Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[Sour Mash]

Define 'many'

The current Muslim population of 44 million. By 2030 it is projected to be about 60 million. That is in a total population in Europe of about 750 million. So, no biggie really and I'm not too bothered about it. I know and work with several Muslims and they're all fine. I work internationally with Muslims across Europe and the world and they're all fine. My kids have Muslim friends at school and they and they're parents are lovely people. So, based on my personal experience, I have no worries.

 

How about you? Are you quaking in your boots.

 

In any case, it is just demographic change, isn't it? What on earth would you 'do' about it? Stopping immigration isn't going to change much as we have a settled Muslim population. In fact, apart from kerbing immigration, I'd be interested in what you'd 'do' to stop the 'spread' of the Muslim population.

You're not too bothered about importing a culture that inflicts murder and terror across western Europe, in fact you think its a good thing. All from that muslim hotbed of Bath North-East Somerset Mental.

[sadoldgit]

Strange that he's not been named. I'm sure if he was Bob Smith from Cornwall, he would have been.

 

 

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He has been named now. As the police chief said yesterday they were holding back his name for operational reasons.

[Sour Mash]

One in Belgium now, Mohammad R . Doubt it's got anything to do with Islam though

 

 

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Just a weekly event in Europe now. And some on here actually want to import more of it and see it as a price worth paying for glorious multi-culturalism. Mental.

[whelk]

Just a weekly event in Europe now. And some on here actually want to import more of it and see it as a price worth paying for glorious multi-culturalism. Mental.

 

Coming back to the thread and sounding like a scratched record.

 

Can we expect endless brief questions showing you to be really smart?

 

And it isn't a weekly event is it?

[Sour Mash]

Coming back to the thread and sounding like a scratched record.

 

Can we expect endless brief questions showing you to be really smart?

 

And it isn't a weekly event is it?

 

Fair enough, change that to 'twice weekly' event.

[aintforever]

I think its almost impossible but is anyone really that alone with terrorist acts such as yesterday - I would imagine most have accomplices/cells/groups that are aware of them. Stopping them as I say almost impossible really how do you stop someone crashing into crowds of people?

 

I dunno, I think at best these sort of lone wolf attackers would have friends/associates who notice they have been acting weird or showing extreme views. Or contacts online with similar views. I doubt they are often part of any organised cell or group.

 

The only way to try and combat it would be to have better links within the community, better surveillance online and more powers to detain people for extremist/ hate crimes. More armed police is a no brainer after what happened yesterday.

Edited 23 March, 2017 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

The only way i believe this will be solved is from within the Islamic community - there is nothing the western world will be able to do to stop these extremists.

I think it will need Muslims to stand up against IS and prevent them doing in the name of Islam.

Yep but I'm not sure how that can happen when some of the public won't even accept that it's a problem coming from within the Islamic religion.

[Jonnyboy]

Yep but I'm not sure how that can happen when some of the public won't even accept that it's a problem coming from within the Islamic religion.

 

Bit of a contradiction.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're right, nothing to do with Islam, everything to do with hatred and a murderous outlook - which is not Islam.

 

Methodists, Scientologists, Hindus, maybe Sikhs. Certainly nothing to do with Islam

 

 

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[Give it to Ron]

Yep but I'm not sure how that can happen when some of the public won't even accept that it's a problem coming from within the Islamic religion.

 

They do though as the first thing ITV did was roll out the head of Muslims in U.K. Who made it quite clear where they stood.

Whether that means they trust the western world enough to help I didn't get that impression but as I said to me it needs them to hep end IS .

 

 

 

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[Turkish]

Define 'many'

The current Muslim population of 44 million. By 2030 it is projected to be about 60 million. That is in a total population in Europe of about 750 million. So, no biggie really and I'm not too bothered about it. I know and work with several Muslims and they're all fine. I work internationally with Muslims across Europe and the world and they're all fine. My kids have Muslim friends at school and they and they're parents are lovely people. So, based on my personal experience, I have no worries.

 

How about you? Are you quaking in your boots.

