Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[Johnny Bognor]

Well I think your recent contributions to this thread do ammount to hard evidence of a innately racist attitude - I see that I'm not the only person on here to come to that conclusion. But if you still want to imply that British Muslims (4.5% of our population) make little or no positive contribution to society then you can address the evidence provided in this link:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/29/uk-muslims-economy_n_4170781.html

 

I awaite your reply with interest.

 

To be fair, that article doesn't make a good case for the financial contribution by the muslim community.

 

The contribution of £31bn to the economy represents 1.55% of our GDP, whilst they represent 4.5% of the total population.

 

If the proportion of population related to a similar share of GDP, then you would expect a contribution in the region of £90bn+ to the economy.

 

Obviously there is a lot more to contribution than just finances, such as social cohesion, cultural enrichment, filling skill shortages etc, etc. These are all harder to measure. But that article does not add gravitas to your argument. And before anyone cries racist, I would have been equally happy to show a higher than average contribution to GDP. Unfortunately, that's not the case based on that article. There may be many reasons for a lower than average financial contribution, such as the difficulty in finding work, language barriers etc.

Edited 24 March, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

As shown, there isn't an answer.

 

No one can demonstrate how our lives would be worse without mass Islamic immigration.

 

Just cry 'racist' towards anyone that doesn't want our towns and cities taken over. You're happy to see it, despite not living in any of the places actually impacted, which seems to be the case with most of those on the left.

 

It is not what others say, but rather your own posts that condemn you as a racist. Of course no one can prove what our society would be like today without immigratation because the point is entirely speculative/hypothetical one and therefore lacking in any evidential basis. You can suppose this and suppose that, but it can never be proved objectively.

 

As for your asinine claim that we "allowed" Muslim immigratation into Europe, anyone with even a smattering of real historical knowledge should know that Muslims have in fact been living here in Europe for centuries - mostly as a result of the colonial past of France and Great Britian rather than any connection to current EU policy. In fact immigration from the sub-continent, and other areas of the Commonwealth, was positivily encourged in post war Britain because we required a ready supply of cheap labour at the time. Think of all those stereotype Pakistani shopkeepers if you will ... who by the way most certainly did contribute to British society.

 

You might also consider the Balkens and how Muslims in Bosnia were treated by those describing themselves as "Christians" from Serbia and then come back on here and imply that the followers of Islam hold some monopoly on terror.

[eurosaint]

It's a ****ing ridiculous question and you will only ignore any responses anyway.

 

What proportion of muslims are terrorists?

 

What proportion of Germans were Nazis in 1939 ? The 'silent' majority did almost nothing and (circa) 6 million lives were lost !

IMHO non terrorist Muslims need to do more to solve the problems within their midst !

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

To be fair, that article doesn't make a good case for the financial contribution by the muslim community.

 

The contribution of £31bn to the economy represents 1.55% of our GDP, whilst they represent 4.5% of the total population.

 

If the proportion of population related to a similar share of GDP, then you would expect a contribution in the region of £90bn+ to the economy.

 

Obviously there is a lot more to contribution than just finances, such as social cohesion, cultural enrichment, filling skill shortages etc, etc. These are all harder to measure. But that article does not add gravitas to your argument. And before anyone cries racist, I would have been equally happy to show a higher than average contribution to GDP. Unfortunately, that's not the case based on that article. There may be many reasons for a lower than average financial contribution, such as the difficulty in finding work, language barriers etc.

 

Considering the fact that many of these these immigrants are still only first or second generation citizens here, then the scale of their contribution seems a highly respectable one a I think. I would also expect to see the contributon Muslims make to our economy to increase further over time.

[Sour Mash]

It is not what others say, but rather your own posts that condemn you as a racist. Of course no one can prove what our society would be like today without immigratation because the point is entirely speculative/hypothetical one and therefore lacking in any evidential basis. You can suppose this and suppose that, but it can never be proved objectively.

