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Koeman this season


Papa Shango

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Thought I'd put this out there. Thoughts on Koeman's work this season and his future http://thesaintshub.com/december2015roundup.html

 

A fair read. MP is a better manager without a doubt but getting rid of Koeman now would be a folly. He needs to change his attitude towards the young players, get the current squad fitter and realise that the likes of Pelle and Tadic aren't scrappers.

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Thought I'd put this out there. Thoughts on Koeman's work this season and his future http://thesaintshub.com/december2015roundup.html

 

A really good analysis of what's gone on since RK arrived. Hard to argue that Pochettino achieved with Saints, and is achieving with Spurs - a superior set of results and an improvement of players in his squad, including young recruits and academy products. The question marks over our recruitment team also ring true with the suspicion that the departure of Mitchell was significant.

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A fair read. MP is a better manager without a doubt but getting rid of Koeman now would be a folly. He needs to change his attitude towards the young players, get the current squad fitter and realise that the likes of Pelle and Tadic aren't scrappers.

 

Agree with most of that FF, but tbf..Pochettino inherited a fairly stable side and just upped the tempo, and we didn't see any real success until the following season.

The idea that he "discovered" all our young successful players is bit of a fallacy, which the media has exploited since the success of Kane and Mason at Spurs, who had both had several good seasons out on loan with lower league sides, prior to his arrival, and it was their success that helped him keep his job.

Had MP persisted with those " appauling players " signed in the wake of the Bale transfer legacy, he'd have been sacked by Christmas last year.

 

Luke Shaw had already played a dozen first team games before MP arrived. Preferring him over Fox was surely a no-brainer, and JWP was already an Adkins squad player.

 

MP bought in Wanyama and Lovren (or maybe the Black Box did the job for him), but Cortese's pandering to him (in buying Osvaldo) must go down as one of the worst (and most expensive) transfer disasters in many a year. (I'd wager that Osvaldo wasn't a leading name in the Black Box's evaluations ).

 

As with other managers, MP only fielded U21 players in Cup games, but his use of the likes of Reed and Gallagher was very restricted, and often forced on by injuries.

Using Chambers (at RB) was an example of a player forced into action (by Clyne's pre-season injury) when CC wasn't even a regular choice for the U21 side.

MP's use of those same inexperienced players in the vital Sunderland Cup match (that we lost) was gross negligence when we were probably in sight of a Cup Final place.

 

The "success" of those players (who eventually left) was more a reflection of the overall team performance (in breaking into Prem's Top 10) than any individual's progress.

It was Pochettino's desertion that led to us losing half the side in one summer, but to his credit Koeman did very well last season, but the effects of losing what was .... (effectively 7 established names in less than 2 years)...has taken it's obvious toll. Of those who left, Schneiderlin and Clyne were (argueably) the best of the bunch.

 

Without Forster, and the continued absence of Jay Rod and a "misfiring Pellé and Mané " has shown the shortcomings in attack. My only criticism is that, although talented players, our midfield choices are all too lightweight against the " more physical " Prem sides, and Wanyama isn't performing anywhere near last season's level.

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Generally in football we support clubs rather than individuals.

 

However you are clearly a Pochettino fan.

 

If you love him so much, why don't you just follow whatever his current team is and more importantly post your one sided views on their website?

 

It's a good strategy really, next year you will be supporting a big Spanish club which could be great fun.

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If MP is such a better manager, how did Koeman manage to achieve more with less resources.

Although RK improved our league position by one place (wow) the standard of football under MP the previous season was significantly better. And MP was prepared to blood youngsters - Gallager for instance featured in half our Premier Lg games in 13-14.

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If MP is such a better manager, how did Koeman manage to achieve more with less resources.

 

any team that has hooiiveld and fox playing, let alone at the same time.... is no way better.

I think MP is the better manager and will go on to have a better career playing better football. He clearly has a better view of blooding youngsters than Koeman.

 

Koeman is a good manager. But in terms of this thread. MP is the next level up.

Edited by Batman
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Although RK improved our league position by one place (wow) the standard of football under MP the previous season was significantly better. And MP was prepared to blood youngsters - Gallager for instance featured in half our Premier Lg games in 13-14.

 

So you can't answer my question.

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any team that has hooiiveld and fox playing, let alone at the same time.... is no way better.

I think MP is the better manager and will go on to have a better career playing better football. He clearly has a better view of blooding youngsters than Koeman.

 

Koeman is a good manager. But in terms of this thread. MP is the next level up.

 

Which youngsters did MP blood for us?

