Lack of movement

[verlaine1979]

We've haven't been an especially potent attacking team for a couple of years now, but we definitely seem to be getting more set in our ways as this season progresses. Most spells of possession either end with a long pass looking for Pelle, or a slow shuffling of the ball out wide looking for an overlapping fullback. Tadic occasionally swaps wings, and Davis does that thing everyone loves where he pops the ball five yard to someone with no appreciable chance of influencing the game, but aside from Mane our support around Pelle is static and disengaged.

 

Another problem is that no one apart from Mane has any desire (or possibly ability) to actually move with the ball, and his ability to create overloads and stretch play is generally limited by the fact that he generally receives possession in the final third. Both fullbacks will run, but only if there is an open channel, while Wanyama, Davis & whoever plays as third midfielder almost never risk going past their opponent. We've become slow and predictable, and recent contemptuous away performances by Stoke and Liverpool suggest that other teams have started to notice.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

It was the same this time last year and then we stepped it up a bit. Lets hope for the same reaction this time around.

[Window Cleaner]

It was the same this time last year and then we stepped it up a bit. Lets hope for the same reaction this time around.

 

Weren't we top 3 at this time last year ? Befor Frazer got injured and the rot set in.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Weren't we top 3 at this time last year ? Befor Frazer got injured and the rot set in.

 

This time last year we were third.

 

This time last year we lost 5 games in a row (4 in the league) before a team meeting was called and players agreed to run more for each other. Next game was a 3-0 win against Everton (on the 20th).

[shurlock]

It was the same this time last year and then we stepped it up a bit. Lets hope for the same reaction this time around.

 

Second half of last season, we were especially toothless - it's only thanks to our defence that we picked up points. With Koeman, I expect that any turnaround will start with and focus on not conceding silly goals. From a Koeman perspective, the space we give teams has to be as much of a worry as our lack of movement up top.

[Saint Charlie]

His comments seem to infocate you are right Shurlock. Looks like its back to being difficult to beat on Saturday.

[The9]

The biggest concern I had last night was the big empty hole where our defensive midfield was meant to be in a midfield 5 during the second half. I thought we were pretty decent in the first half - aside from the lack of resistance to the goals (which I accept is a fundamental flaw no matter what they're doing the rest of the time).

 

For a team whose success was built on defensive solidity, we seem very keen to move away from it by experimenting with something other than Wanyama/Romeu. I have some reservations that we are defensively strong enough against top 6 (maybe even top half) sides without that "back 6" concept - even though Romeu isn't a patch on Schneiderlin he is close defensively without offering such rapid and accurate passing to the forward positions - whilst Clasie and Ward-Prowse seem to offer the passing without the defending. As a result of not having a player of the quality of Schneiderlin doing both, Koeman has to make a judgement on the balance of the side in advance of every match, but recently he seems to be just hoping Clasie will work.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by The9

[Batman]

lack of movement starts at the front.

When pelle is up on his own (with mane wide) it hurts us many times

 

he just does not move.

[The9]

lack of movement starts at the front.

When pelle is up on his own (with mane wide) it hurts us many times

 

he just does not move.

 

You can say it as many times as you like, it's still not true.

[Batman]

You can say it as many times as you like, it's still not true.

 

it kind of is. Even displayed a heat map for you (which you dismissed). he sits in the middle of the final third. with occasional movements deep or wide

rarely wins a header

rarely defends from the front

rarely pulls defenders all over the place

unless the ball is put to him on a plate (mostly) he will just stand there.

 

 

he is a flat track bully who has the odd good game (like chelsea)

he will be fine at the weekend. But so he should be against what is a dreadful villa side

[The9]

it kind of is. Even displayed a heat map for you (which you dismissed). he sits in the middle of the final third. with occasional movements deep or wide

rarely wins a header

rarely defends from the front

rarely pulls defenders all over the place

unless the ball is put to him on a plate (mostly) he will just stand there.

 

 

he is a flat track bully who has the odd good game (like chelsea)

he will be fine at the weekend. But so he should be against what is a dreadful villa side

 

The heat map showed he was mobile across the entire final third. He's also regularly in midfield linking play - when asked to.

