Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[whelk]

So the fact that they're trying to teach about anti-terrorism and non-violence to the youths in Dewsbury isn't a good thing? Ok, if you say so.

 

For the third time, there are clearly problems with some of the teachings at that place, and by the sounds of it these are quite rightly being investigated by the relevant authorities.

 

I'm confused by what you're saying about the final sentence and what it has to do with how the crimes were investigated in Rotherham? Surely better integration is a good thing?

 

Everything isn't always black and white. It's possible to condem the negatives whilst encouraging the positives.

 

You truly believe that school is helping integration?

 

The last line is about out need to want to not see bad things in other cultures so accept what is not acceptable and fear of criticising.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Hang on a minute I'm confused. Are we meant to hate homophobia, sexism, gender segregation racism because that's disgusting and has no place in a modern Britian. Or are we supposed to hate gays, treat women as second class citizens, welcome segregation, hate anyone who doesn't believe what we do because immigration is a great thing and that's what their culture is so we should make them feel welcome and embrace their culture. Its not easy being a leftie I can see why they're offended all the time when you're not sure what you should think.

 

If memory serves I'm not so sure that you ever have made much of a point about oppossing homophobia.

 

Nevertheless, I do symaptise with your sense of confusion about the sheer complexity of life in the modern multi-culteral Britain. It seems to me that immigrants arriving here must show respect for, and adapt to, this society's core (often liberal) values. It goes without saying that they, like everyone else, must also abide with UK law - or face the consequences. We on the other hand should respect their right to worship the religion of their choice and try to comprehend the different culture they come from. Where the these objectives clash then existing British law and the democratically expressed will of the majority must prevail. As ever a sense of moderaton and mutual respect is key.

 

It would be so much simplier if we could somehow go back to a point in the past where everyone in the UK followed the same religion, exhibited the same skin colour and shared a similar set of values and beliefs. We can never go back to that monoculture past for a number of reasons alas - not the least of which being that this Britain of the imaginaton never really existed in the first place!

 

Putting my amateur historian's hat on, I predict that what will happen here over time is that Britain will again successfuly absorb this latest wave of immigration just as it has done so many times in the past. Whether they be: Saxon, Viking, Jewish, Norman, Huguenot, Caribbean or Islamic - our history suggests that eventually these islands have a way of consuming newcomers and turning them into Britains. That is what I hope happens anyway because I don't see a better alternative on offer from the likes of you or Sour.

 

A future Britain that kind of resembles that famous old Coca Cola advert - if you are old enough to remember it.

[shirleysfc]

You truly believe that school is helping integration?

 

The last line is about out need to want to not see bad things in other cultures so accept what is not acceptable and fear of criticising.

 

Ok so you don't believe the guy. That's fair enough, it's your prerogative.

 

If you're trying to claim I don't want to see bad things in other cultures then, like Brett, you can't read. For the FOURTH time, there are CLEARLY issues with some of the teachings at that place. These are being investigated etc by the DoE.

 

Is the fact they are also promoting anti-terrorism and non-violence a good thing?

[whelk]

Ok so you don't believe the guy. That's fair enough, it's your prerogative.

 

If you're trying to claim I don't want to see bad things in other cultures then, like Brett, you can't read. For the FOURTH time, there are CLEARLY issues with some of the teachings at that place. These are being investigated etc by the DoE.

 

Is the fact they are also promoting anti-terrorism and non-violence a good thing?

 

Promoting anti-terrorism and non-violence? Surely that should be implied in all teachings to children across the world rather than needed and you thinking what a great thing. I like to think my kids weren't taught anything contrary at their LEA schools but you are giving so much credit.

 

You mention things not being black and white. You think kids are ever taught terrorism is a good thing at any school? No, of course not, but the segregation and clearly anti-western liberalism espoused at such schools is not going to lead to anything other than a new generation having a non-acceptance of our way of life. Once you have that as a dogma you clearly have potential for an extremist or two.

[moonraker]

If memory serves I'm not so sure that you ever have made much of a point about oppossing homophobia.

