5 things we learned about last night

[Ewell]

1) Jose Fonte is our most important player. He is our leader, linchpin and the man who organizes our defence and makes us tick. Without him we look weak, vulnerable and lack strength.

2) Stephen Caulker just isn't good enough for the Premier league and his omission from the team to date has been the right call.

3) Our attacking trio of Pelle, Mane and Tadic are fantastic when on top but when the going gets tough their heads drop and they give up.

4) Ryan Bertrand is not a midfielder but one of our most dangerous attacking weapons when coming from deep at full back.

5) Liverpool fans, despite the loss of 'no class' Rogers and the gaining of a manager with outstanding personality have more than proven that they are still ****s.

[ladysaint]

I learnt that when we go 4 - 1 down lots just get up and go home. Credit to those that were still singing OWTSGMI in the 90th minute. The lads were down and needed our support, we have done well this season up to now.

[OldNick]

We learnt that our keeper doesnt make saves, I cannot recall a match saving moment

 

We are not fit enough anymore,

 

We do not close the players down (see above)

 

Mane looks as though he is not going to be here after jan

 

Our quality or lack of is really telling

 

There is no energy in midfield

 

its ok having a Black Box and reading the information on it but the clever part is having the right people analysing it. Perhaps Mitchells departure has been more telling than we may have thought

 

The fans were fantastic IMO

[LGTL]

I'm trying to recall an actual save Stek has made. Every shot on target looks like it'll go in at the moment.

[Roger]

Point 3 is not correct. Mane and tadic worked hard til the end I thought.

[Saint Without a Halo]

I'm trying to recall an actual save Stek has made. Every shot on target looks like it'll go in at the moment.

 

They had 7 shots on target he made a save towards the end!

[Pedro]

Spot on.

[Pedro]

Spot on

 

We learnt that our keeper doesnt make saves, I cannot recall a match saving moment

 

We are not fit enough anymore,

 

We do not close the players down (see above)

 

Mane looks as though he is not going to be here after jan

 

Our quality or lack of is really telling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no energy in midfield

 

its ok having a Black Box and reading the information on it but the clever part is having the right people analysing it. Perhaps Mitchells departure has been more telling than we may have thought

 

The fans were fantastic IMO

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I'm trying to recall an actual save Stek has made. Every shot on target looks like it'll go in at the moment.

 

He makes saves but he doesn't make good saves. He makes the saves you'd expect any keeper to. He had a bad night but considering the circumstances in which he was brought in he is adequate.

 

Five things for me:

 

1. We appear to want to play the same way we did last season but we replaced Schneiderlin with someone who is 5% as good off the ball and it has ruined our team. Clasie may be better on the ball but that contribution nowhere near makes up for the stuff we've lost off the ball.

2. We aren't giving players who are going to be wanted in January and the summer a reason to stay at the club

3. Padding out the squad with 'so-so' players is a strategy that ultimately fails - why on earth did we do it?

4. We've lost our identity - I couldn't tell you what sort of team we are any more. We're lost in big games.

5. Caulker needs to be sent back. What is he doing that Jack Stephens on a fraction of the wage couldn't?

[Saint Charlie]

Point 3 is not correct. Mane and tadic worked hard til the end I thought.

Agree. Tadic was our best player on the night and Mane was trying to make something happen right til the end.

[Professor]

The size of the defeat is immaterial as the attempt to get back to 3-2 ended when we went 4-1 down and from then on there was no way back. It was conceding those three goals in the first half that really mattered. According to RK, Liverpool only had 8 shots on target from which 6 shots went in. That must raise a doubt over the goalkeeping so for once it does look like we badly need Forster back as soon as he is recovered.

As for the result, personally, I'm not too bothered because the two-leg semi against Stoke would have been very hard and a distraction from the League and the FA cup. Even if we had got past Liverpool and Stoke, the prize would be a defeat by Man City in the final, so not much to look forward to.

[DT]

I learnt that we are a mid-table Prem club with players we rent for two or three years, when the manager moves on and the process starts again. And that we have okay runs in the cup before fizzling out. Also, that it's difficult explaining to my son, who went to bed with us one up, when he asked this morning: 'how did that happen?'

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm trying to recall an actual save Stek has made. Every shot on target looks like it'll go in at the moment.

 

They weren't just on target. They were low down and in the corners. None of our players can hit shots like that.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

As for the result, personally, I'm not too bothered because the two-leg semi against Stoke would have been very hard and a distraction from the League and the FA cup. Even if we had got past Liverpool and Stoke, the prize would be a defeat by Man City in the final, so not much to look forward to.