 

Hardly any lone striker would defend from the front, that's completely pointless even at County level as players just pass to the unmarked man and it's a complete waste of energy - so that's a tactical decision. We've already shared the stats about him winning a high percentage of headers compared to other strikers, and the bit about "just standing there" is so obviously not true, AND contradicts the heat map, it doesn't even make any sense. I'd also add that if we're planning on going long directly to his head which we do occasionally, "just standing there" is exactly what he's meant to be doing so the person passing to him knows where he is. However when we choose to go long to his feet you generally find he's just dropped 10 yards off the CB to collect the ball.

 

In summary, he runs plenty, he moves plenty, and when he's not moving it's because the tactics dictate he's not meant to be doing so.

[Batman]

The heat map showed he was mobile across the entire final third. He's also regularly in midfield linking play - when asked to.

 

Hardly any lone striker would defend from the front, that's completely pointless even at County level as players just pass to the unmarked man and it's a complete waste of energy - so that's a tactical decision. We've already shared the stats about him winning a high percentage of headers compared to other strikers, and the bit about "just standing there" is so obviously not true AND contradicts your theory about closing down it doesn't even make any sense. I'd also add that if we're planning on going long directly to his head which we do occasionally, "just standing there" is exactly what he's meant to be doing so the person passing to him knows where he is. However when we choose to go long to his feet you generally find he's just dropped 10 yards off the CB to collect the ball.

 

In summary, he runs plenty, he moves plenty, and when he's not moving it's because the tactics dictate he's not meant to be doing so.

Lets agree to disagree.

[The9]

Agreed.

 

In terms of "lack of movement" generally, I think it's as much about moving the ball quickly and not letting defenders get their shape as it is movement for the sake of it.

 

We play down the wings a lot and so get a lot of crosses in, but they're a low percentage pass generally, so we have a lot of attacks which don't end in a chance being created. That's not got much to do with movement unless there's no-one in the box at all, but the success of the cross will have a lot to do with how organised the defence is, which comes from whether they're already in the area facing up the pitch or if they're running towards their own goal trying to track a runner - it's far preferable to play the ball early if there's the opportunity just because the defence isn't set and is more likely to make poor decisions or mistakes. Same goes for through-balls from the hole, and of course transitions and broken play too.

 

So I'd say it's as much about moving the ball quickly (which is one of Steven Davis' main strengths) than it is moving the players. Anything which causes unpredictability and uncertainty in the defence provides an opportunity to create a goalscoring chance.

[vectraman]

Pelle, like all players, has his good games and his bad games.

The problem I feel is our obsession with not playing 442. Have someone play off him (Mane), so he has a strike partner to bring into play, lay it off to, flick it on to etc. Mane's pace would see him through defences onto flick ons easily. We just don't seem to want to try it. When it doesn't go right for him his head goes down, he becomes peripheral in the game, but we seem to struggle to have a plan 'B' when this happens (which it is regularly now). Against Stoke, their two centre backs bullied Pelle out of the game - because he was double tagged, and Stoke knew we would just keep going as we were.

When was the last time Pelle came off and we played Long and Mane as a front pair? Try something different. We have become predictable, constantly trying to get the ball out wide, crossing it in to (usually) nobody but a defender, normally the first one!

It doesn't always work, so try something different. Surely that concept is not too difficult to grasp is it?

We have too many sluggish defensive midfielders, and too little ability to place a killer pass. Tadic and Mane are it as far as creativity goes. Romeu/Wanyama/JWP/Davis/Clasie how many goals between them this season? 5 if we are lucky? Not enough goals, and not enough assists either. Leaves too much pressure on the rest of the side to make up the shortfall in quality.

Lack of pace doesn't help either. Mane aside, we have little. When was the last fast counter attack we had? All too slow and formulaic.

A pacey attacking midfielder would be a great addition, just to liven things up a bit.

 

My thoughts anyway!

[Saint Charlie]

If we had a better central midfield two we could play Mane behind Pelle like Bojan does for Stoke.

 

Problem is none of them apart from David cover enough ground and are overly mobile. Wanyama was fine with Schneiderlin because he was able to make the recovery runs, but its pretty ploddy in there now, which combines with attacking fullbacks is why we are so easy to counter attack.

[derry]

We've haven't been an especially potent attacking team for a couple of years now, but we definitely seem to be getting more set in our ways as this season progresses. Most spells of possession either end with a long pass looking for Pelle, or a slow shuffling of the ball out wide looking for an overlapping fullback. Tadic occasionally swaps wings, and Davis does that thing everyone loves where he pops the ball five yard to someone with no appreciable chance of influencing the game, but aside from Mane our support around Pelle is static and disengaged.