 

As for your asinine claim that we "allowed" Muslim immigratation into Europe, anyone with even a smattering of real historical knowledge should know that Muslims have in fact been living here in Europe for centuries - mostly as a result of the colonial past of France and Great Britian rather than any connection to current EU policy. In fact immigration from the sub-continent, and other areas of the Commonwealth, was positivily encourged in post war Britain because we required a ready supply of cheap labour at the time. Think of all those stereotype Pakistani shopkeepers if you will ... who by the way most certainly did contribute to British society.

 

You might also consider the Balkens and how Muslims in Bosnia were treated by those describing themselves as "Christians" from Serbia and then come back on here and imply that the followers of Islam hold some monopoly on terror.

So you're not able to show any racist posts, but keep making that up.

 

And no-one has said followers of Islam had a monopoly on terror, so keep making that up.

 

And no-one has said there weren't muslims living in Western Europe hundreds of years ago, but keep making that up.

 

I guess its the standard response by those that can't answer basic questions, just make some up.

[Dig Dig]

What proportion of Germans were Nazis in 1939 ? The 'silent' majority did almost nothing and (circa) 6 million lives were lost !

IMHO non terrorist Muslims need to do more to solve the problems within their midst !

 

The British intelligence services wouldn't operate effectively without the support from Muslim communities. What exactly do you expect the average Muslim to do?

[Fatboy40]

IMHO non terrorist Muslims need to do more to solve the problems within their midst !

 

QFT !

 

The 'western' world can only do so much, and to be blunt it's not us ****ting on our own doorstep here is it. Traditional Muslim countries do appear to be taking little real action to isolate and shame those choosing to subvert Islam.

[buctootim]

To be fair, that article doesn't make a good case for the financial contribution by the muslim community.

 

The contribution of £31bn to the economy represents 1.55% of our GDP, whilst they represent 4.5% of the total population.

 

If the proportion of population related to a similar share of GDP, then you would expect a contribution in the region of £90bn+ to the economy.

 

Obviously there is a lot more to contribution than just finances, such as social cohesion, cultural enrichment, filling skill shortages etc, etc. These are all harder to measure. But that article does not add gravitas to your argument. And before anyone cries racist, I would have been equally happy to show a higher than average contribution to GDP. Unfortunately, that's not the case based on that article. There may be many reasons for a lower than average financial contribution, such as the difficulty in finding work, language barriers etc.

 

That reflects past immigration policy of bringing in unskilled labour from small areas of Bangladesh and Pakistan to do predominantly low paid manual jobs in the UK. That policy never made sense - cheap labour was not the right way for British companies to compete when they should have been investing in raising productivity. Past failings in immigration policy is though in no way a basis for demonising those who moved here legally and mostly have worked hard for less than average wages.

Edited 24 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Johnny Bognor]

I see no mention of the poor people massacred on the beach in Ivory Coast...

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/18/world/ivory-coast-attack-survivors/

 

I guess the Ivory Coast airstrikes on the middle east were the primary cause...

[Johnny Bognor]

That reflects past immigration policy of bringing in unskilled labour to do predominantly low paid manual jobs in the UK. That policy never made sense - cheap labour was not the right way for British companies to compete when they should have been investing in raising productivity. Past failings in immigration policy is though in no way a basis for demonising those who moved here legally and mostly have worked hard for less than average wages.

 

I wasn't demonising them and in fact tried to explain away the lower than average contribution. You make a valid point that partly explains it. I was merely pointing out that the article does the argument no favours.

[buctootim]

I wasn't demonising them and in fact tried to explain away the lower than average contribution. You make a valid point that partly explains it. I was merely pointing out that the article does the argument no favours.

 

Sure, I wasnt pointing the finger at you, but at one or two others on this thread.

[moonraker]

I did. aHow would our lives be worse off without mass Islamic immigrtion?