 

What are we doing in the League and FA Cup that would be so important that a potential Cup Final doesn't matter?

 

We're going to finish midtable in the League no matter what and the FA Cup is another cup competition that we're 5 games away from Wembley in whilst the Capital One Cup would have been 2 games (the Semi-Final).

[DT]

They were about 6-1 better than us in technical ability, leadership, spirit and wages.

[Plastic]

I learnt that when we go 4 - 1 down lots just get up and go home.

 

Or on the case of the couple in front of me, 3-1 down. They didn't come back after half time! Made for a great view though.

By 70mins I pretty much had the row to myself.

[Roger]

The crux of the matter was the fact that kl decided that we were going to change course in ambition terms and cortese who was a horrid man but did a lot right left us. Since then we have lost 9 very good players and although we did a decent job of replacing them, this year we have replaced them with caulker, Cedric, Martina, clasie.

[sadoldgit]

Point 3 is not correct. Mane and tadic worked hard til the end I thought.

 

Agree with that, especially Tadic I didn't think Stek had much chance with any of them to be fair. He was given no cover and how often does virtually every shot on target go in? Liverpool played well last night and strangely I think we would have given them a better game if they had played a full strength team. Koeman hasn't become a bad manager overnight and the team haven't become poor overnight but it is very clear, if it wasn't before, that we could do with a couple of players in January.

[sadoldgit]

The crux of the matter was the fact that kl decided that we were going to change course in ambition terms and cortese who was a horrid man but did a lot right left us. Since then we have lost 9 very good players and although we did a decent job of replacing them, this year we have replaced them with caulker, Cedric, Martina, clasie.

 

Would we have brought in Caulker and Martina if Gardos and Bertrand hadn't been injured? As for Clasie, we have yet to see the best of him. I am sure he will come good.

[Roger]

Would we have brought in Caulker and Martina if Gardos and Bertrand hadn't been injured? As for Clasie, we have yet to see the best of him. I am sure he will come good.

 

Is gardos good enough though?

[Saint Without a Halo]

I learnt that

1) despite having a so called good squad we are still dependant on all our 1st eleven being fit we just cant do without any one of Bertrand, Mane, Fonte, Wanyama, s Davis and Van Dijk after that Tadic and Pelle are also key

2) of our signings this year only Van Dijk seems up to it Clasie and Soares have to improve and are still to come good, Romeau, Jauanmi, Martina and Caulker are just not up to it and we should get rid.

3) Yoshida lost his place at CB where he is reliable to Caulker because of mistakes he made when played out of position at right back he should have played yesterday

4) Wanyama is not a Centre Back and Bertrand is not a midfielder so our plan B was highly defective

5) We will be lucky to keep Wanyama, Mane and Koeman as we appear to have peaked.

6) Our substitutions rarely work Long and JWP did nothing

7) Our supply chain of good young players seems to have dried up

We should have signed a good back up right back that is good enough to play

9) Stek has good distribution and looks good behind a sound defence and holding midfielders but when exposed seems to let everything in very poor saves to shots on target Ratio.

10) We should have have gone for better quality and more cost in replacing Clyne and Morgan

11) We have no plan B and look to have lost fitness and the closing down ethic Poch instilled

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Saint Without a Halo

[shurlock]

Would we have brought in Caulker and Martina if Gardos and Bertrand hadn't been injured? As for Clasie, we have yet to see the best of him. I am sure he will come good.

 

Martina wasn't brought in for Bertrand. Defensively, for the past couple of seasons, we've been light in personnel. We never did quite replace Chambers until this summer.

[Whitey Grandad]

I learnt that

1) despite having a so called good squad we are still dependant on all our 1st eleven being fit we just cant do without any one of Bertrand, Mane, Fonte, Wanyama, s Davis and Van Dijk after that Tadic and Pelle are also key

2) of our signings this year only Van Dijk seems up to it Clasie and Soares have to improve and are still to come good, Romeau, Jauanmi, Martina and Caulker are just not up to it and we should get rid.

3) Yoshida lost his place at CB where he is reliable to Caulker because of mistakes he made when played out of position at right back he should have played yesterday

4) Wanyama is not a Centre Back and Bertrand is not a midfielder so our plan B was highly defective

5) We will be lucky to keep Wanyama, Mane and Koeman as we appear to have peaked.

