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Koeman unimpressed by academy players


SuperSAINT

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So...

 

- If Koeman was the manager in 2012/13 and had the choice between Shaw or Fox; you think he'd pick Fox?

- If Koeman was the manager in 2013/14 and Clyne was injured, who from our squad that season do you think he'd play at right back instead of Chambers?

- If Koeman was the manager in 2013/14 and Osvaldo, Lambert and Rodriguez were our only senior strikers and combinations of them were missing at different points of the season, who do you think at the club he'd have used other than Gallagher?

 

Gallagher, Reed and Hesketh mainly got game-time due to injuries of senior players ahead of them in the pecking order. There are now more senior players (many of which are internationals) in the Saints squad than in 2013/14 under Pochettino or last season under Koeman.

 

 

I agree MLG, but there are rather a lot of ....IF's ...there.

Anyway - Every fan at SMS would have chosen Shaw in front of Fox, it was a no-brainer. Not because Shaw was so great, but Fox was putting in appauling performances.

ALSO.... I'm very tired of hearing (other) contributors praising Pochettino for bringing on " so many young players ".

 

Shaw in particular had played about 12 games (under Nigel Adkins) and was the accepted LB choice before Poch arrived. Shaw was playing well and took his chance.

 

Clyne was the established RB and was injured in pre-season, the placing of Chambers at RB was a chance measure (there was no reserve as Butterfield had left by then)

 

The entire "Sam Gallagher saga" came about purely because (1) Osvaldo had been suspended after his fisticuffs with Fonte (2) Lambert was off form and Jay Rod was injured at Man City......Pochettino had no other choice but to use Sam Gallagher, who was the only other striker at the club... and the transfer window was closed.

 

18 of his Gallagher's 20 apps. were substituitions late on in games, and the one Prem. goal he scored was in the 97th minute of a game we had already won.

 

Koeman used just as many U21 players as Pochettino had done, but like MP he did so because of injury crises, and not because of some desire to bring on young players.

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Been thinking about Koeman's comments and they are harsh alright and a bit uncharacteristic which suggests to me they are not specifically aimed at the fans and the U21 players. I think he is sending a message to Reed and Co and telling them that perhaps they are now guilty of over relying on the Academy and it is not forever going to be a bottomless pit. I watched a lot of U21 games in the last year and the U18s in the FA Youth Cup and some of the organisation from the touchline looked a bit substandard. Koeman is not a mug, he knows his comments will cause a stir and I am thinking that's why he made them.

 

Forgive me for swearing on a public forum but it has a hint of Redknappism about it. Whilst what he say's seems to be quite valid he's using it publicly to push the Board to open the purse strings. Maybe.

Edited by Greenridge
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We have a terrific academy, such a huge reputation around Europe....but we will have dry spells, and this is seemingly a dry spell. What has been mentioned on here before was the state of the club in 07/08 and 08/09. The budgets I believe were dramatically cut for the academy and the recruitment would have been of a much lower level, and we're now probably seeing the effects of that. I believe the younger age groups over the last year or so have had to be topped up with kids released by other clubs, which kind of shows that the production line wasn't there 5/6 years ago.

 

Give it another 5/6 years though and our current structure and what we've done over the last few years will come to fruition. What Koeman said is probably a little harsh, but I've never really thought much of this lot is up to it. I don't really rate Mcqueen, or Isgrove/Gallagher - and I've never quite understood the shouting to get them included, they're simply not good enough. In my opinion, if you're 21/22 and still haven't broken through in the PL...then you're not going to. So I'd say the likes of Mcqueen, Isgrove, Gallagher etc will probably end up finding employment else where, lower down in the pyramid.

 

I have high hopes for McCarthy though, I think he's an excellent prospect - as well as Reed. But what Koeman said may also be a message for the board, obviously there's all the talk of not blocking the pathway etc, but if there's nothing coming up the pathway...then you can block it for a few years!

