Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[ashnats]

I reckon some of the people on here doing all they can to defend Islam would be doing the same even if their families got butchered in the street.

 

well, er...yes of course - what is the connection between being butchered in the street and islam??? You could equally say "I reckon some of the people on here supporting saints would be doing the same even if Taylor Swift won an Oscar".

 

[Sour Mash]

what is the connection between being butchered in the street and islam??

People have been butchered in the street in the name of Islam quite a bit recently.

[CB Fry]

well, er...yes of course - what is the connection between being butchered in the street and islam??? You could equally say "I reckon some of the people on here supporting saints would be doing the same even if Taylor Swift won an Oscar".

 

There's been some weapons grade disingenuousness on this thread but I think you've taken gold.

 

Well done.

[whelk]

I don't know. Ask Whelk.

 

Sorry what do want to ask me?

[ashnats]

People have been butchered in the street in the name of Islam quite a bit recently.

 

"in the name of" isn't quite the same though. The KKK act in the name of god, doesn't mean all Christians are racist. (although many may be)

[Sour Mash]

"in the name of" isn't quite the same though. The KKK act in the name of god, doesn't mean all Christians are racist. (although many may be)

 

'quite the same' as what?

[Sour Mash]

Newsnight interesting tonight. Clearly a major problem with Islam.

[van Hanegem]

"Vehemently defend Islam." Perhaps you should try looking at it a different way? How about vehemently defending those people who have done nothing wrong? There are those here that seem to think that the problem is Islam and Muslims. I don't think it is unreasonable to point out that Islam/Muslims are not alone in committing atrocities and that "we" do not face a threat from Islam, but we do face a threat from terrorists. If we are going round in circles it is because there is a faction on here who would have us believe that the problem is Islam and not a number of nutters who clearly have no grounded religious beliefs and are prepared to do things that anyone who had a basic shred of decency for his fellow man would not do. The problem doesn't lie with Muslims or Christians or whatever. It lies with the fact that despite it is 2016 and we like to think we are civilised, we are not. If you look past the terrorist news (and I know there are a couple of people who only seem to want to read news about terrorist activities) you will see on a daily basis that there are murders, rapes etc. The vast majority of these acts are not carried out by terrorists yet there is an outrage when a "Muslim" murders or rapes someone and not a word when someone else does. You are more likely to be killed by a non-terrorist than a terrorist but you wouldn't know that to listen to the usual suspects on here. I often wonder why you spend so much time attacking those who attack them? Are you in the camp of Sour Mash and Batman? Islam is not a threat to you and me. Nutters who use a religion as an excuse for their actions are a different matter.

 

I don't agree SOG, islam is a clear and present danger to western societies. It's not just the nutters who use their religion as an excuse for killing innocents (other muslims included!), it's the whole concept of this faith. Whereas christianity and judaism in Europe were confronted with the Enlightenment which led to people practisizing their faith in a more private manner, islam is still intertwined with politics and legislative matters in a way we shouldn't allow to happen in European countries. Yet, we are allowing islam to get a grip on our societies, for example by tolerating sharia courts, the constraining of the freedom of speech due to islamic sensitivity or not preventing imams getting in who are educated and instructed by governments from countries like Saudi Arabia or Turkey. This way they keep control over their "flock" in Europe and this doesn't help to let these people integrate to say the least.

 

Mind you, all muslim countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) and in 1990 they announced the Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, this is the islamic answer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights from 1945. Of course there are some essential differences... The freedom of speech is a bit limited as your opinion has to be in line with the sharia. Article 10 excludes freedom of religion, as a muslim you are not allowed to leave the islam or to convert to another religion and there's even an article (6) that assures the fundamental inequality of women. Surely you will agree that it's not a good thing that muslim countries still control their citizens abroad through mosques in Europe they're eager to finance? Or do you really believe there's no threat at all?

 

Of course I don't have a problem with a so called "moderate" muslim who considers his faith as a private matter and believes the sharia laws are for idiots. Then again I hear the words of Erdogan when he was told by a journalist that his AK party was described as "moderate islamic": 'These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it'.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I seriously doubt that your average European Muslim has even heard of the 'Organisation of Islamic Cooperation' let alone have opted to dedicate their lives to following its strictures. For that matter methinks the personal opinions of the Turkish President are surely of marginal importance - outside of Turkey that is. It should also go without saying that so-called 'Sharia Courts' have no legal authority in UK law.

