The9 Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 There has to be a middle ground between balancing the books and being sensible and investing in real quality. The opportunity to get bigger names in at slightly lower than market rate wages before the impact of the new Prem tv money by attracting and investing in top level European players before everyone's wages get hoiked up. Stoke seem to be on top of that with a few of their signings. However, I don't think we're far from being at last season's levels - our biggest problem at the moment seems to have come from losing a clear identity of what we're good at. We're trying to outscore teams at home instead of the focus on stopping them scoring we had last year. The tactical shift by others to deliberately counterattacking strategies and also some teams going 4-4-2 to try and overload the 6 defender setups knowing they won't be challenged at the other end is also something that doesn't sit well with what we did last season, but with Wanyama at half speed most of the time I think the main problem is that we've not quite identified the best way to use the players we do have without picking him. Mane isn't such an issue on the pitch, he's putting in the usual level of effort afai can see. The simplistic description is that we've gone with Wanyama/Clasie or JWP on occasions when we should have gone with Wanyama/Romeu, and lost games 1-0 which we'd otherwise at worst have probably drawn 0-0. The fact Wanyama is even in this discussion is a bigger issue than anything else at the moment, as aside from one game where Ward-Prowse looked decent, there's no real 2 DM equivalent to Wanyama-someone else in the squad any more so we can't play defensively even if we wanted to. Obviously when Wanyama performs to try and get himself a transfer (eg v Arsenal) it shows how little there is wrong elsewhere - but even with the showcase opportunity he was crap at Man City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 If we worst was to happen and we did get relegated, I wonder how many of the current squad would remain at the club? Undoubtedly Ronald and team would go More or less all of the current squad, apart from a few of the fringe players are likely to be on weekly salaries in excess of £20k and therefore likely to be too expensive to keep with drastically reduced revenue The likelihood is that the average wage of our top 20 players is £30k per week so you could see most/all of these depart. A guesstimate of their combined transfer market value is around £150 million. If these figures are realistic the club should be in a relatively healthy state to start again in the Championship with a new squad and manager if there is a reasonable investment in new players with the ability to win promotion. However there is no guarantee of success and would Kat look to take 'profits' knowing that if promotion back to the Prem was secured it would take a fair old wedge to build the squad back up to compete again at the top level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 (edited) If we worst was to happen and we did get relegated, I wonder how many of the current squad would remain at the club? Undoubtedly Ronald and team would go More or less all of the current squad, apart from a few of the fringe players are likely to be on weekly salaries in excess of £20k and therefore likely to be too expensive to keep with drastically reduced revenue The likelihood is that the average wage of our top 20 players is £30k per week so you could see most/all of these depart. A guesstimate of their combined transfer market value is around £150 million. If these figures are realistic the club should be in a relatively healthy state to start again in the Championship with a new squad and manager if there is a reasonable investment in new players with the ability to win promotion. However there is no guarantee of success and would Kat look to take 'profits' knowing that if promotion back to the Prem was secured it would take a fair old wedge to build the squad back up to compete again at the top level. We won't get relegated, the gap is already too important for that, I am surprised that anyone even considers it a possibility. We just need 4 wins and a couple of draws from 18 games, those we'll get with ease because there is some right old crap down at the bottom. Sunderland and Villa re already gone, Newcastle,Bournemouth,Swansea and Norwich will provide the other relegatee. Edited 5 January, 2016 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 We won't get relegated, the gap is already too important for that, I am surprised that anyone even considers it a possibility. I agree with you but I thought the same in 1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 I agree with you but I thought the same in 1974 It's totally different, 3 points for a win changed everything. In those days you couldn't draw your way to relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 (edited) If we worst was to happen and we did get relegated, I wonder how many of the current squad would remain at the club? Undoubtedly Ronald and team would go More or less all of the current squad, apart from a few of the fringe players are likely to be on weekly salaries in excess of £20k and therefore likely to be too expensive to keep with drastically reduced revenue The likelihood is that the average wage of our top 20 players is £30k per week so you could see most/all of these