5 things we learned about last night

[Window Cleaner]

Don't be mean, you know what I mean.

 

Something like we were in an unnaturally long-term low position when we were in Lge One and we were still below our long term average when we were in the Championship. Last year we rode in the top 4 for a part of the season and had our highest finish in modern times. We were everybody's darling, surely you remember that? We played some great stuff in front of a generally pretty solid defence.

 

Looks to me like we're back to the same old, same old, in 12 short months. The players look unfit, unmotivated, the better ones want out, we will likely finish somewhere between 8th and 14th, we might occasionally bring down a big beast, we will probably take a couple of hits ourselves, I'd say normal service has been resumed.

 

Simply because we sold 2 excellent players last summer and lost a third because he didn't want to sign for us on a permanent basis (even though he said he did!!) We replaced them with mid range tat and quantity over quality squad fillers.

When you sell the league's best DM for 25 million or so you need to replace him with something better that a dutch midget and a no hoper,card collecting Chelsea reject.

[Junior Mullet]

Well I thought Harry Reed looked pretty competent when he was called upon last year. Perhaps others saw something that I didn't to his detriment. Still do not see what people see in Clasie, run of the mill CM...

 

Did you see him last night in the first half, down by the left back corner flag. He won the ball in a tackle, had no easy options on and so just kicked it out for a throw to Liverpool. He could have at least tried to knock it out off of the Liverpool player's shins. It was hardly a dangerous position to give the ball away if that didn't work. It was one of the weirdest and most submissive things I've seen at a football match in ages. He simply didn't back himself to get out of a tight spot. It was so poor I checked it on the highlights when I got home - sure enough he just passed it out of play.

[Window Cleaner]

I agree about Reed, I was thinking more about Gallagher. I still think that we have yet to see the best of Clasie.

 

What else is there to see exactly, he is what he is a bog standard dutch CM who looks good in a poor league.

He cost 8 million, won't get exceptional players for that. Feyenoord are doing just as well without him as they did with him it would seem.

[ScepticalStan]

Alderweireld > Van Dijk

Clyne > Cedric

Schneiderlin > Clasie

 

I said this a while ago; though the club is well-run at the moment and we won't be getting relegated, we as fans would probably have to accept a slight step down in first-team quality, but no-one was having any of it.

 

As my wise old mother used to say; "if you don't hear, you must feel".

[sadoldgit]

What else is there to see exactly, he is what he is a bog standard dutch CM who looks good in a poor league.

He cost 8 million, won't get exceptional players for that. Feyenoord are doing just as well without him as they did with him it would seem.

 

His fitness levels are clearly not right yet and there are plenty of players who come in from abroad who take time to settle into the Premiership. I wouldnt worry about how much he cost. If he goes on to become a quality player for us that £8m will be seen as a bargain.

[The9]

We learnt that our keeper doesnt make saves, I cannot recall a match saving moment

 

I might have expected him to MAYBE stop the one that went under him if he was lucky, and even then they'd have probably scored a rebound. The rest of them were just him being exposed and can't complain about his performance at all.

 

We are not fit enough anymore,

I didn't think that at all - in fact our players were busting a gut late on to chase the game even though behind. Fitness had nothing to do with it (apart from Fonte's).

 

We do not close the players down (see above)

We did so all match long - but when they pass to a midfielder in space from their box and any through ball dissects your defence it doesn't matter much.

 

Mane looks as though he is not going to be here after jan

He'll leave in the summer - I thought he worked hard, not sure if that's a criticism of his workrate or a plaudit for being a class apart?

 

Our quality or lack of is really telling

We took them apart for 25 minutes.

 

There is no energy in midfield

I can't explain how they were missing in the middle for balls from the back when we went to 3-5-2, but Steven Davis in particular was everywhere and there was plenty of hard work and closing down - Liverpool scored from shifting the ball quickly and in behind our poor defensive line, nothing else.

 

its ok having a Black Box and reading the information on it but the clever part is having the right people analysing it. Perhaps Mitchells departure has been more telling than we may have thought

I'd be surprised if anything in the data showed suggested playing 3-5-2 with Wanyama at CB was the smartest move, even when chasing a 2 goal deficit in a cup match at home.

 

The fans were fantastic IMO

In patches. Apart from the 50% of them who went home before the end.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by The9

[The9]

I said this a while ago; though the club is well-run at the moment and we won't be getting relegated, we as fans would probably have to accept a slight step down in first-team quality, but no-one was having any of it.

 

As my wise old mother used to say; "if you don't hear, you must feel".

 

This is the argument for the starting XI being weaker, which everyone pretty much agrees on. Nothing to do with squad depth.

