Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[sadoldgit]

This is worth a read on the subject...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/14/child-grooming-sexual-abuse-race

[Verbal]

Great post Verbal, you're referring to the golden age of islam and that must have been a wonderful time. It is said that even the European Enlightenment owes a great deal to the Moors who even allowed Jews to walk around freely as they understood "business" had to go on. Too bad it all ended and stuff like the jihad and sharia took over in the 13th century, nothing good came out of this up to this day. I reckon this aspiration to find the "pure faith" has blocked the way to separation between the temporal and spiritual power like christianity did find. With the "political islam" ruling muslims be aware that they form a collective from which there is no escape, you'll be an outcast when you want out. Of course there are more than enough muslims in Europe who are kind individuals seeking their own way but more and more you hear about the sharia claiming it's role, especially amongst Sunni's. To me this is a clear and present danger to European norms and values as there are many things within the sharia which are opposing our liberal way of life. I do believe there's a connection between the rise of jihad and sharia in Europe and the troubled youngsters who are willing to blow themselves to pieces. I can't understand why governments of European countries don't act on this, especially England which even allows shariacouncils. What's your view on this?

 

You're going back too far, though, for a starting point for 'jihad' as an anti-Western tool. Wahhabism dates back to the 18th century, but that was an Islamic 'purification' movement confined to the then tiny bedouin communities and potentates of the Arabian peninsula. The Deobandi movement began after the 1857 uprising in India, but that was not so much an anti-Western revolt as a revolt by Sepoys against the use of pig oil in the lubrication of gun barrels.

 

The idea of jihad as an anti-Western tool dates back only to the first world war and was invented by a German military officer called Max von Oppenheim. In order to try and provoke uprisings against the Arabian bits of the British empire, and to fire up soldiers among their wartime allies the Turks, Oppenheim orchestrated a strong connection between anti western warfare and more traditional idea about 'jihad'. He did this as a way of galvanising Muslim soldiers fighting not just occupiers but unbelievers. The pacts he sought with the Arabs and Turks were laced with the idea that the Germans were the true supporters and liberators of middle-Eastern Muslims, and that the British were intrinsically anti-Muslim.

 

This pernicious idea was unfortunately perpetuated into the second world war, when the leader of the Palestinians and grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sided with Hitler and sang the praises of the Nazis' attempts to exterminate the Jews. (Palestine at that time was under a UN mandate administered by the British.) There are, sadly, photographs of Hitler and Husseini enjoying friendly chats. Husseini's hard line fundamentalism led directly to the Palestinian rejection of a deal offered by David Ben-Gurion, which, when compared with anything that might have been offered today, was decidedly workable.

 

By the time of the siege of Mecca in 1979, when Wahhabi extremist insurgents had to be dislodged from the holiest site in Islam by French paratroopers, the jihadist=anti-Westernism die was firmly cast.

 

So as much as we love to locate anti-Western jihad in the frightening exotica of an alien, ancient civilisation, it has a lineage in this form that goes back to 20th century Germans.

[sadoldgit]

This is worth a read too Whelk/Hutch -

 

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2011/01/straw-statistics-bias.html

[van Hanegem]

The pattern that you are looking for is that more non Muslims than Muslims commit rapes.

 

There's always a choice... You can look upon this in this way http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield or you could choose to not mention it at all http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372.

[sadoldgit]

There's always a choice... You can look upon this in this way http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield or you could choose to not mention it at all http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372.

 

And therein lies the problem. It is easy to pluck figures from various places to support an agenda but how accurate are the figures to start with? I was reading about the Swedish rape figures earlier and it seems that they are not allowed to mention someone's race/religion in the charging so I am not sure how they know how to break down the figures. I worked in the CPS up to a couple of years ago and spent some time with the Rape & Serious Sexual Offences Unit. Not once was it mentioned that there was a bigger problem with a certainly ethnicity group or religious group. You always knew if there was because the computer system would be changed for monitoring purposes.

[van Hanegem]

You're going back too far, though, for a starting point for 'jihad' as an anti-Western tool. Wahhabism dates back to the 18th century, but that was an Islamic 'purification' movement confined to the then tiny bedouin communities and potentates of the Arabian peninsula. The Deobandi movement began after the 1857 uprising in India, but that was not so much an anti-Western revolt as a revolt by Sepoys against the use of pig oil in the lubrication of gun barrels.

