Stood still for too long

[VectisSaint]

Well yes, provided that they don't peg it 12 months later apparently leaving no clear instructions as to the follow up.

Or maybe clear instructions were left and acted upon...

[david in sweden]

The board need to wake up.

 

They flogged a lot of best players over the past 2 years and brought in cheap replacements that do not enhance the quality of the first team, and arguably have not really increased squad depth. Whilst banking the remaining cash.

 

Standing still in this business is a killer, and that is what we've done. LVG spent 260million since he took over and look how f**king crap Manyoo are still.

Where's the original thinking and attention to detail gone ? We seem to be resting on our laurels. No youngsters are coming through either.

Where's Cortese ?

 

I don't always agree with your viewpoint Alpine....well who does? ........But I think you've answered your own question on the OP.

 

To say the Board sold our best players maybe true to some extent, but what player ...earning say £40/50K week at SFC will refuse £100K/ week at Liverpool or Man U.?

and looking at the progress (or lack of it) in the careers of those who departed in summer 2014...I think we came out on top.

 

Of course it's true to say that Schneiderlin will be hard / if not impossible / to replace, but so too were; MLT, Michael Svensson and Antti Niemi, but we moved on.

 

In quoting the £260 million that LVG has spent..... surely proves the very point that throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away. He has bought in a load of talented individuals who might only have played against each other in the past, because they don't look anything like "a team" except for wearing the same shirts.

MU now are more boring than Arsenal were pre-Wenger ....(and that's saying something).

 

True ....there are no youngsters on the horizon who are likely to break into the first team squad, but there isn't a magic formula that produces a new one every season, and those U21 players who are around at present may come good in a year or two....if they're not already playing in L1, by then.

 

Bringing Cortese's name into the frame surely is the last straw, as his two big parade signings (Ramirez and Osvaldo) have been the club's most expensive catastrophies.

As if their record fees weren't enough to swallow...paying off Osvaldo's contract ...and then having to pay out Ramirez (rumoured) £65K /week for 4 years ...just to have him run around training at Staplewood is the grossest (and most expensive) insult the club has ever had to bear.

The fact that Cortese probably OK'd both deals from dubious Italian sources doesn't make it feel any better either.

 

We've signed around a dozen players since Koeman joined and we must admit that the majority of them have been value for money, whilst others haven't settled in.

£ for £ or perhaps Euro for Euro, we've haven't overspent our budget and (unlike MU or Liverpool) aren't panicking to get into the top 4 by next May.

 

Koeman needs time, but SORRY ....as someone who watched Saints struggle to make it to the top half of the League (in those 27 seasons) - I'm not so unhappy.

[CB Fry]

Or maybe clear instructions were left and acted upon...

Id say they definitely were. And when the club started to stray from that vision, changes were made.

[doddisalegend]

Typically when our prospects for improvement in this division are debated, the usual guff is trotted out that we cannot hope to break into the top four, because that is the exclusive preserve of four or five glory clubs, whose Worldwide reputation attracts massive fan support and sponsorship, the wealthiest owners and some of the best players in the World. How can we possibly compete against those advantages?

 

Well, how can Leicester manage to be the top club in the league at the moment, whilst simultaneously the former Champions with the supposed best manager, languish in the bottom half of the table? Now it might be that Chelsea have a storming second half of the season and haul themselves up into the top 5 and that Leicester suffer the fate of many other medium sized clubs who fade away into mid-table obscurity. But if Leicester finish in the top four, that will mean that it is possible to do so with players who cost no more than the ones we have bought, but also that a manager like Ranieri can make a substantial difference to a club's chances.

 

TBF Wes I don't think the argument is that a top six big boy team can't have a bad season or that a mid-table side like Leicester can't have an amazing season and finish the top six as a one off. The argument is can a club our size break the top six season after season the answer would be very unlikely I'd say. Can Leicester repeat this season next? will Chelsea be rubbish for more than one season? no to both IMO

[CB Fry]

TBF Wes I don't think the argument is that a top six big boy team can't have a bad season or that a mid-table side like Leicester can't have an amazing season and finish the top six as a one off. The argument is can a club our size break the top six season after season the answer would be very unlikely I'd say. Can Leicester repeat this season next? will Chelsea be rubbish for more than one season? no to both IMO

 

Quite right. Wes rolls out the same post over and over again, knocking over a false argument based on things that no one has ever said.