 

In any case, it is just demographic change, isn't it? What on earth would you 'do' about it? Stopping immigration isn't going to change much as we have a settled Muslim population. In fact, apart from kerbing immigration, I'd be interested in what you'd 'do' to stop the 'spread' of the Muslim population.

 

I'm sure Khalid Mahmoods pupils all thought he was "fine" as well.

[hypochondriac]

Lots of people saying this bloke was not a Muslim. What I want to know is at what point did he stop becoming one? The moment he killed someone? If so I'm concerned by the amount of ex Muslims in recent years who have only announced their apostasy by killing and maiming other people.

[Sour Mash]

And predominantly muslim gangs still operating across our northern towns/cities. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4344284/Twenty-seven-men-charged-dozens-sex-offences.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK

[Special K]

That isn't what I mean at all. Anyone who thinks that every Muslim is a terrorist is frankly an idiot. I am married to someone from an Islamic background where most of her family are Muslims so I know more than most that not every person is a terrorist (though why you feel this needs repeating for the billionth time I have no idea.) When someone wants to have an honest discussion about the problem with Islamic extremism and how it can be combated in the West and within Islamic communities then most of the time they are accused of Islamaphobia, called racists and mindless comparisons are brought out about the crusades, christian Nazis and the KKK from 50 years ago which is the equivalent to sticking fingers in ears and humming loudly.

 

Frankly you have simply not read the thread if you believe there is not a denial from many about this problem which I and others believe amounts to an apologist attitude. Radical Islamic terror- particularly the kind exported over the last 20 years is a real problem that needs to be urgently tackled in the West and in the Islamic community. Many will not even admit there is a problem.

 

Please point me in the direction of anyone who is an "apologist" for the events of this week, who isn't already radicalised?

Else, define what you mean by apologist?

[hypochondriac]

Please point me in the direction of anyone who is an "apologist" for the events of this week, who isn't already radicalised?

Else, define what you mean by apologist?

I never claimed there were any apologists for this specific event, rather I said there has been a denial and downplaying of the problem and a refusal to address where the issues stem from on this thread which amounts to apologism. That has been addressed throughout the entire thread and the funny thing is that if it were accepted in wider socoety that the Muslim community need to take their share of responsibility for sorting this out then the problem would be reduced much quicker in my opinion.

 

People are paralysed by political correctness and the desire not to be seen as racist so very little gets done. If I were a religious person and weekly atrocities were being committed in the name of my religion and my community then I would be demanding that something was done, I would be personally affronted that this was happening and look to work with the authorities in whatever way I can to report anyone I had suspicions about and drive this extremist element out of my life and community. There are some Muslims who have sought to do this but you only have to listen to the radio phone in shows today and on previous occasions and on Twitter etc to see the number who want to deny the link exists or who think acts like this are in some way justified. No doubt there are a number of peaceful and lovely 'Muslims' who clearly pick and choose what they want to believe from the Qaran (some would argue this makes them inoslamic), but you will find that even then according to stats a majority of Muslims in Britain have some absolutely abhorrent views about gay people, Jewish people or minorities (my father in law and the rest of his community for instance would not have accepted my wife's brother if he were gay or if anyone in the family had married a black person.)

 

It's undeniable that the Islamic religion has a problem with extremism that it needs to address, along with more moderate groups who need to admit the problem and propose rational ideas for fighting it otherwise the far right is unfortunately going to become more popular as they are currently the only ones unafraid about political correctness and the only ones discussing this issue and giving people a voice. I don't think any sane person wants the likes of Tommy Robinson screaming about terrorism immediately following an attack but if this problem refuses to be addressed sensibly by mainstream society then this is only going to happen more. It's a similar thing with Brexit where people were sick of their valid concerns being ignored or being caricatured as racists and xenophobes.

Edited 24 March, 2017 by hypochondriac

[Gemmel]

This is good to see

 

[hypochondriac]

This is good to see

 

Indeed it is. Responses like this should be applauded and seeds like this should be cultivated throughout Islamic society.

[buctootim]

Lots of people saying this bloke was not a Muslim. What I want to know is at what point did he stop becoming one? The moment he killed someone? If so I'm concerned by the amount of ex Muslims in recent years who have only announced their apostasy by killing and maiming other people.

