4-3-3

[Wiggles31]

Beginning to find the 4-3-3 formation frustrating at home. Mane is left out wide which for me is not his best position. Teams that defend/counter make it difficult for the midfield 3 to find the front 3 especially when have teams putting 5-6 bodies in the centre. This then leads to the frustrating and often aimless passing amongst the back 4. It also suits teams that counter attack as they have much more space to operate in which we saw against Stoke.

 

Don't get me wrong it has worked for us on many occasions and we do change the system sometimes. At times this season our midfield has not offered/created chances for our front 3. Also think the front 3 are not always inter changing/dropping deep to create more space.

 

Just feel we don't use our plan B enough and want to see Mane in his central free role again. Thoughts?

Edited 6 December, 2015 by Wiggles31

[The9]

Thoughts remain that we don't play 4-3-3 and never have in the Premier League since we were promoted into it. Others will argue this.

[Wiggles31]

Against Villa there was definitely a front 3 with Tadic and Mane very much out wide. Davis JWP and Wanyama were centre and changing from dropping deep to collect the ball from the defence. I would argue we do use this system quite a lot.

 

I do think the front 3 when it is not quite going our way do not interchange, make runs and drop deep enough. Mane to a degree does but Pelle and Tadic don't. Anyway of getting heat maps from the Villa game for positions out of interest?

[Lord Duckhunter]

It's more a 4-2-3-1 than a 4-3-3 surely .

 

The issue for me is the lack of movement and switching around of positions as and when the play dictates . Under Poch Rickie would find himself out where Lallana plays or JRod would pop up down the middle . Tadic just stands out wide left or wide right like an old fashioned winger . Pelle ( apart from early on yesterday ) plays in straight lines and never works the channels , he never pulls off onto the full backs , like Rickie used to . I don't know if it's a macho thing but he seems to just want to stand up and battle the centre halves all day long . When , like The Liverpool pair he's getting nothing out of them , why not pull off onto the young nipper at full back . Stek's pretty accurate with his kicking and I'm sure the full back won't relish a battle with that big lump anymore than Lovren would relish Mane chasing pelles flick on . If you're a big ugly centre half we must be a dream to play against , as you can just stand in the middle of the back 4 and battle with Pelle . When do we ever shift centre halves into areas they're uncomfortable in?

[The9]

Against Villa there was definitely a front 3 with Tadic and Mane very much out wide. Davis JWP and Wanyama were centre and changing from dropping deep to collect the ball from the defence. I would argue we do use this system quite a lot.

 

I do think the front 3 when it is not quite going our way do not interchange, make runs and drop deep enough. Mane to a degree does but Pelle and Tadic don't. Anyway of getting heat maps from the Villa game for positions out of interest?

 

A narrow "three man midfield" where the middle 3 are not in line is not a "3", it's a different formation. 4-3-3 has wide midfielders and out and out wingers, not 3 CMs with at least one of them playing DM, which is what Saints use.

[Dig Dig]

A narrow "three man midfield" where the middle 3 are not in line is not a "3", it's a different formation. 4-3-3 has wide midfielders and out and out wingers, not 3 CMs with at least one of them playing DM, which is what Saints use.

 

You're starting to sound a little like Andy Durman with his 1-4-4-2 formations Every 433 I've seen absolutely has three CM's and not one CM and two wide players.

[The9]

You're starting to sound a little like Andy Durman with his 1-4-4-2 formations Every 433 I've seen absolutely has three CM's and not one CM and two wide players.

 

I suggest you watch a lot more 1970s football and stop trying to retrofit new formations to old categories then.

[Dig Dig]

I suggest you watch a lot more 1970s football and stop trying to retrofit new formations to old categories then.

 

I'm ok thanks, I'll stick to understanding the modern execution of 433 as that's what is relevant today.

[The9]

I'm ok thanks, I'll stick to understanding the modern execution of 433 as that's what is relevant today.

 

It isn't 4-3-3, as it's a different system to the thing which definitely is 4-3-3. That's about as good a reason for not incorrectly using the name of something which isn't the same as I can think of. You might as well call it a hoverboard.

[saintdean]

It isn't 4-3-3, as it's a different system to the thing which definitely is 4-3-3. That's about as good a reason for not incorrectly using the name of something which isn't the same as I can think of. You might as well call it a hoverboard.

I'm intrigued to what formation you think we play? Especially on Saturday.

[Window Cleaner]

It isn't 4-3-3, as it's a different system to the thing which definitely is 4-3-3. That's about as good a reason for not incorrectly using the name of something which isn't the same as I can think of. You might as well call it a hoverboard.

 

Now would that be a real hoverboard as seen in Back to the Future 2 or a hoverboard that doesn't really hover but runs on wheels.

