Pilchards Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Watching young English talent coming through in the current team. That Pottychino at Spurs has moved Ali, Mason and other careers forward while JWP, Harrison and Taggarts has stalled. I remember how proud we were a couple of seasons ago on how our youngsters would either be playing regularly or sitting on the bench and getting games. I would love a return to those days with a mix of the foreigners we keep bringing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Have to agree, whist just about everything is good, it was great to see so much talent come through and be given a chance. Maybe we were lucky with a few at the same time or maybe the previous manager did a better job of believing and then trusting the young players. Maybe he's proved it at Totthenham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I agree it was nice to see a balance in the mix, but I also think that had Lallana, Shaw, Clyne, Chambers not bailed and Forster & Rodrigues not been injured, then we would regularly be fielding 5/6 English players. Also, our stint in the lower leagues allowed a bit more flexibility in brining your youngsters through, whereas the Premiership does demand more "instant" success. Its a tough balance, but I do agree with your overal premise, even if I can see why we've moved (been forced) away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 You can only bring through youth if they are good enough though. I honestly think most managers will play an academy player if they think they are better than a first teamer. The honest truth though is not to many academy players are good enough to walk into the first team of a PL and I doubt people would be happy if we played academy players just to keep up our image as some sort of England football factory of youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Poch can be credited with bringing through Chambers but all the others had already established themselves in the first team, or the first team squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Poch can be credited with bringing through Chambers but all the others had already established themselves in the first team, or the first team squad. agree. you have to have the players good enough. Shaw etc were certainly that. Less so anyone we have currently one thing though, Poch did get the most out of them. something that has not happened really since they have moved on and something he appears to be repeating at spurs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilchards Posted 23 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 23 November, 2015 You can only bring through youth if they are good enough though. I honestly think most managers will play an academy player if they think they are better than a first teamer. The honest truth though is not to many academy players are good enough to walk into the first team of a PL and I doubt people would be happy if we played academy players just to keep up our image as some sort of England football factory of youth. That Harrison Reed could of been the new Ali for us just like that guy is for Spurs and England. A couple of years ago he was showing great promise for the first eleven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Poch can be credited with bringing through Chambers but all the others had already established themselves in the first team, or the first team squad. I think the last part of that is correct as in the squad. MP had the faith to actually bring them on. Sadly that does not seem to be the case now. I don't know if the background staff has changed and so the quality of coaching and giving the players belief is the same. You see the Spurs players coming in as strong athletic types, and then you see ours that look like the still carry a satchel. Our Acadamy has been superb but sadly the conveyor belt has broken down. There are many factors of course but let's hope the talent spotters have not left the building Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Bringing players through is one thing (and it's arguably not even the most important thing); it's about getting the best out of players -and with the likes of Lallana and Jrod, the transformation was almost night and day. Have no doubts that had MP still been around, we wouldn't have gone the back end of last season, playing Toby out of position as a DM rather than giving Reed a run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 You could say that it'd be nicer to have our own products sitting on the bench, getting an occasional run out than Juanmi, Caulker and Martina, but I assume these were all brought in as realistic challengers for the first team and they just haven't worked out so far. In Koeman's defence, I think he would be playing Shaw, Chambers, Lallana etc if they were available to him and he does use JWP and has used Targett. We'd all be surprised if Reed were getting picked ahead of Clasie or Wanyama and would you really drop VvD or Fonte for one of our young defenders? When another player is ready, they'll come through. We've just sold the best of the recent crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 You could say that it'd be nicer to have our own products sitting on the bench, getting an occasional run out than Juanmi, Caulker and Martina, but I assume these were all brought in as realistic challengers for the first team and they just haven't worked out so far. In Koeman's defence, I think he would be playing Shaw, Chambers, Lallana etc if they were available to him and he does use JWP and has used Targett. We'd all be surprised if Reed were getting picked ahead of Clasie or Wanyams and would you really drop VvD or Fonte for one of our young defenders? When another player is ready, they'll come through. We've just sold the best of the recent crop. I don't remember Clasie being here last season, though I do remember Toby being played badly out of position and Yoshida stepping in when we had an injury crisis at DM. Are you telling me that was obviously preferable to letting Toby continue to excel at CB and giving Reed a run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Could argue Poch went to Spurs with a clear remit to have a clearout, develop a way of playing and philosophy and I'm sure there is the intention of him building something there over 5 years or so. Saints had just come off the back of losing a number of good players from the heart of the team, were labelled relegation certainties in some quarters and had a Manager who hadn't managed in the PL before. Koeman was and is managing with a view on today as he knows he won't be here in 3, 4 or 5 years whereas Pochettino has a slightly different remit. We have a number of players in or strongly approaching their peaks, like Forster, Fonte, Bertrand, Davis, Tadic, Pelle etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I think the last part of that is correct as in the squad. MP had the faith to actually bring them on. Sadly that does not seem to be the case now. I don't know if the background staff has changed and so the quality of coaching and giving the players belief is the same. You see the Spurs players coming in as strong athletic types, and then you see ours that look like the still carry a satchel. Our Acadamy has been superb but sadly the conveyor belt has broken down. There are many factors of course but let's hope the talent spotters have not left the building The conveyor belt has broken down? Just for the record, how many Premier League standard players are you expecting to come through each year? Which players that you think MP brought on wouldn't get a good chance under Koeman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Personally think Harry Reed should have had much more of a chance and the signing of Romeu must have been a kick in the teeth for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Personally think Harry Reed should have had much more of a chance and the signing of Romeu must have been a kick in the teeth for him. I think Reed has been unfortunate, but Romeu v Reed isn't the right comparison. We needed a physical alternative to Wanyama in defensive midfield, none of our other players, including Reed could offer that, so another player needed to be brought in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I think Reed has been unfortunate, but Romeu v Reed isn't the right comparison. We needed a physical alternative to Wanyama in defensive midfield, none of our other players, including Reed could offer that, so another player needed to be brought in. Romeu is more physical by virtue of his size I agree, but Reed puts it about too. Romeu is the better player right now but I always thought we would give young players a chance to develop in the first team and that was our big 'thing'. We've done it with JWP despite so many nothing performances I don't see why we wouldn't do it with Reed and saved ourselves £5m and bigger wages on Romeu. I can certainly think of other places in the team that £5m would have been better utilised right now (though a part of that is benefit of hindsight and all that). I think Reed has shown more than enough that he can contribute in the middle of the park for us - and I am sure he could have done it to the degree Romeu has thus far this season. Of course I am presuming Romeu is the finished article - if he goes on to get far better then my point is redundant. But I don't see it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 That Harrison Reed could of been the new Ali for us just like that guy is for Spurs and England. A couple of years ago he was showing great promise for the first eleven. Probably because Pochettino seems to know how to get the best out of players and Koeman has a dutch fixation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Romeu is more physical by virtue of his size I agree, but Reed puts it about too. Romeu is the better player right now but I always thought we would give young players a chance to develop in the first team and that was our big 'thing'. We've done it with JWP despite so many nothing performances I don't see why we wouldn't do it with Reed and saved ourselves £5m and bigger wages on Romeu. I can certainly think of other places in the team that £5m would have been better utilised right now (though a part of that is benefit of hindsight and all that). I think Reed has shown more than enough that he can contribute in the middle of the park for us - and I am sure he could have done it to the degree Romeu has thus far this season. Of course I am presuming Romeu is the finished article - if he goes on to get far better then my point is redundant. But I don't see it myself. Because you want he option of height from at least one of our central midfielders, it makes sense. The fact that JWP gets plenty of opportunity to develop shows that there is that opportunity for young players still. The club get stick both ways - plenty moan about JWP playing so much, now we should be giving more young players the chance to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Because you want he option of height from at least one of our central midfielders, it makes sense. The fact that JWP gets plenty of opportunity to develop shows that there is that opportunity for young players still. The club get stick both ways - plenty moan about JWP playing so much, now we should be giving more young players the chance to develop. I'm not giving the club stick for giving JWP all the chance in the world to develop, I just also want to see Reed given some sort of a chance as well. It's not clear to me why one is getting a chance and the other not. There is probably a good reason, but for me it's not evident for any reason on the pitch that I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I think people need to look past the club marketing. Our academy is important and run well but I can't see the club forcing our managers to play academy players they don't rate just for show. Only two reasons managers play academy players either they're one of those rare players good enough to walk in to a PL first team at a young age or because circumstances give them no choice. Despite the clubs PR we aren't going to be turning out PL standard youngsters every year. We will get through plenty of good but not good enough academy players while we are finding the really good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I'm not giving the club stick for giving JWP all the chance in the world to develop' date=' I just also want to see Reed given some sort of a chance as well. It's not clear to me why one is getting a chance and the other not. There is probably a good reason, but for me it's not evident for any reason on the pitch that I have seen.[/quote'] Wasn't there some rumours on here recently about Reeds off pitch behaviour holding him back .....to much alleged partying or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I'm not giving the club stick for giving JWP all the chance in the world to develop' date=' I just also want to see Reed given some sort of a chance as well. It's not clear to me why one is getting a chance and the other not. There is probably a good reason, but for me it's not evident for any reason on the pitch that I have seen.