Koeman unimpressed by academy players

[SuperSAINT]

http://m.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/14190207.Koeman_unimpressed_by_Southampton_s_academy_players/?ref=rss

[EBS1980]

Could be a message to the board that we can't just use them to fill out the squad? Bit of pressure to buy in this window rather than say use Gallagher?

 

He sees these players much more than us, so to those saying lets just play all the kids...looks like they need more time or simply aren't as good as everyone bills them up to be.

[CB Fry]

Just blood them all Ronald, blood them all, blood them all.

[Daft Kerplunk]

It's totally fair. Any player coming through now will have to be of the right standard, or at very least show they have the potential. If they aren't ready for how RK wants them to play, they aren't ready.

[Mr Saints]

Have to agree with him from what I've seen. Targett needs a loan in the Championship but would like to see Reed given a chance.

[shurlock]

If they're not good enough for the first team, they're not good enough. End of.

 

That said, it's slightly surprising that the likes of Seager don't train regularly with the first team squad -Koeman implies it happens only occasionally. I thought uncle Les' vision of love, peace and happiness was that youngsters, whether they were first team/squad or not, would train with the first team on a regular basis.

 

Guess that, in part, explains why another one of Les' sacred cows -keeping loans to a very minimum- seems to have gone the way of the dodo. There's less point developing the likes of Jack Stephens and Jason McCarthy inhouse when they're not facing Pelle, Mané, Tadic et al. in training.

Edited 8 January, 2016 by shurlock

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Hmmm hardly motiventional of Koeman! Maybe he needs to take a look at some of the coaching because last year the likes of Hesketh and Gape were considered by him to be good enough.

[norwaysaint]

No surprises there. He hasn't picked them, so we know he doesn't think they're good enough. I think most people can see that and are complaining more that Martina is a new signing who doesn't seem any better than an academy player, so why bring him in and not just play one of our sub-standard academy players? I suppose he disagrees about Martina.

 

For most of our history, most academy players haven't been good enough, so it's not really news.We get about one decent player every three years or so on average I'd guess and we just had Shaw and Chambers come through quite recently, plus JWP. We've already produced more players recently than I would've expected.

[Saint Charlie]

Fair enough comments.

 

Someone like Gape is over 20 and obviously not going to be a PL player, ditto McQueen.

 

You don't look at the U21s and feel many are anywhere near PL ready.

 

The Captain from last year is doing well on loan, but in L2 and the main striker couldn't get a game in the Championship.

 

Koeman is spot on.

 

Judging by how the U18s get hammered every other week it isn't going to change.

 

Maybe we need to buy a few in like Best and Blackstock otherwise it must be a little demoralising for the coaches and the occassional player who may have the required ability.

[Saint Charlie]

Hmmm hardly motiventional of Koeman! Maybe he needs to take a look at some of the coaching because last year the likes of Hesketh and Gape were considered by him to be good enough.

Were they?

 

Hesketh he gave a chance to for a game and he got injured.

 

Gape played 2 mins off the bench in an injury crisis.

 

When you watch Gape do you see a player of PL potential? I would be hugely suprised if you do.

[Black Sea Saint]

I bet you MoPo would have turned Reed, Targett and Seagar into England debutants by now

[Patrick Bateman]

I bet you MoPo would have turned Reed, Targett and Seagar into England debutants by now

 

I bet you that he wouldn't have.

[del boy]

Sounds very fair. In the past the gap was less - its easier to get into a team playing in league 1 but the gap to the Premier league is big and widening all the time

[Saint Without a Halo]

Mopo inherited a reasonable team but in half a season had developed a compact team playing his way without the hamstring problems Jurgen klopp is getting at scousehampton koeman inherited some reasonable players bought in some good additions that clicked and got off to a tremendous start but now seems to have lost his way a little however Mopo has a clear philosophy and a way of playing dependent on hard working fit young players and always seems to get there as demonstrated at Spurs ( look at what he is getting out of Lamela where all others saw nothing in him)

 

i think Mopo would certainly have done more in trying to mould the youngsters to his philosophy than Koeman has, probably because Mopo has a philosophy that depends on tailoring youth to his way which is a lot clearer than Koemans

Edited 8 January, 2016 by Saint Without a Halo

[Suhari]

Did Koeman just put a roadblock up on the 'pathway'?

 

Not exactly motivational for anyone one the academy set up.