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Agree with most of that FF, but tbf..Pochettino inherited a fairly stable side and just upped the tempo, and we didn't see any real success until the following season.

The idea that he "discovered" all our young successful players is bit of a fallacy, which the media has exploited since the success of Kane and Mason at Spurs, who had both had several good seasons out on loan with lower league sides, prior to his arrival, and it was their success that helped him keep his job.

Had MP persisted with those " appauling players " signed in the wake of the Bale transfer legacy, he'd have been sacked by Christmas last year.

 

Luke Shaw had already played a dozen first team games before MP arrived. Preferring him over Fox was surely a no-brainer, and JWP was already an Adkins squad player.

 

MP bought in Wanyama and Lovren (or maybe the Black Box did the job for him), but Cortese's pandering to him (in buying Osvaldo) must go down as one of the worst (and most expensive) transfer disasters in many a year. (I'd wager that Osvaldo wasn't a leading name in the Black Box's evaluations ).

 

As with other managers, MP only fielded U21 players in Cup games, but his use of the likes of Reed and Gallagher was very restricted, and often forced on by injuries.

Using Chambers (at RB) was an example of a player forced into action (by Clyne's pre-season injury) when CC wasn't even a regular choice for the U21 side.

MP's use of those same inexperienced players in the vital Sunderland Cup match (that we lost) was gross negligence when we were probably in sight of a Cup Final place.

 

The "success" of those players (who eventually left) was more a reflection of the overall team performance (in breaking into Prem's Top 10) than any individual's progress.

It was Pochettino's desertion that led to us losing half the side in one summer, but to his credit Koeman did very well last season, but the effects of losing what was .... (effectively 7 established names in less than 2 years)...has taken it's obvious toll. Of those who left, Schneiderlin and Clyne were (argueably) the best of the bunch.

 

Without Forster, and the continued absence of Jay Rod and a "misfiring Pellé and Mané " has shown the shortcomings in attack. My only criticism is that, although talented players, our midfield choices are all too lightweight against the " more physical " Prem sides, and Wanyama isn't performing anywhere near last season's level.

 

A very compelling argument. Changed my mind.

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It is all very well to talk about blooding youngsters but they also have to be good enough. Gallagher for example may have featured in first team games but how many goals did he score? How many assists? How come he didn't press on and become a regular?

Edited by sadoldgit
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We just seem like a bunch of losers who keep pining over our previous girlfriend having been dumped for someone cooler and with more success. To reach our highest premiership level last season after losing a number of players was amazing but now it just gets a sarcastic "wow." It is impossible for a club the size of Southampton to continue to grow every season and Koeman is right to talk about managing expectations. You just have to look at Chelsea and United this season to see that success is not nailed on, even for a so called top four club.

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Gallagher seems to be out of favour at MK Dons where he is hardly pulling up trees. Not the best example. Stephens not playing at Middlesborough, Turnbull in div 1, McCarthy in div 2

Seager (For U21 6 goals in 6(1) appearances, Reed and Hesketh should surely be near to the first team bench

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Generally in football we support clubs rather than individuals.

 

However you are clearly a Pochettino fan.

 

If you love him so much, why don't you just follow whatever his current team is and more importantly post your one sided views on their website?

 

It's a good strategy really, next year you will be supporting a big Spanish club which could be great fun.

 

Yep. I don't know why this thread has "Koeman" in the title, it should really be "I miss Pochettino and Cortese so, so much and it still really hurts".

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A fair read. MP is a better manager without a doubt but getting rid of Koeman now would be a folly. He needs to change his attitude towards the young players, get the current squad fitter and realise that the likes of Pelle and Tadic aren't scrappers.

 

how is that without a doubt?

 

MP came to us after getting sacked because his team were facing relegation. He joined one of the most talented and settled squads I can remember, and got us 8th, which at best was seen as 'best of the rest', while also surrenderig in the cups

 

Hes now joined a team seemingly termanally stuck in a fight for 5-4th, and this season has them fighting around.....5-4th place. In a season where Leicester are top!

 

Koeman meanwhile joined in the middle of a storm for our club, where most pundits had us favourite for relegation. But with a much diminished squad and using players, you yourself, have mostly written off, manged to get us to our highest ever points total and position in the prem

 

there might be an argument to be had over who is better, but to say it is without doubt is ridiculous

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If Koeman can't improve players , struggles to motivate , can't coach the defense , can't seem to offer a definitive style of football and can't make choices which change a game then why not look to see if better is available?

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

 

Like who ? Van Gall that worked....Moyes that worked...McLaren thats working....Garde doing really well...Fat Sam jury out....so can you suggest someone who can work with a club who constantly sells any player of substance? Has to rebuild from nothing, hands are tied by wage caps.

