whelk Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 He was the one that said police shouldn't be allowed to shoot to kill on our streets in the event of a terrorist attack... so will await his condemnation with interest... Good point forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 I will forever be thankful for Channel 4 for giving me the inspiration for the gag I wrote on this thread and hour ago which I think quite frankly is one of the most perfect posts I've ever written. So that's something. I liked your people's princess one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 You mean the same policy we operate with in Iraq, Syria and numerous other countries? Do you have any issues with him getting shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Do you have any issues with him getting shot? No and I highly doubt Corbyn does either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 No and I highly doubt Corbyn does either. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Do you have any issues with him getting shot? Corbyn does. I am still waiting for him to send his condolences to the attackers family. You cant send out condolences to a white Catholic terrorist on one day and not do the same with Asian Muslim terrorist the next. That would make him a racist or even a, God forbid, hypocrite. If he does do it, then he's a ****. So when will the racist/hypocrite/**** (delete as applicable) condemn the shooting??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 (edited) Every time some Islamic nutter does something like this, it just makes the apologists look more ridiculous. Look how many of these attacks there have been over the last few years. It's just shocking. Edited 22 March, 2017 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Every time some Islamic nutter does something like this, it just makes the apologists look more ridiculous. Look how many of these attacks there have been over the last few years. It's just shocking. What should we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 According to reports the Muslim who did this was jailed for 2 years for trying to get to Syria & join Isis. IF this turns out to be true, can everyone agree that had we thrown away the key & jailed him for life these 4 people would still be alive. Maybe there's a lesson to be learnt. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Corbyn does. I am still waiting for him to send his condolences to the attackers family. You cant send out condolences to a white Catholic terrorist on one day and not do the same with Asian Muslim terrorist the next. That would make him a racist or even a, God forbid, hypocrite. If he does do it, then he's a ****. So when will the racist/hypocrite/**** (delete as applicable) condemn the shooting??? I think you'll find a whole range of political figures praised McGuinness hugely, including Teresa May. Bit sick political point scoring when the bodies are still warm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 According to reports the Muslim who did this was jailed for 2 years for trying to get to Syria & join Isis. IF this turns out to be true, can everyone agree that had we thrown away the key & jailed him for life these 4 people would still be alive. Maybe there's a lesson to be learnt. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Would have been better to let him go and tear up the passport. He would have died pretty quick in Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 What should we do? Isn't that what the entire thread has been about? The UK calling out Islamic terrorism for what it is and admitting we have a problem with it would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Isn't that what the entire thread has been about? The UK calling out Islamic terrorism for what it is and admitting we have a problem with it would be a start. Today was terrorism, possibly Islamic. So who's the apologist? Nobody I've ever met condones that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 22 March, 2017 Share Posted 22 March, 2017 Today was terrorism, possibly Islamic. So who's the apologist? Nobody I've ever met condones that. There is normally someone who will come along to this thread preaching it has nothing to do with Islam and educate us all. They obviously will not condone it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 There is normally someone who will come along to this thread preaching it has nothing to do with Islam and educate us all. They obviously will not condone it. We get it. You don't like Muslims and won't be converting anytime soon. What's the big plan then, a wall along the white cliffs of Dover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 We get it. You don't like Muslims and won't be converting anytime soon. What's the big plan then, a wall along the white cliffs of Dover? That's the thing Jonny you don't get it. You want to polarise everything and pigeon hole everyone. I don't dislike Muslims and some are the gentlest people I know. I think Islam is very dangerous though and wish people would stop trying to absolve it from any blame. If Christians had such teaching so at odds with free speech and liberalism in the west I'm sure you'd be on your high horse mocking - no doubt you will retort with something about the KKK and all just as bad. Yet strangely just prefer to shriek islamaphobe at anyone who feels there is a problem. You should watch the latest Bill Maher 'Real Time' - not known for being a right winger but speaks much sense about the default 'liberal' position. Sadly there no easy solution (don't think your wall at Dover is very sensible suggestion) other than to ensure surveillance remains high and that the right wing don't flourish with peddling hate, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 What should we do? Do you think the spread of Islam across western Europe is a good or bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Today was terrorism, possibly Islamic. So who's the apologist? Nobody I've ever met condones that. Read this thread would be my suggestion. It's absolutely packed with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That's the thing Jonny you don't get it. You want to polarise everything and pigeon hole everyone. I don't dislike Muslims and some are the gentlest people I know. I think Islam is very dangerous though and wish people would stop trying to absolve it from any blame. If Christians had such teaching so at odds with free speech and liberalism in the west I'm sure you'd be on your high horse mocking - no doubt you will retort with something about the KKK and all just as bad. Yet strangely just prefer to shriek islamaphobe at anyone who feels there is a problem. You should watch the latest Bill Maher 'Real Time' - not known for being a right winger but speaks much sense