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

Sometimes, at home, I wish we'd stick Tadic wide left, Mane wide right, two defensive centre mids & Pellè with Long (or Juanmi) up front & just have a f**king go. It's working for Leicester at the moment but I guess it doesn't fit in with the current 4-3-3 (or however it's dressed up) philosophy of the club. Me, as a pragmatist, I'd just do whatever best gets us a result.

[Dig Dig]

Sometimes' date=' at home, I wish we'd stick Tadic wide left, Mane wide right, two defensive centre mids & Pellè with Long (or Juanmi) up front & just have a f**king go. It's working for Leicester at the moment but I guess it doesn't fit in with the current 4-3-3 (or however it's dressed up) philosophy of the club. Me, as a pragmatist, I'd just do whatever best gets us a result.[/quote']

 

I'd quite like to see a 442 diamond at home. Width can be provided by the FB's as per usual but would give is a chance to get someone closer to Pelle.

 

-----------Stek--------------

Cedric Fonte VVD Bertrand

--------- Wanyama---------

JWP........................Davis

-----------Tadic-------------

------Mane----Pelle--------

 

Obviously personnel for midfield positions will be up for debate. You could also see how Juanmi and Long could fit in rather than being shoved out wide.

[SaintTex]

how about a 4-1-2-3?

 

-----------Stek--------------

Cedric Fonte VVD Bertrand

--------- Wanyama---------

--Davis/JWP.....Clasie-----

Mane------Pelle------Tadic

 

01) Cedric and Bertrand can still make runs.

02) Allow Wanyama to bruise..

03) leave the technical central MFing to Davis/JWP and Clasie

04) Davis/JWP and Clasie can hang back for defensive cover when LB or RB make their overlaps.

05) Tadic is best on the left

06) Mane still on the right, but with this line up it allows Mane to drift more centrally behind Pelle when Davis/JWP and Cedric are occupying the right side on an attack.

07) Keeps Pelle central and unpaired, which seems to be the preference.

08) puts JWP out more wide on the left for crosses

 

I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

[Shance]

We play 4231. Our problem is the 2. Wanyama just can't be ****ed anymore and that puts too much pressure on his partner.

[Saint Charlie]

We play 4231. Our problem is the 2. Wanyama just can't be ****ed anymore and that puts too much pressure on his partner.

I think the issue is Mane would be best in the central position of the three, but we seem reluctant to play him there as we might get overrun.

 

Look at who other teams have in that position, and their goal/assist output versus Davis & JWP.

 

Also Pelle isn't going to run in behind ever, so its only Mane that does that.

[The9]

Now would that be a real hoverboard as seen in Back to the Future 2 or a hoverboard that doesn't really hover but runs on wheels.

 

That was indeed my point.

[The9]

I'm intrigued to what formation you think we play? Especially on Saturday.

 

No idea what formation Saints played on Saturday, I was watching Barnet lose to Newport County in the 2nd Round of the FA Cup with our 2 STs in my pocket because no-one wanted them.

[The9]

We play 4231. Our problem is the 2. Wanyama just can't be ****ed anymore and that puts too much pressure on his partner.

 

That's pretty much what I decided after watching Liverpool, interested to know how Romeu did in the middle without him (irrespective of him scoring, which is likely to be a fairly insignificant part of his role in the team).

[derry]

That's pretty much what I decided after watching Liverpool, interested to know how Romeu did in the middle without him (irrespective of him scoring, which is likely to be a fairly insignificant part of his role in the team).

 

He looked like a holding midfielder should. Held his position in front of the centre backs and didn't wander looked much more effective than any two this year wandering and leaving a gap. I think we could afford to play romeu as a single holding player with maybe Wanyama and Clasie in the middle with a mobile three in front, three from Mane, Pelle, Long, Juanme and Tadic..

[The9]

He looked like a holding midfielder should. Held his position in front of the centre backs and didn't wander looked much more effective than any two this year wandering and leaving a gap. I think we could afford to play romeu as a single holding player with maybe Wanyama and Clasie in the middle with a mobile three in front, three from Mane, Pelle, Long, Juanme and Tadic..

 

Not sure why anyone would want to use Wanyama further forward, the less defending he does the more his weaknesses are exposed. Romeu and Clasie might work, but it'll depend on the opposition to some extent.

[Shance]

He looked like a holding midfielder should. Held his position in front of the centre backs and didn't wander looked much more effective than any two this year wandering and leaving a gap. I think we could afford to play romeu as a single holding player with maybe Wanyama and Clasie in the middle with a mobile three in front, three from Mane, Pelle, Long, Juanme and Tadic..

 

One DM can work but you usually need a workhorse or two in front of him. Arsenal do it but they have Cazorla (who's a fantastic player) in front with someone else like Ramsey. They cover so much ground between them. Coquelin just sits in front of the back four and intercepts what he can. You need a highly drilled pressing front unit to pull it off which Arsenal have. IMO we'd get battered if we tried that atm.