 

What makes you think he ever was? He was supposedly a Christian for most of his life when he was committing GBH and knife offences. Is that consistent with being a Christian or is it in name only? There is a difference between cloaking yourself in religion and being religious. Why do you think it is that nearly all the terrorists involved in attacks in Europe in the past 5 years or so have long criminal records - usually for violence and drugs - and a history of disaffection. Imams or Islamic scholars aren't doing this.

Edited 24 March, 2017 by buctootim

[hypochondriac]

What makes you think he ever was? He was supposedly a Christian for most of his life when he was committing GBH and knife offences. Is that consistent with being a Christian or is it in name only?

So the Islamic religion can absolve itself of any responsibility at all by claiming that every single terrorist attack committed by a 'Muslim' is actually not committed by a Muslim and actually they were never Muslims at any point. How many attacks can be purportrated by these individuals before we question that narrative?

[buctootim]

So the Islamic religion can absolve itself of any responsibility at all by claiming that every single terrorist attack committed by a 'Muslim' is actually not committed by a Muslim and actually they were never Muslims at any point. How many attacks can be purportrated by these individuals before we question that narrative?

 

Seriously? straw men at this stage. You're capable of better, why not actually respond to the question?

[hypochondriac]

A very interesting call yesterday on LBC from a practising Muslim who was urging his fellow Muslims in Britain to do more to reject the influence of IS and lamenting the lack of action from their community. Difficult to argue with what he said.

Edited 24 March, 2017 by hypochondriac

[buctootim]

A very interesting call yesterday on LBC from a practising Muslim who was urging his fellow Muslims in Britain to do more to reject the influence of IS and lamenting the lack of action from their community.

 

I wouldnt disagree with that. There is always more they can do to 'own' the 'real' religion. Scholars across the different sects and traditions (Shi-ite, Sunni etc) should explain more widely what Islam is about and how IS ideology falls outside that. However just as culpable are us - the people who allow the Saudis to disseminate Whabbism

[hypochondriac]

Seriously? straw men at this stage. You're capable of better, why not actually respond to the question?

Even if we were to assume your suggestion that he never was a Muslim is correct, do you not agree that the religion still has a huge problem as it seems to attract thousands of non Muslims who commit atrocities in its name? I don't really care if we want to call any of these terrorists Muslim or not (the Muslim caller claimed yesterday only God would know that for certain), what I do care about is that certain people, organisations and teachings within the religion are committing terrorist acts and it needs the assistance of the majority of Muslims from the West in order to combat it effectively.

[hypochondriac]

I wouldnt disagree with that. There is always more they can do to 'own' the 'real' religion. Scholars across the different sects and traditions (Shi-ite, Sunni etc) should explain more widely what Islam is about and how IS ideology falls outside that. However just as culpable are us - the people who allow the Saudis to disseminate Whabbism

Britain and the west in general could absolutely do more and that's what I think partly this populism thing is all about - standing up in defence of western values and being more confident about promoting the positive aspects of the West and rejecting regressive doctrine even in the face of claims of racism and Islamaphobia. Standing up to the Saudis is always going to be more difficult due to the power they wield but I would hope there could be some sort of concerted effort along with the effort from the Islamic community itself which I have already outlined.

[LGTL]

Some of the arguments here are obsolete. He was British born and previously called Adrian, and had as much right to be here as you or I (unfortunately). No amount of border control would have stopped this. It's how we stop normal people turning into radicalised nutters that is the question to be answered.

[Bath Saint]

You're not too bothered about importing a culture that inflicts murder and terror across western Europe, in fact you think its a good thing. All from that muslim hotbed of Bath North-East Somerset Mental.

 

Yes, I'd be bothered about importing that type of culture, but I don't think we are. In any case, Adrian Elms (yep, that was his name) from Kent acted in a hate-filled, murderous way. He wasn't 'imported'.

 

So, let's say all Muslims are refused entry to Europe. We ban anyone who identifies with the Muslim faith. All banned. No ifs and buts. So, what do we 'do' about it? We're still left with 2.7 million Muslims in Britain. According to you they are ALL guilty of following a murderous culture. ALL of them. Men, women and children. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, police. All of them. Yes? Is that right? All 2.7 million of them. Correct?

