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Stood still for too long


alpine_saint

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The board need to wake up.

 

They flogged a lot of best players over the past 2 years and brought in cheap replacements that do not enhance the quality of the first team, and arguably have not really increased squad depth. Whilst banking the remaining cash.

 

Standing still in this business is a killer, and that is what we've done. LVG spent 260million since he took over and look how f**king crap Manyoo are still.

 

Where's the original thinking and attention to detail gone ? We seem to be resting on our laurels. No youngsters are coming through either.

 

Where's Cortese ?

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The board need to wake up.

 

They flogged a lot of best players over the past 2 years and brought in cheap replacements that do not enhance the quality of the first team, and arguably have not really increased squad depth. Whilst banking the remaining cash.

 

Standing still in this business is a killer, and that is what we've done. LVG spent 260million since he took over and look how f**king crap Manyoo are still.

 

Where's the original thinking and attention to detail gone ? We seem to be resting on our laurels. No youngsters are coming through either.

 

Where's Cortese ?

 

I agree. Unless we spend over £260m this January, we are ****ed.

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To clarify, I am saying we are standing still and the innovation seems to have gone. I am not saying throwing money at everything is the solution (hence my LVG comment).

 

We seem to be happy to sit back and cash in after a decent run of results and individual performances. Youngsters are not coming through, and none of this summers acquisitions are in the same league as Mane in terms of finds. Replacing Toby with VVD seems to have been the high point.

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To clarify, I am saying we are standing still and the innovation seems to have gone. I am not saying throwing money at everything is the solution (hence my LVG comment).

 

We seem to be happy to sit back and cash in after a decent run of results and individual performances. Youngsters are not coming through, and none of this summers acquisitions are in the same league as Mane in terms of finds. Replacing Toby with VVD seems to have been the high point.

 

I'm fine with that, save for the youngsters not coming through - but if they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough. What do you actually think we are? Some big Champions League contender? You need to be more realistic/pragmatic and surely you understand that the Premier League is a very poor competition, like all of football really. It is all skewed in favour of a small number of clubs, although in the PL that number is higher than in other leagues. People laugh at the SPL, and when Rangers were there, that it was a 2 horse race, but really the PL is exactly the same, just with a couple more horses in the race. Spain a 2 horse race (with the odd interloper which is going to get rarer and rarer). Germany, Italy and France are the same.

 

So the club tries and operates within it's means. What a shock. The owner doesn't want to bankroll it to the tune of hundreds of millions even if FFP allowed it. She actually seems to be trying to run the company like a company should be. FFP dealt us a poor hand, and we could not entice players to stay by offering them higher wages, even if we/they wanted to. But now all of a sudden, well actually after the Italians started whinging, FFP seems to not be so restrictive but the damage has been done. Anyway, there are those clubs that are play things for rich Arabs/Russians/Chinese/Americans/etc and there are clubs that aren't. We are one of those that isn't. One of the big differences is the world wide appeal and following. We don't have it. We'll likely never have it. If we played in Sydney, do you think that the SCG would fill out with 100k Saints supporters like it did when Liverpool went there?

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This will end well.

 

Although agree difference between this season and last is we haven't adequately replaced Clyne and Schneiderlin whereas last season the replacements for Shaw, Lovren, Lallana and Lambert did well.

 

Thats a fair comment.

 

We won't spend in Jan though & arguably whats the point in doing so?

Edited by Saint Charlie
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I think we have done very well over the last couple of years, done to RK and his team and yes, we have bought well in places. But this season i think Clyne and Morgan's replacements have not been anywhere near their quality.

Selling our best players year after year will catch up with us eventually, however, how do you keep players that want to go for more cash and CL football?

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Well RK said no one will be leaving in January that doesen't mean no one is coming in.Our options are limited and as Alps says we appear to be standing still.Something is missing from our ambitions as a Club and I can't put my finger on it.Throwing millions on mediocre journeymen won't solve the problem.We had our hopes raised when Gallagher,Reed and Targett made their way to the first team and now they are not in the frame.I'm not pessimistic though.We are only two points off sixth place and still in with a chance if we can get our act together.Beat Palace on Saturday and everything will be rosy again eh?

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I think we're standing still because we have pretty much reached our level. We area mid table to upper mid table club. We aren't big enough to keep the top players, but we're big enough to attract some decent prospects. The teams who will be consistently above us are bigger names with bigger fanbases, like Spurs. I hear a lot of people talking about "the next level" and I don't get it. The next level means unsustainable spending for a club of our size. Is that really what any of us want?