 

Another problem is that no one apart from Mane has any desire (or possibly ability) to actually move with the ball, and his ability to create overloads and stretch play is generally limited by the fact that he generally receives possession in the final third. Both fullbacks will run, but only if there is an open channel, while Wanyama, Davis & whoever plays as third midfielder almost never risk going past their opponent. We've become slow and predictable, and recent contemptuous away performances by Stoke and Liverpool suggest that other teams have started to notice.

 

I'm surprised you think the midfield is that good. I can think of a couple I'd like to see out of here.

[The9]

Pelle, like all players, has his good games and his bad games.

The problem I feel is our obsession with not playing 442. Have someone play off him (Mane), so he has a strike partner to bring into play, lay it off to, flick it on to etc. Mane's pace would see him through defences onto flick ons easily. We just don't seem to want to try it. When it doesn't go right for him his head goes down, he becomes peripheral in the game, but we seem to struggle to have a plan 'B' when this happens (which it is regularly now). Against Stoke, their two centre backs bullied Pelle out of the game - because he was double tagged, and Stoke knew we would just keep going as we were.

When was the last time Pelle came off and we played Long and Mane as a front pair? Try something different. We have become predictable, constantly trying to get the ball out wide, crossing it in to (usually) nobody but a defender, normally the first one!

It doesn't always work, so try something different. Surely that concept is not too difficult to grasp is it?

We have too many sluggish defensive midfielders, and too little ability to place a killer pass. Tadic and Mane are it as far as creativity goes. Romeu/Wanyama/JWP/Davis/Clasie how many goals between them this season? 5 if we are lucky? Not enough goals, and not enough assists either. Leaves too much pressure on the rest of the side to make up the shortfall in quality.

Lack of pace doesn't help either. Mane aside, we have little. When was the last fast counter attack we had? All too slow and formulaic.

A pacey attacking midfielder would be a great addition, just to liven things up a bit.

 

My thoughts anyway!

 

The problem with 4-4-2 is that 4-2-3-1 beats it all ends up - the 4 at the back cover the 2 up top just as they always have and if anything it's easier because CBs always have a man to mark, and the 4-4-2 midfield is overrun by the extra man in 4-2-3-1. The one up top in 4-2-3-1 isn't an issue because there is always at least one of the 3 AMs supporting - in fact 4-2-3-1 is basically just a 4-4-2 with split midfield to have permanent DMs and a slightly regressed support striker.

 

The front 2 were used without Pelle against MK - which doesn't really tell us much due to the level of the opposition, but I agree mixing that up could be beneficial on occasion - predictability is the enemy of creativity.

[verlaine1979]

I'm surprised you think the midfield is that good. I can think of a couple I'd like to see out of here.

 

Well, my negative opinion of one particular member of the midfield is pretty well known...

[derry]

Well, my negative opinion of one particular member of the midfield is pretty well known...

 

You mean the nearly man. Nearly pressed, nearly tackled, jogged around looking popular, few goals and not a lot else.

[Saint Charlie]

You mean the nearly man. Nearly pressed, nearly tackled, jogged around looking popular, few goals and not a lot else.

JWP hasn't scored a few goals but otherwise that is him (not Davis IMO).

[Window Cleaner]

JWP hasn't scored a few goals but otherwise that is him (not Davis IMO).

 

I think they mean Tadic actually....Neither of them are big fans of his IIRC.

[ENSKIED]

Syrup Of Figs?

[verlaine1979]

I think they mean Tadic actually....Neither of them are big fans of his IIRC.

 

Oh, I meant Davis. Tadic can be brilliant or rubbish, which I prefer to being mediocre or rubbish. Not that JWP has put in many performances that argue he should be ahead of SD. We just don't have any real attacking quality in central midfield.

[saintant]

We have stopped doing what all good footballing teams do and that is playing between the lines. To compound matters we then allow our opponents to do exactly that because our midfield is generally too far away from our back four and too immobile. Klopp spotted this and once Liverpool started to get players in between our lines we were in big trouble and the result was devastating. They simply cut though us like a knife through butter. Unfortunately Morgan helped by Victor formed a very effective shield in front of our back four and made it difficult for opponents to play between the lines. Now, with Morgan gone any opposition manager worth his salt will spot and expose this huge weakness.