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Forgive me for swearing on a pubic forum but it has a hint of Redknappism about it. Whilst what he say's seems to be quite valid he's using it publicly to push the Board to open the purse strings. Maybe.

 

I think he's protecting his own reputation.

 

"Why haven't you brought through any youth from the academy Ronald?"

 

"Because they are no good!" (in mine opinion)

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are we expecting TOO much from the Academy?

 

going back 10 years....the following players have come through our Academy sides and progressed to be good enough play Premier League. (though not all for us )

 

Walcott, Bale, Surman, Dyer, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaw, Lallana, Chambers, JWP. Targett.(I won't count Schneiderlin, but he came aged 18..and stayed 7 years).

 

Are there any other clubs who have produced so much teenage talent that has graduated to the highest level ? I think probably not.

 

Along the way there are probably a dozen more who've had a few games between them, but at the rate of 10 players in 10 years ...should we really expect so many more?

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We have a terrific academy, such a huge reputation around Europe....but we will have dry spells, and this is seemingly a dry spell. What has been mentioned on here before was the state of the club in 07/08 and 08/09. The budgets I believe were dramatically cut for the academy and the recruitment would have been of a much lower level, and we're now probably seeing the effects of that. I believe the younger age groups over the last year or so have had to be topped up with kids released by other clubs, which kind of shows that the production line wasn't there 5/6 years ago.

 

Give it another 5/6 years though and our current structure and what we've done over the last few years will come to fruition. What Koeman said is probably a little harsh, but I've never really thought much of this lot is up to it. I don't really rate Mcqueen, or Isgrove/Gallagher - and I've never quite understood the shouting to get them included, they're simply not good enough. In my opinion, if you're 21/22 and still haven't broken through in the PL...then you're not going to. So I'd say the likes of Mcqueen, Isgrove, Gallagher etc will probably end up finding employment else where, lower down in the pyramid.

 

I have high hopes for McCarthy though, I think he's an excellent prospect - as well as Reed. But what Koeman said may also be a message for the board, obviously there's all the talk of not blocking the pathway etc, but if there's nothing coming up the pathway...then you can block it for a few years!

 

I know as the Nick Clegg of the mboard, you make a living out of chopping and changing your views to be appear right-on. But you were a massive fan of Gallagher, telling us all how, having followed his progress, you had no worries about starting him and thought he was very classy for a big man. What's changed -it's certainly not a surfeit of opportunities.

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Far easier to " drip feed " a lad or two into side doing well rather a,struggling side which we have at the moment.

The thing that's hard to take is that the " production line " of decent lads has dried up since spending all those millions on the academy.

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Far easier to " drip feed " a lad or two into side doing well rather a,struggling side which we have at the moment.

The thing that's hard to take is that the " production line " of decent lads has dried up since spending all those millions on the academy.

 

Not really. There's an investment lag - it takes time to see results. Remember many of the kids reaching maturity now would have been found and trained over the past 7-10 years ago, basically coinciding with our lean period. I don't know if investment in the Academy will have direct, linear benefits but this cohort or crop of players can't be used to evaluate it either way.

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Bet you loved the Poortvliet season then!

 

We played some decent football in small patches haha , seriously though if it was all about winning no matter what I may as well have supported united or Liverpool growing up!

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So basically, he would do exactly what he's tended to do since he's been here. Not sure why you assumed all those situations would be the same under Koeman anyway, thought you liked logic?

 

Exactly the reason we won't find ourselves with an injury or suspension and then playing Reed, Stephens or Hesketh, because we've spent lots of money on average squad players to close that route to the team.

Who is the SOMEONE ELSE he's SIGNED to cover left back in Bertrand's absence, then?

 

That's exactly what he tends to do, right?

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If there is a silver lining to being relegated, it is that it will force us to use some of the academy players and also if we stay down for 3 or 4 years will allow them to develop in a slightly less demanding stage.

We can then go for promotion, sell them at a big profit, get relegated and start the cycle all over again.

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I think he's protecting his own reputation.