 

Nevertheless, I do symaptise with your sense of confusion about the sheer complexity of life in the modern multi-culteral Britain. It seems to me that immigrants arriving here must show respect for, and adapt to, this society's core (often liberal) values. It goes without saying that they, like everyone else, must also abide with UK law - or face the consequences. We on the other hand should respect their right to worship the religion of their choice and try to comprehend the different culture they come from. Where the these objectives clash then existing British law and the democratically expressed will of the majority must prevail. As ever a sense of moderaton and mutual respect is key.

 

It would be so much simplier if we could somehow go back to a point in the past where everyone in the UK followed the same religion, exhibited the same skin colour and shared a similar set of values and beliefs. We can never go back to that monoculture past for a number of reasons alas - not the least of which being that this Britain of the imaginaton never really existed in the first place!

 

Putting my amateur historian's hat on, I predict that what will happen here over time is that Britain will again successfuly absorb this latest wave of immigration just as it has done so many times in the past. Whether they be: Saxon, Viking, Jewish, Norman, Huguenot, Caribbean or Islamic - our history suggests that eventually these islands have a way of consuming newcomers and turning them into Britains. That is what I hope happens anyway because I don't see a better alternative on offer from the likes of you or Sour.

 

A future Britain that kind of resembles that famous old Coca Cola advert - if you are old enough to remember it.

The best post on this thread by far, no insults, no silly links, no pedantry, just brilliant.

[shirleysfc]

Promoting anti-terrorism and non-violence? Surely that should be implied in all teachings to children across the world rather than needed and you thinking what a great thing. I like to think my kids weren't taught anything contrary at their LEA schools but you are giving so much credit.

 

You mention things not being black and white. You think kids are ever taught terrorism is a good thing at any school? No, of course not, but the segregation and clearly anti-western liberalism espoused at such schools is not going to lead to anything other than a new generation having a non-acceptance of our way of life. Once you have that as a dogma you clearly have potential for an extremist or two.

 

Admittedly I don't know what level of anti-terrorism teaching there is in standard LEA schools, but Batman's article implies this place is doing extra. In an area such as Dewsbury, which has had its issues in the past, this surely has to be a good thing?

 

However, there are also clearly issues with some of the teachings at this place. These have been identified and are being investigated. I'm not sure how many more times I can say the same thing.

 

The Department for Education told us: "These serious allegations are under investigation. While it would be inappropriate to comment on the specific investigations of these institutions, we are clear that extremism has no place in our society and we are determined to protect children from it."

[Sour Mash]

Admittedly I don't know what level of anti-terrorism teaching there is in standard LEA schools, but Batman's article implies this place is doing extra. In an area such as Dewsbury, which has had its issues in the past, this surely has to be a good thing?

 

However, there are also clearly issues with some of the teachings at this place. These have been identified and are being investigated. I'm not sure how many more times I can say the same thing.

 

The Department for Education told us: "These serious allegations are under investigation. While it would be inappropriate to comment on the specific investigations of these institutions, we are clear that extremism has no place in our society and we are determined to protect children from it."

If you actually red the article it says;

 

"Mufti Zubair Dudha, the centre's founder and head, is a respected cleric from the orthodox Deobandi sect which is thought to control half of all mosques and madrasas in the UK."

 

"Other leaflets and newsletters, some of which are distributed to Deobandi mosques, say all mixed-sex institutions are evil, warn Muslims not to adopt British customs, ban the watching of TV, and tell women not to go out to work and to be fully covered before leaving the house."

 

and to finish off

 

"In a section on jihad he tells Muslims they should be prepared to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order".

[shirleysfc]

If you actually red the article it says;

 

"Mufti Zubair Dudha, the centre's founder and head, is a respected cleric from the orthodox Deobandi sect which is thought to control half of all mosques and madrasas in the UK."

 

"Other leaflets and newsletters, some of which are distributed to Deobandi mosques, say all mixed-sex institutions are evil, warn Muslims not to adopt British customs, ban the watching of TV, and tell women not to go out to work and to be fully covered before leaving the house."