5) Our substitutions rarely work Long and JWP did nothing

6) Our supply chain of good young players seems to have dried up

7) We should have signed a good back up right back that is good enough to play

Stek has good distribution and looks good behind a sound defence and holding midfielders but when exposed seems to let everything in very poor saves to shots on target Ratio.

9) We should have have gone for better quality and more cost in replacing Clyne and Morgan

10) We have no plan B and look to have lost fitness and the closing down ethic Poch instilled

 

. Shots to target ratio is totally meaningless. Using those measurements a shot in the bottom corner counts as much as one straight at the keeper.

[sadoldgit]

Martina wasn't brought in for Bertrand. Defensively, for the past couple of seasons, we've been light in personnel. We never did quite replace Chambers until this summer.

 

No but he was bought for cover as Targett had to step up.

[sadoldgit]

Is gardos good enough though?

 

Fair question. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he hadn't been injured. He really cant be any worse than Caulker and Yoshi though can he?

[Junior Mullet]

The style and pattern of play that Adkins begun to develop and which Potchettino took to the next level has slowly diminished since RK took over. The pressing game with quick fluid passes has all but fizzled out. Our build up is slow and predictable. We no longer get plaudits for the way we play.

 

Last night Liverpool played the press to perfection, their shape was perfect and they were a lot tougher and more aggressive than us. It was no coincidence that balls seemed to always fall to their players.

 

As soon as we went to 3 at the back after half time players looked confused. They didn't seem to know where they were supposed to be or where their team mates were.

[shurlock]

No but he was bought for cover as Targett had to step up.

 

Thats a very different point. There is a big difference between bringing in cover for a temporary event such as an injury and adding cover as a permanent part of the squad.

 

It's easier to make allowances for the former situation, especially if the contingency is short-term. Caulker falls into that category, even though Gardos injury is longer term; but Martina clearly falls into the latter category and there is no reason we shouldn't have sought higher quality.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by shurlock

[Saint Without a Halo]

. Shots to target ratio is totally meaningless. Using those measurements a shot in the bottom corner counts as much as one straight at the keeper.

 

True but a number of the goals let in recently looked saveable and this statistic just emphasises what can be seen

[doddisalegend]

The style and pattern of play that Adkins begun to develop and which Potchettino took to the next level has slowly diminished since RK took over. The pressing game with quick fluid passes has all but fizzled out. Our build up is slow and predictable. We no longer get plaudits for the way we play.

 

Last night Liverpool played the press to perfection, their shape was perfect and they were a lot tougher and more aggressive than us. It was no coincidence that balls seemed to always fall to their players.

 

As soon as we went to 3 at the back after half time players looked confused. They didn't seem to know where they were supposed to be or where their team mates were.

 

 

I seem to remember plenty of plaudits when we beat Chelsea and Swansea only a few weeks ago. Three defeats in the trot is carp no denying but we were six unbeaten before that

 

As soon as we hit a bad patch why do people suddenly appear out of the wood work claiming the whole club is going to **** and a disaster zone?

[shurlock]

I seem to remember plenty of plaudits when we beat Chelsea and Swansea only a few weeks ago. Three defeats in the trot is carp no denying but we were six unbeaten before that

 

As soon as we hit a bad patch why do people suddenly appear out of the wood work claiming the whole club is going to **** and a disaster zone?

 

The Chelsea game was excellent, even if we played them at the right time. The Swansea game was pretty scrappy despite the scoreline -recall Koeman not being too happy about the performance.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by shurlock

[Super_Uwe]

Certainly a dreadful result last night, but I guess these things happen sometimes.

 

If we lose against Villa on Saturday, then yeah, certainly alarm bells will be ringing. But it's all about the reaction on Saturday, and I think we have enough good players who care enough to make up for last night.

[eddie]

He makes saves but he doesn't make good saves. He makes the saves you'd expect any keeper to. He had a bad night but considering the circumstances in which he was brought in he is adequate.

 

Five things for me:

 

1. We appear to want to play the same way we did last season but we replaced Schneiderlin with someone who is 5% as good off the ball and it has ruined our team. Clasie may be better on the ball but that contribution nowhere near makes up for the stuff we've lost off the ball.

