Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[buctootim]

i get the impression that many lefties view christianity as bad, whilst islam can do no wrong.

 

According to the Frankfurt-based International Society for Human Rights, 80% of all acts of religious discrimination were against Christians.

 

Christians are the most persecuted faith in the world.

 

anyway, carry on....

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/christianity-under-global-threat-persecution-says-report

 

What is it with pathetic cartoon strawmen on this thread? Something no-one said ever attacked using made up stats. What is it you want? some pogrom against Muslims? start off with a bit of window smashing and book burning to get rid of a few and get the whites in the mood - and then gradually ramp up the body count for ones who wont leave?

 

Its a pity you didnt read the whole story and the link which specifically stated that 80% figure was disputed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24864587 That link takes you here:

 

"On the internet, the statistic has taken on a life of its own, popping up all over the place, sometimes with an additional detail - that these 100,000 lives are taken by Muslims. The number comes originally from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in the US state of Massachusetts, which publishes such a figure each year in its Status of Global Mission. Its researchers started by estimating the number of Christians who died as martyrs between 2000 and 2010 - about one million by their reckoning - and divided that number by 10 to get an annual number, 100,000. But how do they reach that figure of one million? When you dig down, you see that the majority died in the civil war in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

 

More than four million are estimated to have been killed in that war between 2000 and 2010, and CSGC counts 900,000 of them - or 20% - as martyrs. Over 10 years, that averages out at 90,000 per year. So when you hear that 100,000 Christians are dying for their faith, you need to keep in mind that the vast majority - 90,000 - are people who were killed in DR Congo. This means we can say right away that the internet rumours of Muslims being behind the killing of 100,000 Christian martyrs are nonsense. The DRC is a Christian country. In the civil war, Christians were killing Christians.

 

In earlier estimates of martyrs, CSGC included killings that occurred in the Rwandan genocide. Again this is puzzling. It was not a conflict about religion - it was a case of Hutus killing Tutsis, and both sides were Christian. "The genocide in Rwanda was based on the systematic killing of an ethnic group in an attempt to completely wipe them out and it had nothing to do with the beliefs or the worship or the people who were killed," says Ian Linden, author of Church and Revolution in Rwanda, and associate professor in the study of religion at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London.

 

"The civil wars in the DRC were the consequences of a failed state, disintegrated military force so that militias had almost full power because of the weapons they had. They were indiscriminately killing and raping and plundering and it's very difficult to describe any of that killing as creating martyrdom.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by buctootim

[CB Fry]

.....only because some you seem to have a problem with the issue that terrorism isn't the sole preserve of Islam.

 

No one thinks this.

 

No one has said anything like this on this thread.

 

No one. At all.

 

You're a mentalist, a fantasist, or more likely, just full of it.

[buctootim]

dont have to trawl, it is headline news around the world

 

Then why do you feel the need to behave like a spam bot?

[hypochondriac]

SOG feels he was being challenged byTwo Pints so comes back to prove he clearly has the runniest brain.

Dangerous these people who see racists everywhere.

 

Indeed. As if we needed any further reminders! Must be awful seeing phantom racists everywhere.

[Johnny Bognor]

What is it with pathetic cartoon strawmen on this thread? Something no-one said ever attacked using made up stats. What is it you want? some pogrom against Muslims? start off with a bit of window smashing and book burning to get rid of a few and get the whites in the mood - and then gradually ramp up the body count for ones who wont leave?

 

I dont know about you but i would like a world where a muslim shopkeeper who is part of the local community can post a peaceful message on facebook without getting brutally murdered by a islamist fanatic.

 

There is clearly a problem with islamic fundementalism and one which needs to be dealt with. Many apologists dont seem to be able to get their heads around that. I beleive that these apologists pose a greater threat to our way of life than radical islamist nutjobs.

[hypochondriac]

I dont know about you but i would like a world where a muslim shopkeeper who is part of the local community can post a peaceful message on facebook without getting brutally murdered by a islamist fanatic.