 

I refuse to fall into the trap of seeing the Islamic faith itself as the enemy of the West - Islam has been a part of the West for centuries. Neither do I view your average European Muslim as some kind of threat that I need live in fear of. On a personal note, I happen to have Muslims in my extended family that I can assure you are perfectly reasonable, law abiding and unthreatening induviduals. It seems to me that while some from the older generation yearn for a return to the (largly imaginary) monoculture of their youth, many of our youngsters are actualy getting on with the business of making their way in this diverse and very multicultural world they live in. That is modernity - whether some on here like it or not.

 

Yes terrorism is obviously a big problem in the world today that cannot be overlooked or downplayed by any means. But if the naked racism/islamapobia I see from some on here is to be our only response to that danger then I fear what is already a bad situation will soon become even worse. Much worse possibly ...

[1885]

I seriously doubt that your average European Muslim has even heard of the 'Organisation of Islamic Cooperation' let alone have opted to dedicate their lives to following its strictures. For that matter methinks the personal opinions of the Turkish President are surely of marginal importance - outside of Turkey that is. It should also go without saying that so-called 'Sharia Courts' have no legal authority in UK law.

 

I refuse to fall into the trap of seeing the Islamic faith itself as the enemy of the West - Islam has been a part of the West for centuries. Neither do I view your average European Muslim as some kind of threat that I need live in fear of. On a personal note, I happen to have Muslims in my extended family that I can assure you are perfectly reasonable, law abiding and unthreatening induviduals. It seems to me that while some from the older generation yearn for a return to the (largly imaginary) monoculture of their youth, many of our youngsters are actualy getting on with the business of making their way in this diverse and very multicultural world they live in. That is modernity - whether some on here like it or not.

 

Yes terrorism is obviously a big problem in the world today that cannot be overlooked or downplayed by any means. But if the naked racism/islamapobia I see from some on here is to be our only response to that danger then I fear what is already a bad situation will soon become even worse. Much worse possibly ...

 

Pssst....

 

[van Hanegem]

Charlie, methinks you're being naive when you really believe that the avarage European muslim isn't ruled by the laws of islam because he hasn't heard of the IOC and it's Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. In the Netherlands most mosques within the Turkish community are run by Diyanet, the Turkish Preasidium for Religious Affairs which is part of Erdogans Ministry of General Affairs. When Erdogan came to power the budget of Diyanet became more than one billion euro's, far more than the budget of many other Ministries. It's very clear Erdogan is using Diyanet to control his countryman in the Netherlands and in Germany. At the time of the general elections in Turkey the Diyanet imams told their flock to vote for Erdogan so 70% of the Turks in the Netherlands voted for him. A couple of weeks ago, after the failure of the coup against Erdogan, the Diyanet imams read out aloud a statement which said that the Gülen movement was to blame. It stated that this movement (of the former friend of Erdogan...) is a terrorist organisation like the Kurdish PKK and so the Erdogan fans in the Netherlands are harassing the Turks who sympathise with Fethullah Gülen. Regarding islamic affairs, you can look for yourself what Diyanet stands for, it's the same sh*t as I told you above. Only last month we had a Diyanet imam from a small town in Holland declaring he was not only willing to die for islam but also willing to kill for his faith. What do you think: would this idiot have any influence on the troubled minds of some of the youngsters or not?

 

Then the Saudi's. The Dutch government knows which mosques are funded by Saudi Arabia but they are not willing to make it public like our House of Commons is asking as this would "damage" the relationship with this country. The imams sent from Saudi Arabia are often worse than those from Diyanet, prohibiting muslims in Europe to accept that national laws are above the sharia. I can hear you think that it's up to the authorities to take care of these idiots but they're immediately replaced by other idiots who don't have any connection with the way of life in Western Europe, the authorities are simply failing to get a grip on their muslim communities in this regard. It's a bit daft to state that sharia courts have no legal authority in UK law as your judges state that they're not capable to judge on islamic rules and refer muslim women who want a divorce to a sharia court. We have no sharia courts in the Netherlands so our judges are telling those muslima's they have to go to England to see if they have more luck in your country...

 

Again Charlie, I don't have a problem with European muslims who believe their religion is a private matter and give the finger to the political islam and it's awful sharia laws. Alas there are many muslims in Europe who don't see it this way. There are far more idiot Suni's then there are kind Sufi's and you should wake up before you are caught between islamic fascists on the left and extreme right wingers on the other side because that's where Europe is heading fast when things don't change. As you're an amateur student in history I don't have to tell you the possible outcome of such a clash...