 

So, what do we 'do' about them? Your turn to answer the question.

[hypochondriac]

Some of the arguments here are obsolete. He was British born and previously called Adrian, and had as much right to be here as you or I (unfortunately). No amount of border control would have stopped this. It's how we stop normal people turning into radicalised nutters that is the question to be answered.

Only Sour Mash has made that argument recently on here. Not only would his solution be ineffective for the reasons you have described, it is also likely to create even greater anger towards the west. I'm not necessarily against greater immigration checks as long as it's proven to be a sensible and proportionate measure but as you said, the real issues need to be combated from within the Islamic community and that needs to be initiated by the community itself.

[buctootim]

Strange that he's not been named. I'm sure if he was Bob Smith from Cornwall, he would have been.

 

Adrian Elms from Kent. Happy now?

[buctootim]

Some of the arguments here are obsolete. He was British born and previously called Adrian, and had as much right to be here as you or I (unfortunately). No amount of border control would have stopped this. It's how we stop normal people turning into radicalised nutters that is the question to be answered.

 

This report is worth a read

http://icsr.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ICSR-Report-Criminal-Pasts-Terrorist-Futures-European-Jihadists-and-the-New-Crime-Terror-Nexus.pdf

[shurlock]

Adrian Elms from Kent. Happy now?

 

Not white enough for LD

[Sour Mash]

Some of the arguments here are obsolete. He was British born and previously called Adrian, and had as much right to be here as you or I (unfortunately). No amount of border control would have stopped this. It's how we stop normal people turning into radicalised nutters that is the question to be answered.

 

Yes, I'd be bothered about importing that type of culture, but I don't think we are. In any case, Adrian Elms (yep, that was his name) from Kent acted in a hate-filled, murderous way. He wasn't 'imported'.

 

So, let's say all Muslims are refused entry to Europe. We ban anyone who identifies with the Muslim faith. All banned. No ifs and buts. So, what do we 'do' about it? We're still left with 2.7 million Muslims in Britain. According to you they are ALL guilty of following a murderous culture. ALL of them. Men, women and children. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, police. All of them. Yes? Is that right? All 2.7 million of them. Correct?

 

So, what do we 'do' about them? Your turn to answer the question.

Please tell me you're not being serious? Who do you think radicalised and motivated him? What do you think he was chatting about with the lads down the mosque every Friday? You don't get radicalised individuals without muslim immigration. You want muslim immigration, you're partly responsible for bringing this to our shores.

[SKD]

Please tell me you're not being serious? Who do you think radicalised and motivated him? What do you think he was chatting about with the lads down the mosque every Friday? You don't get radicalised individuals without muslim immigration. You want muslim immigration, you're partly responsible for bringing this to our shores.

 

Ignore them mate, there's no reasoning with these people.

 

I've no doubt that those stating that Islamic immigration is not the problem are those tarring all England fans with the same brush.

 

I can't be bothered to read back through, but I'd be interested to see the views of that idiot who was promoting anti Israel demonstrations at the be'er sheva game. One suspects he is not assuming all Muslims are responsable for a minorties actions as he was with the Israelis. (May I add not my view just pointing out his stupidity, IMO of course).

[benjii]

I never claimed there were any apologists for this specific event, rather I said there has been a denial and downplaying of the problem and a refusal to address where the issues stem from on this thread which amounts to apologism. That has been addressed throughout the entire thread and the funny thing is that if it were accepted in wider socoety that the Muslim community need to take their share of responsibility for sorting this out then the problem would be reduced much quicker in my opinion.

 

People are paralysed by political correctness and the desire not to be seen as racist so very little gets done. If I were a religious person and weekly atrocities were being committed in the name of my religion and my community then I would be demanding that something was done, I would be personally affronted that this was happening and look to work with the authorities in whatever way I can to report anyone I had suspicions about and drive this extremist element out of my life and community. There are some Muslims who have sought to do this but you only have to listen to the radio phone in shows today and on previous occasions and on Twitter etc to see the number who want to deny the link exists or who think acts like this are in some way justified. No doubt there are a number of peaceful and lovely 'Muslims' who clearly pick and choose what they want to believe from the Qaran (some would argue this makes them inoslamic), but you will find that even then according to stats a majority of Muslims in Britain have some absolutely abhorrent views about gay people, Jewish people or minorities (my father in law and the rest of his community for instance would not have accepted my wife's brother if he were gay or if anyone in the family had married a black person.)