depart. We're not going to be relegated, but for argument's sake I'll take the question. Most teams go down with squads on more than £20,000 and only lose their star players. That would be a bit different in our case as we have a lot of great players (too many to go down!) but we wouldn't lose the entire squad. West Ham kept plenty of decent players when they went down - and plenty of them are actually still there now. Edited 5 January, 2016 by DuncanRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza Posted 5 January, 2016 Share Posted 5 January, 2016 We shouldn't get relegated looking at the state of some of the teams at the bottom, but the fact we're 'looking over our shoulders' should be setting alarm bells ringing at board level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabrone Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 We won't get relegated, the gap is already too important for that, I am surprised that anyone even considers it a possibility. We just need 4 wins and a couple of draws from 18 games, those we'll get with ease because there is some right old crap down at the bottom. Sunderland and Villa re already gone, Newcastle,Bournemouth,Swansea and Norwich will provide the other relegatee. Norwich lost once in the last 5, Bournemouth lost one in the last 8, Sunderland looked lively and up for a fight on Saturday and Newcastle were unlucky not to get anything at Arsenal. All these teams look a lot better than us at the moment. Only Villa and Swansea of those beneath us don't look to be in good form. Villa are almost nailed on to go down, they need around 30 points from 18 games - that's Europa form, not going to happen. Swansea like us are in poor form, if I was a fan I'd be very concerned. We on the other hand have lost 7 of our last 9 and look toothless. Yes on balance we should get out of this but to think that SFC can't get dragged into the mire is naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Norwich lost once in the last 5, Bournemouth lost one in the last 8, Sunderland looked lively and up for a fight on Saturday and Newcastle were unlucky not to get anything at Arsenal.. And if we're cherry picking performances from the past few weeks, we beat Arsenal 4-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 And if we're cherry picking performances from the past few weeks, we beat Arsenal 4-0. "lost once in 5" and "lost one in 8" isnt cherry-picking. The most worrying thing is the sense of utter denial in these parts again. The return of the "we're too good to go down" b*ll*cks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 No one is denying anything but you would probably still be saying the same thing if we were 4th Alps Feel free to fret about relegation when we are in 13th place. Could it happen? Yes. Is there any point in wetting the bed at this point. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 No one is denying anything but you would probably still be saying the same thing if we were 4th Alps Feel free to fret about relegation when we are in 13th place. Could it happen? Yes. Is there any point in wetting the bed at this point. No. Yep, same old complacency. Lets hope things are viewed a bit more seriously at SMS. At least you're getting plenty of opportunity to wave your todger around and demonstrate to us how you are a REAL fan, eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_saints Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Any other fans like me that actually couldn't give a f**k if we get relegated or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 "lost once in 5" and "lost one in 8" isnt cherry-picking. The most worrying thing is the sense of utter denial in these parts again. The return of the "we're too good to go down" b*ll*cks... I always read your posts in Joan Collins voice from the snickers advert in the changing room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Any other fans like me that actually couldn't give a f**k if we get relegated or not? No, weird attitude. You want us to be losers? Not much of a supporter/fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Any other fans like me that actually couldn't give a f**k if we get relegated or not? I thought in 2005 it might be a change of scenery, but looking back at what subsequently happened (player exodus, disappearance from media, etc.) I would never want that to happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_saints Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 No, weird attitude. You want us to be losers? Not much of a supporter/fan. I don't care if we are winners OR losers. Of course I would prefer us to be winners given the choice. I'll be going for the **** ups if we were non league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 I always read your posts in Joan Collins voice from the snickers advert in the changing room. Any substance to discuss ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Any substance to discuss ?? What's there to discuss, yeah we could go down, yes we are in an ok position to stay up. Is our form bad, yes, does form change yes, that why it's called form. Can we play well and did we play well against Arsenal yes and yes. Do I think we will go down, NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 I do think we need to have a proper look at things - we're in "freefall" are in terrible form, cant score and leaky at the back. Do I think we'll go down? No. But it