Suffering from past chairman's foibles Ramirez and Osvaldo where we have to right off millions?

Who do you think Redknapp, Pearson, Advocaat, Sherwood ?

Don't get me wrong I am not happy with Koemans performance this year and I am wondering if he has given up myself but sack him?

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Like who ? Van Gall that worked....Moyes that worked...McLaren thats working....Garde doing really well...Fat Sam jury out....so can you suggest someone who can work with a club who constantly sells any player of substance? Has to rebuild from nothing, hands are tied by wage caps.

Suffering from past chairman's foibles Ramirez and Osvaldo where we have to right off millions?

Who do you think Redknapp, Pearson, Advocaat, Sherwood ?

Don't get me wrong I am not happy with Koemans performance this year and I am wondering if he has given up myself but sack him?

Well considering he gets paid very well and built up his team of coaches and cherry picked the players he wanted you would think that if he had given up , that his career would and should be over .

Would rather he walked away than give up .

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

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If you have given up why get so angry at the performance the other day? He said that he expected it to be tougher this year. Why not walk away at the beginning of the season? Perhaps we should only employ managers who only win football matches and sack them the minute they lose?

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Gallagher seems to be out of favour at MK Dons where he is hardly pulling up trees. Not the best example. Stephens not playing at Middlesborough, Turnbull in div 1, McCarthy in div 2

Seager (For U21 6 goals in 6(1) appearances, Reed and Hesketh should surely be near to the first team bench

 

If these players were here and playing or getting games from the bench and we had still gone through this slump would Ron be getting stick for using players not good enough?

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If you have given up why get so angry at the performance the other day? He said that he expected it to be tougher this year. Why not walk away at the beginning of the season? Perhaps we should only employ managers who only win football matches and sack them the minute they lose?

Go back and read it again!

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Koeman was exactly the type we needed last season , a calm head that was used to players moving on to bigger clubs and accepted it by just getting on with the job .However, I'm not convinced he's anything other than an OK manager .

 

I share others disappointment with the devolopment of our youth , but it's a chicken & egg situation. Would Poch have played more nippers , maybe , although he did take weeks to play Kane regularly. I do think Poch made 4/5 of our players better , I'm not convinced Ron has done that for any player . Maybe RB , although he's been poor lately .

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Yep, you are wondering if he has given up.

Exactly...by sadoldgit View Post

If you have given up why get so angry at the performance the other day? So whats that about? I got angry because I don't like seeing my side just give up without a fight. Koeman has made some odd decisions - why leave Wanyama on for 90 minutes on that display? Are we ok to let a player just stroll about and accept that - maybe you can but I don't have to and why I voiced on here.

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So not answering the question either, fair enough.

 

No problem

I expanded my point in what I personally see as "blooding" young players, in my response

 

 

Sorry it failed to answer the question you posed. Or was not the answer you were looking for

 

But the response I have quoted is classic sour mash. Good work.

 

 

Merry Xmas

Edited by Batman
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Generally in football we support clubs rather than individuals.

 

However you are clearly a Pochettino fan.

 

If you love him so much, why don't you just follow whatever his current team is and more importantly post your one sided views on their website?

 

It's a good strategy really, next year you will be supporting a big Spanish club which could be great fun.

 

Do I have to support Man Utd to say that man Ferguson was a dab hand?

 

So not answering the question either, fair enough.

 

I've answered it before, one sec...

 

We all know Chambers is the shining example, but he also gave Gallagher his debut and many other opportunities, brought Reed into the fold with the first team and gave debuts to McQueen, Rowe and Sinclair. He played Ward-Prowse in practically every league game (sometimes from the bench) and, of course, helped develop Shaw as well.
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No problem

I expanded my point in what I personally see as "blooding" young players, in my response

 

 

Sorry it failed to answer the question you posed. Or was not the answer you were looking for

 

But the response I have quoted is classic sour mash. Good work.

 

 

Merry Xmas

Merry Xmas indeed :lol:
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I've answered it before, one sec...

Chambers I agree with. Why is MP's use of Ward-Prowse different to Koeman's?

 

And Rowe, McQueen and Sinclair versus Hesketh, Gape and Seagar?

 

How much football would Gallagher have played if the signing of that promising English youngster Danny Oslvado hadn't turned into a monumental f**k up?

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If you don't know the difference between 'bear' and 'bare', it's probably the case that you're either slack with your spell checking (although it should never actually come to that) or you're pretty thick.