 

"Why haven't you brought through any youth from the academy Ronald?"

 

"Because they are no good!" (in mine opinion)

 

Who would you actually bring in who is near the level of other first team players?

 

 

That's not the point I'm making. We could talk all day on here about whether certain players from the academy are good enough or not.

 

I just can't see any benefit to the club for Ron to say what he has about the academy players to the press. I think he's thinking about himself rather than the club.

 

We are a club renowned for our "excellent" academy, it's important for our reputation in this country and now worldwide. Whether the current crop of players are crap or not, we don't need it fed to the media that our manager doesn't think they are up to much! Why not be positive and say that there is some real talent, but it's not ready yet - even if it's bullsh*t?

 

Some on here have surmised that he said it to put pressure on the club - to spend.

My personal opinion, and it's just an opinion, is that he is looking after his own reputation (also mentioned in the Neil Ashton article you linked earlier) Any question marks about why he hasn't brought through academy players at Saints, might call into question his coaching ability, and therefore his next "big" job - which I'm sure he has an eye on. He's aware of this, so gives his honest view on them - they're not good enough, it's not my fault!

Thing is this doesn't do the club's rep much good and therefore I think he was wrong to say it.

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If there is a silver lining to being relegated, it is that it will force us to use some of the academy players and also if we stay down for 3 or 4 years will allow them to develop in a slightly less demanding stage.

We can then go for promotion, sell them at a big profit, get relegated and start the cycle all over again.

 

Is it your goal to get your obsession with relegation registered on every thread on the forum ?

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Who is the SOMEONE ELSE he's SIGNED to cover left back in Bertrand's absence, then?

 

That's exactly what he tends to do, right?

Martina actually. He was brought in as a backup at RB, CB and LB, and it was particulary pertinent for a LB as Bertrand missed the beginning of the season and so Target was the only cover.

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Martina actually. He was brought in as a backup at RB, CB and LB, and it was particulary pertinent for a LB as Bertrand missed the beginning of the season and so Target was the only cover.

This will be the same Targett that Koeman has talked very positively about in the interview at the top of this thread? That Targett? The Targett this is, without any question, our back up left back? That Targett?

 

You tossed yourself off into a frenzy over players that Poch "blooded" on fewer appearances but crack on.

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I've got to the point where i'd happily see Koeman go. Really can't stand his complete negativity in regards the development of young players.

 

This is a ridiculous statement.

 

Which youngsters do you want to see play ahead of our large number of senior internationals? There is a huge gulf from under 21 football to the level of our first team. The Southampton first team is packed with internationals and the bar is very high for any young player to jump straight in to that level.

 

Its a lot easier to blood youngsters as teenagers as a Football League club, than it is as a mid table Premier League club. The player has to be exceptional to get a place ahead of a senior international and may be better off gaining experience on loan and the breakthrough into the first team may be in their early 20's rather than teenage years.

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This is a ridiculous statement.

 

Which youngsters do you want to see play ahead of our large number of senior internationals? There is a huge gulf from under 21 football to the level of our first team. The Southampton first team is packed with internationals and the bar is very high for any young player to jump straight in to that level.

 

Its a lot easier to blood youngsters as teenagers as a Football League club, than it is as a mid table Premier League club. The player has to be exceptional to get a place ahead of a senior international and may be better off gaining experience on loan and the breakthrough into the first team may be in their early 20's rather than teenage years.

 

There's Reed who he's ignored till a five minute cameo vs Norwich this season even after he impressed when forced to give him a chance against everton the previous season. There's Stephens who impressed over 2 loan spells at Swindon, who rather than play he instead forked out on Caulker on Loan. There's Seager who has repeatedly done well at u21 level and yet had one tiny cameo.

 

In the article he talks about only Targett being ready for the 1st team with Reed behind him. Really for me that's more indicative of a Redknapp/allardyce attitude where a young player is only when they have experience.

The old catch twenty two where the young player needs top flight experience in order for the manager to risk him but without being given the experience by said manager they will never get that experience.