 

What we're doing at the moment, that's pretty good. There will be times we reach up towards Europa, there will be times we drop into lower mid table. There will be decent cup runs and there will be cup disappointments. We aren't top six size, smaller clubs grab top eight places sometimes and sometimes that'll be us, but probably not every season. We will get great players, but they'll leave if they get too good and their replacements might not always be as good, same as every club.

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The sort of "innovation" "attention to detail" and "standing still for too long"

 

Was it the innovation that was going on here?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50319-Adrift-on-brown-stuff-creek-without-a-paddle

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54157-Our-On-the-Beach-mentality-is-a-f**king-disgrace

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?43548-MPs-quot-pushing-up-quot-tactics-are-they-easy-to-counter

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?37211-We-dont-quot-do-quot-the-big-occasion

 

The standing still we were showing here was it like when it was an "intolerable situation", settling for the play offs, chocking in the championship or going down as we don't belong in the premier league?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54565-Between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?49711-Genuinely-worried-about-next-season

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?49096-A-season-that-held-so-much-promise

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?41043-We-dont-belong-in-the-PL

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?44802-We-re-going-down

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?34235-Championship-Chokers

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?29036-Let-s-settle-for-the-playoffs

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure why you're wonder where Cortese is it was just as bad under him, crappy B&B wasn't it?

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?46964-For-future-transfer-activity-lets-avoid-Serie-A

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?23072-Different-Ownership-and-Managment-same-old-summer

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?45266-SFC-still-run-like-a-crappy-seaside-B-amp-B

 

And as for Man United budget, well we should have given up anyway shouldn't we??

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50540-220M-transfer-fund-reported-for-van-Gaal

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Ah, we still do the "mob" posts, where someone tries to make someone else look stupid through previous comments ? How sad..

 

Well, putting the last two stupid posts aside, and for those who want a sensible discussion, I actually think the back-room team is not as creative and energetic as in the past couple of seasons. From here, it feels like the "buzz" has gone.

Edited by alpine_saint
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We obviously couldn't replace Morgan or Clyne with equality as they were the best the top clubs wanted and we just couldn't keep. I also think that the youngsters are good but not good enough for the first team, look at the stick JWP is getting and Matt Targett got, the fans are demanding better quality to what is available. Still only a couple of points off top 6. I agree that we are at our level and it's great when we punch above it.

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I think we're standing still because we have pretty much reached our level. We area mid table to upper mid table club. We aren't big enough to keep the top players, but we're big enough to attract some decent prospects. The teams who will be consistently above us are bigger names with bigger fanbases, like Spurs. I hear a lot of people talking about "the next level" and I don't get it. The next level means unsustainable spending for a club of our size. Is that really what any of us want?

 

What we're doing at the moment, that's pretty good. There will be times we reach up towards Europa, there will be times we drop into lower mid table. There will be decent cup runs and there will be cup disappointments. We aren't top six size, smaller clubs grab top eight places sometimes and sometimes that'll be us, but probably not every season. We will get great players, but they'll leave if they get too good and their replacements might not always be as good, same as every club.

 

Very well put, this is exactly who we are and where we are as a club. Unless we ever have investment on a Man City/Chelsea level, then we should be delighted to fight to be the best of the rest (6th, 7th, 8th...)

Sadly in the modern (Champions League) era of football, the chasm is just too big between them and us (and even Liverpool/Spurs). Gone are the days of a Norwich, Saints or Villa challenging for the title (before you say it, I know Leicester are ruining my point right now - but the vultures are circling already around Vardy & Mahrez!)

Le Tissier made a point in his book that when we was on about £4,600 a week with Saints, he was getting offers of around £4,800 or £5,000 a week to move to Spurs/Chelsea, and that the gulf wasn't so big then in wage offers, so it was easy to turn down, and he openly admits that in the modern game he probably would have left. He would probably be being paid around £30-40k a week at Saints nowadays, but Man Utd could just come along and offer £150k a week.... a la Luke Shaw.

Its always going to be that way now (unless we buck the trend one year and reach the CL or get huge investment), so finding those rough gems to polish each Jan/Summer is our best way to sustain a top half finish each year I feel (Mane, JRod, Clyne, etc) and we have done that very well over the last 5 years, better than 'the rest'.