 

Can a club like Leicester or Saints finish top four in a given season? Yes, of course they can. No one thinks it's impossible, just very unlikely and very difficult. I still think LCFC will fall short and finish 6th or 7th.

 

It's only a couple of seasons back that Newcastle finished fifth, coincidentally the last time Chelsea had a meltdown season.

 

As you suggest, even if Leicester finish top four, it doesn't make them a "Champions League club", just one that has qualified once. Come next year, I'd say that Leicester will be, at best, struggling to cope with the demands of lots of additional games, or at worst having an underwhelming follow-up season like we are.

 

As Les Reed has said over and over and over again, we just need to stick to our plan and hope it comes together one season for us to break into the top 4 once. We need a perfect season and we need at least one bigger club to have a nightmare season. Perfectly possible, incredibly unlikely. Good luck Leicester.

[Wade Garrett]

Well it actually says LvG has spent 260 million but the point is the same.

We must have spent almost half of that sum since Pochettino left I think so the point isn't particulary valid.

At the end of the day what you need to do well in the PL is a couple of prolific strikers and someone to supply them, the rest

isn't particularly important because it's about the same throughout the league.

Chelsea are the golden example of this, Costa and Hazard aren't scoring and Fabregas isn't setting them up, the rest of their side is roughly identical to that that took the PL by storm last year.

 

That's a bit disingenuous. We may have spent a lot of money, but we have sold much more than we have spent.

[CB Fry]

That's a bit disingenuous. We may have spent a lot of money, but we have sold much more than we have spent.

That's equally disingenuous. We're still putting out a phenomenally expensive team/squad, with £10m plus players in goal, defence, midfield and attack, and on the bench.

[Mr Biscuits]

Awesome another Alpine +1 thread.

[saint michael]

Not sure we have changed our philosophy so standing still may be an outcome of recruitment and that the continued changes are having an effect. Things that concern me are:- not being able to keep Toby and add players like VVD, squad body language doesn't seem quite the same this year, leaders on the pitch and I know this will not be popular but we are starting to see what Poch is doing at Spurs and think we miss this too...much as I believe Rin is great guy

[saint michael]

Ron even

[Roger]

Not sure about that. Playing behind Morgan and Wanyama was a huge bonus for him.

 

And yet this season tony is better than ever without them infront of him.

[Shance]

I think some saints fans need to settle down, remember who we are and where we've come from. A few seasons of success has spoilt a lot of fans.

 

We were always premier league strugglers and relied on the likes of Le Tiss to pull us of the ****. I remember when we were in league one, loads were saying that they would love to just be a stable PL side that had a cup run or two every now and then.

 

Well that's now what we are yet there's still a lot of moaning?

 

I'm enjoying being a Saints fan and whilst it's not quite as exciting as the last minute relegation escapes, we are at times playing some sublime football.

 

Some people expect far too much. Champions League? Fair play to Leicester if they get it but there'll fade like we did imo.

 

Anyway, through thick and thin UTFS!!

Edited 11 December, 2015 by Shance

[ally_uk]

Agree with the above bunch of wet tarts on here..... At least give it some time for the new players to bed in juanmi I reckon is going to be a big hit give the lad time to bed in

[SonicBoom]

I think that our first eleven is a match for anyone. If we slide down the table a little we automatically start panicking and thinking the way back is to spend.

At the moment our team is probably good enough to be in and around the top 6. Arguably higher if you look at Leicester's example.

So what we should be concentrating on is why the team are underperforming at the moment.

[Shance]

I honestly don't think this current squad or first XI for that matter is good enough for the top 6.

[sadoldgit]

I honestly don't think this current squad or first XI for that matter is good enough for the top 6.

 

You are probably right. When everything clicks we are a match for anyone in this league but the problem is that we are more fragile this season and it doesn't take much to knock us out of our stride. We are a decent mid table side at present. A couple of decent players in January could change that but who do you bring in?

[norwaysaint]

I honestly don't think this current squad or first XI for that matter is good enough for the top 6.

 

Arguably higher?

[Shance]

Arguably higher?

 

What?

[norwaysaint]

What?

 

The post you were referring to said that we could not only finish in the top six, but arguably higher.

[Shance]

Lol no.