So yeah i'd be happy if he went at the end of the season.

 

 

On a completely unrelated note, really happy to see Lee Holmes score against Liverpool. Really nice to see him back playing, is a really good little player, who's been blighted by injuries.

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He probably would if we were playing Exeter. That Liverpool team tonight would not be good enough to beat Palace.

 

Doubt it. Putting out **** teams in the cup was Poch's speciality. Koeman has always put out strong teams in the cup which is another reason the academy players don't get much chance in the first team.

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Been reading through old articles about the academy - Les is certainly passionate about it.

Anyway thought these two were worth pointing out, there is this one from Oct '14 about our "perfect academy";

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/11199367/St-Marys-is-the-perfect-academy-for-youngsters-at-the-Southampton-dream-factory.html

 

Thought this was an interesting line;

 

“We got the right man for the job (Koeman) and then spent the money wisely. While all that was going on, the young players were training with the first team. Ronald has a good look at them. Eventually, we would like 50 per cent home-grown in the first team. Ronald is ultra-supportive. He believes in talented youth. Mauricio

(Pochettino) was good as well.

 

 

Came across this from last Summer, concerning Europa football:

 

 

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/southampton-place-trust-academy-reed#:L7xENJYZclS34A

 

 

"So I think it's manageable. Yes, you want a bit more strength, but what we've built is an academy that supplies players to the first team so we'll get our strength in depth from that."

 

Strength in depth from the academy............

Edited by Chalkboy
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Have to agree with him from what I've seen. Targett needs a loan in the Championship but would like to see Reed given a chance.

 

Interesting you say that. If you read the piece carefully Matt Targett is one of the ones he says IS ready for Premier League football, but is just unlucky that Bertrand is ahead of him.

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Been reading through old articles about the academy - Les is certainly passionate about it.

Anyway thought these two were worth pointing out, there is this one from Oct '14 about our "perfect academy";

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/11199367/St-Marys-is-the-perfect-academy-for-youngsters-at-the-Southampton-dream-factory.html

 

Thought this was an interesting line;

 

“We got the right man for the job (Koeman) and then spent the money wisely. While all that was going on, the young players were training with the first team. Ronald has a good look at them. Eventually, we would like 50 per cent home-grown in the first team. Ronald is ultra-supportive. He believes in talented youth. Mauricio

(Pochettino) was good as well.

 

 

Came across this from last Summer, concerning Europa football:

 

 

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/southampton-place-trust-academy-reed#:L7xENJYZclS34A

 

 

"So I think it's manageable. Yes, you want a bit more strength, but what we've built is an academy that supplies players to the first team so we'll get our strength in depth from that."

 

Strength in depth from the academy............

 

Yep.

 

And then we signed Martina and Caulker.

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Would be ideal apart from we sold the best ones.

 

TBF they all seemed pretty keen to leave saints which is pretty much the problem, weather we develop players or buy them, if they turn out any good they can't wait to f uck off else where. So if we have 50% homegrown talent it will most likely be 50% made up of players no one wants (JWP) or players who can't wait to Leave (Chambers, oxo, Shaw).

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Interesting you say that.

 

If you read the piece carefully Matt Targett is one of the ones he says IS ready for Premier League football, but is just unlucky that Bertrand is ahead of him.

 

 

this is the eternal problem - isn't it?

I thought Mourinho was crazy when he sold Cech....especially to Arsenal. Now look at the league table. Courtois got injured and that didn't help their defence.

 

The likes of Matt Targett come in (when selected) and DAJFU . Bertrand is one of the most consistant players we have a.t.m....and I hope he will continue to do so, but ....an injury to him?....when Targett is out on loan?....the quick fix is Yoshida ...or Martina....doesn't sound so enthralling - does it?

 

We all know "The Southampton Way" is bringing on youngsters, but how many of us were in school (50 years ago for me)..with people who got an "A" in every subject ?

