Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[sadoldgit]

Why can't you comment or answer yourself?

 

I can and have, it is just that neither of them seem to bother to respond to clearly islamophobic comments and this presented a golden opportunity to do so.

[Sour Mash]

I have seen plenty of condemnation including a peace march by Muslims in London not long after the Paris atrocities, not that it was given much coverage in the news. It is there if you care to look for it, unless you are Katie Hopkins of course.

Backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." Not a handful of people on a procession that happens every year anyway.

[Sour Mash]

I can and have, it is just that neither of them seem to bother to respond to clearly islamophobic comments and this presented a golden opportunity to do so.

Why is it clearly Islamophobic to point out a fact?

[Johnny Bognor]

Katie Hopkins made some comments a while back that she thought that not enough Muslims were coming out and condemning the atrocities. I made a comment about it on here to the effect of how many is enough because clearly there is a backlash from the moderate Muslims, but clearly not from enough of them to satisfy her. Unfortunately it then became more important to debate whether she was a Christian or not - which still seems to be bothering one of our number more than the bile that she spouts.

 

Not having a pop at you soggy, just questionning why I was brought to task by the self-appointed thread police for daring to move away from the topic, which is strictly limited to 2nd and 3rd generation home grown terrorists. Seems a bit unfair that I get brought to task for widening the debate to include all Islamic Terrorism, whilst others debate the Katie Hopkins effect, Adolf Hitlers Christian credentials and the Bosnian conflict.

[shirleysfc]

There has been no "backlash" from the moderate muslims.

 

Plenty of Muslims, Muslim organisations and faith leaders spoke out after the atrocities in Paris and Brussels. Maybe they weren't reported on in the websites/papers you read?

 

http://m.euronews.com/en/328098/

 

http://www.bna.bh/portal/en/news/717832

 

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/World/2016/Mar-23/343617-turkey-gulf-arab-states-condemn-brussels-attacks.ashx

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

[hypochondriac]

even moderate muslims are a good bet to display values that go against western ones.

the acceptance of segragation/sexism from that culture, here in the UK is alarming for one.

 

I'm not sure that's entirely true. I suppose it depends what your definition of moderate is. There is a regressive element within Muslim communities for definite but I wouldn't know how widespread that actually is. I don't think it's fair to say there has be no demonstrations from sections of Muslim society against terrorism because there certainly has been.

[hypochondriac]

C B Fry or hypo, would you like to comment?

 

Ah sweet. I'm perfectly capable of replying myself thanks.

[Sour Mash]

Plenty of Muslims, Muslim organisations and faith leaders spoke out after the atrocities in Paris and Brussels. Maybe they weren't reported on in the websites/papers you read?

 

http://m.euronews.com/en/328098/

 

http://www.bna.bh/portal/en/news/717832

 

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/World/2016/Mar-23/343617-turkey-gulf-arab-states-condemn-brussels-attacks.ashx

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

That's not a backlash.

[Sour Mash]

Anyone know if the people that arranged this meeting are moderates or not? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11581329/Senior-Labour-politicians-Liam-Byrne-and-Tom-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html

[shirleysfc]

That's not a backlash.

 

Ok - what do you want them to do?

[Sour Mash]

Ok - what do you want them to do?

Its not really up to what I want them to do, I was just pointing out where Sad Old Git was wrong when he said there had "clearly been a backlash".

 

Full integration into Western Society, driving the extremist elements out would be a start of course, but I won't hold my breath.

[whelk]

What is bizarre is the way that you try and twist something in order to try and make yourself look superior. I have never claimed that the activities of the terrorists were not evil. I also am aware that they are not the only people who carry, or have carried out atrocities over time, something that seems to be a problem for you. Still, you defended a poll in The Sun that was spun in a way to show moderate Muslims in a bad light so I guess that says it all. I suppose The West is completely blameless for the current situation and the Gulf War and the desire for oil has nothing do with where we are now? Still, you and your apprentice have an odd set of priorities. I'd rather be laughed at that be an Internet troll.

 

You seem to have this persecution complex and assume a gang are gunning for you. You are suggesting Fry isn't fair as he doesn't agree with you and mocks you mercilessly but at no point does he come across as some right wing islamaphobia thug but you are quick to see islamaphobia with people and proclaim endlessly about how moderate you are. I don't deliberately pick on you and welcome your comments but don't make this about good and bad. People do disagree with you.