could easily happen. We should never have lost against West Ham and Norwich, but we did which pulled Norwich three points closer to us. We have a job to do over the next few months, and we need to make sure we stay up. We have some big games, and we need to start picking up points - it could look completely different in a few weeks time if we get a few wins. January 13: Watford (H) January 16: West Brom (H) January 23: Manchester United (A) February 2: Arsenal (A) February 6: West Ham (H) February 13: Swansea (A) February 27: Chelsea (H) March 1: Bournemouth (A) March 5: Sunderland (H) March 12: Stoke (A) March 19: Liverpool (H) April 2: Leicester (A) April 9: Newcastle (H) April 16: Everton (A) April 23: Aston Villa (A) April 30: Manchester City (H) May 7: Tottenham (A) May 15: Crystal Palace (H) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 40/1to be relegated. 18/1for top 6 Fair chance for any team in relegation battle to go down, so suggest anyone who thinks we are places a bet! We have decent goal difference, including that we are closer to 7th than a relegation place. In my opinion, we have better team & squad than all teams below us bar Chelsea, therefore it is likely over 2nd half of season we will do better (and am already ahead). I do not think it is rational to view us as relegation contenders, mid table more likely. Get in a slump, lose confidence we may get dragged down, but don't see it as big risk (same applies to Everton / WBA). Equally think we are good enough (eg v Arsenal, Pelle back in form etc) to have good run and climb. Table is best indicator, plus form tables but also goal difference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Any other fans like me that actually couldn't give a f**k if we get relegated or not? Me!! I would win £2k and would probably enjoy watching both us, and the Premier League as a disinterested observer, more next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 We have decent goal difference, including that we are closer to 7th than a relegation place. Get in a slump, lose confidence we may get dragged down, but don't see it as big risk (same applies to Everton / WBA). We are not closer to 7th than a relegation place, it is now the same in points and we are 1 position closer to relegation zone. You don't think 7 defeats in 9 games is a slump already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 We are not closer to 7th than a relegation place, it is now the same in points and we are 1 position closer to relegation zone. You don't think 7 defeats in 9 games is a slump already? We played Arsenal off the park. We played WHU off the park for 45 mins. Apart from the Liverpool game we could have got something out of all of the other games. Points wise we have done poorly but we are not far off winning games. If we were being played off the park every week that would be a different matter. But as things stand we are not actually in the relegation zone are we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwsaint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 I am old enough to remember 1973-74. 5th in December. Only won three games in the second half of the season and went down. It's possible that it could happen again. I think that we will scrape together enough points to keep clear of the bottom 4/5 but don't think that we will get back to where we were at the start of the season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Apart from the Liverpool game we could have got something out of all of the other games. But we didn't. Life is full of ifs and maybes. No we are not in the relegation zone and won't be for a couple or so weeks at worst, doesn't mean anything, the only time it matters is at the end of match 38 of the season. Our current "slump" shows no signs of ending any time soon, while the increasingly fewer teams below us are mostly starting to put good runs together (as usual as the business end of the season gets nearer). At the moment we are probably relying on Newcastle and Swansea failing to catch us, OK they are both ****e as well, so maybe that's how we will survive, let's hope so (ignore Villa and Sunderland they are doomed). Hopefully we will get 6 points from our next 2 league games and things will look much better, but the prospect of that happening is not too bright at present, with team spirit in tatters and a lack of serious activity in the market. If Ronald can get another performance a la Arsenal out of the team then great, but why didn't he do so against Wet Sham or Norwich? Feel free to come back at me after the Baggies and Watford wins and say "told you so", I am sure you will and I will be very happy if it happens, just that I doubt it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 at this point last season, Villa were 13th. stayed up on the last day after a decent 2nd half to the season with a cup final Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 "lost once in 5" and "lost one in 8" isnt cherry-picking. The most worrying thing is the sense of utter denial in these parts again. The return of the "we're too good to go down" b*ll*cks... Load of trolls, the lot of them, going against the 'mainstream' agenda. Just attetntion seeking with their outrageous views and predictions. Some even saying we will finish in the top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Load of trolls, the lot of them, going against the 'mainstream' agenda. Just attetntion seeking