[/quote'] But the suggestion on this thread is that there is some great shift in policy from the club, Koeman's approach v MP's, when that's clearly not the case. I'd have given Reed a few more run outs, but I'd also have tried to use Ramirez more, but that's just the manager's selection choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I think Poch has been lucky to an extent that he had an excellent batch of young players both here and at Spurs. I don't think he would be able to get any more than Koeman out of Reed or Targett. Indeed Koeman was forced to play Targett at the start of this season and he looked a long way from being ready. Just look at JWP who made his debut under Adkins but hasn't looked noticably better under any of the three managers he's played for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Let's not forget that Hesketh was given his debut by Koeman. Had he not got injured perhaps he would have had a longer stint in the first team. Seager's been on the bench this season and hopefully we will see him at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I think Poch has been lucky to an extent that he had an excellent batch of young players both here and at Spurs. I don't think he would be able to get any more than Koeman out of Reed or Targett. Indeed Koeman was forced to play Targett at the start of this season and he looked a long way from being ready. Just look at JWP who made his debut under Adkins but hasn't looked noticably better under any of the three managers he's played for. Actually thought JWP had his best games under MP - the 1-1 away at the Britannia was probably his best game in a Saints shirt. Saying that, MP never really committed to JWP and often used him to fill different gaps in the side, even as a RB on an occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Actually thought JWP had his best games under MP - the 1-1 away at the Britannia was probably his best game in a Saints shirt. Saying that, MP never really committed to JWP and often used him to fill different gaps in the side, even as a RB on an occasion. I remember MP subbing him before half time on two occasions as well although I do think that he found a pretty effective role for him when he played him on the right hand side and he sat a little deeper, linking with and covering for Clyne who was providing the width at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I remember MP subbing him before half time on two occasions as well although I do think that he found a pretty effective role for him when he played him on the right hand side and he sat a little deeper, linking with and covering for Clyne who was providing the width at the time. Yep. RK played him out there to good effect against United (at least, till the whole side went off the boil) and you'd think Cedric would complement him better than Yoshida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 (edited) As for the talent MP is working with at Spurs, he's lucky to have inherited a few gems, though he's also recruited smartly (e.g. Dier and Alli) without breaking the bank, given chances to players (e.g. Mason) who look pretty average and got the best out of the likes of Rose. Edited 23 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Poch can be credited with bringing through Chambers but all the others had already established themselves in the first team, or the first team squad. Yeah but he stuck with them and aided there development. I know he's universally hated by our fans but nobody can deny the fact that he has a good pedigree at spotting young talent and blooding them into the first team. He's did it with Espanyol, us and now he's doing it at Spurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 As for the talent MP is working with at Spurs, he's lucky to have inherited a few gems, though he's also recruited smartly (e.g. Dier and Alli) without breaking the bank and also given chances to players (e.g. Mason) who look pretty average and got the best out of the likes of Rose. Don't know that you need to be particularly special to do well in a Pochettino system. You need to give 100% and do whatever it is that you're asked to do. Violin players and soldiers and all that.. Probably why JRod looked so good at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Funny how things change so quickly, it was only a couple of seasons ago that the press kept banging on about Hodgson's 'season ticket at St Mary's' now we just have Bertrand as the token Englishman while Uncle Woy sets up shop at WHL keeping an eye on Walker, Dier, Alli, Mason and Kane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Yeah but he stuck with them and aided there development. I know he's universally hated by our fans but nobody can deny the fact that he has a good pedigree at spotting young talent and blooding them into the first team. He's did it with Espanyol, us and now he's doing it at Spurs. Who exactly did he spot though? Shaw and Lallana were already starting most games by the time he was appointed. JWP was largely used as a sub and remained so for the majority of Poch's tenure. Players like Gallagher and Reed made fleeting appearances with no real impression on the first team. The only young player to come through and become a first team semi-regular was Chambers, who we'd all known was a talented player long before Poch was appointed. Even so, he was an unused sub in Poch's last 4 games in charge I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Yeah but he stuck with them and aided there development. I know he's universally hated by our fans but nobody can deny the fact that he has a good pedigree at spotting young talent and blooding them into the first team. He's did it with Espanyol, us and now he's doing it at Spurs. Which young talent, apart from Chambers, did he spot and blood with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Which young talent, apart from Chambers, did he spot and blood with us? he got the best out of them. that is for sure. Something they are not really getting elsewhere under different managers None of those who left have looked anywhere as good as they did with us and brought about the top clubs wanting them he did it in Spain, did it with us and is doing it at spurs. not many would have thought a central midfield of Dier and League 1 Alli would be so dominant. sure, there are other factors but i very much doubt it is just a coincidence he was lucky he had a great crop here. Including lambert and rodrigues..