 

There is clearly a problem with islamic fundementalism and one which needs to be dealt with. Many apologists dont seem to be able to get their heads around that. I beleive that these apologists pose a greater threat to our way of life than radical islamist nutjobs.

 

Hard to argue with you there. Even if someone doesn't agree, I hope we don't get other posters jumping up and down calling you racist or islamaphobic again.

[buctootim]

I dont know about you but i would like a world where a muslim shopkeeper who is part of the local community can post a peaceful message on facebook without getting brutally murdered by a islamist fanatic.

 

There is clearly a problem with islamic fundementalism and one which needs to be dealt with. Many apologists dont seem to be able to get their heads around that. I beleive that these apologists pose a greater threat to our way of life than radical islamist nutjobs.

 

Islamic extremism has been condemned repeatedly and consistently on this thread. What you term as 'apologism' is pointing out that its not 'The Muslims' doing the killing but a very specific sect which is of equal or more danger to Muslims than to Christians.

 

There are plenty of knuckle draggers in this country, including on this thread who aren't able to distinguish between paediatrics and paedophilia. You think they are going to distinguish between Ahmadiyya and Wahhabi Islam? Isnt it incumbent on you to make sure what you post is clear and accurate?

[buctootim]

Hard to argue with you there. Even if someone doesn't agree, I hope we don't get other posters jumping up and down calling you racist or islamaphobic again.

 

Its not necessary to be racist to start race riots. Just ignorant, lazy and complicit.

[Verbal]

I dont know about you but i would like a world where a muslim shopkeeper who is part of the local community can post a peaceful message on facebook without getting brutally murdered by a islamist fanatic.

 

There is clearly a problem with islamic fundementalism and one which needs to be dealt with. Many apologists dont seem to be able to get their heads around that. I beleive that these apologists pose a greater threat to our way of life than radical islamist nutjobs.

 

We don't know the motive for the attack, and the case is sub judice, so it might be an idea to await the outcome rather than break the law in a breathless rush to judgement.

 

What we do know is that the shopkeeper is an Ahmadi. I worked with an Ahmadi in Pakistan not so long ago, and she and her family hd to keep their religious affiliation a very closely guarded secret, otherwise their lives were seriously at risk. Ahmadis, who are liberal in the religious and social beliefs, are regarded as apostates by extremists - non-believers - and are routinely targeted once their identity is known. As I said earlier, it's actually not a bad idea to defend liberal Islam, which was one a majority in many Mnuslim countries but is now under threat.

[hypochondriac]

Its not necessary to be racist to start race riots. Just ignorant, lazy and complicit.

 

How do you jump from someone saying there is a problem with Islamic extremism to race riots? What sort of logic jump is that?

[buctootim]

How do you jump from someone saying there is a problem with Islamic extremism to race riots? What sort of logic jump is that?

 

He didnt say that. He said this:

 

"I get the impression that many lefties view christianity as bad, whilst islam can do no wrong.....80% of all acts of religious discrimination were against Christians. Christians are the most persecuted faith in the world".

 

There isnt a grain of truth in it.

[hypochondriac]

He didnt say that. He said this:

 

"I get the impression that many lefties view christianity as bad, whilst islam can do no wrong.....80% of all acts of religious discrimination were against Christians. Christians are the most persecuted faith in the world".

 

There isnt a grain of truth in it.

 

That isn't what you quoted. I said it was hard to argue with a different post.

[badgerx16]

We don't know the motive for the attack, and the case is sub judice, so it might be an idea to await the outcome rather than break the law in a breathless rush to judgement.

 

What we do know is that the shopkeeper is an Ahmadi. I worked with an Ahmadi in Pakistan not so long ago, and she and her family hd to keep their religious affiliation a very closely guarded secret, otherwise their lives were seriously at risk. Ahmadis, who are liberal in the religious and social beliefs, are regarded as apostates by extremists - non-believers - and are routinely targeted once their identity is known. As I said earlier, it's actually not a bad idea to defend liberal Islam, which was one a majority in many Mnuslim countries but is now under threat.