 

and to finish off

 

"In a section on jihad he tells Muslims they should be prepared to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order".

 

And your point is what? I've said repeatedly there are issues with some of the teachings. The article also says the place is (correctly) being investigated.

[Sour Mash]

And your point is what? I've said repeatedly there are issues with some of the teachings. The article also says the place is (correctly) being investigated.

You think that handing out leaflets saying "In a section on jihad he tells Muslims they should be prepared to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order" is being against terrorism?

[shirleysfc]

You think that handing out leaflets saying "In a section on jihad he tells Muslims they should be prepared to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order" is being against terrorism?

 

No, but the article also says "Deobandis believe in a highly orthodox spiritual version of Islam and Mr Dudha also produces leaflets condemning terrorism and advocating non-violence. Dewsbury has a history of disaffected youth becoming radicalised and was home to Britain's youngest suicide bomber, its youngest convicted terrorist, and one of the 7/7 bombers."

 

As I said, there are clearly issues with some of the teachings. These have been identified (and I assume with be dealt with) by the relevant authorities.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You think that handing out leaflets saying "In a section on jihad he tells Muslims they should be prepared to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order" is being against terrorism?

 

I dare say that very few would argue that so called' Faith Schools' that promote religious extremism are not a problem in society. Again, it seems necessary to point out to you that this issue has been identified and is being addressed - successfully I hope.

 

So if you are attempting to make some deeper point here - let alone offer a solution to problems any fool could identify - then that remains unclear.

[Sour Mash]

No, but the article also says "Deobandis believe in a highly orthodox spiritual version of Islam and Mr Dudha also produces leaflets condemning terrorism and advocating non-violence. Dewsbury has a history of disaffected youth becoming radicalised and was home to Britain's youngest suicide bomber, its youngest convicted terrorist, and one of the 7/7 bombers."

 

As I said, there are clearly issues with some of the teachings. These have been identified (and I assume with be dealt with) by the relevant authorities.

What did the leaflets against terrorism say, that ran counter to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order"?

[Sour Mash]

I dare say that very few would argue that so called' Faith Schools' that promote religious extremism are not a problem in society. Again, it seems necessary to point out to you that this issue has been identified and is being addressed - successfully I hope.

 

So if you are attempting to make some deeper point here - let alone offer a solution to problems any fool could identify - then that remains unclear.

Why do I need to make a deeper point? Why is the fact that schools ran by muslim moderates are educating in this way not an issue for you?

[shirleysfc]

What did the leaflets against terrorism say, that ran counter to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order"?

 

No idea. Maybe you should take this up with Sky News who reported on them in the first place.

[Sour Mash]

No idea. Maybe you should take this up with Sky News who reported on them in the first place.

Right, so we've got nothing that runs contrary to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order"? Who knows what actually encouraging extremism and terrorism would look in your eyes.

[Verbal]

No, but the article also says "Deobandis believe in a highly orthodox spiritual version of Islam and Mr Dudha also produces leaflets condemning terrorism and advocating non-violence. Dewsbury has a history of disaffected youth becoming radicalised and was home to Britain's youngest suicide bomber, its youngest convicted terrorist, and one of the 7/7 bombers."

 

As I said, there are clearly issues with some of the teachings. These have been identified (and I assume with be dealt with) by the relevant authorities.

 

The article is nonsensical on its definition of Deobandism though. It is certainly not "a highly orthodox spiritual version of Islam." It is explicitly hostile to the spiritualist traditions in mainstream Sufism (the latter which is actually the dominant form of the religion in Pakistan). It's a slightly watered down version of Wahhabism, and was a direct Islamist reaction to the 1857 uprising against the British which finally put paid to the Mughal empire.

 

One thing the article does get right is this:

 

In a disastrous irony, the pro-Islamist left has ended up in the same place as the white far-right. The perception of Muslims as synonymous with Islamism - criticism of Islamism is characterised as criticism of Muslims - is precisely the view taken by groups such as the EDL.