 

You are so contradictory, you are correct Islam is not a race yet you use it to characterise immigration, the normal convention is by race not religion. What is difficult to deduce from your tediously repetitive question is whether you believe that ‘limited Islamic immigration is acceptable’. I will answer your question on a personal level, my life is much fuller and richer because I live in a tolerant and divers society. Oh and don’t forget, Indian Restaurants and Takeaways have added immensely to our lives and therefore I assert we would be worse of without them, you can add kebab shops, corner shops and Harrods, taxi drivers.

[moonraker]

What proportion of Germans were Nazis in 1939 ? The 'silent' majority did almost nothing and (circa) 6 million lives were lost !

IMHO non terrorist Muslims need to do more to solve the problems within their midst !

 

Within the political context of the time most people supported the NSDAP because their lives were blighted by Versailles and they wanted something to believe in. However a not insignificant number of Germans actively opposed the regime throughout its tenure, in fact over 77,000 German citizens were executed following a trial due to their resistance. Additionally it has been estimated that tens of thousands of suspected opponents of the regime (not Jews) were sent to Concentration Camps without trial and subsequently died. It should not be forgotten that throughout the rise to power of the NSDAP Western Governments continually appeased them. Whilst there are many factors that created the conditions to allow such an extreme and inhumane administration to lead a major European Country, lack of effective international law, treaties, unions and agreements was a major factor, far more significant than the acquiescence of the beleaguered German people.

[sadoldgit]

Was this Sour Mash or Batman?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35888748

[sadoldgit]

What proportion of Germans were Nazis in 1939 ? The 'silent' majority did almost nothing and (circa) 6 million lives were lost !

IMHO non terrorist Muslims need to do more to solve the problems within their midst !

 

What do you expect them to do? Go on a James Bond course and become part time spies for us? I suspect that the average Muslim has no more idea what is going on with the terrorists than you or I.

[moonraker]

Was this Sour Mash or Batman?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35888748

 

It cant possibly Sour Mash as Islam is not a race.

[sadoldgit]

In what way would we be worse off without mass Muslim immigration?

 

The lack of any answer speaks volumes.

 

Lets look at this in a different way. Would we be worse off or better off without bigoted racists?

[sadoldgit]

And many on here see the takeover of Western European towns and cities by this culture as a good thing. You couldn't make it up.

 

Okay Nigel Farage, time to come clean. I really didn't have you pegged as a Saints fan though.

[sadoldgit]

I think he means (i may be mistaken) modern, mass immigration. Look at now, millions of Muslims being allowed into a no-border Europe.

at the same time, mass murder on our doorstep is starting to become the norm.

 

you couldn't make it up

 

I seem to remember a while ago you getting quite shirty when I alluded that you might be racist. I have read your recent posts and can quite happily now say that I think you are a racist.

[Sour Mash]

You are so contradictory, you are correct Islam is not a race yet you use it to characterise immigration, the normal convention is by race not religion. What is difficult to deduce from your tediously repetitive question is whether you believe that ‘limited Islamic immigration is acceptable’. I will answer your question on a personal level, my life is much fuller and richer because I live in a tolerant and divers society. Oh and don’t forget, Indian Restaurants and Takeaways have added immensely to our lives and therefore I assert we would be worse of without them, you can add kebab shops, corner shops and Harrods, taxi drivers.

Fair shout, you get your cheap taxis and takeaways, don't worry too much about the terrorism and rape gangs.

[Sour Mash]

I seem to remember a while ago you getting quite shirty when I alluded that you might be racist. I have read your recent posts and can quite happily now say that I think you are a racist.

Which race is he being racist against?

[buctootim]

[Sour Mash]

Okay Nigel Farage, time to come clean. I really didn't have you pegged as a Saints fan though.

Did the scenes from Brussels this week remind you of a night out in Maidstone?

[sadoldgit]

Fair shout, you get your cheap taxis and takeaways, don't worry too much about the terrorism and rape gangs.