about the default 'liberal' position. Sadly there no easy solution (don't think your wall at Dover is very sensible suggestion) other than to ensure surveillance remains high and that the right wing don't flourish with peddling hate, Indeed but what I will say is people sticking their fingers in their ears every time this happens does not help things at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That's the thing Jonny you don't get it. You want to polarise everything and pigeon hole everyone. I don't dislike Muslims and some are the gentlest people I know. I think Islam is very dangerous though and wish people would stop trying to absolve it from any blame. If Christians had such teaching so at odds with free speech and liberalism in the west I'm sure you'd be on your high horse mocking - no doubt you will retort with something about the KKK and all just as bad. Yet strangely just prefer to shriek islamaphobe at anyone who feels there is a problem. You should watch the latest Bill Maher 'Real Time' - not known for being a right winger but speaks much sense about the default 'liberal' position. Sadly there no easy solution (don't think your wall at Dover is very sensible suggestion) other than to ensure surveillance remains high and that the right wing don't flourish with peddling hate, oh they do mate! There have been numerous threads over the years slagging off Christianity as being racist, sexist, homophobic etc, the usual suspects are at pains to make this point. Yet when it comes to Islam it's a different story funnily enough. The social conditioning of people so desperate to appear as lovely, caring people that they'll excuse pretty much anything to make their point. You can almost hear the thuds on the floor of their hearts sinking every time, yet again, a terrorist is named as someone who follows Islam before they rally themselves to attack anyone who dare to say a word against Islam and launch their indigent defence just to let everyone know they aren't racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bath Saint Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Do you think the spread of Islam across western Europe is a good or bad thing? Define 'spread of Islam'. At the moment, the total is about 6% of the European population, and that includes all-Muslim countries like Albania and Russia (which has a high Muslim minority of 10% in its far-flung Eastern provinces). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Every time some Islamic nutter does something like this, it just makes the apologists look more ridiculous. Look how many of these attacks there have been over the last few years. It's just shocking. If by "apologist" you mean those that can see not every Muslim is a terrorist in the same way that not every Christian is a Klan supporter, then you really need to reappraise how you define. Incidentally, i can see nothing on the latter section of this thread that can sanely be interpreted as defining any poster as an apologist. So it's fair to say that you invent a situation in order that you can get upset about it which leads to some sort of self-satisfied sanctimony. My thoughts are with the dead and their relatives and friends. RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That's the thing Jonny you don't get it. You want to polarise everything and pigeon hole everyone. I don't dislike Muslims and some are the gentlest people I know. I think Islam is very dangerous though and wish people would stop trying to absolve it from any blame. If Christians had such teaching so at odds with free speech and liberalism in the west I'm sure you'd be on your high horse mocking - no doubt you will retort with something about the KKK and all just as bad. Yet strangely just prefer to shriek islamaphobe at anyone who feels there is a problem. You should watch the latest Bill Maher 'Real Time' - not known for being a right winger but speaks much sense about the default 'liberal' position. Sadly there no easy solution (don't think your wall at Dover is very sensible suggestion) other than to ensure surveillance remains high and that the right wing don't flourish with peddling hate, So we are already doing pretty much everything we can to protect ourselves. We is why this stupid Terror Threat Level just seems stupid to me. And you are trying to pigeon hole me by saying that I'd happily attack extreme Christians. So just like Corbyn I better defend myself against the usual lies the right whingers like to spread. Personally I strongly dislike and distrust any fanatical religious types whether Muslim or Christian unless they aren't involved in hate preaching violence, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 If by "apologist" you mean those that can see not every Muslim is a terrorist in the same way that not every Christian is a Klan supporter, then you really need to reappraise how you define. Incidentally, i can see nothing on the latter section of this thread that can sanely be interpreted as defining any poster as an apologist. So it's fair to say that you invent a situation in order that you can get upset about it which leads to some sort of self-satisfied sanctimony. My thoughts are with the dead and their relatives and friends. RIP That isn't what I mean at all. Anyone who thinks that every Muslim is a terrorist is frankly an idiot. I am married to someone from an Islamic background where most of her family are Muslims so I know more than most that not every person is a terrorist (though why you feel this needs repeating for the billionth time I have no idea.) When someone wants to have an honest discussion about the problem with Islamic extremism and how it can be combated in the West and within Islamic communities then most of the time they are accused of Islamaphobia, called racists and mindless comparisons are brought out about the crusades, christian Nazis and the KKK from 50 years ago which is the equivalent to sticking fingers in ears and humming loudly. Frankly you have simply not read the thread if you believe there is not a denial from many about this problem which I and others believe amounts to an apologist attitude. Radical Islamic terror- particularly the kind exported over the last 20 years is a real problem that needs to be urgently tackled in the West and in the Islamic community. Many will not even admit there is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 The reason a lot of people make a point about defending muslims is because they know there will naturally be an emotional backlash against them, and that creates further division, which in turn causes more people to feel ostracised and more likely to turn against their own country and fellow citizens. I expect many of those same people actually have reservations about the religion, and the disgusting and/or stupid people that use it