2. We aren't giving players who are going to be wanted in January and the summer a reason to stay at the club

3. Padding out the squad with 'so-so' players is a strategy that ultimately fails - why on earth did we do it?

4. We've lost our identity - I couldn't tell you what sort of team we are any more. We're lost in big games.

5. Caulker needs to be sent back. What is he doing that Jack Stephens on a fraction of the wage couldn't?

 

he's got a beard? counts for something at least

[sadoldgit]

I seem to remember plenty of plaudits when we beat Chelsea and Swansea only a few weeks ago. Three defeats in the trot is carp no denying but we were six unbeaten before that

 

As soon as we hit a bad patch why do people suddenly appear out of the wood work claiming the whole club is going to **** and a disaster zone?

 

Because some posters are desperate to prove that they didn't wet their beds for nothing over the last two summers. We are a decent team but we have had some awful luck with injuries right from pre season and I still think we have yet to see the best of us so far. Perhaps we don't have the strength in depth that we thought we had but we really aren't a poor team. Apart from last night of course which was total carp.

[doddisalegend]

The Chelsea game was excellent, even if we played them at the right time. The Swansea game was pretty scrappy despite the scoreline -recall Koeman not being too happy about the performance.

 

 

Point still stands though we got plaudits in the press for both games only a few weeks ago so when the poster I replied to said "we never get plaudits anymore" I guess he means for the three games we just lost........

[Plastic]

He makes saves but he doesn't make good saves. He makes the saves you'd expect any keeper to. He had a bad night but considering the circumstances in which he was brought in he is adequate.

 

Five things for me:

 

1. We appear to want to play the same way we did last season but we replaced Schneiderlin with someone who is 5% as good off the ball and it has ruined our team. Clasie may be better on the ball but that contribution nowhere near makes up for the stuff we've lost off the ball.

2. We aren't giving players who are going to be wanted in January and the summer a reason to stay at the club

3. Padding out the squad with 'so-so' players is a strategy that ultimately fails - why on earth did we do it?

4. We've lost our identity - I couldn't tell you what sort of team we are any more. We're lost in big games.

5. Caulker needs to be sent back. What is he doing that Jack Stephens on a fraction of the wage couldn't?

 

Cant disagree with any of that. If we are going to play like sh|t, then id rather watch the acadamy lads do it.

What the hell happened to Harry Reed? Played well when we saw him, now nowhere near the senior side.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/21/ronald-koeman-harrison-reed-outstanding-southampton-debut-everton

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Plastic

[sandwichsaint]

1 Watching Saints will forever be a triumph of hope over expectation, after a decent period of growth we appear to be rapidly regressing to the mean.

2 Going to SMS is becoming a pretty soul-less and joyless day out. Away days are much more fun (although also increasingly less good, see point 4)

3 The demise of Liverpool has been greatly exaggerated and they have another 6 or 7 starters who didn't even play last night, one tiny consolation was to see just how much Brenda was under-achieving with that group of players.

4 So glad I followed us down the leagues and, particularly, back up again; my best years supporting Saints, great memories that plastic PL fans will never have.

5 We have turned into a combined shop window and bargain basement, RIP, the night the Southampton Way died.

[ladysaint]

"What the hell happened to Harry Reed? Played well when we saw him, now nowhere near the senior side."

 

We were saying exactly the same last night, if he is not going to play or be on the bench then send the lad out on loan he is not going to progress without playing.

[70's Mike]

with Fonte missing we had no one who had come through the bad times, no cut em and they bleed southampton, no one hungry to impress, sad night, no fight no pride

after the stoke game i was not concerned put it down to bad day at office

am concerned now

[Window Cleaner]

"What the hell happened to Harry Reed? Played well when we saw him, now nowhere near the senior side."

 

We were saying exactly the same last night, if he is not going to play or be on the bench then send the lad out on loan he is not going to progress without playing.

 

If he gets a game it might put Koeman's binky Clasie into the shadows I suspect.*

This is one of Koeman's big problems, he has binkies who get a game no matter what. Remember last year when Pelle couldn't buy a goal and Gallagher was spoken of, Koeman's reaction, we don't need Gallagher,we have enough strikers or something of that ilk. Nothing like boosting a young players confidence levels eh..

[DuncanRG]

1 Watching Saints will forever be a triumph of hope over expectation, after a decent period of growth we appear to be rapidly regressing to the mean.

5 We have turned into a combined shop window and bargain basement, RIP, the night the Southampton Way died.

 

What's the mean? Is sitting 10th in the table, having finished 7th the previous year, a rapid regression? Think you're overdoing it there.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

1. Fitness and sharpness lacking means we cannot execute pressing game which is now a common place in PL.

2. Koemans tactics have been dreadful last 3 games especially Stoke and Liverpool. Poor substitutions and tactics deployed.