 

I'd go for the latter and leave it at that. Well done to whoever wrote a rather crap piece of opinion-guff.

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Although RK improved our league position by one place (wow) the standard of football under MP the previous season was significantly better. And MP was prepared to blood youngsters - Gallager for instance featured in half our Premier Lg games in 13-14.

 

All a matter of opinion but I don't think that first part is true, in fact I thought we were much more entertaining last season than we ever were under MP. Under MP we were great to watch without the ball but when we had it it was a different matter altogether. We were slow, ponderous team that was obsessed with possession for the sake of it, and one of the reasons I enjoyed us so much last season was we started to go at teams a bit more. That has completely gone this season and we've become once again a slow, possession based team who seem more interested in pass completion percentages than in goals scored and chances created. But the strange thing is that whilst that's how we look on the pitch, it doesn't really correlate with how Koeman speaks. Whenever he talks I find myself thinking he has the right mentality, but then his team goes out on the pitch and fails to deliver on what he says.

 

As for the youngsters, there is no doubt in my mind that MP is more committed to developing young players, but we probably have to accept that we don't have many youngster currently good enough. Gallagher has never looked good enough when given chances and is now really struggling at MK Dons. Reed and possibly Seager are the only ones that can feel as though they should have got more chances this season

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Exactly...by sadoldgit View Post

If you have given up why get so angry at the performance the other day? So whats that about? I got angry because I don't like seeing my side just give up without a fight. Koeman has made some odd decisions - why leave Wanyama on for 90 minutes on that display? Are we ok to let a player just stroll about and accept that - maybe you can but I don't have to and why I voiced on here.

 

Because he is clearly frustrated at the performance of the players, and rightly so. I cant answer the question about Wanyama and that is part of the problem. We make assumptions as to what he is thinking. He is the manager, he makes the calls for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see if he persists much longer with Vic.

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We just seem like a bunch of losers who keep pining over our previous girlfriend having been dumped for someone cooler and with more success. To reach our highest premiership level last season after losing a number of players was amazing but now it just gets a sarcastic "wow." It is impossible for a club the size of Southampton to continue to grow every season and Koeman is right to talk about managing expectations. You just have to look at Chelsea and United this season to see that success is not nailed on, even for a so called top four club.

 

I have been murdered for expressing such sentiments.

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If you don't know the difference between 'bear' and 'bare', it's probably the case that you're either slack with your spell checking (although it should never actually come to that) or you're pretty thick.

 

I'd go for the latter and leave it at that. Well done to whoever wrote a rather crap piece of opinion-guff.

 

How rude !

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It is all very well to talk about blooding youngsters but they also have to be good enough. Gallagher for example may have featured in first team games but how many goals did he score? How many assists? How come he didn't press on and become a regular?
r

He scored twice from just two starts if memory serves and then he got injured in pre season which sidelined him for 6 months, so quite hard to press on as you put it. Once fit Koeman put him on the bench just once, away to Leicester, but despite us getting well beaten declined to give him any game time when even a few minutes would has boosted his confidence. Since then RK has ignored him and he has loaned him out.

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r

He scored twice from just two starts if memory serves and then he got injured in pre season which sidelined him for 6 months, so quite hard to press on as you put it. Once fit Koeman put him on the bench just once, away to Leicester, but despite us getting well beaten declined to give him any game time when even a few minutes would has boosted his confidence. Since then RK has ignored him and he has loaned him out.

 

How much time would Gallagher have got if Osvaldo hadn't been such a f**k up?

 

He's not up to Premier League standard anyway.

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All a matter of opinion but I don't think that first part is true, in fact I thought we were much more entertaining last season than we ever were under MP. Under MP we were great to watch without the ball but when we had it it was a different matter altogether. We were slow, ponderous team that was obsessed with possession for the sake of it, and one of the reasons I enjoyed us so much last season was we started to go at teams a bit more. That has completely gone this season and we've become once again a slow, possession based team who seem more interested in pass completion percentages than in goals scored and chances created. But the strange thing is that whilst that'us how we look on the pitch, it doesn't really correlate with how Koeman speaks. Whenever he talks I find myself thinking he has the right mentality, but then his team goes out on the pitch and fails to deliver on what he says.

 

As for the youngsters, there is no doubt in my mind that MP is more committed to developing young players, but we probably have to accept that we don't have many youngster currently good enough. Gallagher has never looked good enough when given chances and is now really struggling at MK Dons. Reed and possibly Seager are the only ones that can feel as though they should have got more chances this season

 

You make some fair points but before moving on and still on the subject of Gallagher my point is I don't think he has been given a chance by Koeman. He was injured when Koeman pitched up, scored a truly great goal in the U21 final when he regained fitness but ever since Koeman has ignored him. He needs to give him a go especially as Rodriguez is injured and Pelle's knee needs a rest. There is a likelihood Gallagher's loan at MK Dons will be terminated at the beginning of next month so the timing couldn't be better.