[Window Cleaner]

His fitness levels are clearly not right yet and there are plenty of players who come in from abroad who take time to settle into the Premiership. I wouldnt worry about how much he cost. If he goes on to become a quality player for us that £8m will be seen as a bargain.

 

I remember all of these reasons being presented ad nauseum for Gaston, never really got any better though did it..

[The9]

Well I thought Harry Reed looked pretty competent when he was called upon last year. Perhaps others saw something that I didn't to his detriment. Still do not see what people see in Clasie, run of the mill CM...

 

I saw Reed look like he was going to get sent off in every match and only get to tackles after the ball had gone, if that's what you mean? That was precisely the problem yesterday, they shifted the ball forward so quickly we couldn't prevent the ball being moved, and then with the weakness at the back from Caulker instead of Fonte alongside Van Dijk we didn't defend it well and they scored with most of their attacks. Pretty similar to the Everton game to be honest.

[Window Cleaner]

This is the argument for the starting XI being weaker, which everyone pretty much agrees on. Nothing to do with squad depth.

 

But when you agree on the first team what's left exactly, Juanmi? yeah right, Martina......arf arf arf, Caulker/Yoshida ? Are they really any better than last year's back ups, in fact in Yoshida's case it's exactly the same. We've lost 3 good players, 2 of which have been replaced with inferior quality.

[once_bitterne]

Don't be mean, you know what I mean.

 

Something like we were in an unnaturally long-term low position when we were in Lge One and we were still below our long term average when we were in the Championship. Last year we rode in the top 4 for a part of the season and had our highest finish in modern times. We were everybody's darling, surely you remember that? We played some great stuff in front of a generally pretty solid defence.

 

Looks to me like we're back to the same old, same old, in 12 short months. The players look unfit, unmotivated, the better ones want out, we will likely finish somewhere between 8th and 14th, we might occasionally bring down a big beast, we will probably take a couple of hits ourselves, I'd say normal service has been resumed.

 

Southampton Liebherr Holdings?

[The9]

But when you agree on the first team what's left exactly, Juanmi? yeah right, Martina......arf arf arf, Caulker/Yoshida ? Are they really any better than last year's back ups, in fact in Yoshida's case it's exactly the same. We've lost 3 good players, 2 of which have been replaced with inferior quality.

 

We do have more strength in depth as we have more alternatives. Last year's backups were mainly U21s who still aren't up to it.

 

You're not really likely to see an improvement in a one-off when the player has had all of 3 days' training to build a partnership to play against a top 6 side with someone they haven't played alongside before. The point is still that our backups are probably ok in isolation against bottom half Prem clubs so we're less likely to have a single failure make us significantly worse in those games. Those backups are either just better than last season's backups, or we just have more options than last season.

 

Against the top sides you still need all your best players on form to get a result, we didn't have that option last night.

 

Alderweireld and Schneiderlin are excellent players that we can't hope to replace without spending the same amount they cost to buy, and we will have a drop off until the replacements step up. Again, that's the first XI, not the squad discussion.

 

In terms of squad (and I'm ignoring players who played both last season and this) we now have either Romeu/Clasie as options replacing one player who left. RB we have the same backup options as last year plus Martina. CBs are a straight swap, and when Gardos is fit we'll have another (backup) option there. Same goes for GK. Going forward we've had Rodriguez back for 12 games already, and Juanmi and Ramirez have come in.

 

Everything else is the same, the U21 options are no different, some of the other players who made the bench last season (and the season before) are out on loan getting experience and may or may not come back better, but they're still available to us.

[Sour Mash]

Don't be mean, you know what I mean.

 

Something like we were in an unnaturally long-term low position when we were in Lge One and we were still below our long term average when we were in the Championship. Last year we rode in the top 4 for a part of the season and had our highest finish in modern times. We were everybody's darling, surely you remember that? We played some great stuff in front of a generally pretty solid defence.

 

Looks to me like we're back to the same old, same old, in 12 short months. The players look unfit, unmotivated, the better ones want out, we will likely finish somewhere between 8th and 14th, we might occasionally bring down a big beast, we will probably take a couple of hits ourselves, I'd say normal service has been resumed.

I assume if we look at the threads on here after the Chelsea game, you had posted similar? And if not, why not?

 

And does "back to the same old, same old" mean?

[ADutchSaint]

What else is there to see exactly, he is what he is a bog standard dutch CM who looks good in a poor league.

He cost 8 million, won't get exceptional players for that. Feyenoord are doing just as well without him as they did with him it would seem.