 

You can't introduce facts on here.

[Johnny Bognor]

Islamic extremism has been condemned repeatedly and consistently on this thread. What you term as 'apologism' is pointing out that its not 'The Muslims' doing the killing but a very specific sect which is of equal or more danger to Muslims than to Christians.

 

There are plenty of knuckle draggers in this country, including on this thread who aren't able to distinguish between paediatrics and paedophilia. You think they are going to distinguish between Ahmadiyya and Wahhabi Islam? Isnt it incumbent on you to make sure what you post is clear and accurate?

 

Yes. you are right. i was totally irresponsible in linking to an article in The Guardian. i dont know what came over me.

 

There does seem to be an ascertion, particularly from those with an apologist stance, that to be Christian means that you are white, possibly middle class of european origin. They would do well to remember that there are millions of black christians living in africa, millions of asian christians in Asia, millions of christians in the middle east. Many Christians in the middle east and africa are under real threat. Just look at what has happened to iraqi christians post the iraq war... christianity transcends race.

 

i am also aware of the threat to peaceful muslims, like the ill fated glasgow shopkeeper. These people need to be protected.

 

But too many lefties are quick to chuck the racist card around when the issue of islamic extremists is discussed. This deliberate attempt to silence critics is as much as a threat as those who strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Guan 2.0]

Indeed. As if we needed any further reminders! Must be awful seeing phantom racists everywhere.

 

From what I've seen on this thread, some are unaware of legitimate criticism of Politicised Islam, and the more unsavoury aspects of mainstream Islam itself, and instead insist on trying to present framing of such as unthinking criticism of those with different coloured skin. It's some pretty impressive mental gymnastics.

[buctootim]

There does seem to be an ascertion, particularly from those with an apologist stance, that to be Christian means that you are white, possibly middle class of european origin. They would do well to remember that there are millions of black christians living in africa, millions of asian christians in Asia, millions of christians in the middle east. Many Christians in the middle east and africa are under real threat. Just look at what has happened to iraqi christians post the iraq war... christianity transcends race.

 

Jeez. You are on a crusade against voices only you can hear.

 

Black and brown people can be Christian too - we know

Christians are sometimes targeted by Islamic extremists - we know

 

For the final time. The majority of victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims - Shia and moderate Sunnis account for far more victims than Christians do. Its a problem within Islam, not with Islam. No-one is excusing terrorism, apologising for it, denying it.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by buctootim

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yes. you are right. i was totally irresponsible in linking to an article in The Guardian. i dont know what came over me.

 

There does seem to be an ascertion, particularly from those with an apologist stance, that to be Christian means that you are white, possibly middle class of european origin.

 

I would be obliged if you could site some examples of those on here who are engaged in excusing and/or apologising for crime because I too would like to join in the condemnation of this appalling behaviour.

[sadoldgit]

Indeed. As if we needed any further reminders! Must be awful seeing phantom racists everywhere.

 

But not as good as pretending that they don't exist.

[sadoldgit]

SOG feels he was being challenged byTwo Pints so comes back to prove he clearly has the runniest brain.

Dangerous these people who see racists everywhere.

 

I think you have missed the person with the runniest brain Whelk. My dear old stalker once said (and I believe it was on this thread) that my view on Muslims was invalid because I didn't know any personally.

 

(By the way, I expect that I do but never bother to ask about someone's religious persuasion).

[sadoldgit]

This is for you Hypo (I know I said I would give you the last word but I have just realised that I had a couple of questions to ask).

 

1. You seem to have a problem with the statement that the Nazis were Christian. Is that right?

2. You came up with the phrase "desperately trying to be apologist." What or whom am I supposed to be apologising for?

 

Thanks.

[sadoldgit]

Yes. you are right. i was totally irresponsible in linking to an article in The Guardian. i dont know what came over me.