 

You really do need to understand the difference between terrorists and normal moderate Muslims. If all Muslims were the same we would have been fighting on the streets a long time ago.

[buctootim]

Which race is he being racist against?

 

How about 'misanthrope'? does that sit better with you? Or sectarian, that fits too. Segrationist possibly? Or just plain vanilla bigot. You choose. They all work.

[Sour Mash]

How about 'misanthrope'? does that sit better with you? Or sectarian, that fits too. Segrationist possibly? Or just plain vanilla bigot. You choose. They all work.

Pick any name you want for people that don't want their towns and cities overtaken by Islam, doesn't really bother me.

[moonraker]

Fair shout, you get your cheap taxis and takeaways, don't worry too much about the terrorism and rape gangs.

Well if the only rapists and terrorist were Muslims you might be on to something. More Europeans have been killed by non Muslim Terrorists. As to the rape charge a certain non-Muslim Australian immigrant, a well loved (by some) celebrity, children’s homes staff and countless other non Muslim perpetrators would suggest that religion is not a key factor, the one thing the vast majority have in common is they are all men. I might deduce that you are a closet extreme feminist plotting the downfall of the male gender. But then I wake up and realise that you just an intolerant racist, incapable of processing information and evidence to arrive at a rational understanding of anything remotely complex. One day it will be very lonely in your cave.

[moonraker]

Pick any name you want for people that don't want their towns and cities overtaken by Islam, doesn't really bother me.

 

Another great irony, you rebut being called racist and then deduce that anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous position is happy to have their communities over run by Islam. You really are thick or the biggest WUM ever.

[Batman]

I seem to remember a while ago you getting quite shirty when I alluded that you might be racist. I have read your recent posts and can quite happily now say that I think you are a racist.

 

the race card being thrown about. good effort

[buctootim]

Another great irony, you rebut being called racist and then deduce that anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous position is happy to have their communities over run by Islam. You really are thick or the biggest WUM ever.

 

Its just some weak shape shifting he's trying - 'Im against this religion because its intolerant and violent, its not because they're brown, no sir, so you cant call me a racist. The fact I do hate brown people, black people and European immigrants is beside the point'.

[Sour Mash]

Another great irony, you rebut being called racist and then deduce that anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous position is happy to have their communities over run by Islam. You really are thick or the biggest WUM ever.

So you're against mass Islamic immigration. Glad we've finally established that.

[Sour Mash]

the race card being thrown about. good effort

Its the way that all those on the left try to shut down any debate on Europe's problem with Islam.

[Batman]

Its the way that all those on the left try to shut down any debate on Europe's problem with Islam.

 

I coulud not care less what colour, race or religion someone is. As long as they live by the west's standards and values and we should not tolerate society where those values revert back to the year 1850.

not live in segregated ghetto's (no matter what race, colours or religion) and put up with hate preachers on our streets.

 

is that too much to ask/hope for?

[Sour Mash]

is that too much to ask/hope for?

Agreed, but unfortunately seems so.

[Griffo]

Importing thousands from a religion whose teachings are directly incompatible with the way people in the Western world live? Clever.

 

How many more attacks is it going to take for people to wake up? Most of the people on here are presumably from nice leafy suburbs and don't have to ever come in to contact with the problem. They'd only wake up if it happened to their own family.

[eurosaint]

What do you expect them to do? Go on a James Bond course and become part time spies for us? I suspect that the average Muslim has no more idea what is going on with the terrorists than you or I.

 

Report suspicious activity, educate and encourage their children to be aware that radicalism is evil !

I'd be incredibly surprised if most residents of Moelenbeek and Schaerbeek were completely unaware of what was going on around them !

[ScepticalStan]

There are oriental Uighur Muslims in China

There are Arab Muslims

There are Muslims from the Indian subcontinent

There are white caucasian Muslims in Bosnia

 

Islam isn't a race. Criticising it is not racist. This isn't up for debate I'm afraid.