 

Probably i already said this before on here but he didnt look good to me even in the Dutch League. On the ball and if you dont put pressure on him then yes, he's a good player with the ability to deliver a great pass but i've seen him struggle plenty of times in the Dutch League.

 

I would have never bought Clasie. He has no pace, no stamina, not particularly quick on his feet and he's a midget. Thats a lot of stuff you have to compensate for with your passing ability's and if your not on the level of a Ozil or Iniesta, your just going to have a hard time outside of Holland (which we have seen him have in the Dutch national team. Watch the friendly against France for example, Pogba made him not just look bad but he made him look utterly silly).

 

Clasie just was no Strootman or van Ginkel in Holland and even Bazoer from Ajax, who just turned 19, already made a bigger impression on me then Clasie has ever done in the Dutch League.

 

For example, i was watching Dortmund against Schalke a few weeks back and Dortmund bought Weigl for half the price Clasie went for and that 20 year old kid is already twice the player Clasie will ever be so you can get great/exceptional players for not even that much.

 

I just dont see it in Clasie, he's a old-fashioned player if you ask me.

[Window Cleaner]

Probably i already said this before on here but he didnt look good to me even in the Dutch League. On the ball and if you dont put pressure on him then yes, he's a good player with the ability to deliver a great pass but i've seen him struggle plenty of times in the Dutch League.

 

I would have never bought Clasie. He has no pace, no stamina, not particularly quick on his feet and he's a midget. Thats a lot of stuff you have to compensate for with your passing ability's and if your not on the level of a Ozil or Iniesta, your just going to have a hard time outside of Holland (which we have seen him have in the Dutch national team. Watch the friendly against France for example, Pogba made him not just look bad but he made him look utterly silly).

 

Clasie just was no Strootman or van Ginkel in Holland and even Bazoer from Ajax, who just turned 19, already made a bigger impression on me then Clasie has ever done in the Dutch League.

 

For example, i was watching Dortmund against Schalke a few weeks back and Dortmund bought Weigl for half the price Clasie went for and that 20 year old kid is already twice the player Clasie will ever be so you can get great/exceptional players for not even that much.

 

I just dont see it in Clasie, he's a old-fashioned player if you ask me.

 

 

No no no, you've not got used to this forum, players who aren't playing well (or at all ) are always going to get better next week, next season or the next time they play. Saints do not spend money on crap who'll never get better or adapt.. I mean some even think we'll get something out of Gaston Ramirez yet even though he'll leave on a free in 4 weeks time...they are just hopelessly optimistic.

 

NB I went to that France-Holland game, the whole side were awful, but then they usually are without Robben.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Window Cleaner

[doddisalegend]

OK, perhaps my mention of plaudits was unnecessary. But aside from that one sentence, do you disagree with the more important points that I've raised?

 

I never said the club is going to **** and a disaster zone. I was actually making comments about our football.

 

That wasn't aimed specifically at you just a general observation on the forum as whole every time we go through a bad patch.

[doddisalegend]

What's the mean? Is sitting 10th in the table, having finished 7th the previous year, a rapid regression? Think you're overdoing it there.

 

In fairness we are a whole 3pts of 5th place basically our season is over.....

 

 

 

....

[sandwichsaint]

I assume if we look at the threads on here after the Chelsea game, you had posted similar? And if not, why not?

 

And does "back to the same old, same old" mean?

 

I assume you know the difference between weather and climate, yes?

 

There was a whole thread yesterday about our 'natural level' where the consensus was that we can sustain a mid-table position but not realistically aspire to anything very much higher, and we can give it our best shot in the cups each year.

 

I'd agree that's pretty much where we are at the moment and it's pretty typical of our longer term historical position (8th-12th is probably a bit higher than our long term average but on last night's showing I'm not sure 8th-12th is a long-term given).

[Window Cleaner]

In fairness we are a whole 3pts of 5th place basically our season is over.....

 

 

 

....

 

5 points and +10 on GD actually.,

[SaintEllz]

How is any goalkeeper expected to make a save when the defense were non existent infront of him?

[Sour Mash]

I assume you know the difference between weather and climate, yes?

 

There was a whole thread yesterday about our 'natural level' where the consensus was that we can sustain a mid-table position but not realistically aspire to anything very much higher, and we can give it our best shot in the cups each year.

 

I'd agree that's pretty much where we are at the moment and it's pretty typical of our longer term historical position (8th-12th is probably a bit higher than our long term average but on last night's showing I'm not sure 8th-12th is a long-term given).

So no answer to my question, sums up your waffle I guess.