 

There is most certainly a Corbynist attitude that Islamism can be included as among liberation ideologies against the imperialist West (and therefore all Muslims as natural allies with this) - which is the mirror image of the extreme-right racists' garbage that Muslims are synonymous with Islamism.

 

As I've said many times, it's liberal Islam in all its forms that needs defending - and both the far-left's and the far-right's feeble-minded equivalences merely wave on the extremists. This makes dubious and gullible individuals like Sour Mash as much cheerleaders for Islamic extremism as any Corbynista.

[shirleysfc]

Right, so we've got nothing that runs contrary to "expend ... even life" to create a world organised "according to Allah's just order"? Who knows what actually encouraging extremism and terrorism would look in your eyes.

 

I've said, many times, that there is clearly issues with some of their teachings. It also appears that, quite rightly, these are being investigated and dealt with. Which part of this do you struggle to understand?

 

Sky News felt that the anti-terrorism material was worth including in the report. I'm guessing that if it actually encouraged terrorism the report may have mentioned it, no?

[moonraker]

The article is nonsensical on its definition of Deobandism though. It is certainly not "a highly orthodox spiritual version of Islam." It is explicitly hostile to the spiritualist traditions in mainstream Sufism (the latter which is actually the dominant form of the religion in Pakistan). It's a slightly watered down version of Wahhabism, and was a direct Islamist reaction to the 1857 uprising against the British which finally put paid to the Mughal empire.

 

One thing the article does get right is this:

 

 

 

There is most certainly a Corbynist attitude that Islamism can be included as among liberation ideologies against the imperialist West (and therefore all Muslims as natural allies with this) - which is the mirror image of the extreme-right racists' garbage that Muslims are synonymous with Islamism.

 

As I've said many times, it's liberal Islam in all its forms that needs defending - and both the far-left's and the far-right's feeble-minded equivalences merely wave on the extremists. This makes dubious and gullible individuals like Sour Mash as much cheerleaders for Islamic extremism as any Corbynista.

 

Thank you, once again you provide the informed and mature understanding of these very complex issues. Sadly the myopic will still want to simplify everything and want to know when the backlash is coming, why Muslims run the labour party and what is going to be done about this or that and they will continue sight cherry picked examples of practises and behaviours that are in one or more ways, distasteful, unacceptable or illegal, and dogmatically failing to accept that it is universally acknowledged their are real issues, as there are in all cultures, but that does not excuse the blanket condemnation of a whole religion.

Edited 1 April, 2016 by moonraker

[Sour Mash]

I've said, many times, that there is clearly issues with some of their teachings. It also appears that, quite rightly, these are being investigated and dealt with. Which part of this do you struggle to understand?

 

Sky News felt that the anti-terrorism material was worth including in the report. I'm guessing that if it actually encouraged terrorism the report may have mentioned it, no?

Just interesting that you highlight and promote a statement with no detail behind it that they produced leaflets against terrorism, but ignore the leaflets that they actually detail that support jihad, just strange that's all.

[shirleysfc]

Just interesting that you highlight and promote a statement with no detail behind it that they produced leaflets against terrorism, but ignore the leaflets that they actually detail that support jihad, just strange that's all.

 

Ok then. You're either on a wind-up or can't read.

[Sour Mash]

Ok then. You're either on a wind-up or can't read.

You were the one who chose not to read their support of Jihad.

[shirleysfc]

You were the one who chose not to read their support of Jihad.

 

Nope, I said there is clearly issues with their teachings.

[Dig Dig]

Thank you, once again you provide the informed and mature understanding of these very complex issues. Sadly the myopic will still want to simplify everything and want to know when the backlash is coming, why Muslims run the labour party and what is going to be done about this or that and they will continue sight cherry picked examples of practises and behaviours that are in one or more of, distasteful, unacceptable or illegal, and dogmatically failing to accept that we acknowledge their are real issues, as there are in all cultures, but that does not excuse the blanket condemnation of a whole religion.