[verlaine1979]

We have stopped doing what all good footballing teams do and that is playing between the lines. To compound matters we then allow our opponents to do exactly that because our midfield is generally too far away from our back four and too immobile. Klopp spotted this and once Liverpool started to get players in between our lines we were in big trouble and the result was devastating. They simply cut though us like a knife through butter. Unfortunately Morgan helped by Victor formed a very effective shield in front of our back four and made it difficult for opponents to play between the lines. Now, with Morgan gone any opposition manager worth his salt will spot and expose this huge weakness.

 

This is on the money - most of our play is in front of the opposition. Even out wide, Tadic and Mane are usually faced up against their fullbacks rather than played in behind (I think it was early first half against Liverpool that one of the commentators said something along the lines of 'look, Tadic does this every time, he goes outside, cuts back in, goes back out then crosses').

 

The problem is, playing between the lines usually requires someone to beat/evade their opposite number to open up the space between. We almost never do this - as an example, Davis has only attempted to 'take on' an opponent 6 times in 14 appearances (13 starts) according to Squawka, while JWP has only tried it 4 times. By way of comparison, even a distinctly average attacking midfielder like Shelvey has attempted to beat his man 23 times over the same period, while genuinely talented #10 like Payet is streets ahead with 45 attempts. You could argue that this makes us a slightly sturdier team that either of those two, but I'm not sure we're sturdy enough these days to make up for our lack of attacking threat.

[verlaine1979]

This is on the money - most of our play is in front of the opposition. Even out wide, Tadic and Mane are usually faced up against their fullbacks rather than played in behind (I think it was early first half against Liverpool that one of the commentators said something along the lines of 'look, Tadic does this every time, he goes outside, cuts back in, goes back out then crosses').

 

The problem is, playing between the lines usually requires someone to beat/evade their opposite number to open up the space between. We almost never do this - as an example, Davis has only attempted to 'take on' an opponent 6 times in 14 appearances (13 starts) according to Squawka, while JWP has only tried it 4 times. By way of comparison, even a distinctly average attacking midfielder like Shelvey has attempted to beat his man 23 times over the same period, while genuinely talented #10 like Payet is streets ahead with 45 attempts. You could argue that this makes us a slightly sturdier team that either of those two, but I'm not sure we're sturdy enough these days to make up for our lack of attacking threat.

 

Watching Dembele and Eriksen yesterday (and Kane and Lamela when they dropped deep) it was really apparent how many more players Spurs had who were willing and able to run with the ball past an opponent. Same with Watford just now. Perhaps it's just the case that after a few years of teams being caught out by pressing and pound-shop tiki taka, equilibrium has returned and once again you need match-winners if you want to win matches?

[derry]

Davis and JWP, keep the ball, pass it back or at best sideways and slow everything which allows opponents to condense into a ten man block with little space behind. We then pass it around and eventually lump it up towards Pelle with nobody hunting the breaking ball.

[Chez]

Davis and JWP, keep the ball, pass it back or at best sideways and slow everything which allows opponents to condense into a ten man block with little space behind. We then pass it around and eventually lump it up towards Pelle with nobody hunting the breaking ball.

 

That rings very true. If you we going to pass it around with little ambition, at least stick to that ploy rather than give up early and hoof it long. Get Cork back and we might start turning ball over again.

[derry]

We now turn the ball over regularly, yesterday Davis and Wanyama passing to the opposition in their half led to two goals. Graham Souness today slaughtered Swansea for 651 passes, 94% short, 89% accuracy and 2 shots on target and no goals. He said the great Liverpool teams believed in possession but were exhorted by the coaches to always have the aim of going forward.

[Trout-Tickler]

I don't have a problem with the ball being passed sideways so long as the player who passes sideways then moves forward to receive it. To often this season a player has passed sideways and just stood there like a statue. Pass and then move into space, that's how you get into space and break through the oppositions lines. All IMO of course...

[sandwichsaint]

Watching Dembele and Eriksen yesterday (and Kane and Lamela when they dropped deep) it was really apparent how many more players Spurs had who were willing and able to run with the ball past an opponent. Same with Watford just now. Perhaps it's just the case that after a few years of teams being caught out by pressing and pound-shop tiki taka, equilibrium has returned and once again you need match-winners if you want to win matches?

 

You've just made my weekend!

[derry]

I don't have a problem with the ball being passed sideways so long as the player who passes sideways then moves forward to receive it. To often this season a player has passed sideways and just stood there like a statue. Pass and then move into space, that's how you get into space and break through the oppositions lines. All IMO of course...