 

There does seem to be an ascertion, particularly from those with an apologist stance, that to be Christian means that you are white, possibly middle class of european origin. They would do well to remember that there are millions of black christians living in africa, millions of asian christians in Asia, millions of christians in the middle east. Many Christians in the middle east and africa are under real threat. Just look at what has happened to iraqi christians post the iraq war... christianity transcends race.

 

i am also aware of the threat to peaceful muslims, like the ill fated glasgow shopkeeper. These people need to be protected.

 

But too many lefties are quick to chuck the racist card around when the issue of islamic extremists is discussed. This deliberate attempt to silence critics is as much as a threat as those who strap bombs to themselves to murder innocent people.

 

I am not a Leftie Johnny Boy. Some might be, but I am not. I think it is a bit strong to suggest that there is a link between having a debate about what is going on (and no one is trying to deliberately silence anyone but you have to realised that posts that border on phobic are bound to get a reaction) and blowing other people up.

[hypochondriac]

But not as good as pretending that they don't exist.

 

You're just proving my point. Don't take my word for it though, look how many other posters have called you a fantasist!

[sadoldgit]

Hard to argue with you there. Even if someone doesn't agree, I hope we don't get other posters jumping up and down calling you racist or islamaphobic again.

 

Bloody hell, how did I miss this gem earlier? God forbid that anyone accuses anyone else of being racist or Islamaphobic! That wouldn't do at all would it Hypo? Much better to pick off the moderates.

[sadoldgit]

You're just proving my point. Don't take my word for it though, look how many other posters have called you a fantasist!

 

Hundreds of them. Just look at their names. The usual suspects. Interesting that none of these people tend to go after each other. Lets take Batman for example. A nice soft target but I have never seen you pick him up for anything. In fact I have seen you support him. I have picked Batman at random (sorry Batman) but there are others who you leave well alone too.

[hypochondriac]

This is for you Hypo (I know I said I would give you the last word but I have just realised that I had a couple of questions to ask).

 

1. You seem to have a problem with the statement that the Nazis were Christian. Is that right?

2. You came up with the phrase "desperately trying to be apologist." What or whom am I supposed to be apologising for?

 

Thanks.

 

So once again you demonstrate your lack of self control and you desperate desire to continue your verbal diarrhoea. Very well.

 

1. The nazis are as Christian as Katie Hopkins is when she says she is Jesus Christ.

 

2. You are desperate to avoid admitting that there is a problem with extremist Islam currently manifesting itself in the form of these terrorist attacks in europe. You are so desperate to avoid this that you go all round the houses bringing in nazis, talking about Christian terrorists and Christian atrocities which is totally irrelevant.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

So the Nazis weren't Christian then? I thought we had sorted this one out. Perhaps you were off that day?

 

What or whom have I been an apologist for please?

[hypochondriac]

Bloody hell, how did I miss this gem earlier? God forbid that anyone accuses anyone else of being racist or Islamaphobic! That wouldn't do at all would it Hypo? Much better to pick off the moderates.

 

It won't do when it's completely untrue and another example of you arguing against a perfectly reasonable view by shouting racist.

[hypochondriac]

Hundreds of them. Just look at their names. The usual suspects. Interesting that none of these people tend to go after each other. Lets take Batman for example. A nice soft target but I have never seen you pick him up for anything. In fact I have seen you support him. I have picked Batman at random (sorry Batman) but there are others who you leave well alone too.

 

It's not that interesting really, I don't see you arguing with the likes of two pints or Chapel end Charlie for example so it works both ways. There are plenty of holes in a number of their arguments but you never pick them up. Could it be because they are some of the few who don't think you're a loony? I've disagreed with delldays loads of times as I'm sure he will tell you.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by hypochondriac

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It's not that interesting really, I don't see you arguing with the likes of two pints or Chapel end Charlie for example so it works both ways. There are plenty of holes in a number of their arguments but you never pick them up. Could it be because they are some of the few who don't think you're a loony? I've disagreed with delldays loads of times as I'm sure he will tell you.

 

But my posts are all perfectly formed pearls of wisdom entirly lacking in "holes" - just ask CB Fry MK II if you doubt t it.