[angelman]

Hmmm hardly motiventional of Koeman! Maybe he needs to take a look at some of the coaching because last year the likes of Hesketh and Gape were considered by him to be good enough.

 

Possibly, possibly not. If they aren't good enough there seems little point patting them on the back saying "Well done boys" when you don't mean it. Saying they are crap might focus their efforts more. Certainly if the manager (of the first team) said that about me, I'd say "Oh really? I'll show you" and redouble my efforts.

[Pancake]

I see this as a positive article. The bit where he says its was easier 4 years a go is true, we have move up as a club and the youth players also need to move up. When these kids came to use we were much lower down in the league.

 

If we back the academy and bring in some good young purchases the place can thrive again. Only 1 or 2 from each year will go on to play as a pro I imagine.

 

He isn't saying he not give them a chance (the opposite in fact when you read the quotes about Reed and Targett) but only if they are good enough or play themselves into the team.

 

It's a kick up the arse of the youth and the coaches IMHO.

 

Actually, from the last couple of days I get the feeling Ron wants to build a project here.

 

Either that or I'm still drunk. Hey ho.

[JRM]

To be fair in the back 4 we have two capped by England u21s if you include Jack Stephens who is back now, that shows some promise, plus Gazzaniga seems to be progressing in goal. They deserve a mention alongside Targett, Read and Seager.

I remember watching Josh Sims in u18s couple of years ago who looked good and Slattery gets mentioned as "one for the future"

[Window Cleaner]

http://m.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/14190207.Koeman_unimpressed_by_Southampton_s_academy_players/?ref=rss

 

Well yes, I think most of us had worked that out for ourselves, despite the habitual protests from they'll be good one day brigade.

[Saint Charlie]

Did Koeman just put a roadblock up on the 'pathway'?

 

Not exactly motivational for anyone one the academy set up.

Not really. He just spoke with honesty. Any player worth having will try to prove him wrong.

 

Its no shame to be a player who isn't good enough for PL level. But there is no point pretending that any more than 2 or 3 of the current U21s will end up being first team regulars.

 

Anyone who is 20and still nowhere near first team level is going to struggle to ever get there, in the majority of cases.

[ribbo]

He lacks the balls that MoPo had to drip feed them the minutes required for an untried youth prospect to be a youth prospect ready to understand first team football and the step up. Sounds to me like Koeman's "motivating" the kids to join his squad while moving the goalposts every transfer window.

 

Of course it's more difficult to come into the Southampton team now than it was four years ago, but it looks a lot more difficult to come into the team now than it did last year because the first team squad's been filled with quantity rather than quality.

Four years ago we'd forgo signing an Antonio because we knew we had an Ox in the wings, I don't think our succession planning is that brave now.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

He is right in saying that the required standard has improved.

 

But as has been mentioned above, he also lacks the capability to be able to develop a player via giving them first team minutes. That is the most disappointing thing given his record at Feyenoord. He'd rather play senior pros with known ceiling caps on their ability than see if a youngster can make the step up. I never thought that was the 'Southampton Way'.

[trousers]

Certainly if the manager (of the first team) said that about me, I'd say "Oh really? I'll show you" and redouble my efforts.

 

This

[Window Cleaner]

He is right in saying that the required standard has improved.

 

But as has been mentioned above, he also lacks the capability to be able to develop a player via giving them first team minutes. That is the most disappointing thing given his record at Feyenoord. He'd rather play senior pros with known ceiling caps on their ability than see if a youngster can make the step up. I never thought that was the 'Southampton Way'.

 

The Eredivisie isn't the Premier League. There is little room for error in the PL. Couple of bad results and you're relegation fodder (apparently anyway) and with the sums at stake that is unacceptable. You might be able to get away with playing young unexperienced players against Wilhem II and Utrecht but not against West Brom and West Ham.

[Saint Billy]

Perhaps they are all having growth spurts at the same time.

 

Lets be honest, the academy is not producing the quality it use to.

[Window Cleaner]

Perhaps they are all having growth spurts at the same time.

 

Lets be honest, the academy is not producing the quality it use to.

2 possibilities.

a) The "raw materiel" isn't of the same quality and the coaches not of the same standard.

b) It's getting harder and harder to accede to the PL.

 

Look at the sides from some old games 5 jocks, 4 Englishmen and 2 Irish against 6 english, 3 Welsh a Scot and A Northern Irelander. Now if you get 3 home growns in each side you're lucky; There's less place for home grown players that all.