 

Players go on runs at the front and up the sides but they are ignored and the ball goes sideways and backwards so the runs stop, where we are, Clasie looks like a forward passer, Romeu gets it but the others need clearing out.

[sandwichsaint]

Players go on runs at the front and up the sides but they are ignored and the ball goes sideways and backwards so the runs stop, where we are, Clasie looks like a forward passer, Romeu gets it but the others need clearing out.

 

Noticable yesterday how little pace we have up front, Spuds were happy to play a very high line confident that we didn't have the quality in midfield or the pace up front to hurt them.

[shurlock]

I don't have a problem with the ball being passed sideways so long as the player who passes sideways then moves forward to receive it. To often this season a player has passed sideways and just stood there like a statue. Pass and then move into space, that's how you get into space and break through the oppositions lines. All IMO of course...

 

It is, though we've never really did that with Victor and Morgan (Morgan broke into the box sporadically). Saying that, we didn't have to as Victor and Morgan's presence ensured we could grind out wins without being too expansive. Now, we're in a bit of a no man's land- our midfield isn't strong enough to win by not conceding; nor is it strong enough to win by opening up opposition defenses.

 

Of course, our lack of movement isn't limited to the midfield. The players up top hardly interchange, with Tadic and Mané often clinging rigidly to the touchline. The result is that there aren't options "between the lines" for the midfield, even if it looks up (so responsibility runs in both directions). Its not surprising we attempt more crosses per game than any other team in the league, though it quickly becomes easy to neutralise if your only threat is Pelle and nobody else is attacking the box.

Edited 20 December, 2015 by shurlock

[verlaine1979]

It is, though we've never really did that with Victor and Morgan (Morgan broke into the box sporadically). Saying that, we didn't have to as Victor and Morgan's presence ensured we could grind out wins without being too expansive. Now, we're in a bit of a no man's land- our midfield isn't strong enough to win by not conceding; nor is it strong enough to win by opening up opposition defenses.

 

Of course, our lack of movement isn't limited to the midfield. The players up top hardly interchange, with Tadic and Mané often clinging rigidly to the touchline. The result is that there aren't options "between the lines" for the midfield, even if it looks up (so responsibility runs in both directions). Its not surprising we attempt more crosses per game than any other team in the league, though it quickly becomes easy to neutralise if your only threat is Pelle and nobody else is attacking the box.

 

Yup, gone are the days of playing from a position rather than in a position - Koeman has obviously instructed the wide players to stick rigidly to the touchline. Among other things, surely this means our attacking approach is completely telegraphed.

[Verbal Kint]

Yup, gone are the days of playing from a position rather than in a position - Koeman has obviously instructed the wide players to stick rigidly to the touchline. Among other things, surely this means our attacking approach is completely telegraphed.

 

There were times with MP where we looked equally toothless playing that way, as we were regularly too narrow and congested. I don't mind wide players staying wide, as long as you have a midfielder capable of switching play quickly (Wanyama can't) and you have a second striker/no 10 who is prepared to drop off and take up space, which Mane can do but is played wide too often

[derry]

Play Mane and Long together up the middle until January, with another forward, Juanmi, Seager? on the right. Consider a midfield of Romeu (holding) Clasie and Tadic on the left. Rein in the full backs so that only one gets forward at a time, basically defenders defend. This could switch into a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 as wanted. Get Austin in in January, JayRod fed in from the bench after a good series of run outs in the U21s to get some goals and regular games.

[DuncanRG]

We've haven't been an especially potent attacking team for a couple of years now

 

Sorry, was that the year we scored 54 goals (sixth most in the league) or the previous year where we also scored 54 (eighth most)? Perhaps it was the year before, where despite fighting relegation we finished in the top half for goals scored with 49?

 

Our movement does need to improve, for sure.

Edited 21 December, 2015 by DuncanRG

[Marsdinho]

Im just glad that some people are starting to realise that our incessant desire to accommodate Steven Davis in the starting XI is one of our problems.

[shurlock]

Sorry, was that the year we scored 54 goals (sixth most in the league) or the previous year where we also scored 54 (eighth most)? Perhaps it was the year before, where despite fighting relegation we finished in the top half for goals scored with 49?

 

Our movement does need to improve, for sure.