 

Simply put, there is a movement throughout Western Europe based on extreme teachings of Islam and as such, there will always be examples of this which can be found. Currently, the trend is to recruit young men from generally impoverished and isolated communities (around half of those from Moroccan descent in Belgium for example live in relative poverty) who have generally lived the lives of criminals and shown little or no applications of the teachings of Islam or any other religion. The draw of ISIS appears to be as a vessel to commit violence, get recognition and access to power which they can't get otherwise. Any means of indoctrination and recruitment must not be tolerated and weeded out systematically. But this is complex issue and not one which is easily solved. Those with views which generalise entire populations of people as a result though do nothing but add fuel to the flames in the same way as those who turn the other cheek or try to brush the damage of radical Islam under the carpet.

 

Sour Mash has made his views perfectly clear on this thread. He see's the contribution of Muslims in Europe to equal nothing more than rape gangs and terrorists which is quite sad really. It's this type of EDL marching rhetoric which will only further cause isolation, hatred and moves the prospect of more integration of "values" even further away.

 

There are more Muslims who are happy to practice their religion within Western culture than there are those who want to systematically take over the world and kill and enslave all the "non-believers" yet it seems some don't want to or like acknowledging that.

Edited 1 April, 2016 by Dig Dig

[Sour Mash]

So the fact that they're trying to teach about anti-terrorism and non-violence to the youths in Dewsbury isn't a good thing? Ok, if you say so.

 

Nope, I said there is clearly issues with their teachings.

You said they are trying to teach about anti terrorism, yet their leaflets support jihad. Which one is it?

[Sour Mash]

 

Sour Mash has made his views perfectly clear on this thread. He see's the contribution of Muslims in Europe to equal nothing more than rape gangs and terrorists which is quite sad really.

 

There are more Muslims who are happy to practice their religion within Western culture than there are those who want to systematically take over the world and kill and enslave all the "non-believers" yet it seems some don't want to or like acknowledging that.

No-one has said any of those things.

 

Unlucky champ, well done for trying though.

[moonraker]

Just interesting that you highlight and promote a statement with no detail behind it that they produced leaflets against terrorism, but ignore the leaflets that they actually detail that support jihad, just strange that's all.

 

As one who is so keen to ensure literal precision are you now proposing that Muslims may not comply with the ‘religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion’ the original and proper meaning of Jihad. I know the word has been hijacked and reinterpreted by some to mean violent struggle, but you of all people would surely refute that based on your well documented exactitude in matters of word definition. Should we therefore take a similar view of all Christians as the bible says ‘GOD Almighty Commanded His followers to fight for His Holy Cause’. It is men (predominantly) that have interpreted and bent these holy scriptures to their own non-religious malevolent ends.

[Sour Mash]

As one who is so keen to ensure literal precision are you now proposing that Muslims may not comply with the ‘religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion’ the original and proper meaning of Jihad. I know the word has been hijacked and reinterpreted by some to mean violent struggle, but you of all people would surely refute that based on your well documented exactitude in matters of word definition. Should we therefore take a similar view of all Christians as the bible says ‘GOD Almighty Commanded His followers to fight for His Holy Cause’. It is men (predominantly) that have interpreted and bent these holy scriptures to their own non-religious malevolent ends.

Stick up a Christian school promoting religious war and I'll happily criticise. Don't know if I'll manage to be as critical as you have been about this school though, that would take some going.

[Dig Dig]

No-one has said any of those things.

 

Unlucky champ, well done for trying though.

 

Of course not champ

[shirleysfc]

You said they are trying to teach about anti terrorism, yet their leaflets support jihad. Which one is it?

 

According the article, both.

 

It clearly states they produce leaflets which are anti-terrorism and non-violence, yes? I think it's fair to assume that Sky News have researched these and they are actually anti-terrorism and non-violence.

 

It also highlights clear issues with some of their teachings/leaflets, which are being investigated etc.

 

Get it?

[Sour Mash]

According the article, both.

 

It clearly states they produce leaflets which are anti-terrorism and non-violence, yes? I think it's fair to assume that Sky News have researched these and they are actually anti-terrorism and non-violence.

 

It also highlights clear issues with some of their teachings/leaflets, which are being investigated etc.

 

Get it?