[ScepticalStan]

Funny how when I gently pointed out that our squad had serious issues a month or two ago I was shouted down and told that we were good enough for the top six and were better than we were last year

 

In all seriousness, we've probably built up enough points to give the players that we do have an achievable target of staying in mid-table till the end of the season, but we certainly need to keep an eye out for replacements (particularly for Mane and Wanyama) right f*cking now. Get the scouts out there and make sure we're first in the queue come the summer for the next Dele Ali/Riyad Mahrez/Sadio Mane.

 

If we aren't ready to rock and roll in the transfer market come July 1st, I really will be furious as there won't be any excuse whatsoever.

 

Take 3/5 from Fonte, Bertrand, Mane, Wanyama and VVD out of that squad and we'd get relegated. No question. Now granted you could say that about many other sides in the league, but the difference for us is that we know now at least two of those key players will definitely be on their way, another will have a lot of interest from big clubs and another will have aged another year in his 30s.

[Toadhall Saint]

Funny how when I gently pointed out that our squad had serious issues a month or two ago I was shouted down and told that we were good enough for the top six and were better than we were last year

 

In all seriousness, we've probably built up enough points to give the players that we do have an achievable target of staying in mid-table till the end of the season, but we certainly need to keep an eye out for replacements (particularly for Mane and Wanyama) right f*cking now. Get the scouts out there and make sure we're first in the queue come the summer for the next Dele Ali/Riyad Mahrez/Sadio Mane.

 

If we aren't ready to rock and roll in the transfer market come July 1st, I really will be furious as there won't be any excuse whatsoever.

 

Take 3/5 from Fonte, Bertrand, Mane, Wanyama and VVD out of that squad and we'd get relegated. No question. Now granted you could say that about many other sides in the league, but the difference for us is that we know now at least two of those key players will definitely be on their way, another will have a lot of interest from big clubs and another will have aged another year in his 30s.

 

Are you Alpine Saint in disguise?

[saint1977]

Think this is getting OTT, poor run of performances and results and Ron/Jose have made a clear pitch for funds to freshen up but doesn't constitute a crisis yet IMO.

 

The club made some mistakes in the transfer market this summer and hopefully they have learned from them. That's not to say Cedric, Clasie and Romeu won't come good in time either, they have good pedigree. VVD has been fantastic and Stek is OK, he isn't Fraser but who honestly thought he would be? Martina did my head in as a signing and one would hope the club don't go down the Rupert Lowe squad filler route when we replaced an ageing Dodd with first Kenton, then Nilsson, both of which looked good from a moneyball perspective, were cheap but utter toss. If there is another instance of a similar signing, then fair enough, sound the alarm bell but I think a lesson was learned.

[Chez]

 

Mane would be a major loss but we could change the way we play.

 

 

tell me more, because every time I see him, I think, what a bloody fantastic player he is, and that just makes me think that we will struggle to keep hold next summer.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

We were a little handicap with what we could do in the summer (though I maintain the signings of Juanmi and Romeu were not great). FFP rules state that we can only increase the wage bill £4m a season plus anything we gain from new commercial deals. We know our commercial revenue is awful and that is being worked on (and that is why this summer is huge for us) so basically in the summer we could only increase our wage bill by a net increase of £80k a week.

 

So if I were to just guess:

 

Out

Schneiderlin- 40k a week

Clyne - 30k a week

Hooiveld - 20k a week

Mayuka - 30k a week

Alderweireld - 50k a week (even though he was on loan we paid his wages and they would have counted towards our cap for last season)

 

Elia and Djurcic I am not sure about - I've left them out for now.

 

I have not included Osvaldo as he was on loan last season and his wages would already be off the wage bill. As it turns out we paid him ~£8m to go away in the summer regardless.

 

So basically that is a really rough guess that 170k a week in wages was free'd up and we are allowed further growth of 80k a week - giving us a wage budget of 250k a week to fill (if we wanted).

 

It is quite normal for many players to have wage increases built into their contract - especially young players and new signings on long term deals. It is another complete guess but lets say 50k of that 200k budget is eaten up by commitments made to existing players. That leaves 200k.