[sadoldgit]

It won't do when it's completely untrue and another example of you arguing against a perfectly reasonable view by shouting racist.

 

You are quite right, there is a bigger problem with the moderates.

 

So then, back to the Nazis and the issue about what or whom I am supposed to be an apologist for.

 

(ps Katie Hopkins went to a convent school...I know you think I am thick but even I know that she is probably not Jewish etc).

[sadoldgit]

So you don't wish to tell me what or whom I am an apologist for? Okay.

 

I'll help you out with the Nazi thing. Hitler (you know, the head honcho of the Nazis) said this in a speech in 1928. The Nazis "tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity, in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another." So then, from the man himself. I can also refer you to an interesting article by Robert Carr published in the History Review issue 47 dated December 2003 entitled Nazism and the Christian Heritage. There are plenty others online if you care to search for them.

[hypochondriac]

You are quite right, there is a bigger problem with the moderates.

 

So then, back to the Nazis and the issue about what or whom I am supposed to be an apologist for.

 

(ps Katie Hopkins went to a convent school...I know you think I am thick but even I know that she is probably not Jewish etc).

 

You are an apologist for extremist Islam when you deny or try to deflect attention from the not particularly controversial statement that there is a problem with extremism within Islam. Katie Hopkins attending a convent school does not in any way make her a Christian in the same way that me attending a Catholic Secondary School does not make me a Catholic.

[hypochondriac]

So you don't wish to tell me what or whom I am an apologist for? Okay.

 

I'll help you out with the Nazi thing. Hitler (you know, the head honcho of the Nazis) said this in a speech in 1928. The Nazis "tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity, in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another." So then, from the man himself. I can also refer you to an interesting article by Robert Carr published in the History Review issue 47 dated December 2003 entitled Nazism and the Christian Heritage. There are plenty others online if you care to search for them.

 

Irrefutable proof! I've heard some absolute tosh on here but congratulations you've taken it to a new level. Hitler was a Christian! :lol:

[ScepticalStan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LY6QifIHH8&feature=youtu.be

 

A Muslim guy ended up stomping all over the memorial in Brussels shouting 'Palestine Palestine!'

[sadoldgit]

Ah at last! Okay, go and find where I have ever made an excuse or provided an apology for the terrorists.

 

So we are agree about the Nazis being Christian now?

 

Perhaps you are right about Hopkins? I don't know whether being raised in a private convent or her wanting to take her child to a nativity play means that she is a Christian, but I would say there was more chance of that than her being Jewish or a Muslim wouldn't you say? Not really a big deal either way though is it? By the way, she has made more appalling comments since the Belgium atrocities but I know that you want be bothered by them as you prefer to have a go at the moderates. Funny that Batman hasn't posted them though

[Batman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LY6QifIHH8&feature=youtu.be

 

A Muslim guy ended up stomping all over the memorial in Brussels shouting 'Palestine Palestine!'

 

we have to tolerate this stuff. freedom of speech. That and Christians may have done something years ago

you wouldn't see water cannons being used on his ilk I suspect

 

lets be honest, in a way, Trump is right. Europe has become utterly feeble at dealing with this.

[hypochondriac]

we have to tolerate this stuff. freedom of speech. That and Christians may have done something years ago

 

lets be honest, in a way, Trump is right. Europe has become utterly feeble at dealing with this.

 

Well sort of. The European response to all this has been woeful so in that sense he is correct but almost everything else he says is mental with no detail. Trump is a cartoon character and will say whatever he thinks will be populist with his supporters. I wouldn't think too deeply about these sort of horrible acts though, after all Hitler was a Christian.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by hypochondriac

[buctootim]

we have to tolerate this stuff. freedom of speech. That and Christians may have done something years ago

you wouldn't see water cannons being used on his ilk I suspect

 

lets be honest, in a way, Trump is right. Europe has become utterly feeble at dealing with this.

 

I think we should build a wall and get the Muslims to pay for it. Where was it you lived again?