 

The idea of jihad as an anti-Western tool dates back only to the first world war and was invented by a German military officer called Max von Oppenheim. In order to try and provoke uprisings against the Arabian bits of the British empire, and to fire up soldiers among their wartime allies the Turks, Oppenheim orchestrated a strong connection between anti western warfare and more traditional idea about 'jihad'. He did this as a way of galvanising Muslim soldiers fighting not just occupiers but unbelievers. The pacts he sought with the Arabs and Turks were laced with the idea that the Germans were the true supporters and liberators of middle-Eastern Muslims, and that the British were intrinsically anti-Muslim.

 

This pernicious idea was unfortunately perpetuated into the second world war, when the leader of the Palestinians and grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sided with Hitler and sang the praises of the Nazis' attempts to exterminate the Jews. (Palestine at that time was under a UN mandate administered by the British.) There are, sadly, photographs of Hitler and Husseini enjoying friendly chats. Husseini's hard line fundamentalism led directly to the Palestinian rejection of a deal offered by David Ben-Gurion, which, when compared with anything that might have been offered today, was decidedly workable.

 

By the time of the siege of Mecca in 1979, when Wahhabi extremist insurgents had to be dislodged from the holiest site in Islam by French paratroopers, the jihadist=anti-Westernism die was firmly cast.

 

So as much as we love to locate anti-Western jihad in the frightening exotica of an alien, ancient civilisation, it has a lineage in this form that goes back to 20th century Germans.

 

Thanks for the lesson Verbal but I didn't mean to say that the jihad is an anti western tool though it might be seen this way by some radicalised minds these days. I was referring to the end of the golden age of islam when the likes of Ibn Taymiyyah fought against the hellenic way of thinking and strived for the "renaissance of jihadism" in order to reach a society ruled by the sharia in it's purest form (I'm quoting here). Today militant muslims do see this Taymiyyah as the greatest islamic scholar and well, in my opinion he didn't help islam in the right direction to put it mildly. It would have been better when the Abbasids had stayed on longer, allowing the faith to explore and evolve. But what's your opinion on sharia vs European standards? Do you think these two can exist side by side in peace in Europe or do you think governments should do anything to annihilate sharia laws from our countries?

 

Evolve instead of evaluate... Apparently it's difficult for me to write a report in Dutch and a post on this forum at the same time...

Edited 7 April, 2016 by van Hanegem

[van Hanegem]

And therein lies the problem. It is easy to pluck figures from various places to support an agenda but how accurate are the figures to start with? I was reading about the Swedish rape figures earlier and it seems that they are not allowed to mention someone's race/religion in the charging so I am not sure how they know how to break down the figures. I worked in the CPS up to a couple of years ago and spent some time with the Rape & Serious Sexual Offences Unit. Not once was it mentioned that there was a bigger problem with a certainly ethnicity group or religious group. You always knew if there was because the computer system would be changed for monitoring purposes.

 

I don't know SOG, my brain tells me to listen to reason but my gut feels the opposite... Luckily it's not the other way around!

[Sour Mash]

It was a pleasant change to be in a place without religious bigots.

 

I didn't say that there were no religious bigots in Turkey, just that I didn't come across any in my travels.

Do you ever get anything right.

[Sour Mash]

Not sure what you point is? The vast majority of rapists currently serving time in prison are not Muslim. Is that your point?

His point is that your own stats demonstrate that there is a problem with muslim rape gangs. Same way there is a problem with muslim terrorists. Both of those things are facts, supported by statistics.

[hypochondriac]

The point is there is a disproportionately high number of convicted rapists who are Muslim. Why that is is up for debate but the problem is there, supported by your own statistics.

[Johnny Bognor]

When you look at the mistreatment of women across the middle east, it is naive to think that none of that would be imported into europe.

 

It'no different to lager louts, with loutish behaviour being exported to the spanish resorts every summer. The locals must have a dreadful perception of the english, but not all english people are like that. But just because not all english people are like that, does not mean that there is not a problem.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The point is there is a disproportionately high number of convicted rapists who are Muslim. Why that is is up for debate but the problem is there, supported by your own statistics.

 

I understand that official statistics show that the UK British-Muslim population is both younger and poorer (on average of course) than other groups in modern British society. Experts in the field of criminology the world over have long identifield that a relationship exists everywhere between youth, poverty and rates of criminal offending. So it would seem then that socio-economic factors would either explain, or at least partially explain, this issue.

 

The other side of the coin here is that Crime Survey data shows that Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews are more likley to become the VICTIMS of crime in our society.

[whelk]

Last line makes me think of Duckhunter

 

[sadoldgit]

Do you ever get anything right.

 

Yes thanks. I did say I didn't come across any in my trips there but I am not that blinkered that I don't think that they dont exist in the whole of the country.

[sadoldgit]

His point is that your own stats demonstrate that there is a problem with muslim rape gangs. Same way there is a problem with muslim terrorists. Both of those things are facts, supported by statistics.