 

It's undeniable that the Islamic religion has a problem with extremism that it needs to address, along with more moderate groups who need to admit the problem and propose rational ideas for fighting it otherwise the far right is unfortunately going to become more popular as they are currently the only ones unafraid about political correctness and the only ones discussing this issue and giving people a voice. I don't think any sane person wants the likes of Tommy Robinson screaming about terrorism immediately following an attack but if this problem refuses to be addressed sensibly by mainstream society then this is only going to happen more. It's a similar thing with Brexit where people were sick of their valid concerns being ignored or being caricatured as racists and xenophobes.

 

Frankly, I suspect that's ********. You would probably be annoyed / concerned but I doubt you'd actually do anything, particularly if you were embedded in a community with a strong sense of hierarchy and tradition.

 

As someone else said, above, it's the community leaders who really need to take the lead on these sorts of things. "Rank and file", for want of a better phrase, Muslims mostly just want to get on with their lives, same as everyone else.

Edited 24 March, 2017 by benjii

[shurlock]

Frankly, I suspect that's ********. You would probably be annoyed / concerned but I doubt you'd actually do anything, particularly if you were embedded in a community with a strong sense of hierarchy and tradition.

 

As someone else said, above, it's the community leaders who really need to take the lead on these sorts of things. "Rank and file", for want of a better phrase, Muslims mostly just want to get on with their lives, same as everyone else.

 

Absolutely - ironic this is being spouted by the biggest sheep on here.

[whelk]

A very interesting call yesterday on LBC from a practising Muslim who was urging his fellow Muslims in Britain to do more to reject the influence of IS and lamenting the lack of action from their community. Difficult to argue with what he said.

 

If only IS would start putting out cartoons of Mohammed they'd soon be flushed out.

[whelk]

Only Sour Mash has made that argument recently on here. Not only would his solution be ineffective for the reasons you have described, it is also likely to create even greater anger towards the west. I'm not necessarily against greater immigration checks as long as it's proven to be a sensible and proportionate measure but as you said, the real issues need to be combated from within the Islamic community and that needs to be initiated by the community itself.

 

Jonnyboy suggested a wall at Dover but TBF to him I think Trump maybe unduly influencing him

[whelk]

I'm not sure what the press are doing with this story.

 

Daily Mail getting excitable about using internet to find a manual on how to drive a car on the pavement and blaming Google

 

Star calling him a fat bald loser - no doubt resonates with their readership

 

Express - probably arctic snap or something about arthritis/dementia but haven't checked

[whelk]

And predominantly muslim gangs still operating across our northern towns/cities. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4344284/Twenty-seven-men-charged-dozens-sex-offences.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK

 

A far bigger problem than people are willing to accept. Again fear of being screamed at for being a racist especially form social workers rather than acknowledging culturally something is very wrong. Only only someone with an anti-muslim agenda would be trying to uncover and what about the Yorkshire Ripper

Loathed as I am to promote Sour Mash's hate.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Adrian Elms from Kent. Happy now?

 

Did you still call the recently deceased "greatest" Cassius Clay?

 

How does calling Muslim converts by their original name fit in with your leftie agenda? Personally I'd allow and use their chosen name, why don't you?

 

 

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Edited 24 March, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter

[Special K]

Ignore them mate, there's no reasoning with these people.

 

I've no doubt that those stating that Islamic immigration is not the problem are those tarring all England fans with the same brush.

 

I can't be bothered to read back through, but I'd be interested to see the views of that idiot who was promoting anti Israel demonstrations at the be'er sheva game. One suspects he is not assuming all Muslims are responsable for a minorties actions as he was with the Israelis. (May I add not my view just pointing out his stupidity, IMO of course).

 

Yeah, it wouldn't be on to tar a group of people with one big **** off brush would it?