 

From that 200k you can see quite quickly how that would be eaten up by the following:

 

Loan cover for Forster (Steklenburg - maybe 40k a week)

Loan cover for Gardos (Culker - maybe 30k a week)

VvD - 50k a week

Clasie - 40k a week

Cedric - 30k a week

Romeu - 30k a week

Juanmi - 30k a week

 

That's 250k a week estimated right there leaving me well over my estimated budget of 200k a week. So I really do believe the club has spent all it can under the rules - you can debate whether or not it was done wisely but we haven't stood still.

 

Onto this summer - we get another 80k a week to play with, Ramirez will leave (50k a week?), Stek and Culker will leave (70k a week) PLUS we get those nice new sponsorship deals (new short sponsor, new kit manufacturer, and anything else) which if they are average will give us another 80k a week to spend on wages. So that could be 280k a week to spend and that is completely independent of departures. Now the rest of the league will have more money as well of course, but they won't all have the scope we will to increase their wage bill. And that is where we can make good gains as a team and as a squad.

[Whitey Grandad]

We were a little handicap with what we could do in the summer (though I maintain the signings of Juanmi and Romeu were not great). FFP rules state that we can only increase the wage bill £4m a season plus anything we gain from new commercial deals. We know our commercial revenue is awful and that is being worked on (and that is why this summer is huge for us) so basically in the summer we could only increase our wage bill by a net increase of £80k a week.

 

So if I were to just guess:

 

Out

Schneiderlin- 40k a week

Clyne - 30k a week

Hooiveld - 20k a week

Mayuka - 30k a week

Alderweireld - 50k a week (even though he was on loan we paid his wages and they would have counted towards our cap for last season)

 

Elia and Djurcic I am not sure about - I've left them out for now.

 

I have not included Osvaldo as he was on loan last season and his wages would already be off the wage bill. As it turns out we paid him ~£8m to go away in the summer regardless.

 

So basically that is a really rough guess that 170k a week in wages was free'd up and we are allowed further growth of 80k a week - giving us a wage budget of 250k a week to fill (if we wanted).

 

It is quite normal for many players to have wage increases built into their contract - especially young players and new signings on long term deals. It is another complete guess but lets say 50k of that 200k budget is eaten up by commitments made to existing players. That leaves 200k.

 

From that 200k you can see quite quickly how that would be eaten up by the following:

 

Loan cover for Forster (Steklenburg - maybe 40k a week)

Loan cover for Gardos (Culker - maybe 30k a week)

VvD - 50k a week

Clasie - 40k a week

Cedric - 30k a week

Romeu - 30k a week

Juanmi - 30k a week

 

That's 250k a week estimated right there leaving me well over my estimated budget of 200k a week. So I really do believe the club has spent all it can under the rules - you can debate whether or not it was done wisely but we haven't stood still.

 

Onto this summer - we get another 80k a week to play with, Ramirez will leave (50k a week?), Stek and Culker will leave (70k a week) PLUS we get those nice new sponsorship deals (new short sponsor, new kit manufacturer, and anything else) which if they are average will give us another 80k a week to spend on wages. So that could be 280k a week to spend and that is completely independent of departures. Now the rest of the league will have more money as well of course, but they won't all have the scope we will to increase their wage bill. And that is where we can make good gains as a team and as a squad.

 

There was an interesting comment from Martin Samuel in The Mail a few days ago:

 

'Southampton were victims of financial fair play — the owners thought the rules would prevent them supplementing a strong existing squad, and sold instead. As a result, they could not sustain their challenge. Leicester have hit the front at a time when the new Premier League television deal, and the watered-down FFP regulations, give them more of a chance.'

 

Does anyone know what all this is about?

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3351799/Why-elite-clubs-like-Manchester-United-Liverpool-look-Chelsea-shudder-next.html

[Chez]

FFP rules state that we can only increase the wage bill £4m a season plus anything we gain from new commercial deals.

really? So if we solid hundred of millions of pounds worth of players, we couldn't then sign lots of free transfers and use those millions to pay the higher wages?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

really? So if we solid hundred of millions of pounds worth of players, we couldn't then sign lots of free transfers and use those millions to pay the higher wages?

 

I don't believe so, unless transfer revenue is counted as commercial revenue, and I don't think it does. So basically if we sold a player earning £20k a week for £20m and his replacement cost £10m and has wages of £40k a week then that is 20k a week extra out of our wage budget we need to account for even though we have £10m in surplus cash spare.