 

So as it said in one of the articles, if a white male rapes he is a rapist, if a Pakistani rapes he is a Pakistani rapist? Did you read both of the articles? Surely a rapist is a rapist, the race or religion doesn't make a difference.

Edited 9 April, 2016 by sadoldgit

[hypochondriac]

So as it said in one of the articles, if a white male rapes he is a rapist, if a Pakistani rapes he is a Pakistani rapist? Did you read both of the articles? Surely a rapist is a racist, the race or religion doesn't make a difference.

Do you think a racist rapist only rapes someone they aren't racially prejudiced against?

[Sour Mash]

So as it said in one of the articles, if a white male rapes he is a rapist, if a Pakistani rapes he is a Pakistani rapist? Did you read both of the articles? Surely a rapist is a racist, the race or religion doesn't make a difference.

Which bits of my post do you disagree with? I've made no mention of race or nationality, not sure why you're bringing that into it.

[sadoldgit]

Do you think a racist rapist only rapes someone they aren't racially prejudiced against?

 

What an earth is that all about???

[sadoldgit]

Which bits of my post do you disagree with? I've made no mention of race or nationality, not sure why you're bringing that into it.

 

Muslim rape gang. Your quote.

[hypochondriac]

What an earth is that all about???

Another whoosh moment for soggy.

[Sour Mash]

Muslim rape gang. Your quote.

What about them?

[sadoldgit]

Another whoosh moment for soggy.

 

You keep doing this. Why is that? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

[sadoldgit]

What about them?

 

You seem to have this view that because you don't mention a race or nationality that somehow your views are less abhorrent.

[Sour Mash]

You seem to have this view that because you don't mention a race or nationality that somehow your views are less abhorrent.

So no answer, just continued abuse. Why is it so abhorrent to point a problem with muslim rape gangs and terrorists? Why when people point it out you have to get so angry and upset?

[sadoldgit]

When you keep on as if they are the only ones committing these crimes as if is solely down to their religion. I am not angry or upset, I just feel that people like you make things worse for ordinary law abiding people.

[Sour Mash]

When you keep on as if they are the only ones committing these crimes as if is solely down to their religion. I am not angry or upset, I just feel that people like you make things worse for ordinary law abiding people.

Which posts have I said they are the only ones committing these crimes?

 

How have I made life worse for any law abiding people?

[hypochondriac]

You keep doing this. Why is that? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

If you read post #3215 again you may understand. Never mind.

[sadoldgit]

What is your point? Are you saying that there is a difference depending on race or religion when it comes to sexual assault?

[hypochondriac]

What is your point? Are you saying that there is a difference depending on race or religion when it comes to sexual assault?

[emoji38]read your post you imbecile.

[sadoldgit]

You know what, you have a serious problem, if you arent getting help then I advise that you do. I really cant be bothered to have anything more to do with you.

[hypochondriac]

You know what, you have a serious problem, if you arent getting help then I advise that you do. I really cant be bothered to have anything more to do with you.

 

Oh dear oh dear soggy, you really are a simple soul. Post #3215 you are calling rapists racists.

[van Hanegem]

Post #3215 you are calling rapists racists.

 

What's wrong with that? A not so clever rapist may believe women belong to a different kind of race so you could call him a racist rapist when he rapes only women and not men... Take an illiterate muslim from some Arab desert who's brainwashed with the idea that you can do anything to infidels as Allah doesn't care so he and his mates have their fun with the ladies, then he is just a rapist and I'm a "cultural racist" for writing this. You have to see things in perspective you know...

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What's wrong with that? A not so clever rapist may believe women belong to a different kind of race so you could call him a racist rapist when he rapes only women and not men... Take an illiterate muslim from some Arab desert who's brainwashed with the idea that you can do anything to infidels as Allah doesn't care so he and his mates have their fun with the ladies, then he is just a rapist and I'm a "cultural racist" for writing this. You have to see things in perspective you know...

 

Nonsense.

 

Rape (and many other forms of sexual abuse) are predominently crimes motivated by either unrestrained sexual desire on the part of the offender or perhaps an expression of some deepseated psychological need to exercise power and control over another individual. Sexual abuse is I think seldom a matter that can be so glibly associated with some old religious text - that would be a absurd oversimplification of the matter.

 

I am alas no great religious scholar, and yes I am aware that certain islamaphobes often do cite carefully selected passages from the Qur'an and interpret them to mean that this religious text allows believers to "rape" female captives. For that matter as recently as this week I witnessed on TV a Christian 'bible basher' in the United States employ the book of Liviticus to argue that God instructs the faithful to slay all homosexuals!