Edited 8 January, 2016 by Window Cleaner

[shurlock]

2 possibilities.

a) The "raw materiel" isn't of the same quality and the coaches not of the same standard.

b) It's getting harder and harder to accede to the PL.

 

Or simple mean reversion.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The Eredivisie isn't the Premier League. There is little room for error in the PL. Couple of bad results and you're relegation fodder (apparently anyway) and with the sums at stake that is unacceptable. You might be able to get away with playing young unexperienced players against Wilhem II and Utrecht but not against West Brom and West Ham.

 

I don't disagree with the sentiment but when we finished 8th in the League we had a Manager who would play many of the kids who Koeman has just declared not good enough. I'm convinced that Reed can contribute to this team more than he is being allowed to.

[Window Cleaner]

I don't disagree with the sentiment but when we finished 8th in the League we had a Manager who would play many of the kids who Koeman has just declared not good enough. I'm convinced that Reed can contribute to this team more than he is being allowed to.

 

Because he had no choice, doesn't mean he liked doing it although the players he had at his disposition were of a certain quality.

He still wandered off at the first opportunity though.

[Saint Garrett]

Hesketh was such a weird one - started a game, was very eager but didnt look out of place in his small cameo, got injured and then has never been seen in the squad again....would have expected himj to be on the bench every now and again since.

[Window Cleaner]

Hesketh was such a weird one - started a game, was very eager but didnt look out of place in his small cameo, got injured and then has never been seen in the squad again....would have expected himj to be on the bench every now and again since.

 

Against Burnley, Koeman probably had his hand forced over that. Lad got booked after a couple of minutes and then his physique couldn't stand the strain, point proven Mr Reed.

[disconnect]

I bet you that he wouldn't have.

 

Agree. Would Pochettino really play Targett if he had Bertrand? Is Reed as good as Alli? Is Seagar proven that he's better than Gallagher (who struggled for games in the championship)?

 

Maybe he's saying this as the youngsters are becoming complacent from all the previous success other players from the academy have had? Perhaps he hears the murmurs from the crowd 'why is x playing when x from the academy plays in that position' (when the person watching in the crowds has probably barely seen that player play).

[shurlock]

Against Burnley, Koeman probably had his hand forced over that. Lad got booked after a couple of minutes and then his physique couldn't stand the strain, point proven Mr Reed.

 

Less than a game = point proven ?????

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Because he had no choice, doesn't mean he liked doing it although the players he had at his disposition were of a certain quality.

He still wandered off at the first opportunity though.

 

Pochettino leaving is nothing to do with the discussion. Pochettino is almost arrogant in his insistence to give young players a chance and to motivate and push them on. He won't do it blindly of course but if he sees potential he will push it. He turned Chambers into a £16m right back over the course of a summer of repositioning training and then playing him in half the games we had that season.

 

Alli's played half a season and he must be worth a ridiculous amount now compared to what they paid for him.

 

It is possible to integrate kids into our team and be no worse off than we are, I believe that.

[Saint86]

Mopo inherited a reasonable team but in half a season had developed a compact team playing his way without the hamstring problems Jurgen klopp is getting at scousehampton koeman inherited some reasonable players bought in some good additions that clicked and got off to a tremendous start but now seems to have lost his way a little however Mopo has a clear philosophy and a way of playing dependent on hard working fit young players and always seems to get there as demonstrated at Spurs ( look at what he is getting out of Lamela where all others saw nothing in him)

 

i think Mopo would certainly have done more in trying to mould the youngsters to his philosophy than Koeman has, probably because Mopo has a philosophy that depends on tailoring youth to his way which is a lot clearer than Koemans

 

I see it pretty much like this.

 

What Koeman is forgetting is that players like JWP and Gallagher were playing for Mopo two years ago when he got us to 8th. These players have not progressed under Koeman and arguably regressed.

 

I like Koeman, but if he wants to stay at saints he needs to develop the kids. That is bread and butter for this club, other managers have managed it and Koeman has no excuse. Lets not forget that this is the U21 cup holders team and a lot of the star players in that u21 squad are 16 - 18 years of age... Seager is utter quality and needs to be blooded now. And gallagher was proving he could be a nuisance when he first came through under MoPo when he barely knew what to do with his gangly frame.