 

You have gone off on one again here mentioning oil and stuff. And you had a thing for Hopkins no one else.

 

Loathe for me to agree with Sour Mash but I am with him on the backlash thing - it isn't apparent. Of course much of Fleet St has and agenda but Beeb and Guardian not so much, and an opposing one, respectively.

[sadoldgit]

Fry and I have quite a long history, I will leave it at that. I made a comment about Hopkins but my point was more to do with the Muslim backlash and it wasn't me that made a huge deal about it. I was just responding to other comments. Hypo brings it up every now and again as it seems to amuse him. As As for the backlash, I have seen plenty of condemnation from the moderates but I suppose it depends on what you consider what is enough? What has it got to do with the blokes in the curry house for example? Do they need to fly the tricolour or the Belgium flag in solidarity? I know I am being glib but it hasn't got anything to do with the majority of Muslims so why should they feel the need to apologise or distance themselves from a bunch of nutters? As I said, there was a Muslim peace march in London a while back that was given very little media coverage. There may be a lot more going on that we don't hear about, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

Oh, and there are ways of disagreeing with people that don't have to be personal or unpleasant.

Edited 30 March, 2016 by sadoldgit

[sadoldgit]

Not having a pop at you soggy, just questionning why I was brought to task by the self-appointed thread police for daring to move away from the topic, which is strictly limited to 2nd and 3rd generation home grown terrorists. Seems a bit unfair that I get brought to task for widening the debate to include all Islamic Terrorism, whilst others debate the Katie Hopkins effect, Adolf Hitlers Christian credentials and the Bosnian conflict.

 

Blimey, if I had a quid for every time that a thread went off topic I'd be minted!

[hypochondriac]

Fry and I have quite a long history, I will leave it at that. I made a comment about Hopkins but my point was more to do with the Muslim backlash and it wasn't me that made a huge deal about it. I was just responding to other comments. Hypo brings it up every now and again as it seems to amuse him. As As for the backlash, I have seen plenty of condemnation from the moderates but I suppose it depends on what you consider what is enough? What has it got to do with the blokes in the curry house for example? Do they need to fly the tricolour or the Belgium flag in solidarity? I know I am being glib but it hasn't got anything to do with the majority of Muslims so why should they feel the need to apologise or distance themselves from a bunch of nutters? As I said, there was a Muslim peace march in London a while back that was given very little media coverage. There may be a lot more going on that we don't hear about, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

Look at you rewriting history. I assure you that you were the one making a big deal out of the Hopkins thing. I certainly wouldn't have brought her or her faith up as I have zero interest in anything she has to say. The idea that you considered her a Christian for among other reasons because she claimed she was Jesus is utterly absurd though and worth highlighting repeatedly to underline your lack of understanding regarding religion.

 

The rest of your post- astoundingly- I agree with.

[sadoldgit]

Ok - what do you want them to do?

 

This is the point isn't it? What are people supposed to do? It has nothing to do with them. They have no responsibility for the actions of a minority of nutters. We shouldn't forget that Muslims are also victims in some of the indiscriminate killing that goes on. About 60 were killed in 9/11 alone.

[Sour Mash]

Fry and I have quite a long history, I will leave it at that. I made a comment about Hopkins but my point was more to do with the Muslim backlash and it wasn't me that made a huge deal about it. I was just responding to other comments. Hypo brings it up every now and again as it seems to amuse him. As As for the backlash, I have seen plenty of condemnation from the moderates but I suppose it depends on what you consider what is enough? What has it got to do with the blokes in the curry house for example? Do they need to fly the tricolour or the Belgium flag in solidarity? I know I am being glib but it hasn't got anything to do with the majority of Muslims so why should they feel the need to apologise or distance themselves from a bunch of nutters? As I said, there was a Muslim peace march in London a while back that was given very little media coverage. There may be a lot more going on that we don't hear about, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

Oh, and there are ways of disagreeing with people that don't have to be personal or unpleasant.

You said that clearly there was a backlash from moderate muslims, you made that up.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You said that clearly there was a backlash from moderate muslims, you made that up.

 

Oh really?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

[hypochondriac]

You said that clearly there was a backlash from moderate muslims, you made that up.