 

So the truth is you can if you want read almost anything into the great works of religious literature depending on the agenda you are seeking to promote. However, it seems to me that the central teaching of the Bible (or the New Testiment anyway) is surely not one of hatred towards anyone but rather one of Christ's message of compasson and forgiveness for all. My understanding is that the Qur'an is also quite explicit is instructing the faithful that Allah requires CHASTITY be maintained outside of marriage.

[hypochondriac]

I can't believe people are taking my flippant remark regarding a misspelling seriously...

[sadoldgit]

What's wrong with that? A not so clever rapist may believe women belong to a different kind of race so you could call him a racist rapist when he rapes only women and not men... Take an illiterate muslim from some Arab desert who's brainwashed with the idea that you can do anything to infidels as Allah doesn't care so he and his mates have their fun with the ladies, then he is just a rapist and I'm a "cultural racist" for writing this. You have to see things in perspective you know...

 

It was a typo van H. No big deal.

[van Hanegem]

It was a typo van H. No big deal.

 

I know SOG, I was trying to be sarcastic but it appears I'm not any good at it...

[sadoldgit]

I know SOG, I was trying to be sarcastic but it appears I'm not any good at it...

 

Trying to be too subtle perhaps?

[van Hanegem]

Trying to be too subtle perhaps?

 

Guess so, it made me look like von Richthoven in that classic Blackadder scene: "I love zhe British humour, allways joking about breaking zhe wind..."

From now on I'll be my blunt Dutch self.

[van Hanegem]

Bloody hell they're everywhere, there's no escape from the loonies... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22vjpKbVRVQ&nohtml5=False

[Batman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-communities-unlike-others-in-britain-former-race-equality-chief-trevor-phillips-says-a6836301.html

[JackanorySFC]

Huge report in today's Sunday Times (front cover, opinion and 8 pages in the magazine) on the research done by Sir Trevor Phillips on Muslim's attitude to Great Britain.

 

Incredibly worrying for any liberally minded individual. Well worth a read, Muslims simply do not want to integrate with the rest of the population. Full documentary on the finding on Channel 4 on Wednesday.

 

BTW - Those on here denying there is a link between muslims and gang rape/ under age grooming in northern towns with large muslim communities (Derby, Rotherham, Bradford) are an absolutely disgrace. It's this attitude that directly lead to 100's (if not 1000's) of school girls to get raped/ abused by gangs of muslim men that preyed on white girls (specifically) due to the police/ social services being too scared of racial discrimination to step in. Your "well white people rape too" attitude has literally led to girls getting raped by people that should have been locked up earlier. Well done.

[Batman]

Huge report in today's Sunday Times (front cover, opinion and 8 pages in the magazine) on the research done by Sir Trevor Phillips on Muslim's attitude to Great Britain.

 

Incredibly worrying for any liberally minded individual. Well worth a read, Muslims simply do not want to integrate with the rest of the population. Full documentary on the finding on Channel 4 on Wednesday.

 

BTW - Those on here denying there is a link between muslims and gang rape/ under age grooming in northern towns with large muslim communities (Derby, Rotherham, Bradford) are an absolutely disgrace. It's this attitude that directly lead to 100's (if not 1000's) of school girls to get raped/ abused by gangs of muslim men that preyed on white girls (specifically) due to the police/ social services being too scared of racial discrimination to step in. Your "well white people rape too" attitude has literally led to girls getting raped by people that should have been locked up earlier. Well done.

 

no doubt will be rubbished by the usual on here. you will now be called a racist for this post

[sadoldgit]

no doubt will be rubbished by the usual on here. you will now be called a racist for this post

 

You really do not get it do you?

[sadoldgit]

Huge report in today's Sunday Times (front cover, opinion and 8 pages in the magazine) on the research done by Sir Trevor Phillips on Muslim's attitude to Great Britain.

 

Incredibly worrying for any liberally minded individual. Well worth a read, Muslims simply do not want to integrate with the rest of the population. Full documentary on the finding on Channel 4 on Wednesday.

 

BTW - Those on here denying there is a link between muslims and gang rape/ under age grooming in northern towns with large muslim communities (Derby, Rotherham, Bradford) are an absolutely disgrace. It's this attitude that directly lead to 100's (if not 1000's) of school girls to get raped/ abused by gangs of muslim men that preyed on white girls (specifically) due to the police/ social services being too scared of racial discrimination to step in. Your "well white people rape too" attitude has literally led to girls getting raped by people that should have been locked up earlier. Well done.