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm sure that we'd both like to see European Mosques follow the example of their US counterparts and become less illiberal and more moderate religious institutions. The question is how do we achieve that aim without sacrificing the liberal freedoms we are supposed to stand for? Answers on a postcard please, as they used to say on UK television.

 

Leaving that thorny question to one side for the moment, regardless of the situation pertaining in the Netherlands I understand that just 6% of UK mosques are Wahhabi (or Salafis) in nature. So evidence of some Saudi organised conspiracy to influence the UK's Muslim population for their own ends is inconclusive at best. I can only repeat myself and say again that any European citizen - regardless of their religious beliefs - is entitled to hold, and indeed express, any opinion they care to as long as they remain within the law of course. The fact that some of those opinions seem overly conservative, or even hoplessly outdated perhaps, to westerners is immaterial when seen from a human rights perspective. You cannot force people into accepting social attitudes they are reluctant to adopt and any effort to do so is likley to prove counter-productive.

 

The crackdown on religious freedom that some seem to desire as a reaction to terrorism is EXACTLY the objective the extremist are seeking because further alienating a population that already sees itself - with some justification I think - as a oppressed minority destablises society and reinforces those who would attack us. In conclusion, as a student of history dancing to a tune played by your enemy doesn't seem to be a terribly attractive option ...

[van Hanegem]

I'm sure that we'd both like to see European Mosques follow the example of their US counterparts and become less illiberal and more moderate religious institutions. The question is how do we achieve that aim without sacrificing the liberal freedoms we are supposed to stand for? Answers on a postcard please, as they used to say on UK television.

 

Why should it be "without sacrificing the liberal freedoms"? Our ancestors had to make sacrifices to get rid of the all too dominant presence of the catholic church in order to get the relative free and open society you and I are part of nowadays and I for one believe that muslims living in Europe should be willing to make some sacrifices too in order to adept to our societies. The main reason Islam is a threat to our societies is that this religion includes a very specific and detailed judicial system which doesn't agree with our national laws and our way of life in several ways. Make no mistake Charlie, enquiries showed that 45% of European muslims believe that sharia laws should have priority over national laws. That's far too many of them who apparantly can't cope with the liberal values and freedom Europe offers...

 

Of course it's difficult to enforce a change within the muslim communities as there are too many muslims who tend to live together in their own areas where they can hold on to their way of life and their own convictions. However, if you don't try you can be sure there won't be a change before long so let's make a start with demanding that muslims in Europe distance themselves from the specific sharia laws which are alien to national laws and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As they won't do it by themselves the national authorities will have to campaign to get the message through that the societies muslims live in are not accepting views about women, gay people, other religions, atheists etcetera etcetera which oppose the moral standards. I know, you can't enforce it by law so we'll have to make do with a continuous debate in which we'll have to give them a speed course on European history and show why their religion can't be part of the trias politica. This should be easy to explain looking at the mess most of the muslim countries are in, right? To show that we are serious about our demand we have to take measures like not allowing foreign imams to come to Europe but to endorse imams who had their education in Europe, withdrawel of subsidies to islamic organisations which do not accept our demand and to use positive discrimination on the job market for those who've seen the light. I could think of many more measures but that's where politicians are paid for so let them think for themselves shall we?

 

I would like to see the current islam in Europe to evolve to a more private religion. Like christianity it needs a solid reformation to do so and to realise this I believe there has to be some kind of schism between non-political islam (or moderate islam) and political-islam (or islamism). Of course we need to get rid of the fanatics who sympathise with the latter, they don't belong in Europe agreed?

[Sour Mash]

Good old moderate Muslims http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37032419

[badgerx16]

Good old moderate Muslim...

Indeed,

"

Moeen Ali's fine century helped England recover to post 328 on an entertaining opening day in the final Test against Pakistan at The Oval."

[Sour Mash]

Indeed,

"

Moeen Ali's fine century helped England recover to post 328 on an entertaining opening day in the final Test against Pakistan at The Oval."

What's your point? That a muslim bloke was good at hitting a ball with a piece of wood? What does that change?

[Batman]

What's your point? That a muslim bloke was good at hitting a ball with a piece of wood? What does that change?