 

Take the goals against Sunderland and Villa out of the picture and things look very different. Who cares that we stramrolled a couple of teams, did those extra goals translate into more points? Did they help us in other games when we failed conspicuously to break down the opposition?

[CB Fry]

Take the goals against Sunderland and Villa out of the picture and things look very different. Who cares that we stramrolled a couple of teams, did those extra goals translate into more points? Did they help us in other games when we failed conspicuously to break down the opposition?

Agree, I think a distribution graph of goals scored by game over 2015 might look rather alarming.

 

As our friend The9 likes to say, clean sheets are more valuable than goals and that saw us right kast season but now our defence has turned to sh it we are in trouble both ends.

 

I get the feeling Koemans true style is "we'll score more" so probably this end of the pitch that needs attention. (We need to improve elsewhere too, of course)

 

Any stattos know how many games we have scored in the 36 or so games this year, and how that stacks up vs the competition?

[DuncanRG]

Take the goals against Sunderland and Villa out of the picture and things look very different. Who cares that we stramrolled a couple of teams, did those extra goals translate into more points? Did they help us in other games when we failed conspicuously to break down the opposition?

 

Make those Villa and Sunderland games ordinary drubbings of say, 3-0 (because it would be daft to measure us on 36 games when everyone else gets 38 ) and we scored 46 goals, joint 10th. That is a fair difference, but not the sign of an impotent team.

 

And we didn't beat anyone 8-0 in the previous two years, where we hit the tallies I mentioned.

 

We've sometimes struggled to break down sides who dig in and defend at St Marys, and we've dipped in 2015 as mentioned above, but to call us an impotent (or not especially potent) attacking team over two years where we scored more goals than most of our rivals is complete and utter drivel.

Edited 21 December, 2015 by DuncanRG

[SFKA South Woodford]

A good post. With the exception of Tadic every other midfielder we have won't pass forwards and needs about 5 touches. We need to change the way we play and soon because we're easily worked out by half decent managers. If we are going to play it up to static Pelle, i want to see players around him ready and if we're going to create something, give the ball to tadic ffs. Every time he gets it you have a feeling something is going to happen. I think JWP deserves to start the next game simply because he looked like he was up for the fight when he came on. The answer is the elusive man from Uruguay

 

Are you wearing JWP and Tadic tinted glasses? JWP only ever tracks his man from three yards away where he can't do anything to stop a pass put a tackle in or put any pressure on the player he is "tracking" he has no pace, his supposed world class delivery is more like Hermes than DHL and his pass completion is only good when it's backwards or sideways. So no, he doesn't deserve to start, especially when he can't put his foot through the ball when he has plenty of space in the box to score from less than ten yards out.

 

As for Tadic, it's sickening how he bottles out of challenges that he is a clear favourite to win, let alone the 50/50's he could win with a bit of guts. He needs to start having a shot occasionally too, he has been in some excellent scoring positions this season, only to look to pass it to a player who hasn't got a hope of getting a shot in. His tracking back is non existent, leaving the full back horribly exposed and causing the midfield to have to attempt to cover dragging them out of position. He has also stopped dropping to look for the ball and turning on it, preferring to pass it backwards instead. He needs to want the ball and call for it, then drive with it when he does get it. We looked much better on Saturday when we were passing the short, sharp triangles which we did last season to great effect which he needs to be at the centre of. If he continues to put in half arsed displays like the one on Saturday he should lose his place until he can show a bit more commitment and movement.

 

BTW, I know the other players are far less than blameless for our current predicament too!

[verlaine1979]

Make those Villa and Sunderland games ordinary drubbings of say, 3-0 (because it would be daft to measure us on 36 games when everyone else gets 38 ) and we scored 46 goals, joint 10th. That is a fair difference, but not the sign of an impotent team.

 

And we didn't beat anyone 8-0 in the previous two years, where we hit the tallies I mentioned.

 

We've sometimes struggled to break down sides who dig in and defend at St Marys, and we've dipped in 2015 as mentioned above, but to call us an impotent (or not especially potent) attacking team over two years where we scored more goals than most of our rivals is complete and utter drivel.

 

The second half of Poch's last season I felt we'd started to become a bit stale in attack, then last season, if you discount the two freak results against Sunderland and Villa (neither of which look remotely like recurring this season) and expand our 36 game average over the whole season, you end up with 42 goals. This would have placed us 14/15 in the league for goals scored, which to me is a fairer reflection of the attacking potency of a team whose top scorer had a 20 hour barren streak, and who only managed 1 goal in 5 matches in February.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about Pochettino's team falling off towards the end of the season, but even if that's true, the three primary goalscorers of that team aren't playing for us anymore.