[Batman]

I think we should build a wall and get the Muslims to pay for it. Where was it you lived again?

 

what do you think of the youtube clip. reasonable use of freedom of speech. or just more hate-filled bile from a radical, islamic notjob sympathiser?

[buctootim]

Well sort of. The European response to all this has been woeful so in that sense he is correct but almost everything else he says is mental with no detail. Trump is a cartoon character and will say whatever he thinks will be populist with his supporters. I wouldn't think too deeply about these sort of horrible acts though, after all Hitler was a Christian.

 

Why are are we disbarring Hitler from being a Christian?

[buctootim]

what do you think of the youtube clip. reasonable use of freedom of speech. or just more hate-filled bile from a radical, islamic notjob sympathiser?

 

I didnt watch it. I just used the opportunity to make a cheap jibe at you.

[shirleysfc]

what do you think of the youtube clip. reasonable use of freedom of speech. or just more hate-filled bile from a radical, islamic notjob sympathiser?

 

Did you even watch the clip?

 

Looks like he was dealt with to me. Yes, he was clearly being a disrespectful arsehole but I didn't see any 'apologists' agreeing with him or anything.

[hypochondriac]

Why are are we disbarring Hitler from being a Christian?

 

Granted it's hypothetically possible that he recanted after taking the cyanide capsule- sadly for us we will never know- but short of that and unless soggy has access to data unreleased to the public, it's clear that he wasn't in any way shape or form a Christian.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Well there is a clear difference between arguing (correctly) that Nazi Germany employed religion at times to further its war effort, and then characterizing that perfectly valid point as "Hitler was a Christian" - which is absurd.

[hypochondriac]

Well there is a clear difference between arguing (correctly) that Nazi Germany employed religion at times to further its war effort, and then characterizing that perfectly valid point as "Hitler was a Christian" - which is absurd.

 

Indeed I agree. I assume soggys use of Hitler quotes regarding this particular argument was implying that Hitler was a Christian. We all agree that is utterly absurd. Good we can move on.

[buctootim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LY6QifIHH8&feature=youtu.be

 

A Muslim guy ended up stomping all over the memorial in Brussels shouting 'Palestine Palestine!'

 

afaik all he did was to lay a Palestinian flag down amongst the memorials and when people started to heckle him he started to shout Palestine. Inappropriate for sure but perhaps he thought there wasn't the same attention given to the fact Israel has killed 300 protestors in the past 6 months. I didnt see any stomping, just his flag being removed.

Edited 28 March, 2016 by buctootim

[shirleysfc]

what do you think of the youtube clip. reasonable use of freedom of speech. or just more hate-filled bile from a radical, islamic notjob sympathiser?

 

It's an OAP being disrespectful at a memorial.

 

What's your opinion of it?

[buctootim]

Granted it's hypothetically possible that he recanted after taking the cyanide capsule- sadly for us we will never know- but short of that and unless soggy has access to data unreleased to the public, it's clear that he wasn't in any way shape or form a Christian.

 

First up I want to make clear I dont think Hitler was in any way engaged in some holy war. We do have to be a bit careful about consistency though. Are we saying Hitler couldnt be a Christian because of the things he did? Im sure Muslims would claim the same about IS.

[hypochondriac]

afaik all he did was to lay a Palestinian flag down amongst the memorials and when people started to heckle him he started to shout Palestine. Inappropriate for sure but perhaps he thought there was large dose of hypocrisy going on given Israel has killed 300 protestors in the past 6 months.

 

That's hideously inappropriate and neither the time or the place for that sort of thing.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Indeed I agree. I assume soggys use of Hitler quotes regarding this particular argument was implying that Hitler was a Christian. We all agree that is utterly absurd. Good we can move on.

 

Well the historical record does show that Hitler was actually baptised into the Roman Catholic faith as a child. So, strange as it seems, perhaps he was a practicing Christian in his youth - there are gaps in the record that it make hard to say one way or the other.

 

I would speculate that his experiences in the trenches during the Great War may have turned him against religious faith - if so he would not be alone in that.