 

But will he go for a pint in a gay bar?

[Sour Mash]

But will he go for a pint in a gay bar?

Or let females from his family out of the house without them having to cover up their head first.

 

Its Islam first, England 2nd anyway according to Moeen;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10897999/Youre-playing-for-England-Moeen-Ali-not-your-religion.html

[Sour Mash]

Just another regular day in Western Europe http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/698984/German-police-union-terror-checks-ISIS-refugee-plot

[badgerx16]

But will he go for a pint in a gay bar?

That is a prejudice not unique to any specific religious group.

Edited 12 August, 2016 by badgerx16

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Why should it be "without sacrificing the liberal freedoms"? Our aoncestors had to make sacrifices to get rid of the all too dominant presence of the catholic church in order to get the relative free and open society you and I are part of nowadays and I for one believe that muslims living in Europe should be willing to make some sacrifices too in order to adept to our societies. The main reason Islam is a threat to our societies is that this religion includes a very specific and detailed judicial system which doesn't agree with our national laws and our way of life in several ways. Make no mistake Charlie, enquiries showed that 45% of European muslims believe that sharia laws should have priority over national laws. That's far too many of them who apparantly can't cope with the liberal values and freedom Europe offers...

 

Of course it's difficult to enforce a change within the muslim communities as there are too many muslims who tend to live together in their own areas where they can hold on to their way of life and their own convictions. However, if you don't try you can be sure there won't be a change before long so let's make a start with demanding that muslims in Europe distance themselves from the specific sharia laws which are alien to national laws and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As they won't do it by themselves the national authorities will have to campaign to get the message through that the societies muslims live in are not accepting views about women, gay people, other religions, atheists etcetera etcetera which oppose the moral standards. I know, you can't enforce it by law so we'll have to make do with a continuous debate in which we'll have to give them a speed course on European history and show why their religion can't be part of the trias politica. This should be easy to explain looking at the mess most of the muslim countries are in, right? To show that we are serious about our demand we have to take measures like not allowing foreign imams to come to Europe but to endorse imams who had their education in Europe, withdrawel of subsidies to islamic organisations which do not accept our demand and to use positive discrimination on the job market for those who've seen the light. I could think of many more measures but that's where politicians are paid for so let them think for themselves shall we?

 

I would like to see the current islam in Europe to evolve to a more private religion. Like christianity it needs a solid reformation to do so and to realise this I believe there has to be some kind of schism between non-political islam (or moderate islam) and political-islam (or islamism). Of course we need to get rid of the fanatics who sympathise with the latter, they don't belong in Europe agreed?

 

I have some difficulty accepting the premise that a valid analogy between Europe's religious wars of the past, and problem of Islamic extremism today, can reasonably be drawn. Where is the Daesh equivalent of Martin Luther? Okay some among Europe's Muslim population may I suppose be seeking to bring about Shiria here in Europe. However, I for one struggle to reconcile that objective with those (admittedly few) Muslims I myself know.

 

Your desire that we deal with the recognised problem of fundamentalist Imams preaching hatred has already been addressed here in the UK at least - although it remains to be seen how effective these measures have been. I'm also thinking that the fountinhead of islamic terrorism is more related to events taking place in the Middle East today, rather than some serious attempt to influence the future of European society. The sheer impossibility of such a undertaking (Muslims form around 5% of the UK population) hardly needs emphasising.

 

But European history does perhaps offer us a warning as to the dire consequences of religious intolerance - a old lesson the Dutch are at least as well placed to remember as we British are. History shows us that whenever authority attempts to enforce a set of beliefs and values on a subculture that believes differently then strife will inevitably ensue. So instead of a fundamentaly iliberal approach to the issue of religious freedom - such as banning of the Burka and what ammounts to the state control of Mosques - we might do better to promote our tolerant and liberal values by acting in a tolerant and liberal manner. The French may like to talk about liberty a lot - the British like to practice it.

 

I too have seen the WZB Berlin Social Science Center research and it is indeed a matter of some concern. There can I believe be only ONE national law and it must apply to EVERYONE regardless of their religion. Extremists who cannot accept that had better emirgrate to some Muslim nation where the laws might better suit them rather than resort to terrorism.

 

Almost everything else with regard to religion is a matter methinks the state might better leave to the individual.