3. Steklenburg is better than Davis and Gazza as in not producing howlers but he rarely produces outstanding saves. Clearly we are way too open defensively but Im not sure he installs much confidence in team.

4. Full backs get exposed. Bertrand hasnt reproduced last seasons form. Defensively been poor in some games. Cedric better than Maya and Martina but that is no benchmark as they are both dross.

5. I can see Koeman reverting back to the 5-3-2 system deployed at Watford and in Denmark. Cant wait

[Window Cleaner]

What's the mean? Is sitting 10th in the table, having finished 7th the previous year, a rapid regression? Think you're overdoing it there.

 

Perhaps he mean's rapid regression year on year from the point when we were 3rd last year.

Just an idea, might not mean that at all..

[The9]

1) Jose Fonte is our most important player. He is our leader, linchpin and the man who organizes our defence and makes us tick. Without him we look weak, vulnerable and lack strength.

2) Stephen Caulker just isn't good enough for the Premier league and his omission from the team to date has been the right call.

3) Our attacking trio of Pelle, Mane and Tadic are fantastic when on top but when the going gets tough their heads drop and they give up.

4) Ryan Bertrand is not a midfielder but one of our most dangerous attacking weapons when coming from deep at full back.

5) Liverpool fans, despite the loss of 'no class' Rogers and the gaining of a manager with outstanding personality have more than proven that they are still ****s.

 

I'd say 1) was more about Caulker than Fonte, and possibly more about how many DMs we play.

2) Difficult for anyone to just get dropped into a side at short notice, probably could do with more games and hasn't played alongside Van Dijk in a match before that I can recall.

3) All I saw was all three of them (especially Mane) busting a gut right to the end to try and make things happen

4) Don't know how you can make those assumptions when the entire team was out of position second half in a bid to pose unexpected problems and chase the game

5) Didn't see them do anything unexpected to be honest.

[Saints foreva]

Alderweireld > Van Dijk

Clyne > Cedric

Schneiderlin > Clasie

[Junior Mullet]

I seem to remember plenty of plaudits when we beat Chelsea and Swansea only a few weeks ago. Three defeats in the trot is carp no denying but we were six unbeaten before that

 

As soon as we hit a bad patch why do people suddenly appear out of the wood work claiming the whole club is going to **** and a disaster zone?

 

OK, perhaps my mention of plaudits was unnecessary. But aside from that one sentence, do you disagree with the more important points that I've raised?

 

I never said the club is going to **** and a disaster zone. I was actually making comments about our football.

[sadoldgit]

If he gets a game it might put Koeman's binky Clasie into the shadows I suspect.*

This is one of Koeman's big problems, he has binkies who get a game no matter what. Remember last year when Pelle couldn't buy a goal and Gallagher was spoken of, Koeman's reaction, we don't need Gallagher,we have enough strikers or something of that ilk. Nothing like boosting a young players confidence levels eh..

 

But what if he is not good enough yet? Shaw and others got their chance because they clearly were.

[Window Cleaner]

But what if he is not good enough yet? Shaw and others got their chance because they clearly were.

 

Well I thought Harry Reed looked pretty competent when he was called upon last year. Perhaps others saw something that I didn't to his detriment. Still do not see what people see in Clasie, run of the mill CM...

[Window Cleaner]

Alderweireld > Van Dijk

Clyne >> Cedric

Schneiderlin >>>> Clasie

 

And there you sum up the club's current policy. Koeman spoke about it himself yesterday (or the day before).

[sandwichsaint]

Don't be mean, you know what I mean.

 

Something like we were in an unnaturally long-term low position when we were in Lge One and we were still below our long term average when we were in the Championship. Last year we rode in the top 4 for a part of the season and had our highest finish in modern times. We were everybody's darling, surely you remember that? We played some great stuff in front of a generally pretty solid defence.

 

Looks to me like we're back to the same old, same old, in 12 short months. The players look unfit, unmotivated, the better ones want out, we will likely finish somewhere between 8th and 14th, we might occasionally bring down a big beast, we will probably take a couple of hits ourselves, I'd say normal service has been resumed.

[sadoldgit]

Well I thought Harry Reed looked pretty competent when he was called upon last year. Perhaps others saw something that I didn't to his detriment. Still do not see what people see in Clasie, run of the mill CM...

 

I agree about Reed, I was thinking more about Gallagher. I still think that we have yet to see the best of Clasie.