I do. Just wasn't sure why you were focusing on the leaflets you had no details on, and not the leaflets you did have the details on.

[shirleysfc]

I do. Just wasn't sure why you were focusing on the leaflets you had no details on, and not the leaflets you did have the details on.

 

Because I wrongly assumed it was obvious which parts of the article raised concerns. It appears I gave you too much credit.

 

Just out of interest, what do you think is in the anti-terrorism leaflets?

[Sour Mash]

Because I wrongly assumed it was obvious which parts of the article raised concerns. It appears I gave you too much credit.

 

Just out of interest, what do you think is in the anti-terrorism leaflets?

No idea, don't know what was said on them.

[van Hanegem]

If memory serves I'm not so sure that you ever have made much of a point about oppossing homophobia.

 

Nevertheless, I do symaptise with your sense of confusion about the sheer complexity of life in the modern multi-culteral Britain. It seems to me that immigrants arriving here must show respect for, and adapt to, this society's core (often liberal) values. It goes without saying that they, like everyone else, must also abide with UK law - or face the consequences. We on the other hand should respect their right to worship the religion of their choice and try to comprehend the different culture they come from. Where the these objectives clash then existing British law and the democratically expressed will of the majority must prevail. As ever a sense of moderaton and mutual respect is key.

 

It would be so much simplier if we could somehow go back to a point in the past where everyone in the UK followed the same religion, exhibited the same skin colour and shared a similar set of values and beliefs. We can never go back to that monoculture past for a number of reasons alas - not the least of which being that this Britain of the imaginaton never really existed in the first place!

 

Putting my amateur historian's hat on, I predict that what will happen here over time is that Britain will again successfuly absorb this latest wave of immigration just as it has done so many times in the past. Whether they be: Saxon, Viking, Jewish, Norman, Huguenot, Caribbean or Islamic - our history suggests that eventually these islands have a way of consuming newcomers and turning them into Britains. That is what I hope happens anyway because I don't see a better alternative on offer from the likes of you or Sour.

 

A future Britain that kind of resembles that famous old Coca Cola advert - if you are old enough to remember it.

 

Nice post Chapel End Charlie, I would like to dream along with you but I'm afraid the nightmare around us is keeping me awake...

Did you read Ben Judah's "This is London, Life and Death in the World City"? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/this-is-london-by-ben-judah-review-astonishing-and-valuable/) It gave me the impression that your capital is going back to the times described by Charles Dickens instead of some old Coca Cola advert. And there's no law or government to prevent this.

 

Speaking of which, why are Sharia Councils admitted in England by your government and justice institutions? I know they are only allowed to rule on matrimonial affairs but what the heck? I read this article in a Dutch magazine (https://www.vn.nl/zo-werken-de-shariaraden-in-engeland/) and as it is in Dutch I'll translate the opening of the article for you in which a case about a divorce (asked by a muslima) is witnessed:

 

Husband: I believed that muslims in a non-islamic country should abide the laws of the land they live in?

Quadi: We have the islam, worldly courts don't have islamic laws, can a kafir (infidel) judge on islamic affairs?

Husband: No

Quadi: Is marriage an act of worship?

Husband: Yes

Qadi: Can a non-muslim say: "I, John who don't believe in God, I'll allow you this divorce?

Husband: No

 

Is this the way the British are trying to comprehend or deal with the different culture they come from? Do you accept this kind of parallel society?

[Batman]

what chance of trying to stop the blatant segregation and sexism when the wanna be labour mayor of london is publically saying there are too many 'white people' working for TFL

 

such obvious racism being accepted.!!!

 

guess just part and parcel of a new, modern, left leaning UK

[shirleysfc]

what chance of trying to stop the blatant segregation and sexism when the wanna be labour mayor of london is publically saying there are too many 'white people' working for TFL

 

such obvious racism being accepted.!!!

 

guess just part and parcel of a new, modern, left leaning UK

 

Or not...

 

"There are currently 13 white men on the Transport for London board and just three women. Khan said he would ensure the board better reflected the "diversity" of Londoners if he becomes mayor.

