a goal approach taken by Hunter , not sure how Fleming coaches but as he is Hunters mate from his Norwich days I doubt there is much difference , Limerick ( and now I'm guessing ) was to be pushed back down to the lower age group so decided to move on , I'm led to believe back over here . I accept your point on taking average players and making them great but no one can say how good these boys would been without their input . If the club have decided to use average coaches because off the poor standard coming through, then Matt Hayle will have his work cut out trying to promote the academy ( parents and agents talk ) , incidentally I heard on talk sport that Man United U18 have lost 11 in a row , their worst ever run of defeats , they had a change of academy staff also , and don't expect they get the rejects .

 

The U21's and U18's only pressed more when we had Pochettino at the club. They did it to align with what they were seeing in the first team. Also, crucially, they did it with better players in the team. The U21's and U18's do not have the talent to do this now - they would be picked off far more easily and it would result in a lot of poor performances.

 

I don't know of Hunter's and Fleming's past but if that is what means Fleming is now U18 Manager then I don't think it has worked out too well.

 

The reason Man Utd's Academy is in a terrible state is in part due to their own negligence and in part due to how aggressive Man City have been. An example of the latter is that they now offer scholarships to a private school for kids who join their Academy - and they get to keep that scholarship even if they are released. And that is just an example of the sort of money they are throwing at recruiting good prospects in the area.

[Saint Charlie]

U18s lost 4-0 to Arsenal yesterday.

 

Think that is 8 losses in a row which is awful.

 

Will probably need to buy in some talent at some stage.

 

Also doesn't help the talented ones to develop as they are playing with inferior players and confidence must be low.

Edited 7 February, 2016 by Saint Charlie

[Helpathand]

Make that 9 in a row , they had the cup lost also , better to get in quality coaching instead .

[VectisSaint]

Make that 9 in a row , they had the cup lost also , better to get in quality coaching instead .

 

Its 10 actually, including the Cup, according to the OS. Good job there is no relegation. Still ManU are even worse.

[trousers]

Southampton FC ‏@SouthamptonFC

#SaintsFC goalkeeper Adam Parkes debuts for @england's under-17s against Portugal at the Algarve Tournament:

 

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Is that Patrick Kluivert's son starting for Holland?

[Saint86]

If we have the same number of england under 17 players as Brentford, Ipswich (less than), Hull, West Brom (less than) etc etc etc then something is worrying wrong with the youth setup at that level. That is based on first glance but I expected saints to have a better representation than that. Makes you wonder what is coming through behind calum's lot.

[suewhistle]

under 21s playing tonight:

[Daft Kerplunk]

The shame (with that England team) is that there is only one Chelsea player there and they come south and nick players who probably should really join us and develop properly.

[Saint Charlie]

Absolute banger from Hesketh!