[alpine_saint]

- We bought crap over the summer except VVD

- We still have a wafer-thin squad

- Consequently we are going backwards again

[eddie]

- We bought crap over the summer except VVD

- We still have a wafer-thin squad*

- Consequently we are going backwards again

 

*a squad of players who can actually be trusted to perform week in week out to an alright level

[TUS]

Personally, I think Clasie is miles out of his depth in the Prem. van Dijk has been our best signing, but as soon as we lose our other strong CB we are in trouble. It's been the same at the back (and between the posts) for several seasons now. We have good attacking players, but when momentum is against us that counts for very little. No effective breaking up play. No keeping the ball. No creativity. Morgan has been an immense loss IMO. But he isn't irreplaceable - we just don't have a replacement in the squad at the moment.

[Give it to Ron]

5 things from last night

 

1. Klopp sussed us out pretty quickly put 3 men around Pelle who pick up his flicks and passes and starves us of possession - no plan B

2. Caulker had an absolute mare and not up to this level - we have no-one on our bench who can change a game

3. We have absolutely no leaders in our team - not one player who is willing to roll up their sleeves and boll8ck others

4. Koeman needs to tell our midfield they are allowed to tackle - running alongside isn't doing a good job and we are crap without the ball

5. It was a rubbish way to celebrate my birthday!!!

[The9]

1) I should have gone to Stereophonics.

[sydenhamssocks]

Everyone on here has there own favourites/formations etc, but based on what would seem to be the managers first choice side, this is effectively our second 11 (notwithstanding any younger players)

 

Gazzaniga. Martina. Caulker. Yoshida. Target. Ward-Prowse. Romeu. Reed. Ramirez. Long. Juanmi

 

Does that side show a depth of quality and not just numbers? I'm not sure it does. Not all of them bad but not all of them great. If the first 11 were unavailable. Don't think these guys would keep us where we'd like to be for very long.

An unlikely scenario of course, but man for man they are almost all a step down from a fully fit on form first choice side.

[Saint_Jonny]

1) I should have gone to Stereophonics.

 

A million times this! Hindsight and all that...

[Batman]

I honestly do not believe we have a better squad. despite best efforts

[trousers]

What the hell happened to Harry Reed?

 

Last seen playing in a 7-2 defeat in the U21s I believe....

[The9]

I honestly do not believe we have a better squad. despite best efforts

 

Try some comparisons between last season's (or the season before's) benches and this. Also, don't forget all the "why don't we pick Reed?" stuff is irrelevant, because he's a constant in both.

[Saint Garrett]

Few points from me:

 

1) Long ball, long ball long ball.

2) Caulker is a pub team player, truly dreadful

3) We don't close down the opposition at all, just let them pick their passes

4) We are so slow going forward

5) We have no impact off the bench whatsoever

 

Very very disappointing all around last night.

[Saint Billy]

One thing last night taught me is Saints are no way as good as some on here think they are.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

We have a soft underbelly and other teams know it

We are not as fit as we were under MP

No one there to make Pelle fight for his place

RK has stated smelling the roses

You can't replace men (Schneiderlin) with boys (Clasie)

Apart from mane we are one-paced

[DuncanRG]

I couldn't watch the game last night, but why is Caulker a pub team player now? Surely a bad game is a bad game, as his City performance was a good one?

[Whitey Grandad]

One thing last night taught me is Saints are no way as good as some on here think they are.

 

We don't have the depth of squad that's needed, not quality players at least. One of Liverpool's players last night have number 56 on his back. We have a squad of 29 players, they have 49.

[Window Cleaner]

I couldn't watch the game last night, but why is Caulker a pub team player now? Surely a bad game is a bad game, as his City performance was a good one?

 

He wasn't that good at City. They eased up when they went 2 up and then Aguero went off. Bony might be good in the air but on the deck he's a slug compared to the ability of Sturridge when he wants to show it. We weren't good at City in any way, 2 quick goals and it was done and dusted for them.

[Window Cleaner]

We don't have the depth of squad that's needed, not quality players at least. One of Liverpool's players last night have number 56 on his back. We have a squad of 29 players, they have 49.

 

But to be honest Randall is their McCarthy or some other young man from the unders who has the number 44 shirt or similar.

He got a game, rocky at first and then grew into it but at least his manager had confidence in him.

[Pancake]

But to be honest Randall is their McCarthy or some other young man from the unders who has the number 44 shirt or similar.

He got a game, rocky at first and then grew into it but at least his manager had confidence in him.

 

We should really have put him under more pressure after his yellow card. We never do that.

[Window Cleaner]

We should really have put him under more pressure after his yellow card. We never do that.

 

Of course, don't know why we didn't, manager should have called someone over and told them to do it.