 

I absolutely hate defending someone like soggy but that seems like a silly comment considering there have clearly been events and protests against the actions of the terrorists. You could argue that more could have been done but not that there has been no reaction at all.

[Sour Mash]

I absolutely hate defending someone like soggy but that seems like a silly comment considering there have clearly been events and protests against the actions of the terrorists. You could argue that more could have been done but not that there has been no reaction at all.

No-one has said there has been no reaction at all.

 

There hasn't been a backlash, which is what he stated.

[CB Fry]

Oh really?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

 

The sad thing is that if that march was stormed by a load of EDL fu ckwits and it all kicked off, that would be news.

[Sour Mash]

Oh really?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

Yes, really. That wasn't even a march organised for protesting against terrorism, but well done for trying

 

Is that all you've got? More UK muslims have gone to join Isis than went on that march, just to put it in some context for you.

[hypochondriac]

No-one has said there has been no reaction at all.

 

There hasn't been a backlash, which is what he stated.

 

Just looked up the definition of backlash and came up with this :

 

"An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event:"

 

Seems pretty clear to me that description is exactly what has happened in the case of some of these marches and protests.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, really. That wasn't even a march organised for protesting against terrorism, but well done for trying

 

Is that all you've got? More UK muslims have gone to join Isis than went on that march, just to put it in some context for you.

 

It may be a small reaction compared to the total number within the Muslim community and I agree there is definitely an argument that more could be done but there has undeniably been some form of backlash- even if it's not a particularly big one.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

No-one has said there has been no reaction at all.

 

There hasn't been a backlash, which is what he stated.

 

I see.

 

So this march in London carried out by Muslim citizens calling for "peace and unity" differs from a backlash against terrorism in what way?

[Sour Mash]

Just looked up the definition of backlash and came up with this :

 

"An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event:"

 

Seems pretty clear to me that description is exactly what has happened in the case of some of these marches and protests.

Put up the link to the antagonistic marches?

[CB Fry]

What is bizarre is the way that you try and twist something in order to try and make yourself look superior. I have never claimed that the activities of the terrorists were not evil. I also am aware that they are not the only people who carry, or have carried out atrocities over time, something that seems to be a problem for you. Still, you defended a poll in The Sun that was spun in a way to show moderate Muslims in a bad light so I guess that says it all. I suppose The West is completely blameless for the current situation and the Gulf War and the desire for oil has nothing do with where we are now? Still, you and your apprentice have an odd set of priorities. I'd rather be laughed at that be an Internet troll.

 

I don't need to twist things when you come out with utter rubbish like this.

 

As whelk rightly says, you are absolutely desperate to see Islamaphobia in anyone and everyone on this forum so you can puff yourself up as some courageous "moderate" fighting the good fight. All we ever get from you is primary-school level stating of the bleeding obvious but delivered in such a way that you'd think you were Emmeline frigging Pankhurst.

 

No one thinks all Muslims are terrorists but you are desperate to pretend people here do.

 

No one thinks other religions don't have a history (and present) of violence/terror but you are desperate to pretend people here do.

 

Stop making stuff up is my advice. No one thinks the things you spend every single day grandstanding about. No one.

Edited 30 March, 2016 by CB Fry

[Sour Mash]

I see.

 

So this march in London carried out by Muslim citizens calling for "peace and unity" differs from a backlash against terrorism in what way?

See, this is interesting. We're told that its only a very small minority of muslims that are terrorists or have support for terrorism, but more UK muslims have gone to fight for Isis than were on this march.

 

So, was this march a tiny minority of muslims, completely inconsequential? Or are the numbers that have gone to fight for Isis significant? You can't have it both ways.

 

Furthermore, the march wasn't carried out by Muslims calling for "peace and unity". It was a march that they hold every year and were holding any way, a few held up placards. That's not a backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." or "An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event" it doesn't fit either definition of the word "backlash"; there's not a large number of people, its not strongly negative and its not antagonistic. But apart from all that you're right.

[hypochondriac]

Put up the link to the antagonistic marches?

 

Antagonistic is something that is openly hostile or opposes something. Are you saying there have been no Muslims that have opposed or been openly hostile to terrorism?

[Sour Mash]

because clearly there is a backlash from the moderate Muslims.

 

Antagonistic is something that is openly hostile or opposes something. Are you saying there have been no Muslims that have opposed or been openly hostile to terrorism?