 

"I will reshape TfL's board," he said during a speech in Brixton this morning.

 

"It needs to better reflect London's diversity in the interest of Londoners. Did you know there are 16 people on the board of TfL?"

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/03/30/sadiq-khan-there-are-too-many-white-men-on-transport-for-lon

[Batman]

Or not...

 

"There are currently 13 white men on the Transport for London board and just three women. Khan said he would ensure the board better reflected the "diversity" of Londoners if he becomes mayor.

 

"I will reshape TfL's board," he said during a speech in Brixton this morning.

 

"It needs to better reflect London's diversity in the interest of Londoners. Did you know there are 16 people on the board of TfL?"

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/03/30/sadiq-khan-there-are-too-many-white-men-on-transport-for-lon

 

16 but too many of the wrong colour

[shirleysfc]

16 but too many of the wrong colour

 

Hahahaha - are you actually trying to claim that him saying the board should be more diverse is racist?? I guess if he wants more females on the board too it's sexist against men...?

[Batman]

Hahahaha - are you actually trying to claim that him saying the board should be more diverse is racist?? I guess if he wants more females on the board too it's sexist against men...?

 

I think he should say the best people should do the job based on their abilities. Not anything else

imagine if southampton city council came out and said, far too many minorities on the board *of what ever public service*...we want them out to make it more white.......would not go down well with you I suspect

[shirleysfc]

I think he should say the best people should do the job based on their abilities. Not anything else

imagine if southampton city council came out and said, far too many minorities on the board *of what ever public service*...we want them out to make it more white.......would not go down well with you I suspect

 

But they wouldn't and it's not even remotely similar to what he said.

 

You are priceless!! According to you diversity is now racist/sexist... Hahahaha.

Edited 1 April, 2016 by shirleysfc

[Batman]

You are priceless!! According to you diversity is now racist/sexist... Hahahaha.

 

do you think it would be fair to sack someone for no other reason than the colour of their skin?

or, turn someone down for a job vacancy for the very same reason?

[shirleysfc]

do you think it would be fair to sack someone for no other reason than the colour of their skin?

 

No, of course not. Do you think that diversity policies are racist, sexist or homophobic?

[Batman]

No, of course not. Do you think that diversity policies are racist, sexist or homophobic?

 

I think any policy that discriminates either way is no good. People should be in place for no other reason than their ability. regardless of colour, creed, eating habits, religion, football team supported, shoe size.

 

as opposed to fill quotas for political points

[shirleysfc]

I think any policy that discriminates either way is no good. People should be in place for no other reason than their ability. regardless of colour, creed, eating habits, religion, football team supported, shoe size.

 

as opposed to fill quotas for political points

 

I hate to break this to you, but if you have a problem with diversity policies/agendas then you have a problem with every major organisation in the uk. Including the current government.

[Verbal]

I think any policy that discriminates either way is no good. People should be in place for no other reason than their ability. regardless of colour, creed, eating habits, religion, football team supported, shoe size.

 

as opposed to fill quotas for political points

 

You're confused. There is a distinction between positive discrimination and diversity policies.

 

Positive discrimination is illegal in this country. Not that you'd think so. While it is just as illegal to discriminate in favour of, say, a young black woman as it is a middle-aged white man, the latter, in vast disproportion, occupy the commanding positions in banks, companies and government departments. And that's quite aside from salary discrimination in favour of white men.

 

Diversity and equality policies, including the 2010 Equality Act, aim to combat that positive discrimination - which is a good thing, wouldn't you say?

[Batman]

I hate to break this to you, but if you have a problem with diversity policies/agendas then you have a problem with every major organisation in the uk. Including the current government.

 

fair enough, guess you would be content to lose out on a job because of the colour of your skin.

each to their own

[shirleysfc]

fair enough, guess you would be content to lose out on a job because of the colour of your skin.

each to their own

 

Not comparable. We're talking about the board of a government organisation. Keep trying.

[aintforever]

Hahahaha - are you actually trying to claim that him saying the board should be more diverse is racist?? I guess if he wants more females on the board too it's sexist against men...?