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Ah, we still do the "mob" posts, where someone tries to make someone else look stupid through previous comments ? How sad..

 

Well, putting the last two stupid posts aside, and for those who want a sensible discussion, I actually think the back-room team is not as creative and energetic as in the past couple of seasons. From here, it feels like the "buzz" has gone.

 

You shouldn't stand still for too long Alps as you might get DVT in your little fat legs.

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Agreed - unless we sign Lewandowski, Neymar, Veratti, De Gea, Alaba, Pogba & Griezmann and get Guardiola in the summer - it's all over.

 

When will the board wake up?!?!

I understand the sarcasm but how about the novel idea of keeping the stars you have already. Yes they may be unhappy and want to win medals, but by showing determination by keeping the better players may breed a winning team whilst showing them that if they stay, we could build, they could win things at SMS. At present with the current mentality who can ever see us winning a trophy?

The only time in my 50 years of devoting my time to supporting Saints there has only been a 3 season run, where I felt we could win trophies. That was in the early 80's under Lawrie Mcmenemy, when we were competing against top clubs and getting world class players in. Quality and experienced internationals.

 

Everton have the 'Project' that i feel is best for me as a supporter

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I think we're standing still because we have pretty much reached our level. We area mid table to upper mid table club. We aren't big enough to keep the top players, but we're big enough to attract some decent prospects. The teams who will be consistently above us are bigger names with bigger fanbases, like Spurs. I hear a lot of people talking about "the next level" and I don't get it. The next level means unsustainable spending for a club of our size. Is that really what any of us want?

 

What we're doing at the moment, that's pretty good. There will be times we reach up towards Europa, there will be times we drop into lower mid table. There will be decent cup runs and there will be cup disappointments. We aren't top six size, smaller clubs grab top eight places sometimes and sometimes that'll be us, but probably not every season. We will get great players, but they'll leave if they get too good and their replacements might not always be as good, same as every club.

 

 

I'll go with this.

 

The idea we would just continue to improve season upon season is pretty ridiculous. There are a whole load of teams in the PL similar to us, outside the big six, full of good players. In the end it's all about which of those teams players hit the best form each season. It's been us the last couple of seasons but it isn't going to be us every season. Swansea are a good example of what happens when your players lose form and confidence.

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Ah, we still do the "mob" posts, where someone tries to make someone else look stupid through previous comments ? How sad..

 

Well, putting the last two stupid posts aside, and for those who want a sensible discussion, I actually think the back-room team is not as creative and energetic as in the past couple of seasons. From here, it feels like the "buzz" has gone.

 

Oh no you make yourself look stupid so easily yourself my tubby little friend.

 

Credit where it's due though the troll from Tyrol still gets bites a plenty

 

Don't worry though pal a kings sized mars bar with a red bull chaser will soon have your buzz back.

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I understand the sarcasm but how about the novel idea of keeping the stars you have already. Yes they may be unhappy and want to win medals, but by showing determination by keeping the better players may breed a winning team whilst showing them that if they stay, we could build, they could win things at SMS. At present with the current mentality who can ever see us winning a trophy?

The only time in my 50 years of devoting my time to supporting Saints there has only been a 3 season run, where I felt we could win trophies. That was in the early 80's under Lawrie Mcmenemy, when we were competing against top clubs and getting world class players in. Quality and experienced internationals.

 

Everton have the 'Project' that i feel is best for me as a supporter

 

Are you aware that last season we ended 13 points above Everton and right now during our bad run we are 1 point behind them ?

Personally I reckon that we've made much more progress than them in recent seasons and don't believe that their model is superior to ours !

IMHO of course !

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I understand the sarcasm but how about the novel idea of keeping the stars you have already. Yes they may be unhappy and want to win medals, but by showing determination by keeping the better players may breed a winning team whilst showing them that if they stay, we could build, they could win things at SMS. At present with the current mentality who can ever see us winning a trophy?

The only time in my 50 years of devoting my time to supporting Saints there has only been a 3 season run, where I felt we could win trophies. That was in the early 80's under Lawrie Mcmenemy, when we were competing against top clubs and getting world class players in. Quality and experienced internationals.

 

Everton have the 'Project' that i feel is best for me as a supporter

 

Top post.

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I'll go with this.