I'm sure someone, somewhere has. But the point being discussed is above. Clearly there hasn't been a backlash from the moderate muslims, despite everyone searching all over the internet they're struggling for examples.

[buctootim]

I'm sure someone, somewhere has. But the point being discussed is above. Clearly there hasn't been a backlash from the moderate muslims, despite everyone searching all over the internet they're struggling for examples.

 

You not able to work google? Took me 10 seconds to find these examples

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323372/Paris-terror-attacks-British-Muslim-groups-advert-unreservedly-condemning-violence.html

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris-attacks-muslims-around-world-react-islamic-state-massacre-1528759

Edited 30 March, 2016 by buctootim

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

See, this is interesting. We're told that its only a very small minority of muslims that are terrorists or have support for terrorism, but more UK muslims have gone to fight for Isis than were on this march.

 

So, was this march a tiny minority of muslims, completely inconsequential? Or are the numbers that have gone to fight for Isis significant? You can't have it both ways.

 

Furthermore, the march wasn't carried out by Muslims calling for "peace and unity". It was a march that they hold every year and were holding any way, a few held up placards. That's not a backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." or "An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event" it doesn't fit either definition of the word "backlash"; there's not a large number of people, its not strongly negative and its not antagonistic. But apart from all that you're right.

 

So you've - rapidly - moved on from claiming that stories of moderate Muslims marching in favour of peace was some kind of invention promoted by Soggy, to now opining that these protests are not big enough for your tastes. A more honest reply would be to just admit that you were mistaken - let's face it we all are from time to time.

 

Be that as it may, you will I suspect be surprised to read that for once I actually do agree with you to some extent because I too would like to see more Muslims taking a public stand against terrorism. However, that is just my personal opinion and the obvious counter-argument is that the millions of law abiding Muslims who are utterly unconnected to the extremists are under no obligation to do anything because these events have nothing to do with them.

 

I don't remember the Pope or the Irish Prime Minister publicly apologising every time their fellow Catholics in the Provisional IRA carried out some bloody attack - and neither should they because they were not responsible.

Edited 30 March, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Sour Mash]

You not able to work google? Took me 10 seconds to find these examples

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-muslims-marching-against-terrorism-6977099

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323372/Paris-terror-attacks-British-Muslim-groups-advert-unreservedly-condemning-violence.html

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris-attacks-muslims-around-world-react-islamic-state-massacre-1528759

And that's your "backlash"?

 

In response to widespread, sustained killing and terrorism, we've got some leaflets and placards, not even totalling the 800+ UK nationals that have gone to join Isis.

 

I'll have to repeat myself, but that's not a backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." or "An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event"

[Sour Mash]

So you've - rapidly - moved on from claiming that stories of moderate Muslims marching in favour of peace was some kind of invention promoted by Soggy, to now opining that these protests are not big enough for your tastes. A more honest reply would be to just admit that you were mistaken - let's face it we all are from time to time.

 

Be that as it may, you will I suspect be surprised to read that for once I actually do agree with you to some extent because I too would like to see more Muslims taking a public stand against terrorism. However, that is just my personsonal opinion and the obvious counter-argument is that the millions of law abiding Muslims who are unconnected to the extremists are under no obligation to do anything because these events have nothing to do with them.

 

I don't remember the Pope or the Irish Prime Minister publicly apologising every time their fellow Catholics in the Provisional IRA carried out some bloody attack - and neither should they becaue they were not responsible.

No, just proving him (and you) wrong.

[badgerx16]

Might it be that the vast majority of muslims in the UK are simply concerned with living their lives quietly and unobtrusively.

[Sour Mash]

Might it be that the vast majority of muslims in the UK are simply concerned with living their lives quietly and unobtrusively.

Possibly, but tell that to the poster that says there has been a clear backlash from them.

[TwoPints]

And that's your "backlash"?

 

In response to widespread, sustained killing and terrorism, we've got some leaflets and placards, not even totalling the 800+ UK nationals that have gone to join Isis.

 

I'll have to repeat myself, but that's not a backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." or "An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event"

There clearly has been a backlash and certainly more of a backlash from Muslims than non Muslims. It's just that you can't be bothered to look for evidence that doesn't support your view. Worldwide condemnation by Muslim leaders across the globe is quite a backlash and there are many more Muslims fighting ISIS than non Muslims. Not sure what more you'd expect.