[Dig Dig]

We won't keep hold of him. But it's not like he's scoring 20 a season and our only threat. We'd need more pace, a couple of wingers, or Rodriguez to come back stronger. But we did well before Mane and I'm sure we will afterwards too.

 

Before Mane we did well because of Lallana and Rodriguez. One we don't have any more and the other isn't likely to be back and contributing to the same level for some time if at all. Ultimately it will come down to how well we replace but essentially we'll always need high quality attackers in order to be a good side. Replacing something like Mane with a "couple of wingers" wouldn't really suffice IMO.

[Shance]

really? So if we solid hundred of millions of pounds worth of players, we couldn't then sign lots of free transfers and use those millions to pay the higher wages?

 

Nope, but I'm pretty sure that FFP has been relaxed somewhat so not sure where we stand now. We did get a bit ****ed over by FFP, as did a number of other smaller clubs. It really was a flawed idea of absolute bellendary.

[The9]

The board need to wake up.

 

They flogged a lot of best players over the past 2 years and brought in cheap replacements that do not enhance the quality of the first team, and arguably have not really increased squad depth. Whilst banking the remaining cash.

 

Standing still in this business is a killer, and that is what we've done. LVG spent 260million since he took over and look how f**king crap Manyoo are still.

 

Where's the original thinking and attention to detail gone ? We seem to be resting on our laurels. No youngsters are coming through either.

 

Where's Cortese ?

 

You're right, they haven't signed anyone since the end of August. Sack the board, rabble rabble rabble.

[SW5 SAINT]

There was an interesting comment from Martin Samuel in The Mail a few days ago:

 

'Southampton were victims of financial fair play — the owners thought the rules would prevent them supplementing a strong existing squad, and sold instead. As a result, they could not sustain their challenge. Leicester have hit the front at a time when the new Premier League television deal, and the watered-down FFP regulations, give them more of a chance.'

 

Does anyone know what all this is about?

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3351799/Why-elite-clubs-like-Manchester-United-Liverpool-look-Chelsea-shudder-next.html

 

I think he means we had our chance to progress to the next level and blew it............

[Whitey Grandad]

I think he means we had our chance to progress to the next level and blew it............

 

True, but I was wondering about the relaxation in the FFP rules.

[DuncanRG]

This season is likely to be be the first time in 5 years we don't improve our league position year on year. Frankly, we're due a bit of standing still.

[SW5 SAINT]

True, but I was wondering about the relaxation in the FFP rules.

 

I'm not quite sure on this one either. Man City don't seem to be worrying too much these days how much they spend. I always thought the FFP rules amounted to a restraint of trade, i.e investing in your own business to take it forward!

[ScepticalStan]

How many teams could you take 5 of the best players from and not find yourself in a relegation battle?

 

We wouldn't get relegated losing 3 of them anyway. Wanyama hasn't been great, Romeu, Clasie can replace. Mane would be a major loss but we could change the way we play.

 

Think you're vastly underestimating just how awful the bottom 3 or 4 teams are.

 

In fairness I did say take 3 out of 5, rather than all five. Plus I made the point that you could say that about an awful lot of teams.

 

You may have a point re. how crap the bottom three are though. That's the main bone of contention when I get into this debate with one of the lads I go to SMS with.

 

However, whilst I don't think for a second we're in real danger of relegation, I am very ****ing grateful for every point that we've managed to get on the board so far.

[VectisSaint]

This season is likely to be be the first time in 5 years we don't improve our league position year on year. Frankly, we're due a bit of standing still.

Standing still would mean we finish 7th. Do you think we will achieve that?

[Whitey Grandad]

In fairness I did say take 3 out of 5, rather than all five. Plus I made the point that you could say that about an awful lot of teams.

 

You may have a point re. how crap the bottom three are though. That's the main bone of contention when I get into this debate with one of the lads I go to SMS with.

 

However, whilst I don't think for a second we're in real danger of relegation, I am very ****ing grateful for every point that we've managed to get on the board so far.

 

That's how seasons go, good runs, bad runs, indifferent results, unexpected wins, unexpected losses. We're not halfway yet, but I don't expect us to do as well as last season.

[Dalek2003]

I would be happy if we were 'standing still', because in my opinion we are in fact 'sliding backwards' to the relegation zone.

[notnowcato]

I like these threads... generally good times are just around the corner