as an excuse for committing unforgiveable acts. Unfortunately religion as a whole is an irrational, illogical, intangible belief that cannot be disproved and therefore cannot be argued against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Albert Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 The reason a lot of people make a point about defending muslims is because they know there will naturally be an emotional backlash against them, and that creates further division, which in turn causes more people to feel ostracised and more likely to turn against their own country and fellow citizens. I expect many of those same people actually have reservations about the religion, and the disgusting and/or stupid people that use it as an excuse for committing unforgiveable acts. Unfortunately religion as a whole is an irrational, illogical, intangible belief that cannot be disproved and therefore cannot be argued against. I agree with this but I'm not sure that anyone should be required to disprove something that cannot be proven. Unfortunately there are widely-held Islamic beliefs around freedom of speech, gender equality, respect and equality for the gay community, and Sharia law that are incompatible with modern western society. The same can also be said for other religions, though. It troubles me when a liberal community that I always considered myself to be a part of bends itself into logical pretzels supporting the rights of a religious minority to openly discriminate against others. One of the popular symbols of the womens' marches here in N.America following Trump's inauguration was a woman wearing a Stars and Stripes hijab. Ultimately the Islamic communities in western countries expect and receive freedoms and benefits that most Islamic governments would not in a million years offer to religious minorities in their countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 The ever reliable loons at Fox News asking Farage if May's reference to the perpetrator being British-born was a dig at Trump. And Farage, the weasel opportunist who's on Fox's payroll not denying it. #specialrelationship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Define 'spread of Islam'. At the moment, the total is about 6% of the European population, and that includes all-Muslim countries like Albania and Russia (which has a high Muslim minority of 10% in its far-flung Eastern provinces). Increases of many millions every decade. Now you can answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 March, 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That isn't what I mean at all. Anyone who thinks that every Muslim is a terrorist is frankly an idiot. I am married to someone from an Islamic background where most of her family are Muslims so I know more than most that not every person is a terrorist (though why you feel this needs repeating for the billionth time I have no idea.) When someone wants to have an honest discussion about the problem with Islamic extremism and how it can be combated in the West and within Islamic communities then most of the time they are accused of Islamaphobia, called racists and mindless comparisons are brought out about the crusades, christian Nazis and the KKK from 50 years ago which is the equivalent to sticking fingers in ears and humming loudly. Frankly you have simply not read the thread if you believe there is not a denial from many about this problem which I and others believe amounts to an apologist attitude. Radical Islamic terror- particularly the kind exported over the last 20 years is a real problem that needs to be urgently tackled in the West and in the Islamic community. Many will not even admit there is a problem. Who doesn't admit there is a problem? There clearly is but some people still seem to think that all Islam is a problem, which is why some repeat over and over again that the problem is with the extremist factions and not with the majority of Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 March, 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Read this thread would be my suggestion. It's absolutely packed with it. Really? Where? I see plenty of people condemning the sickening acts of terrorism. I also see plenty of people pointing out that the problem lies with the extremists and not with Islam in general. For someone who says he is close to Muslims why do you never condemn those who openly slag off all Muslims in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Increases of many millions every decade. Now you can answer my question? Why don't you answer the question that was put to you? Let's suppose you are correct, and this "spread of Islam" is a big problem. What would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 I agree with this but I'm not sure that anyone should be required to disprove something that cannot be proven. Unfortunately there are widely-held Islamic beliefs around freedom of speech, gender equality, respect and equality for the gay community, and Sharia law that are incompatible with modern western society. The same can also be said for other religions, though. It troubles me when a liberal community that I always considered myself to be a part of bends itself into logical pretzels supporting the rights of a religious minority to openly discriminate against others. One of the popular symbols of the womens' marches here in N.America following Trump's inauguration was a woman wearing a Stars and Stripes hijab. Ultimately the Islamic communities in western countries expect and receive freedoms and benefits that most Islamic governments would not in a million years offer to religious minorities in their countries. True, I may have worded it badly but the point I was trying to make was that it's hard to have a rational debate/talk/critique when someone can just say "well that's what I believe". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 (edited) Who doesn't admit there is a problem? There clearly is but some people still seem to think that all Islam is a problem, which is why some repeat over and over again that the problem is with the extremist factions and not with the majority of Muslims. The common refrain from you soggy and others like you when someone brings up Islamic terrorism and how a majority of Muslims believe some despicable things are things like "Christians are just as bad" "what about the crusades?" "Nazis were Christian you know" "lets just talk to IS we don't have to get rid of them." You tie yourself up in knots trying to downplay the effect of radical Islam over the last 20 years and absolutely refusing to concede that some of the responsibility for this rests on the shoulders of the Islamic communities in the UK. I condemn all forms of extremism but it is clear for all to see that it's the extremism emanating from the Islamic community that has been the cause of an overwhelming number of deaths and appaling crimes in recent years. The simple truth is that many Muslims have some hideously regressive views that should be abhorrent to anyone who values Western values and freedom. Islamic extremism is a threat to our society and needs to be urgently tackled both by Western society and in the Islamic communities themselves. Do you disagree? Edited 23 March, 2017 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Really? Where? I see plenty of people condemning the sickening acts of terrorism. I also see plenty of people pointing out that the problem lies with the extremists and not with Islam in general. For someone who says he is close to Muslims why do you never condemn those who openly slag off all Muslims in this thread? We have had this conversation before soggy. Last time this happened you could identify two comments from two posters that amounted to "slagging off all Muslims." I emphasised the fact that it's actually a tiny number who condemn ALL Muslims but I condemned the two comments that said so. You're going to have to try harder to find that non-existent Islamaphobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Do you think the spread of Islam across western Europe is a good or bad thing? That would mean the spread of Muslims? I'm indifferent about it. My experiences of Muslim people are positive. A friend, a couple of colleagues and people I come across on a daily basis whilst going about my business. My friend and colleagues will be as outraged by the killings yesterday as you or I. Perhaps your experiences have been different from mine. That said I've never lived in Bradford or Luton and I sympathise with people whose home town demographic changes very quickly. Also I'd rather not see face veils, but I'm not sure I'd ban them. Muslims are a wide variety of people and I try not to generalise too much about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Strange that he's not been named. I'm sure if he was Bob Smith from Cornwall, he would have been. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Strange that he's not been named. I'm sure if he was Bob Smith from Cornwall, he would have been. Khalid Masood aged 52. From the West Midlands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Why don't you answer the question that was put to you? Let's suppose you are correct, and this "spread of Islam" is a big problem. What would you do? I did answer the question, not difficult to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Why don't you answer the question that was put to you? Let's suppose you are correct, and this "spread of Islam" is a big problem. What would you do? I would stop the migration of anymore Muslims into Western Europe. But as stated many times before, the damage has already been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That would mean the spread of Muslims? I'm indifferent about it. My experiences of Muslim people are positive. A friend, a couple of colleagues and people I come across on a daily basis whilst going about my business. My friend and colleagues will be as outraged by the killings yesterday as you or I. Perhaps your experiences have been different from mine. That said I've never lived in Bradford or Luton and I sympathise with people whose home town demographic changes very quickly. Also I'd rather not see face veils, but I'm not sure I'd ban them. Muslims are a wide variety of people and I try not to generalise too much about them. You're 'indifferent' about a culture that brings with it murder and terrorism. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 I would stop the migration of anymore Muslims into Western Europe. But as stated many times before, the damage has already been done. How would that stop British born muslims like that bastard yesterday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 The only way i believe this will be solved is from within the Islamic community - there is nothing the western world will be able to do to stop these extremists. I think it will need Muslims to stand up against IS and prevent them doing in the name of Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 One in Belgium now, Mohammad R . Doubt it's got anything to do with Islam though Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bath Saint Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 Increases of many millions every decade. Now you can answer my question? Define 'many' The current Muslim population of 44 million. By 2030 it is projected to be about 60 million. That is in a total population in Europe of about 750 million. So, no biggie really and I'm not too bothered about it. I know and work with several Muslims and they're all fine. I work internationally with Muslims across Europe and the world and they're all fine. My kids have Muslim friends at school and they and they're parents are lovely people. So, based on my personal experience, I have no worries. How about you? Are you quaking in your boots. In any case, it is just demographic change, isn't it? What on earth would you 'do' about it? Stopping immigration isn't going to change much as we have a settled Muslim population. In fact, apart from kerbing immigration, I'd be interested in what you'd 'do' to stop the 'spread' of the Muslim population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bath Saint Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 One in Belgium now, Mohammad R . Doubt it's got anything to do with Islam though Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk You're right, nothing to do with Islam, everything to do with hatred and a murderous outlook - which is not Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 The only way i believe this will be solved is from within the Islamic community - there is nothing the western world will be able to do to stop these extremists. I think it will need Muslims to stand up against IS and prevent them doing in the name of Islam. How do you deal with lone wolves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 How do you deal with lone wolves? I think its almost impossible but is anyone really that alone with terrorist acts such as yesterday - I would imagine most have accomplices/cells/groups that are aware of them. Stopping them as I say almost impossible really how do you stop someone crashing into crowds of people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 But as stated many times before, the damage has already been done. How would that stop British born muslims like that bastard yesterday? That's what I said above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 March, 2017 Share Posted 23 March, 2017 That's what I said above. Run for the hills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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