with their outrageous views and predictions. Some even saying we will finish in the top 6. Dalek, what exactly is the "mainstream agenda?" Also why is it an issue saying that we could finish in the top 6 but it is not an issue saying we are going to be in a relegation battle? If one is trolling surely so is the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 But we didn't. Life is full of ifs and maybes. No we are not in the relegation zone and won't be for a couple or so weeks at worst, doesn't mean anything, the only time it matters is at the end of match 38 of the season. Our current "slump" shows no signs of ending any time soon, while the increasingly fewer teams below us are mostly starting to put good runs together (as usual as the business end of the season gets nearer). At the moment we are probably relying on Newcastle and Swansea failing to catch us, OK they are both ****e as well, so maybe that's how we will survive, let's hope so (ignore Villa and Sunderland they are doomed). Hopefully we will get 6 points from our next 2 league games and things will look much better, but the prospect of that happening is not too bright at present, with team spirit in tatters and a lack of serious activity in the market. If Ronald can get another performance a la Arsenal out of the team then great, but why didn't he do so against Wet Sham or Norwich? Feel free to come back at me after the Baggies and Watford wins and say "told you so", I am sure you will and I will be very happy if it happens, just that I doubt it will. You start by wanting to be factual only, then do the opposite! No we did not win those games, but neither are we in relegation zone or just above it. Our current slump shows no sign of ending? Last home game? Did that look like team totally incapable of turning slump into 5 home wins? Other teams putting together good runs? Newcastle? Sunderland? Swansea? Villa? Everton? Lack of activity in window? How long has it been open? How many good signings have there been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 But we didn't. Life is full of ifs and maybes. No we are not in the relegation zone and won't be for a couple or so weeks at worst, doesn't mean anything, the only time it matters is at the end of match 38 of the season. Our current "slump" shows no signs of ending any time soon, while the increasingly fewer teams below us are mostly starting to put good runs together (as usual as the business end of the season gets nearer). At the moment we are probably relying on Newcastle and Swansea failing to catch us, OK they are both ****e as well, so maybe that's how we will survive, let's hope so (ignore Villa and Sunderland they are doomed). Hopefully we will get 6 points from our next 2 league games and things will look much better, but the prospect of that happening is not too bright at present, with team spirit in tatters and a lack of serious activity in the market. If Ronald can get another performance a la Arsenal out of the team then great, but why didn't he do so against Wet Sham or Norwich? Feel free to come back at me after the Baggies and Watford wins and say "told you so", I am sure you will and I will be very happy if it happens, just that I doubt it will. No we didn't, but we could of. We didn't get beaten out of sight which is why I am remaining optimistic about our chances through the rest of the season. We have been through a period of not being beaten with the same bunch of players so I see no reason why we cant do so again based on this squad and what we have shown we can do. It is possible that we will lose every game for the rest of the season and go down in disgrace. I prefer to think that we will continue with patchy results and remain mid table but we will see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 at this point last season, Villa were 13th. stayed up on the last day after a decent 2nd half to the season with a cup final And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 And your point is? people saying we have no chance of a cup run....look at the team in 13th, dodgy form this time last season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 And your point is? I would imagine that we're in a precarious sitution which could go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 I would imagine that we're in a precarious sitution which could go either way. a bad transfer window later for villa.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 at this point last season, Villa were 13th. stayed up on the last day after a decent 2nd half to the season with a cup final 13th this time last year but 17th and stayed up on the last day. Not quite sure how that qualifies as a decent second half to the season. Clearly worse than the first half of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 Dalek, what exactly is the "mainstream agenda?" Also why is it an issue saying that we could finish in the top 6 but it is not an issue saying we are going to be in a relegation battle? If one is trolling surely so is the other? More people are talking about the possibility of a relegation fight than finishing in the top 6, which now seems absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 6 January, 2016 Share Posted 6 January, 2016 13th this time last year but 17th and stayed up on the last day. Not quite sure how that qualifies as a decent second half to the season. Clearly worse than the first half of the season. I think the board would be satisfied with 17th. Objective 1 achieved..'stay in the premier league' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 13 February, 2016 Author Share Posted 13 February, 2016 What a difference 6 weeks makes! Well done to Mr Koeman and the lads. That'll confirm us getting the whopping telly money next season then, unless something out of the ordinary occurs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 We are in a relegation battle. No brainier. We are appallingly run. No ambition in our Boardroom who have turned us in to a selling club. Players expect to leave when they peak and we are seeing that play out now. 