 

What an earth has the comment regarding the obvious statement that rape isn't the preserve of Muslim men got to do with people not being charged, convicted and sentenced earlier??? I don't think you will find anyone on here who condones rape, no matter who commits it.

[sadoldgit]

Guess so, it made me look like von Richthoven in that classic Blackadder scene: "I love zhe British humour, allways joking about breaking zhe wind..."

From now on I'll be my blunt Dutch self.

 

Probably best mate, although I agree that fart gags are always welcome too!

[badgerx16]

 

Incredibly worrying for any liberally minded individual. Well worth a read, Muslims simply do not want to integrate with the rest of the population. Full documentary on the finding on Channel 4 on Wednesday.

 

 

"Fiyaz Mughal, head of the Tell Mama charity, which campaigns against Muslim hate crimes, said Mr Phillips' claims “assume Muslims have views that are inherently different to other communities.

Mr Mugal added: “There are Muslims fully integrated into our society that have a ‘world view’ that is no different to others and the only difference is that they pray five times a day.”

 

"Mr Phillips........He also branded multiculturalism as a failure, and said a black candidate cannot rise to the top in British politics because of institutional racism."

 

( From Batman's link )

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What an earth has the comment regarding the obvious statement that rape isn't the preserve of Muslim men got to do with people not being charged, convicted and sentenced earlier??? I don't think you will find anyone on here who condones rape, no matter who commits it.

 

It may be that the root cause of the problem here is that some people suffer from a form of mild cognitive disorder that manifests itself in them invariably seeing problems in simple "black or white" terms, while other (more subtle) minds respond to the complexity of the world by comprehending endless "shades of grey". If I recall correctly psychiatrists depict people who fall into the former group as "Polarised Thinkers".

 

For example, anything that is not perfect must therefore be a failure as the existance of a "middle ground" is almost inconceivable to the true polarised thinker. I suppose what we might call the - if you oppose racism then you support terrorism - attitude sometimes displayed on here falls very much into this category.

[Batman]

British Muslims are becoming a nation within a nation, the former equalities watchdog warns today.

Trevor Phillips says many hold very different values from the rest of society and want to lead separate lives.

Most worryingly, those with separatist views are far more likely to support terrorism. The former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission advocates the monitoring of ethnic minority populations on housing estates to stop them becoming ‘ghetto villages’.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

British Muslims are becoming a nation within a nation, the former equalities watchdog warns today.

Trevor Phillips says many hold very different values from the rest of society and want to lead separate lives.

Most worryingly, those with separatist views are far more likely to support terrorism. The former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission advocates the monitoring of ethnic minority populations on housing estates to stop them becoming ‘ghetto villages’.

 

Trevor Phillips is certainly a media friendly character with a consistent agenda he is invariably seeking to promote to anyone who will listen. That agenda of course is that he thinks that the concept known as 'multiculturalism' - i.e. the idea that people from wildly different backgrounds and beliefs can live together harmoniously - is a fundamentaly flawed notion and that minority populations in British Society should somehow be encouraged to adandon their culteral heritage and instead conform to a rather vague concept he defines as "Britishness".

 

I can sympathise to a degree with him here because it would be wonderful if every Brit was indeed of a like-mind in their core beliefs and attitudes - however impossibly idealistic such a notion may be. However, it seems to me that the problem with his argument is surely that one of these core "britishness" values we are all supposed to share is a respect for everyone's freedom of expression and right to follow the religion of their choice. It is also worth pointing out that during Trevor Phillips's tenure as chair of the ECHR (Equality and Human Rights Commission) this organisation was mired in endless controversy and division - problems often put down to his leadership. The House of Lords once famously described aspects of his behavour at this time as being: "inappropriate and ill-advised".

 

But there is I think a certain 'seperataness' about how many Muslims in European society see the modern world when compared to the outlook of their more 'western' (and increasing secular) minded neighbours. I suspect this difference is more pronounced in the older generation, and perhaps in newcomers from adroad, rather than it is in second or third generation British Muslims born and raised here. Indeed, judged on how some Muslims reportedly view issues such as homosexuality (for example) then I'm reminded strongly of how many of the older generation British people that I grew up with once thought.

 

It may be that British Muslims are so much a different people from other groups in society, but rather just a generation or two behind us.

[sadoldgit]

British Muslims are becoming a nation within a nation, the former equalities watchdog warns today.

Trevor Phillips says many hold very different values from the rest of society and want to lead separate lives.

Most worryingly, those with separatist views are far more likely to support terrorism. The former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission advocates the monitoring of ethnic minority populations on housing estates to stop them becoming ‘ghetto villages’.

 

Did Trevor have anything to say about Islamophobia of those who spend their days looking for negative Muslim stories on the Internet?