 

The idea we would just continue to improve season upon season is pretty ridiculous. There are a whole load of teams in the PL similar to us, outside the big six, full of good players. In the end it's all about which of those teams players hit the best form each season. It's been us the last couple of seasons but it isn't going to be us every season. Swansea are a good example of what happens when your players lose form and confidence.

 

What do you mean by improve? Clearly it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible to improve on our position each season; but that's somewhat missing the point. The issue is whether the team and squad have improved; and, if not, whether they've improved as much as they could within our constraints. That gives us the best chance to improve in terms of outcome, full well knowing that might not happen for some of the reasons you suggest (though to reduce things to form alone is simplistic) and that's perfectly fine.

Edited by shurlock
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Doesnt the original post which says "Man Utd have spent 260 million and they are still crap" simply underline that spending lots of money doesnt always work ?

 

Just asking !

 

Well it actually says LvG has spent 260 million but the point is the same.

We must have spent almost half of that sum since Pochettino left I think so the point isn't particulary valid.

At the end of the day what you need to do well in the PL is a couple of prolific strikers and someone to supply them, the rest

isn't particularly important because it's about the same throughout the league.

Chelsea are the golden example of this, Costa and Hazard aren't scoring and Fabregas isn't setting them up, the rest of their side is roughly identical to that that took the PL by storm last year.

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Well it actually says LvG has spent 260 million but the point is the same.

We must have spent almost half of that sum since Pochettino left I think so the point isn't particulary valid.

At the end of the day what you need to do well in the PL is a couple of prolific strikers and someone to supply them, the rest

isn't particularly important because it's about the same throughout the league.

Chelsea are the golden example of this, Costa and Hazard aren't scoring and Fabregas isn't setting them up, the rest of their side is roughly identical to that that took the PL by storm last year.

 

Not completely. Chelsea's defense is also ageing and each year that goes by, the chances of it finally catching up with them only increases.

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What do you mean by improve? Clearly it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible to improve on our position each season; but that's somewhat missing the point. The issue is whether the team and squad have improved; and, if not, whether they've improved as much as they could within our constraints. That gives us the best chance to improve in terms of outcome, full well knowing that might not happen for some of the reasons you suggest (though to reduce things to form alone is simplistic) and that's perfectly fine.

 

 

I meant improve in terms of league position which seems to be most peoples barometer for improvement on this forum.

Edited by doddisalegend
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Are you aware that last season we ended 13 points above Everton and right now during our bad run we are 1 point behind them ?

Personally I reckon that we've made much more progress than them in recent seasons and don't believe that their model is superior to ours !

IMHO of course !

 

I'm with you on this.

Not only that but the force behind their renewed vigor this season cost 20+m and is apparently in line for a departure very shortly

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Ah, we still do the "mob" posts, where someone tries to make someone else look stupid through previous comments ? How sad..

 

Well, putting the last two stupid posts aside, and for those who want a sensible discussion, I actually think the back-room team is not as creative and energetic as in the past couple of seasons. From here, it feels like the "buzz" has gone.

 

I think its you that makes yourself look stupid.

 

Calm down and have a Double Decker.

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Oh no you make yourself look stupid so easily yourself my tubby little friend.

 

Credit where it's due though the troll from Tyrol still gets bites a plenty

 

Don't worry though pal a kings sized mars bar with a red bull chaser will soon have your buzz back.

I think posts like this to try belittle and degrade the poster does you no credit Turkish.

Iam sure you are a fine specimen of a human being with no flaws or human failings.

 

Alpine is a fellow poster and Saints fan and whilst is on the edge of opinion does not deserve to be treated in this way.

His is an opinion and no worse than all of ours on here.

This forum has been degrading for sometime now and attacks/abuse is one of the reasons I feel many dont bother anymore

 

I only have 3 posts and i think this is my last for the day and so fill your boots.'in Les we trust' lol

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The board need to wake up.

 

They flogged a lot of best players over the past 2 years and brought in cheap replacements that do not enhance the quality of the first team, and arguably have not really increased squad depth. Whilst banking the remaining cash.

 

Standing still in this business is a killer, and that is what we've done. LVG spent 260million since he took over and look how f**king crap Manyoo are still.

 

Where's the original thinking and attention to detail gone ? We seem to be resting on our laurels. No youngsters are coming through either.

 

Where's Cortese ?

 

The only thing i disagree with Alpine is that we have increased squad depth.

 

However, our first team is weaker than last year and we only have Fonte, Wanyama, Davis, Yoshi and JWP from 2 years ago who are really around the first team - as a result we have lot a lot of cohesion.