[sadoldgit]

I don't agree SOG, islam is a clear and present danger to western societies. It's not just the nutters who use their religion as an excuse for killing innocents (other muslims included!), it's the whole concept of this faith. Whereas christianity and judaism in Europe were confronted with the Enlightenment which led to people practisizing their faith in a more private manner, islam is still intertwined with politics and legislative matters in a way we shouldn't allow to happen in European countries. Yet, we are allowing islam to get a grip on our societies, for example by tolerating sharia courts, the constraining of the freedom of speech due to islamic sensitivity or not preventing imams getting in who are educated and instructed by governments from countries like Saudi Arabia or Turkey. This way they keep control over their "flock" in Europe and this doesn't help to let these people integrate to say the least.

 

Mind you, all muslim countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) and in 1990 they announced the Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, this is the islamic answer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights from 1945. Of course there are some essential differences... The freedom of speech is a bit limited as your opinion has to be in line with the sharia. Article 10 excludes freedom of religion, as a muslim you are not allowed to leave the islam or to convert to another religion and there's even an article (6) that assures the fundamental inequality of women. Surely you will agree that it's not a good thing that muslim countries still control their citizens abroad through mosques in Europe they're eager to finance? Or do you really believe there's no threat at all?

 

Of course I don't have a problem with a so called "moderate" muslim who considers his faith as a private matter and believes the sharia laws are for idiots. Then again I hear the words of Erdogan when he was told by a journalist that his AK party was described as "moderate islamic": 'These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it'.

 

No I don't believe there is a threat despite all that Trump, Sour Mush and Batman would have us believe. With the numbers of Muslims in the world I would say that if the majority of them were not "moderate" we would be in big trouble, yet most seem to want to live in peace with everyone else. I don't believe that Islam is a threat. I think that the bigger threat we face comes from intolerant people of all religions, races, creeds.

[van Hanegem]

Charlie, I'm not saying that the political islam or islamism has the same influence as the catholic church once did. If I was a religious person myself I would thank God for that on my bare knees... But you have to admit that already islam is causing much more misery in Western Europe than christianity and judaism have done for decades while muslims only form around 5% of the population. And I don't mean the idiots who are willing to kill for ISIS... The muslim population in the UK has doubled in 10 years time due to immigration and the excessive birth rate compared to non-muslims. What do you think will happen if it doubles again in the next 10 years or so and your society doesn't bother to act on it? Do you actually believe they will blend in fine?

 

Though I do not agree with it, the Dutch are known in the world for their "tolerance". Immigrants from Surinam, Indonesia, China and other European countries were all welcomed here and it didn't take long for them to integrate. Of course there were some problems with discrimination as there are always bigots who feel threatened by foreigners. However, those problems were absolutely nothing compared to those we have with immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa. Our liberal politicians are famous for "drinking a cup of tea" with people from the muslim communities for the last 30 years, like you they believe religion is a matter better left to the individual. Look where it got us: jewish schools and synagogues need to be protected by the police, muslim teenagers abusing and spitting on jews when they pass by, Amsterdam is the "gay capital" of Europe but gay couples wouldn't dare anymore to walk hand-in-hand because they will get molested for it, comedians and publishers are censoring themselves because they are scared for repercussions from muslims, there are no-go area's for women who don't dress themselves the way muslims demand them to dress as they are looked upon like "filthy whores" with whom you can do anything you want. I could go on but I told you all this before. These are all things we didn't have before the muslim population grew to it's current numbers so what will happen when their numbers will grow according to expectations?

 

I'm sorry Charlie but I do not share your view on leaving matters to individuals as I'm feeling like being a witness of the self inflicted eradication of European civilization and I'm not looking forward at the upcoming Eurabia with high hopes for better times. You're right, in this matter I'm an old man who believes things were better before islam knocked on the door. However, I do have some valid arguments to so...

[van Hanegem]

No I don't believe there is a threat despite all that Trump, Sour Mush and Batman would have us believe. With the numbers of Muslims in the world I would say that if the majority of them were not "moderate" we would be in big trouble, yet most seem to want to live in peace with everyone else. I don't believe that Islam is a threat. I think that the bigger threat we face comes from intolerant people of all religions, races, creeds.