[moonraker]

So you're against mass Islamic immigration. Glad we've finally established that.

 

Wow, I do not recognise the term in any practical sense. You have invented, opp’s borrowed, an emotive meaningless term which has sadly become some sort of reality in your pea sized brain. I do not know how you define mass, normally when one refers to the mass of a given population they are refereeing to the majority. So lets test your assertion of Mass Immigration. Firstly the current number of UK citizens who adhere to the Islamic Religion is 4.7% of they population, so not the mass, secondly 47% of those were born here so not immigrants, of the other 53% approximately 30% are recent immigrant (post 1990 for the purposes of this analysis), or 18% of the total in real numbers that’s a little under 500,000 or an average of 25000 a year, hey they would all fit into St Marys with room to spare for the bigots to act as the away fans. So when compared to the total population of the UK the totality of Islamic Immigration does not support your claim.

Now it gets interesting as you set the benchmark of Islamic Immigration we have to use the Global Islamic Population to get an understanding of how many individuals, could by the normal interpretation of population mass, be considered the Immigrant Islamic Mass to the UK there are circa 2.2 million Muslims in the world. Using the figures above it works out that 0.0067% of all Muslims have emigrated to the UK in the past 60 years or so and UK Muslims make up 0.12% of the Global Muslim adherents, so while you like the emotion your meaningless term might generate it is neither factually or literally within a thousand light years of the truth.

Edited 24 March, 2016 by moonraker

[buctootim]

Report suspicious activity, educate and encourage their children to be aware that radicalism is evil !

I'd be incredibly surprised if most residents of Moelenbeek and Schaerbeek were completely unaware of what was going on around them !

 

Its complex and not easy to spot, mainly because there isnt much logic to their thoughtlines. One of the Paris bombers used to spout jihadist Is stuff to his friends whilst smoking dope and drinking in the bar he ran, so they didnt take him seriously. Most / many of the European born jihadis have been in prison. To become an IS killer seems to take mostly disaffection with life, a criminal tendency and only thirdly a perverted version of Islam. There's a good piece here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35890960.

Edited 24 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Chalkboy]

Just read this and it pretty much summed up how I feel about the way the media and government respond to these attacks. The terrorist organisations must love it;

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/24/scariest-brussels-reactoin-paranoid-politicians-isis-atrocity-belgium

 

As a side note, will we be having the Belgian national anthem played at every match for the next 10 days?

[Sour Mash]

Wow, I do not recognise the term in any practical sense. You have invented, opp’s borrowed, an emotive meaningless term which has sadly become some sort of reality in your pea sized brain. I do not know how you define mass, normally when one refers to the mass of a given population they are refereeing to the majority. So lets test your assertion of Mass Immigration. Firstly the current number of UK citizens who adhere to the Islamic Religion is 4.7% of they population, so not the mass, secondly 47% of those were born here so not immigrants, of the other 53% approximately 30% are recent immigrant (post 1990 for the purposes of this analysis), or 18% of the total in real numbers that’s a little under 500,000 or an average of 25000 a year, hey they would all fit into St Marys with room to spare for the bigots to act as the away fans. So when compared to the total population of the UK the totality of Islamic Immigration does not support your claim.

Now it gets interesting as you set the benchmark of Islamic Immigration we have to use the Global Islamic Population to get an understanding of how many individuals, could by the normal interpretation of population mass, be considered the Immigrant Islamic Mass to the UK there are circa 2.2 million Muslims in the world. Using the figures above it works out that 0.0067% of all Muslims have emigrated to the UK in the past 60 years or so and UK Muslims make up 0.12% of the Global Muslim adherents, so while you like the emotion your meaningless term might generate it is neither factually or literally within a thousand light years of the truth.

You can't even look up the definition of "mass".