 

I like Koeman, but he needs to stop all these excuses. We should have been signing a smattering of top quality players and then used the kids for depth and development. Instead we signed a load of squad fillers and some decent first team players... but no real improvements on a like for like basis.

 

This new stance by the club of blocking the development and progression of youth players is going to rapidly undo all the good that was achieved under Adkins and MoPo.

[Pilchards]

I do think Mopo would of given the younger players more opportunities than Koeman has.

IMHO the reason why we are not producing is because they are chopping and changing the youth coaches too many times.

Edited 8 January, 2016 by Pilchards

[Window Cleaner]

Pochettino leaving is nothing to do with the discussion. Pochettino is almost arrogant in his insistence to give young players a chance and to motivate and push them on. He won't do it blindly of course but if he sees potential he will push it. He turned Chambers into a £16m right back over the course of a summer of repositioning training and then playing him in half the games we had that season.

 

Alli's played half a season and he must be worth a ridiculous amount now compared to what they paid for him.

 

It is possible to integrate kids into our team and be no worse off than we are, I believe that.

 

But Pochettino is a far better manager than Koeman wll ever be, perhaps D'Agostino is a far better coach than the 3 clowns Koeman has working for him as well. There are so many factors to be considered. Ali had 62 games for MK Dons on the counter before he went to Tottenham, different class of player.

[trousers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVvVOhoAGAI

[Saint86]

The reason kids do well under poch is that he has unequivocal faith in them. They come through playing as a group of players (some since the age of , they play for each other and with each other... and he gives them that platform to do it on the ultimate stage. He supports them, gives them the chances to learn and develop and pushes them on... Koeman says they aren't good enough and hardly uses them, supports them or gives them game time...

 

If poch was still here, you would be seeing them in the first team and I think we'd be doing at least as well as we currently are this season. Love him (not many of us) or hate him, Poch fitted the youth development of this club down to the ground and every consecutive manager will be judged against him when it comes to youth development.

[shurlock]

Pochettino leaving is nothing to do with the discussion. Pochettino is almost arrogant in his insistence to give young players a chance and to motivate and push them on. He won't do it blindly of course but if he sees potential he will push it. He turned Chambers into a £16m right back over the course of a summer of repositioning training and then playing him in half the games we had that season.

 

Alli's played half a season and he must be worth a ridiculous amount now compared to what they paid for him.

 

It is possible to integrate kids into our team and be no worse off than we are, I believe that.

 

MP played Ryan Mason in 2014/15, preferring him over Dembele and Paulinho among others. Previously, Mason had been on loan to Orient and Swindon. In the main, he's a bang average player -arguably not that much better than Reed- but was nonetheless given a chance.

[eddie]

think koeman has by and large hit the nail on the head. the impression you get on here is that koeman is somehow supressing some world class talent in not playing reed and gallagher in half the league games this season. but I think targett was just a much of a worry at full back as maya is. reed has been alright, but why give him a 'punt' when in romeu and clasie we have two fairly good players with experience at a good level? the fact that people are saying gallagher/seager should be given a good run now that pelle and jay-r are out, doesn't demonstrate that 'we needed him all along' or 'now is his time', but is just indicative of the fact we're conducting our squad management on ice at the moment. Two injuries and we literally do not have a player that can give us goals up front. It's abysmal really. in other words, gallagher shouldn't be playing now. we should be bringing him on when we've got a solid, performing team week in week out.

 

I'll rehash what I posted somewhere else - one of my issues with the past 2 years saints squad is that we're now so international (I think almost every member of our current 1st 11 has played abroad nearly..!) that there's little loyalty. it's one thing having youth, yes. But youth are as likely to develop and be sold as anyone else (if not more?). what we don't have any more, besides maybe davis, davis and fonte (?) is proper club lads who've been around for a bit and aren't likely to move anywhere else as they just aren't good enough to move to a top 6 club but wouldn't move horizontally to palace or swans or the like.

 

Most other clubs have local, homegrown or just english players who fill the squad, aren't top class but can be relied upon. outside of a very unstable (and more likely to go elsewhere, since they've already made international moves to play for saints in PL) international core, we've got some youngsters who aren't really cutting the mustard if we want to aim for top 1/2 table.

 

definitely not hating on the foreign players. just saying that players who have made big moves to come to PL from afar are much more likely to up and go again. and youngsters also. I wish that instead of gallagher/seager being our only viable other choice for striker besides long, that we had some more solid, championship proven squad members who could jump in.