 

To be fair if he's sacking board members because of the colour of their skin or sex it is.

[shirleysfc]

To be fair if he's sacking board members because of the colour of their skin or sex it is.

 

Other than Batman, who's said anything about sacking people?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Nice post Chapel End Charlie, I would like to dream along with you but I'm afraid the nightmare around us is keeping me awake...

Did you read Ben Judah's "This is London, Life and Death in the World City"? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/this-is-london-by-ben-judah-review-astonishing-and-valuable/) It gave me the impression that your capital is going back to the times described by Charles Dickens instead of some old Coca Cola advert. And there's no law or government to prevent this.

 

Speaking of which, why are Sharia Councils admitted in England by your government and justice institutions? I know they are only allowed to rule on matrimonial affairs but what the heck? I read this article in a Dutch magazine (https://www.vn.nl/zo-werken-de-shariaraden-in-engeland/) and as it is in Dutch I'll translate the opening of the article for you in which a case about a divorce (asked by a muslima) is witnessed:

P

Husband: I believed that muslims in a non-islamic country should abide the laws of the land they live in?

Quadi: We have the islam, worldly courts don't have islamic laws, can a kafir (infidel) judge on islamic affairs?

Husband: No

Quadi: Is marriage an act of worship?

Husband: Yes

Qadi: Can a non-muslim say: "I, John who don't believe in God, I'll allow you this divorce?

Husband: No

 

Is this the way the British are trying to comprehend or deal with the different culture they come from? Do you accept this kind of parallel society?

 

Well I don't remember claiming that modern British society has yet achieved that vision of idealised harmony we saw back in the old Cola advert. Neither do I recall saying that the process of assimilating new generations of immigration into British society is bound to be some quick and relativly painless expierence. Far from it.

 

What I do say is that it is indeed possible for people from (very) different backgrounds and religious beliefs to live and work together peacefully - I base that claim not only on the study of the long history of these islands, but also from what I see happening in my very own family today. I have not alas read the specific book you mention.

 

There are exceptions of course, but I have to inform you that most British Muslims I have encountered in my life neither seek, nor methinks would wish, to live in what you describe as a "parallel society". The majority respect the values and traditions of this nation, are generaly law-abiding, hard working and want little more than to be left alone to get on with their lives - so just like the rest of us then.

 

But if you have some thought-out proposal for the creation of a better and more socially cohesive future for Britain and Europe - one that doesn't result in segregation, seeing yet more children drowning in the Medditerrean, and the construction of a Sparkhill Ghetto perhaps, then I shall of course be happy to consider the matter.

[Sour Mash]

Nice post Chapel End Charlie, I would like to dream along with you but I'm afraid the nightmare around us is keeping me awake...

Did you read Ben Judah's "This is London, Life and Death in the World City"? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/this-is-london-by-ben-judah-review-astonishing-and-valuable/) It gave me the impression that your capital is going back to the times described by Charles Dickens instead of some old Coca Cola advert. And there's no law or government to prevent this.

 

Speaking of which, why are Sharia Councils admitted in England by your government and justice institutions? I know they are only allowed to rule on matrimonial affairs but what the heck? I read this article in a Dutch magazine (https://www.vn.nl/zo-werken-de-shariaraden-in-engeland/) and as it is in Dutch I'll translate the opening of the article for you in which a case about a divorce (asked by a muslima) is witnessed:

 

Husband: I believed that muslims in a non-islamic country should abide the laws of the land they live in?

Quadi: We have the islam, worldly courts don't have islamic laws, can a kafir (infidel) judge on islamic affairs?

Husband: No

Quadi: Is marriage an act of worship?

Husband: Yes

Qadi: Can a non-muslim say: "I, John who don't believe in God, I'll allow you this divorce?

Husband: No

 

Is this the way the British are trying to comprehend or deal with the different culture they come from? Do you accept this kind of parallel society?

What you need to remember is that there are posters on here that think terrorism, anti-Semitism, gender segregation, the encouragement of jihad are all a price worth paying for the Islamic takeover of our towns and cities.