[moonraker]

There are oriental Uighur Muslims in China

There are Arab Muslims

There are Muslims from the Indian subcontinent

There are white caucasian Muslims in Bosnia

 

Islam isn't a race. Criticising it is not racist. This isn't up for debate I'm afraid.

 

Oh dear another made up statement presented as fact. Under the United Nations Charter Racism or "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

And whilst the term Religion is not used case law has established that discrimination on religious grounds falls under this charter.

[sadoldgit]

There are oriental Uighur Muslims in China

There are Arab Muslims

There are Muslims from the Indian subcontinent

There are white caucasian Muslims in Bosnia

 

Islam isn't a race. Criticising it is not racist. This isn't up for debate I'm afraid.

 

I agree with you. It isn't racist but I guess that term is being used as it sounds better than religionist. Whatever, they are still both "hate crimes."

[buctootim]

Just read this and it pretty much summed up how I feel about the way the media and government respond to these attacks. The terrorist organisations must love it;

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/24/scariest-brussels-reactoin-paranoid-politicians-isis-atrocity-belgium

 

As a side note, will we be having the Belgian national anthem played at every match for the next 10 days?

 

 

Exactly. As a country we seem to have lost perspective. Drama queens in love with terror viewed safely from our sofas and then letting world know how we feel. In 1975 aged 12 I was in a snooker hall in Belfast city centre with my uncle. Three bombs went off outside in a period of an hour. As a Brit visitor I was scared and suggested we should go back to Aunties. His reply was exactly the kind of phlegmatic calm we've lost - "aach they're only blast bombs. Anyway if we leave now we'll never get a taxi and Im not walking two miles".

Edited 24 March, 2016 by buctootim

[moonraker]

You can't even look up the definition of "mass".

There are a number of definitions for mass I explained how it used when refereeing to populations. Please can you tell me your definition in the context of your claim?

[sadoldgit]

Report suspicious activity, educate and encourage their children to be aware that radicalism is evil !

I'd be incredibly surprised if most residents of Moelenbeek and Schaerbeek were completely unaware of what was going on around them !

 

Apparently they do. One of the gang from the Paris attacks was given up by who I believe was a Muslim. You can only give information if you have any to give. Given that friends and relatives often have no idea that they know terrorists I am not sure how ordinary Muslims are supposed to know about what is going on.

[sadoldgit]

the race card being thrown about. good effort

 

You clearly have a problem with foreigners.

[eurosaint]

Apparently they do. One of the gang from the Paris attacks was given up by who I believe was a Muslim. You can only give information if you have any to give. Given that friends and relatives often have no idea that they know terrorists I am not sure how ordinary Muslims are supposed to know about what is going on.

 

I'm not suggesting that it never happens but feel that as a community more needs to be done !

It might have been nice to see a march of Muslim mothers in Brussels, holding candles and demanding a stop to the atrocities.

There have been over 200 Belgian returnees from Syria, do their families just say " welcome back son, how are Raqqah and Alleppo at this time of year, oh my, you've lost a bit of weight" ?

I refuse to believe that many of these dark activities go unnoticed, especially in the known enclaves !

Ps. I know I'm being a bit flippant but I think it helps to make my point !

[Chalkboy]

Spineless drama Queens in love with terror porn.

 

Quote of the day!

 

The news channels love it. The more tragedy, death, flowers, tears, bowed-heads, moments of silence, candles,

looped-clips of explosions, gunfire and terrified people the better.

[moonraker]

I'm not suggesting that it never happens but feel that as a community more needs to be done !

It might have been nice to see a march of Muslim mothers in Brussels, holding candles and demanding a stop to the atrocities.

There have been over 200 Belgian returnees from Syria, do their families just say " welcome back son, how are Raqqah and Alleppo at this time of year, oh my, you've lost a bit of weight" ?

I refuse to believe that many of these dark activities go unnoticed, especially in the known enclaves !

Ps. I know I'm being a bit flippant but I think it helps to make my point !

I could not agree more, the Muslim community needs to do more.