[buctootim]

Did you still call the recently deceased "greatest" Cassius Clay?

 

How does calling Muslim converts by their original name fit in with your leftie agenda? Personally I'd allow and use their chosen name, why don't you?

 

 

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Ironically enough, according to this muslim site converts should never dishonour their father by using a different name to his.

http://muslimconverts.com/muslimnames/how-a-convert-changes-name.htm

[hypochondriac]

Frankly, I suspect that's ********. You would probably be annoyed / concerned but I doubt you'd actually do anything, particularly if you were embedded in a community with a strong sense of hierarchy and tradition.

 

As someone else said, above, it's the community leaders who really need to take the lead on these sorts of things. "Rank and file", for want of a better phrase, Muslims mostly just want to get on with their lives, same as everyone else.

Everyone has a duty to report terrorism or potential terrorist threats if they believe that sort of thing is happening. I agree that community leaders have a responsibility but so too do others. If Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked as some claim then why has more not been done to counter this perception and smearing of a peaceful religion?

[hypochondriac]

Absolutely - ironic this is being spouted by the biggest sheep on here.

It's an Internet forum you spanner.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Everyone has a duty to report terrorism or potential terrorist threats if they believe that sort of thing is happening. I agree that community leaders have a responsibility but so too do others. If Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked as some claim then why has more not been done to counter this perception and smearing of a peaceful religion?

 

I think that you will find that discreetly the Muslim community is being much more helpful than they are given credit for. That is why so many plots are prevented. I cannot see why our Security services can be so much more successful than on the continent.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The elephant in the room is that certain Muslim practises are against our values . If I made mrs duck cover up before going out, arranged meetings where the chicks couldn't sit with the blokes & was against gay marriage the lefties on here would call me out. Of course if I converted to Islam it would be fine with them

 

 

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[shurlock]

The elephant in the room is that certain Muslim practises are against our values . If I made mrs duck cover up before going out, arranged meetings where the chicks couldn't sit with the blokes & was against gay marriage the lefties on here would call me out. Of course if I converted to Islam it would be fine with them

 

 

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Much like Jewish practice then. No complaints about that. And aren't lefties meant to be antisemites.

[Bath Saint]

Please tell me you're not being serious? Who do you think radicalised and motivated him? What do you think he was chatting about with the lads down the mosque every Friday? You don't get radicalised individuals without muslim immigration. You want muslim immigration, you're partly responsible for bringing this to our shores.

 

That wasn't the question. Let me try again.

 

Assuming we stop ALL Muslim immigration, we are left with approx 2.7 million Muslims in the UK. You seem to regard Islam (which you seem to equate to a culture) as an inherently dangerous religion. So, my question is, what do we do with the 2.7 million Muslims who are currently here (most of them being British)?

[Sour Mash]

Much like Jewish practice then. No complaints about that. And aren't lefties meant to be antisemites.

 

Because there are 10 times the number of muslims in the U.K (and growing). Not difficult to understand.

[Sour Mash]

That wasn't the question. Let me try again.

 

Assuming we stop ALL Muslim immigration, we are left with approx 2.7 million Muslims in the UK. You seem to regard Islam (which you seem to equate to a culture) as an inherently dangerous religion. So, my question is, what do we do with the 2.7 million Muslims who are currently here (most of them being British)?

I've answered this question many times before, there's not much we can do, the damage is done.

 

No answer to any of my questions, still a fan of importing terrorism to Western Europe I see.

[Manuel]

The elephant in the room is that certain Muslim practises are against our values . If I made mrs duck cover up before going out, arranged meetings where the chicks couldn't sit with the blokes & was against gay marriage the lefties on here would call me out. Of course if I converted to Islam it would be fine with them

Sometimes I feel that OUR society is overtly sexualised; tarty soap operas, cross-dressing 'comedy' adverts (I have nothing against cross-dressing itself, but the adverts are distasteful imo), newspapers and mags obsessed with tits and arse and affairs, slutty music videos.

 

We all have different values and tastes. The Muslims you talk about are more conservative than me but in my experience, limited admittedly, the sons and daughters of those conservative Muslims will naturally become closer to our values than their parents, and society moves on together. No real friction.