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Which young talent, apart from Chambers, did he spot and blood with us? Maybe you should read my response again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Maybe you should read my response again?? I've re-read it, the query still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Funny how things change so quickly, it was only a couple of seasons ago that the press kept banging on about Hodgson's 'season ticket at St Mary's' now we just have Bertrand as the token Englishman while Uncle Woy sets up shop at WHL keeping an eye on Walker, Dier, Alli, Mason and Kane. Look on the bright side, at least we don't have to worry about "big clubs" poaching our young talent as much now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 he got the best out of them. that is for sure. Something they are not really getting elsewhere under different managers None of those who left have looked anywhere as good as they did with us and brought about the top clubs wanting them he did it in Spain, did it with us and is doing it at spurs. not many would have thought a central midfield of Dier and League 1 Alli would be so dominant. sure, there are other factors but i very much doubt it is just a coincidence he was lucky he had a great crop here. Including lambert and rodrigues..... No-one has said he didn't get the best out of them or that he's not a good manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I've re-read it, the query still stands. Our young English players under Poch were mostly already in and around the first team but like I've said, he stuck with them and brought them on a bit. The youngest team in the league that year was us and spurs I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 he got the best out of them. that is for sure. Something they are not really getting elsewhere under different managers None of those who left have looked anywhere as good as they did with us and brought about the top clubs wanting them he did it in Spain, did it with us and is doing it at spurs. not many would have thought a central midfield of Dier and League 1 Alli would be so dominant. sure, there are other factors but i very much doubt it is just a coincidence he was lucky he had a great crop here. Including lambert and rodrigues..... Yep. Lallana went from a player many on here were calling to be dropped to one we fleeced Liverpool for £25m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Our young English players under Poch were mostly already in and around the first team but like I've said, he stuck with them and brought them on a bit. The youngest team in the league that year was us and spurs I believe. You haven't answered my question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 No-one has said he didn't get the best out of them or that he's not a good manager. I believe Reed would be a good fixture in the first team had he still be here. maybe one or two others being closer to the first 11 than they are now. who knows. We have a good manager now with a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I believe Reed would be a good fixture in the first team had he still be here. maybe one or two others being closer to the first 11 than they are now. who knows. We have a good manager now with a different way. Who would you play Reed in place of? Which of our current young players do you think should be getting more first team action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Who would you play Reed in place of? Which of our current young players do you think should be getting more first team action? I would have had Reed instead of Romeu. and as for the others, god knows. Maybe one of Stephens/McCarthy in place of the pointless Martina?? that is looking at it now but I doubt many thought Eric Dier would have been brilliant in CM for club and probably, soon to be country let alone paired with Alli. who was league 1 last season. like I said, we will never know. different managers bring on players differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Interesting no-one is discussing Mitchell and the black box and only talking about the players in the team. I have no idea how long Alli and Mason were at the club (I know for Dier - and Yedlin who's on loan at Sunderland) but is it a coincidence that their younger players are coming through now they (presumably) have a joined up approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Interesting no-one is discussing Mitchell and the black box and only talking about the players in the team. I have no idea how long Alli and Mason were at the club (I know for Dier - and Yedlin who's on loan at Sunderland) but is it a coincidence that their younger players are coming through now they (presumably) have a joined up approach? Alli was signed from Milton Keynes a few months back I think, 6 million £ rings a bell, probably a Mitchell influenced signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 Yep. Lallana went from a player many on here were calling to be dropped to one we fleeced Liverpool for £25m. I wouldn't say he looked noticeably better after Poch's appointment though. In our first season in the Prem he looked no better playing under Poch than he did under Adkins. He proved through League 1 and the Championship, I think it just took him a season to get to grips with the pace of the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 I would have had Reed instead of Romeu. and as for the others, god knows. Maybe one of Stephens/McCarthy in place of the pointless Martina?? that is looking at it now but I doubt many thought Eric Dier would have been brilliant in CM for club and probably, soon to be country let alone paired with Alli. who was league 1 last season. like I said, we will never know. different managers bring on players differently. So if Wanyama was out injured/suspended and we wanted a physical presence in midfield. you'd be happy with Reed & Clasie as a partnership? And apart from that, no other suggestions. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 What would we prefer? A team full of "our own" that struggled in the Premiership and maybe got relegated, or a team of mostly imported players who challenged for honours? It is great to see young players coming through who are good enough to compete at the highest level but I am sure we all remember the likes of McGoldrick etc who were mostly Championship standard at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 November, 2015 Share Posted 23 November, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't say he looked noticeably better after Poch's appointment though. In our first season in the Prem he looked no better playing under Poch than he did under Adkins. He proved through League 1 and the Championship, I think it just took him a season to get to grips with the pace of the Premier League. Nah- don't buy that. He initially looked pretty good under Poch -at least IMO- but then got injured (if you'll recall). But the specifics are moot: players take time to settle with new managers. You just have to look at his subsequent career at Liverpool, despite having another season of experience under his belt and playing alongside better players. Admittedly, there are many reasons why he hasn't hit the same heights; but MP's ability to get the best out of him, both individually and as part of a system, figures highly. Still fill your boots if you think Lallana would have progressed the same had Adkins stayed on Edited 23 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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