'Operate within our means' philosophy is flawed if we wish to stay in the Premier League. Only way forward is going to be a new wealthier owner and new talent to run the club. Koemans will go at the end of their contract if not. I don't think we will reinforce this winter and sadly can see no chance of anything other than further asset stripping in the summer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Golden post contender:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StratfordSaint Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 Aren't perennially negative people so depressing and boring? You know who you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 If you replicate the last 3 results we would take 18 points, and finish on 42. Which this season will probably mean relegation. 40 points is the usual target I know, but it is so close this season that 40 will probably not be enough. Anyone who seriously still thinks that we are not heading towards possible relegation is simply kidding themselves. I still think it won't happen, but we need to start turning things around very soon an grinding out some results, a 0-0 today would have been acceptable against one of our potential rivals for the drop, losing against our rivals is a real problem. 42 points would mean relegation? 42 points meant 14th last season and 12th and 13th the two before that, but yeah, you're probably right. Also 40 points has meant relegation once in this millennium and that was more than a decade ago. But yeah. Bang on. I wonder if 40 points will be enough? I really don't have a clue how many Sunderland might win, they are not really the issue. Can Newcastle win 3 more than us in the remainder of the season? You bet your life they can. They won 4 of their first 19, so if they win 4 of their last 19 and we win 1 then they could overtake us (simplistically speaking). Will they? Don't know, but that's all its down to now. Don't assume 40 will be safe this season, it is highly likely with the results so far that this will be one of those statistically unusual seasons when more than 40 is required. You think we're going to win one game between now and the end of the season? Christ. After 20 games last year the team third from bottom had 17 which is identical to this season. There's nothing at all to suggest that 40 points will be required for survival. I wonder if we have won more than one game since these posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 (edited) I wonder if 40 points will be enough? I wonder if we have won more than one game since these posts? ... Edited 13 February, 2016 by VectisSaint Not worth replying to such a **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Lej Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 Lol calm down veccy. It just seems some people were having a full blown panic attack a month ago and are now looking a bit silly. I myself was a little worried but that isolated Arsenal game was solace enough to know that we should have had way too much in our tank to be sucked into a relegation battle. Incidentally, palace are having a very similarly bad run now as we've just had. I wonder what levels of panic their fans are having. Genuine thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 ... When you say "such a c*nt" you mean someone who pointed out what utter sh*t you were spouting yes? Because you seem to start thinking I'm a c*nt as well, right at a similar time when I pointed out you were talking bo locks about Lee. There's a pattern here pal, when you think it everyone else that is the problem maybe it's actually you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 Load of trolls, the lot of them, going against the 'mainstream' agenda. Just attetntion seeking with their outrageous views and predictions. Some even saying we will finish in the top 6. Yeah, nutters, the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Tel49 Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 Yeah, nutters, the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 ... "Can Newcastle win 3 more than us in the remainder of the season? You bet your life they can." Thanks for being you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 February, 2016 Share Posted 13 February, 2016 When you say "such a c*nt" you mean someone who pointed out what utter sh*t you were spouting yes? Because you seem to start thinking I'm a c*nt as well, right at a similar time when I pointed out you were talking bo locks about Lee. There's a pattern here pal, when you think it everyone else that is the problem maybe it's actually you. I didn't call anyone a c*nt, guess you just assumed thats what Cbeeby would be referred to as. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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