 

That said, fans need to look at this as us building a new team. The old one took us a long way, but we sold it to maximise profits and we are currently building a new one. I agree that we need perhaps 2 quality players atm, One more CB and a very solid and dedicated box to box midfielder / CDM...

 

Achieving that would push us back into Europe. Failure to achieve that means this year is a rebuilding year and we will look to push on again after the summer.

 

My biggest two regrets is that the board's policy have stripped the club of any true fan heroes and that we have stopped bedding the kids as much this season, but the again, it is those under 18 that are viewed as the true prospects.

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Aside from the tyrolling nature of the post I think you do the club an injustice regarding recruitment...Mane, Bertrand, VVD, Wanyama, Tadic, Pelle have all proved to be excellent buys. The jury is still out on Cedric, Romeu and Juanmi and the regular knives are out for JWP and Targett. Many clubs who have similar budgets to ourselves would drool over the quality and potential amongst those. No lack of effort or technique in recruiting or developing there then.

 

It's often said that we are punching above our weight and that will always be the case whilst the FFP rules are in place, it's effect (whether intended or not) is to maintain the status quo by allowing those who have spent and can spend to continue to do so while capping clubs like ours.

 

We're currently mid-table and having a dip in our results of the type that happens to all clubs during the season - it's football but I think our board and backroom staff remain focused on where we are going and how to achieve it without living beyond our means...take a look at the evil-smelling end of the M27 for an example of what doing that brings!

 

On the youth and Academy side - I saw an absolutely awful U21 performance the other night but on the flip side I've been lucky enough to see both U18 and U21 sides a few times this year and have been as impressed as I was unimpressed at the Norwich match..it's the nature of development squads to experiment and to lack consistency but the encouraging thing was that they play football like the first team...it's a philosophy that's good to see and can't fail to bring youngsters through when they're ready and it's the italicised phrase that fans seem to have problems with - it happens at different speeds!

 

Finally...the buzz appears to have gone from where you (Alpine) are...I think that may be the problem. Get over and see some games, we may have got over our blip and you'll understand that things feel better amongst (as in within the crowds) where it happens.

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I agree we've stood still for too long, would show a lack of ambition if we don't sign anyone in January. Although a lack of ambition was shown in the summer.

 

Ambition for what? We will finish midtable regardless. I'd expect to be more prudent and wait until the summer, at which point I expect 7 or 8 to leave and I'd want 7 or 8 to come in

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Take the p*ss all you want, but that guy had a vision and an idea about how to achieve it.

 

I am not taking the p*ss Alps but the guy jumped ship a long time ago and we had our best season without him last year. I agree things have stalled recently. I still think we have yet to see the best of this squad so am not unduly pessimistic despite the poor recent results. Like others I would like to see a couple in in January but am not holding my breath.

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I understand the sarcasm but how about the novel idea of keeping the stars you have already. Yes they may be unhappy and want to win medals, but by showing determination by keeping the better players may breed a winning team whilst showing them that if they stay, we could build, they could win things at SMS. At present with the current mentality who can ever see us winning a trophy?

The only time in my 50 years of devoting my time to supporting Saints there has only been a 3 season run, where I felt we could win trophies. That was in the early 80's under Lawrie Mcmenemy, when we were competing against top clubs and getting world class players in. Quality and experienced internationals.

 

Everton have the 'Project' that i feel is best for me as a supporter

 

look how well its worked out for WBA with Berhainho.

 

Everton won't win anything and will be selling stones and barkley in the summer. Money goes up, **** goes down - it's like the mafia really.

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Typically when our prospects for improvement in this division are debated, the usual guff is trotted out that we cannot hope to break into the top four, because that is the exclusive preserve of four or five glory clubs, whose Worldwide reputation attracts massive fan support and sponsorship, the wealthiest owners and some of the best players in the World. How can we possibly compete against those advantages?

 

Well, how can Leicester manage to be the top club in the league at the moment, whilst simultaneously the former Champions with the supposed best manager, languish in the bottom half of the table? Now it might be that Chelsea have a storming second half of the season and haul themselves up into the top 5 and that Leicester suffer the fate of many other medium sized clubs who fade away into mid-table obscurity. But if Leicester finish in the top four, that will mean that it is possible to do so with players who cost no more than the ones we have bought, but also that a manager like Ranieri can make a substantial difference to a club's chances.

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