 

anyway. rant over. I'm down on the season in general, feel like saints fans getting run round the mill a bit with buying season tickets and having reasonable expectations that dont on the surface seem to be matched by the actions of the saints board. worth bearing in mind that pelle's hit 30 as well. next season probably his phase-out season aso I'd hope that this jan or summer we're bringing in a very decent CF/striker as his replacement.

[corky morris]

Against Burnley, Koeman probably had his hand forced over that. Lad got booked after a couple of minutes and then his physique couldn't stand the strain, point proven Mr Reed.

 

That's nonsense! Were you at the game?

He got whacked by Keene, that's why he went off.

[sadoldgit]

I bet you MoPo would have turned Reed, Targett and Seagar into England debutants by now

 

There is an old saying, you cant turn a sows ear into a silk purse. At the moment I don't think any of these players are of International potential.

[sadoldgit]

Well I'm not impressed with his signings. Try giving youth players a chance before writing them off. This is just him wanting more money to bring in lots more average players.

 

Do you remember what happened the last time we gave sub Premiership standard youth players a chance?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Do you remember what happened the last time we gave sub Premiership standard youth players a chance?

 

It's always hard to tell but Ryan Mason was a nobody at the age of 23 in Spurs reserves and somehow last season Pochettino polished that turd so much he got an England cap.

 

EDIT: Sorry - meant that in reply to your post two posts up.

Edited 8 January, 2016 by Lallana's Left Peg

[Tommog]

How about this...

 

Why not move Bertrand into a left midfield position (he is actually a key offensive player for us despite playing LB with his overlapping runs and I think has a footballing brain) and putting Targett in at LB. Im not hugely impressed with Targett. But if he is best of the latest crop its a total waste to have him sat on the bench. Getting game time whilst actually playing as a double act with Bertrand (who should be his role model) could be great for his development.

 

I mean we played Bale at LB who turned out to be a world class offensive player. Not saying Bertrand is Bale of course but he is a cut above most of our squad and think he could be up to the job.

[sadoldgit]

It's always hard to tell but Ryan Mason was a nobody at the age of 23 in Spurs reserves and somehow last season Pochettino polished that turd so much he got an England cap.

 

EDIT: Sorry - meant that in reply to your post two posts up.

 

Some players do develop a bit later I agree but he must have shown some potential otherwise why would they keep him on?

[Dig Dig]

How about this...

 

Why not move Bertrand into a left midfield position (he is actually a key offensive player for us despite playing LB with his overlapping runs and I think has a footballing brain) and putting Targett in at LB. Im not hugely impressed with Targett. But if he is best of the latest crop its a total waste to have him sat on the bench. Getting game time whilst actually playing as a double act with Bertrand (who should be his role model) could be great for his development.

 

I mean we played Bale at LB who turned out to be a world class offensive player. Not saying Bertrand is Bale of course but he is a cut above most of our squad and think he could be up to the job.

 

He does a good enough job offensively through his link up play with Tadic which is one of our main decent partnerships on the pitch. I can't see how putting an inferior LB in would improve us overall.

[Window Cleaner]

How about this...

 

Why not move Bertrand into a left midfield position (he is actually a key offensive player for us despite playing LB with his overlapping runs and I think has a footballing brain) and putting Targett in at LB. Im not hugely impressed with Targett. But if he is best of the latest crop its a total waste to have him sat on the bench. Getting game time whilst actually playing as a double act with Bertrand (who should be his role model) could be great for his development.

 

I mean we played Bale at LB who turned out to be a world class offensive player. Not saying Bertrand is Bale of course but he is a cut above most of our squad and think he could be up to the job.

 

Why change the side just to accomodate a token youth academy product. When you start doing that you're on the rocky road to ruin. The situation is as it is, Koeman doesn't believe that the youth products are better than the other players. It's been obvious for a while that that is the case, now that it's been sort of officially confirmed some of you seem to have difficulty in accepting it. Of course those of us who told you that it was probably the case months back are still fools and heretics.

[Dig Dig]

Some players do develop a bit later I agree but he must have shown some potential otherwise why would they keep him on?

 

It would be the equivalent of Isgrove or McQueen suddenly becoming a key player and starter for us over the course of a season which just won't happen so why have we kept them? Yes they will have shown some promise in their time here but they haven't looked any closer to being involved than they were 4 years ago. Very similar to how things were panning out for Mason at Spurs until Poch put him in.