 

Well SOG, you're dining room table must be a great place to live!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Charlie, I'm not saying that the political islam or islamism has the same influence as the catholic church once did. If I was a religious person myself I would thank God for that on my bare knees... But you have to admit that already islam is causing much more misery in Western Europe than christianity and judaism have done for decades while muslims only form around 5% of the population. And I don't mean the idiots who are willing to kill for ISIS... The muslim population in the UK has doubled in 10 years time due to immigration and the excessive birth rate compared to non-muslims. What do you think will happen if it doubles again in the next 10 years or so and your society doesn't bother to act on it? Do you actually believe they will blend in fine?

T

Though I do not agree with it, the Dutch are known in the world for their "tolerance". Immigrants from Surinam, Indonesia, China and other European countries were all welcomed here and it didn't take long for them to integrate. Of course there were some problems with discrimination as there are always bigots who feel threatened by foreigners. However, those problems were absolutely nothing compared to those we have with immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa. Our liberal politicians are famous for "drinking a cup of tea" with people from the muslim communities for the last 30 years, like you they believe religion is a matter better left to the individual. Look where it got us: jewish schools and synagogues need to be protected by the police, muslim teenagers abusing and spitting on jews when they pass by, Amsterdam is the "gay capital" of Europe but gay couples wouldn't dare anymore to walk hand-in-hand because they will get molested for it, comedians and publishers are censoring themselves because they are scared for repercussions from muslims, there are no-go area's for women who don't dress themselves the way muslims demand them to dress as they are looked upon like "filthy whores" with whom you can do anything you want. I could go on but I told you all this before. These are all things we didn't have before the muslim population grew to it's current numbers so what will happen when their numbers will grow according to expectations?

 

I'm sorry Charlie but I do not share your view on leaving matters to individuals as I'm feeling like being a witness of the self inflicted eradication of European civilization and I'm not looking forward at the upcoming Eurabia with high hopes for better times. You're right, in this matter I'm an old man who believes things were better before islam knocked on the door. However, I do have some valid arguments to so...

 

Well thank you for your insight into the state of race relations in the Netherlands - it does all sound pretty grim. In return please allow me to set out the UK picture as I perceive it.

 

Here I'm thinking that any abuse or discrimination our Homosexual and Jewish minorities might suffer is at least as likley to orginate from what we might call the 'indigenous' white Anglo-Saxon population as it is from our Muslim immigrant community. Our predominetly white working-class game of Football happens to provide a nice illustration of this for despite there being around 4,500 professional players employed in the English game (a significant number of which must be gay presumably) only a handful have so far been prepared to come 'out of the closet' as it were -because they fear the level of abuse or ridicle they would probably suffer. This in 21st century Britain.

As for the issue of antisemitism in modern Britain, I would surgest that the average British Jew would probably feel more apprehensive at the sight of a white 'skinhead' approaching them rather than they would meeting your typical Muslim in the street. As it happens, I was passing through the traditionly Jewish 'Golders Green' area of north London only this week and I didn't notice any perceptible tension between the many (openly) Jewish and Muslim people who inhabit that suburb. Yes I know my passing impression of London life is hardly scientific or conclusive evidence of anything.

 

You seem primarily to see Muslim immigrants only as a problem that needs to be addressed, rather than as induviduals who might have something to offer. Yes this current wave of islamic inspired terrorism we see in Europe is a very real danger of course. However, it is also true that immigrants make a positive contribution to society too. For example they enrich our cultural diversity and gene pool; they work and pay their taxes; they start businesses; they serve in our armed forces, police and health services. Some of them have come from communities that have existed in Europe for centuries.Therefore, it is both a mistake and grossly unfair I think to see this group collectivly as some find of threat when in fact only a tiny minority are so. While it is neccessary that we react to terrorism we must also take care not to OVERREACT because in doing so we risk the values Europe is supposed to stand for. At least that is how I see the situation.

 

Now, if you don't mind, I think I'll leave it here because you and me have been batting this very same 'ball' over the very same 'net' for some time now and I really don't think there is much more new that I can say on the subject.

[van Hanegem]

Now, if you don't mind, I think I'll leave it here because you and me have been batting this very same 'ball' over the very same 'net' for some time now and I really don't think there is much more new that I can say on the subject.

 

You're welcome Charlie, let me know when you need an update on what's happening in Europe...

[Verbal]

Here's some excellent news. Anjem Choudary faces up to 10 years in prison after his conviction for supporting ISIS. As a figure who seems always to be in the cheerleading background of a large number of terrorist incidents and failed attempts in the UK, as well as inciting four-lions dimwits to 'fight' in Syria/Iraq, it's pretty extraordinary that Choudary has escaped prosecution until now.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-choudary-convicted-of-supporting-islamic-state

 

The only problem is why it's taken since July, when he was found guilty, for the courts to allow this to be reported. Justice should be seen to be done, as it's being done.