[derry]

If you want to see all that is wrong with Davis watch the BBC South clip of the first goal. It starts after Davis unloads the ball to an opponent and Clasie's tackle that rebounds to Alli. Davis can be clearly seen trotting back now level with Fonte's tackle where Kane receives the ball, Davis still jogging back, Kane goes towards goal Davis still jogging slightly quicker, Soares out of position trying hard get back to get a tackle in but on the wrong side, Davis in the ideal position to go in hard on Kane but slows up, pulls out and lets him by with only VVD to beat and score.

 

Davis pulls that stunt all the time. Pressing he only tracks and rarely gets close enough in my mind making damn sure he is always a bit short then when confronted by a physical tackle he does what he did here slows down and waves a foot, oh dear too late. As for the pointing as he strolls around.

[verlaine1979]

If you want to see all that is wrong with Davis watch the BBC South clip of the first goal. It starts after Davis unloads the ball to an opponent and Clasie's tackle that rebounds to Alli. Davis can be clearly seen trotting back now level with Fonte's tackle where Kane receives the ball, Davis still jogging back, Kane goes towards goal Davis still jogging slightly quicker, Soares out of position trying hard get back to get a tackle in but on the wrong side, Davis in the ideal position to go in hard on Kane but slows up, pulls out and lets him by with only VVD to beat and score.

 

Davis pulls that stunt all the time. Pressing he only tracks and rarely gets close enough in my mind making damn sure he is always a bit short then when confronted by a physical tackle he does what he did here slows down and waves a foot, oh dear too late. As for the pointing as he strolls around.

 

But he's so important to the way we play!

[VectisSaint]

But he's so important to the way we play!

 

Mutual admiration society for the Davis haters. The first goal Saturday was entirely Davis' fault. The rest of what Derry posted is just ********. You saw how we completely disintegrated once he was subbed and we turned into a total shambles for the last 20.

[TheCholulaKid]

Been saying it a long time, but it doesn't go down well because it seems so harsh. And it is, he's tried hard and done well for us, but he's a terrible number 10 and that's the role he often finds himself in. I'm not sure why being neat and tidy and trying hard is sufficient for so many people in that role. We usually have 2 defensive midfielders behind him so playing another ridiculously goal shy cautious player is frustrating. Add in a slow target man striker and erratic Tadic who doesn't like shooting and you have problems.

 

It was a problem before we lost Schneiderlin, before we lost Lallana and Lambert. Rodriguez, Lallana and Lambert were a superb three who all scored, but if they didn't, they weren't getting any help from the attacking midfielder Davis were they. I swear if we'd had a decent goalscoring no10 in front of Schneiderlin and Wanyama either of the last two seasons we'd have been top 5. But the investment and risk hasn't been there. Someone like Payet would have been perfect for the role, or you know, that Ramirez bloke. Many will defend Davis but come on, there is no comparison. Davis for me is a great squad option, the sort you'd want coming on to see out a game regularly, or back up in central midfield. If he must start, it should be in one of the two central midfield positions, competing with Wanyama, Clasie, Romeu, JWP and Reed.

 

I like this post

[Lord Duckhunter]

The first goal Saturday was entirely Davis' fault.

 

Don't talk nonsense man . Classie & Fonte missed 2 tackles , Fontes doubling shocking as he missed the man and still got booked . VvD , who I'm a big fan of normally , put in a disgraceful airy fairy , "I don't want to get hurt" swing of his leg . Had a Spurs midfielder given the ball away you can bet your life that both centre halves & one centre mid wouldn't have all missed their tackles .

 

And for people to post about Gaston in the number 10 role . FFS , give it up . He's not fit to lace Steve Davis boots . Ones a respected pro and the others been nicking a living for over 3 years .

Edited 22 December, 2015 by Lord Duckhunter

[Kingsbridge Saint]

I would love to see some stats this season on the number of sides with 60+% 70+% possession who have lost the game. it would be illuminating I am sure. Also the EPL need to understand how hard it is to watch possession based football at 2am in the morning in Australia, without slipping through the wardrobe to Narnia. Football could do with a shot clock, like water polo. Saints would be buggered of course.