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You make some fair points but before moving on and still on the subject of Gallagher my point is I don't think he has been given a chance by Koeman. He was injured when Koeman pitched up, scored a truly great goal in the U21 final when he regained fitness but ever since Koeman has ignored him. He needs to give him a go especially as Rodriguez is injured and Pelle's knee needs a rest. There is a likelihood Gallagher's loan at MK Dons will be terminated at the beginning of next month so the timing couldn't be better.

 

FF, why do you think he'll cut it at Premier level when he can't even cut it at MK Dons?

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Chambers I agree with. Why is MP's use of Ward-Prowse different to Koeman's?

 

And Rowe, McQueen and Sinclair versus Hesketh, Gape and Seagar?

 

How much football would Gallagher have played if the signing of that promising English youngster Danny Oslvado hadn't turned into a monumental f**k up?

 

You're right about Gallagher, of course, but Ward-Prowse was used marginally more under Pochettino, starting most league games and always coming off the bench if he didn't.

 

I suppose you could add that while he didn't introduce Rodriguez to the team, he did push his game up several notches and turned him into one of the first names on the teamsheet.

 

Anyway, I think we'd all agree that Pochettino's more impressive use of youth has been at Spurs, where there are boys getting into the team ahead of highly paid and experienced internationals.

 

It's not that we want a return to the circumstances of the 2013/14 season, more the belief in youth he's showing there and showed, perhaps to a lesser extent, while he was here.

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Which youngsters did MP blood for us?

 

Youngsters who got their debut under MP were Mcqueen, Gallagher, Sinclair, Reed. He also gave PL debuts to Chambers.

While not giving players like Shaw their debuts he gave them a lot of game time and they clearly improved from that.

 

Our squad at that time was fairly young overall.

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All a matter of opinion but I don't think that first part is true, in fact I thought we were much more entertaining last season than we ever were under MP. Under MP we were great to watch without the ball but when we had it it was a different matter altogether. We were slow, ponderous team that was obsessed with possession for the sake of it, and one of the reasons I enjoyed us so much last season was we started to go at teams a bit more. That has completely gone this season and we've become once again a slow, possession based team who seem more interested in pass completion percentages than in goals scored and chances created. But the strange thing is that whilst that's how we look on the pitch, it doesn't really correlate with how Koeman speaks. Whenever he talks I find myself thinking he has the right mentality, but then his team goes out on the pitch and fails to deliver on what he says.

 

As for the youngsters, there is no doubt in my mind that MP is more committed to developing young players, but we probably have to accept that we don't have many youngster currently good enough. Gallagher has never looked good enough when given chances and is now really struggling at MK Dons. Reed and possibly Seager are the only ones that can feel as though they should have got more chances this season

 

Nonsense.

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Youngsters who got their debut under MP were Mcqueen, Gallagher, Sinclair, Reed. He also gave PL debuts to Chambers.

While not giving players like Shaw their debuts he gave them a lot of game time and they clearly improved from that.

 

Our squad at that time was fairly young overall.

So, as stated above, apart from Chambers, no different to Koeman.

 

Which of the current U21s have you seen that you would compare to Chambers and think should be getting regular run outs for the first team?

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You're right about Gallagher, of course, but Ward-Prowse was used marginally more under Pochettino, starting most league games and always coming off the bench if he didn't.

 

I suppose you could add that while he didn't introduce Rodriguez to the team, he did push his game up several notches and turned him into one of the first names on the teamsheet.

 

Anyway, I think we'd all agree that Pochettino's more impressive use of youth has been at Spurs, where there are boys getting into the team ahead of highly paid and experienced internationals.

 

It's not that we want a return to the circumstances of the 2013/14 season, more the belief in youth he's showing there and showed, perhaps to a lesser extent, while he was here.

Right, so you agree that Koeman and MP pretty similar for us, which was my original point.

 

Which of our under 21s have you seen look comparable to say Dier or Ali?

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Generally in football we support clubs rather than individuals.

 

However you are clearly a Pochettino fan.

 

If you love him so much, why don't you just follow whatever his current team is and more importantly post your one sided views on their website?

 

It's a good strategy really, next year you will be supporting a big Spanish club which could be great fun.

Weird. Precious. Odd.

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