[whelk]

I hope they are going to charge our local Methodist vicar as well. Not fair they are just picking on Islam.

[Griffo]

I'm glad Choudary is getting a punishment for being a c*nt but giving him time inside is one of the worst things to do. He'll be treated like a martyr in there and be able to spread his sh*t in there and radicalise others even more easily than he can outside.

[whelk]

BBC have a lot to answer to for wheeling out this cnt so frequently.

[Batman]

BBC have a lot to answer to for wheeling out this cnt so frequently.

 

BBC has many things to answer for lol

[whelk]

I'm glad Choudary is getting a punishment for being a c*nt but giving him time inside is one of the worst things to do. He'll be treated like a martyr in there and be able to spread his sh*t in there and radicalise others even more easily than he can outside.

 

Or maybe he might regularly get his head caved in.

 

 

It's noteworthy that when we did a sound test before the interview, Anjem said "9/11 and 7/7" then smiled.

[Sour Mash]

More mental illness sufferers about http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37132582

 

Regular day in Europe.

[TwoPints]

More mental illness sufferers about http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37132582

 

Regular day in Europe.

Congratulations on beating Batman to posting this link. You must be very proud.

[Sour Mash]

Congratulations on beating Batman to posting this link. You must be very proud.

 

Why would I be proud?

 

What an odd reaction to such news.

[Batman]

some else with 'mental issues' went about lunging at passers by with a machete in Belgium

 

they want to sort their health care system out. ffs

[Sour Mash]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37199923

[1885]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37199923

 

Damn. No mentioning if they are Muslim. So I guess, you're not celebrating yet ?

[Sour Mash]

Damn. No mentioning if they are Muslim. So I guess, you're not celebrating yet ?

Why would I be celebrating it either way? Who do you think they are likely to be? What are your thoughts on it? What an all round odd response.

[sadoldgit]

Congratulations on beating Batman to posting this link. You must be very proud.

 

Yep, regular day on TSW.

[Sour Mash]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-stabbing-knifeman-shouts-allahu-8722043#ICID=sharebar_twitter

[Batman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-stabbing-knifeman-shouts-allahu-8722043#ICID=sharebar_twitter

 

nothing to do with islam and everything to do with poor mental health

[1885]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-stabbing-knifeman-shouts-allahu-8722043#ICID=sharebar_twitter

 

I'm pretty sure you got your reasons for not posting any links about stabbings + attacks commited by "domestics"...

[hypochondriac]

I'm pretty sure you got your reasons for not posting any links about stabbings + attacks commited by "domestics"...

I think the point is the proportionally high numbers committed by Islamic extremists not that other crime is not committed.

[Jonnyboy]

some else with 'mental issues' went about lunging at passers by with a machete in Belgium

 

they want to sort their health care system out. ffs

 

Bit like when that Brit on the sub went mental with a gun in Southampton and Royston Smith had to wrestle him down after he killed someone.

[buctootim]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_schizophrenia#Religion_as_a_trigger_for_schizophrenia

[Sour Mash]

I'm pretty sure you got your reasons for not posting any links about stabbings + attacks commited by "domestics"...

 

Check the subject of the thread.

 

What's your opinion on the subject out of interest?

[1885]

Check the subject of the thread.

 

What's your opinion on the subject out of interest?

 

That people like you make me sick and I'd rather have 500.000 muslims around me than one bellend like you.

[1885]

I think the point is the proportionally high numbers committed by Islamic extremists not that other crime is not committed.

 

Compared to what ?

In Germany there have been zero deaths due to Islamic motivated attacks but over 20 due to right wing extremism. It's pretty obvious what's more dangerous.

[hypochondriac]

Compared to what ?

In Germany there have been zero deaths due to Islamic motivated attacks but over 20 due to right wing extremism. It's pretty obvious what's more dangerous.

So there haven't been a load of terrorist attacks in the name of Islam on the past few years then? Its denying the evidence in front of your own eyes. No wonder people get labelled apologists. And before you repeat those tired clichés about me being racist or islamaphobic I'll repeat again that I'm married to a Muslim.

Edited 30 August, 2016 by hypochondriac