They were very few and far between. Of course, the youngsters who comes in plays their socks off for a game or two....but consistancy is the name of the game, and a lad who comes in maybe this week's hero, but in the long term you can't " experiment " all the time... at least not whilst we're losing points like water.

 

In the last couple of months, we've created (total) more chances than the opponents have, but won only once. For all the criticism of midfielders, at least we created chances and aside from the obvious defensive problems were there,....but our best two U21 prospects were out on loan.

 

Even before his injury Pelle was off-form, and Mane hasn't scored in his last 9 Prem. games....and so all the blame falls on Shane Long ...mainly because we don't have any other alternative as Gallagher and Isgrove - were both out on loan. Ryan Seager is a good prospect, but I don't see him as a replacement for either of the other two, as he is more of a "goal-poacher " playing off a big striker... than he is an out-and-out striker.

 

Les Reed said that we often "pick up the lads with potential - that other clubs reject " but he truth is that there is often a good reason why they were rejected.

They may have be promising at U18 / U21 level, but they seldom progress up to " the man's level in the Prem."

 

We suffer from the same problem that other Prem. clubs suffer, mainly that for every promising youngster ...a place on the M.U. / Arsenal bench at 100K /week is better than occasional outing in our first team.

 

Koeman knows this - and he is right, and he will continue to be right until the " Shaw, or Chambers " that comes along proves himself better than Bertrand or Cedric.

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Been reading through old articles about the academy - Les is certainly passionate about it.

Anyway thought these two were worth pointing out, there is this one from Oct '14 about our "perfect academy";

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/11199367/St-Marys-is-the-perfect-academy-for-youngsters-at-the-Southampton-dream-factory.html

 

Thought this was an interesting line;

 

“We got the right man for the job (Koeman) and then spent the money wisely. While all that was going on, the young players were training with the first team. Ronald has a good look at them. Eventually, we would like 50 per cent home-grown in the first team. Ronald is ultra-supportive. He believes in talented youth. Mauricio

(Pochettino) was good as well.

 

 

Came across this from last Summer, concerning Europa football:

 

 

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/southampton-place-trust-academy-reed#:L7xENJYZclS34A

 

 

"So I think it's manageable. Yes, you want a bit more strength, but what we've built is an academy that supplies players to the first team so we'll get our strength in depth from that."

 

Strength in depth from the academy............

 

That was before. We're a showcase club these days, waiting for a the usual elite to create an opening in the top 6 so we're poised ready and waiting to pounce.....

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I have just seen a transcript of the interview. I am a big fan of Rons and admire his honesty but sometimes I think he shouldn't always say what he thinks. To the players yes, but when you come out in public and say that stuff I wonder what affect it has on the youngsters. Reed and Targett will take heart but the rest must think, thanks for that Ron!

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Someone should show RK the match against Everton in which Reed excelled. Reed was perfectly capable of performing well in the EPL then; why is he not ready now after the benefit of another year or two of coaching in the under 21s and in the first team squad in the intervening period. The absence of Reed from the pitch in our league games this year has demonstrated for me that RK is not the successor to MP that the Board thought he would be. And that is a pity.

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I have just seen a transcript of the interview. I am a big fan of Rons and admire his honesty but sometimes I think he shouldn't always say what he thinks. To the players yes, but when you come out in public and say that stuff I wonder what affect it has on the youngsters. Reed and Targett will take heart but the rest must think, thanks for that Ron!

 

He wasn't worried about the impact of his comments on the youngsters. He said them publicly for his own benefit.

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He wasn't worried about the impact of his comments on the youngsters. He said them publicly for his own benefit.

 

I said as much on this thread yesterday. It doesn't do the club's reputation of having a top class academy much good either!

He won a lot of praise for last season and saw his name linked with big jobs. I think he's distancing himself to try and keep his reputation intact.

I can't see his comments being welcomed by the board who are trying to sell our academy excellence to a wider market.

I don't see him as our future but would be happy to be proved wrong.

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