[hypochondriac]

And that's your "backlash"?

 

In response to widespread, sustained killing and terrorism, we've got some leaflets and placards, not even totalling the 800+ UK nationals that have gone to join Isis.

 

I'll have to repeat myself, but that's not a backlash "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people, especially to a social or political development." or "An antagonistic reaction to a trend, development, or event"

 

Your second definition is exactly that. We weren't talking about the size of the backlash were we just that there has clearly been one.

[Sour Mash]

Your second definition is exactly that. We weren't talking about the size of the backlash were we just that there has clearly been one.

It's not "my" definition, that is the definition of the word "backlash". Feel free to stick up the links to "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people" or an "antagonistic reaction"?

[buctootim]

Your second definition is exactly that. We weren't talking about the size of the backlash were we just that there has clearly been one.

 

I don't know what he was expecting. Perhaps moderate muslims forming vigilante patrols and lynching anyone who looks shifty. Maybe some mosque against mosque wars?

[Sour Mash]

I don't know what he was expecting. Perhaps moderate muslims forming vigilante patrols and lynching anyone who looks shifty. Maybe some mosque against mosque wars?

I wasn't expecting that, wasn't me that made the unfounded claims of the clear backlash from the moderate muslims.

[buctootim]

I wasn't expecting that, wasn't me that made the unfounded claims of the clear backlash from the moderate muslims.

 

Okay - a backlash with no marching, no ads in paper, no speeches and no violence. Music? - Rock Against Beheadings? Dead Aid?

[Sour Mash]

Feel free to stick up the links to "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people" or an "antagonistic reaction"?

 

Okay - a backlash with no marching, no ads in paper, no speeches and no violence. Music? - Rock Against Beheadings? Dead Aid?

In your own time of course.

[hypochondriac]

It's not "my" definition, that is the definition of the word "backlash". Feel free to stick up the links to "a strong negative reaction by a large number of people" or an "antagonistic reaction"?

 

The definition as defined by the second one you posted is exactly what has been posted above. Antagonistic is something that is openly hostile or opposes something. There are Muslims there who are being openly hostile and opposing terrorists. It's an antagonistic reaction.

[Sour Mash]

The definition as defined by the second one you posted is exactly what has been posted above. Antagonistic is something that is openly hostile or opposes something. There are Muslims there who are being openly hostile and opposing terrorists. It's an antagonistic reaction.

Which link?

[hypochondriac]

Which link?

 

The links and pictures from buctootim show Muslims being openly hostile and opposing terrorists. It may not be how you wish they would deal with it but it's clear that that is what they are doing. I assume when PETA have a rally outside of an animal testing facility that you would define that as opposing what is happening? Same thing is happening here.

[Sour Mash]

The links and pictures from buctootim show Muslims being openly hostile and opposing terrorists. It may not be how you wish they would deal with it but it's clear that that is what they are doing. I assume when PETA have a rally outside of an animal testing facility that you would define that as opposing what is happening? Same thing is happening here.

So they're protesting outside an extremist mosque? Which Mosque? How many people are protesting there?

[buctootim]

A good article about Wahhabism and explanation of how it has spread here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/12206377/What-is-Wahhabism-The-reactionary-branch-of-Islam-said-to-be-the-main-source-of-global-terrorism.html

[hypochondriac]

So they're protesting outside an extremist mosque? Which Mosque? How many people are protesting there?

 

Why does it matter where they are protesting? The fact that they exist and are clearly protesting openly is enough to fulfill the stated definition.

[moonraker]

So they're protesting outside an extremist mosque? Which Mosque? How many people are protesting there?

 

You seem to be protesting about the failure of the Muslim community to respond to the terrorist problems in a manner that is open and supported by significant numbers. You also intimate that the lack of such a reaction is tantamount to condoning the Islamist extremists. Did you also take this view of the NI communities who failed to respond in the self same way as you demand? In such communities the fear of reprisals from the tiny minority of nutters is real, we saw real evidence of this in Glasgow last week, and the numerous kneecap pings and summary executions in Ni during the troubles was precisely designed to surprises any backlash. Your constant singling out of the Muslim community does your argument no favours and only serves to portray you as a bigoted ill informed, intolerant individual.