[david in sweden]

I'm trying to recall an actual save Stek has made. Every shot on target looks like it'll go in at the moment.

 

this was a bad game for almost everyone..we played at half pace and Liverpool literally had a field day.

Stek has been reasonably consistent up until last night, but it's easy to blame a goalie when you concede 6, but our " so -called " defence was almost non-existent.

 

BUT ...my worse fear is that RK may revert to KD or Gazzaniga on Saturday....

[Window Cleaner]

 

BUT ...my worse fear is that RK may revert to KD or Gazzaniga on Saturday....

 

Why would he do that exactly. Stek is the undisputed number 1 at the club and will no doubt play when fit.

Until Forster is fit to return that is of course.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Window Cleaner

[david in sweden]

call it unlucky ...or just bad timing .....but is the whole system seems just " a little too nice " for Saints players - at all levels.

 

In the last week both the U18 and U21 sides have conceded 7 goals ....and after last night's shambles ....the first team don't look much better.

 

There is no fear factor anymore and some of these players need to get to grips with reality. We have too much "pretty footbal" and not enough muscle in any team..

[Window Cleaner]

call it unlucky ...or just bad timing .....but is the whole system seems just " a little too nice " for Saints players - at all levels.

 

In the last week both the U18 and U21 sides have conceded 7 goals ....and after last night's shambles ....the first team don't look much better.

 

There is no fear factor anymore and some of these players need to get to grips with reality. We have too much "pretty footbal" and not enough muscle in any team..

 

When you suffer heavy defeats as our three sides did this week luck does not enter into the equation. It generally means that you are generally not good enough or something is wrong somewhere in the root structure of the club.

Hunter was already criticising his players for their standard of play back in August, perhaps it's got better since then but the writing was already on the wall. Why exactly Jaidi seemed to be in charge at Norwich who knows.

Now 2 summers back we sacked Dodd and Williams from the U18s and got some other bloke, who'll no doubt excuse me for forgetting his name if I ever knew it, but I'm not sure that the results have got any much better.

[david in sweden]

Why would he do that exactly. Stek is the undisputed number 1 at the club and will no doubt play when fit.

Until Forster is fit to return that is of course.

 

Any goalie who's conceded 6 goals won't turn up for training the next day with a smile on his face, it's a matter of how his confidence will be affected.

I hope to goodness he does keep his place, but you can bet they'll be changes of some sort for Saturday but playing the bottom of the league isn't always a walkover.

 

It's the sort of game that (some) managers are inclined to give the bench regulars an outing, but I can't see it being another 6-1 game like last April.

Villa are up against it right now, and will be all out not to lose on Saturday, and seeing your next opposition lose 1-6 at home must give some sort of encouragement.

[Saint-Armstrong]

 

[david in sweden]

 

It generally means that you are generally not good enough or something is wrong somewhere in the root structure of the club.

 

Hunter was already criticising his players for their standard of play back in August, perhaps it's got better since then but the writing was already on the wall.

Why exactly Jaidi seemed to be in charge at Norwich who knows.

 

1) ...that was my point in the first sentence.

 

2) I think Hunter is a good coach, but he not a young man, and Jaidi is his assistant (or whatever?)....perhaps with a view to eventually succeeding Hunter?

Jaidi was interviewed (pre-match) on behalf of the U21's earlier in the season. It seemed to me that the two are working in tandem a.t.m.

[Give it to Ron]

 

 

A picture that paints a thousand words - exactly what I was screaming at last night - can someone send that to the Koemans!

[Window Cleaner]

A picture that paints a thousand words - exactly what I was screaming at last night - can someone send that to the Koemans!

 

Not sure how much difference that would make, I mean he watches the game doesn't he and we have countless people on video analysis. He must see it all and he just seems to let it slide by him, anchored in his seat talking to his brother. Klopp seems to stand for most of the game and is always after his players, for good acts and bad.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Window Cleaner

[corky morris]

1. If we can get £20m for Wanyama then do it quickly! He gives the ball away far too much.

2. Pelle needs supply, without it he is redundant

3. JWP needs to be loaned out

4. Caulker isn't any better than what we have already (FWIW Stephens cant get in the Middlesbrough team)

5. We desperately need width & pace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Point 5 being the most important.............................................

 

How many of you were at the 6-2 Spurs game 20 years ago?? Getting beat by 4 or 5 goals used to be a regular occurrence................................

What do we expect? 4th lowest wage bill, negative net spenders, lack of pace, 30000 seater stadium, selling our best players...................RK has attempted a minor miracle, fortunately he succeeded & will continue to do so.