Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[sadoldgit]

Well just for a start as verbal said the fact that a hostage tried negotiating with them and they brutally murdered and tortured him along with a number of other examples. Why are you being so idiotic by suggesting anyone suggesting killing them all? When you say all who are you referring to?

 

One incidence. So it fails once in one situation and we just give up? "Idiotic" you do like name calling don't you? Do you think that helps? We had an exchange a while back where your solution rather than negotiation was to kill them as I recall.

[View From The Top]

Before the hard of thinking start their anti-Muslim bull it's worth noting that ISIS kill more Muslims than anybody else.

 

As for negotiation. Impossible. This is a fight until the bitter end and we in the West better be prepared to get our hands very bloody to win it.

[sadoldgit]

What did the IRA want? A united Ireland. What have they got? Power sharing, devolved government and the veteran terrorists have replaced the guns for cozy power and validation. Even at the height of the troubles, who the UK was dealing with was clear and what they wanted was clear. Three words, a united Ireland. We negotiated against that and the negotiations lead to a functioning peace.

 

I'll ask again, third or fourth time now, what do IS want, who do they represent and what are you negotiating away to them.

 

Whenever you're ready. You can stop dishing out obvious platitudes of how war is, like terrible. No one is saying otherwise so stop trying to do your usual act of clambering onto a higher horse than everyone else.

 

Who are we negotiating with and what are we negotiating? Anytime you're ready.

 

Carry on being patronising CBF, you are a master of the art.

[hypochondriac]

Carry on being patronising CBF, you are a master of the art.

 

I note you have no answers. It's why you get the responses you do because you come out with obvious stuff like peaceful solutions are preferable (clearly) but then come up with no ideas about how that would be achieved. You suggest negotiation but give no more details than that. Is it any wonder people dismiss you arguments?

[hypochondriac]

Why not? We live in a very diverse world where all kinds find ways of living with each other. It might not be easy, but it is not impossible.

 

Because they don't want to coexist with us, they want to murder us. It's not difficult to understand.

[johnnyboy]

Some people on here need to stop point scoring against each other and debate like adults , innocent people died last night and some of you feel it's better to patronise , bully and belittle each other than deal with the events that happened . None of this helps

[CB Fry]

Carry on being patronising CBF, you are a master of the art.

Whenever you're ready.

 

Who are we negotiating with, what are we negotiating about and what are we negotiating away.

 

Come on, SOG, we're all "round the table" as per your mould breaking idea. What's actually on the table?

[hypochondriac]

Soggy have you ever seen that Halloween Simpsons episode where they wish for world peace and then some aggressive aliens come down and enslave mankind who are powerless to fight back? Your solutions remind me of that for some reason.

[skintsaint]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34823466

 

Only way to negotiate with terrorists.

[dan17]

And therein lies the answer, the majority of people just do not understand the problem. The EI think that they're fighting crusaders and that as such we're all non-believers who deserve to die anyway. The atrocities that they have committed amongst people of their own religion just show what we're up against. These aren't the W.I Tea Committee they are very bad people who think that they have a cause to fight and die for, they're not interested in anything else.

 

Sadly I feel this is pretty much on the money. Isn't one of their quotes 'we love death more than you love life'? How can you negotiate with that?

[hypochondriac]

Some people on here need to stop point scoring against each other and debate like adults , innocent people died last night and some of you feel it's better to patronise , bully and belittle each other than deal with the events that happened . None of this helps

 

Hold on we are discussing how best to deal with these people. Soggy says negotiation but won't give any other details despite being invited to do so a number of times. Tell me how else we are supposed to debate like adults as you put it?

[JackFrost]

Still very much to do with a certain type of Islam though. So is clearly an Islamic problem.

 

The problem is vulnerable kids growing up knowing nothing but war and violence, and being brainwashed into death cults by psychopaths. Selective religion is merely a tool used to indoctrinate. The same has happened with Christianity in parts of the world.

 

If we start wars an bomb people in the Middle East it is naive not to expect this sort of thing in return. Especially considering the refugee situation.

 

The war against IS needs to be stepped up, a serious effort needs to be made, not just air strikes and a few agents on the ground.

 

Indeed, but it needs to be through eliminating them from social media and removing them from the media as a whole, plus cutting off their income sources.

 

Calling and acknowledging them as 'Islamic State' is the first mistake. The whole reason why they are called 'Islamic State' is because that is precisely what they aren't. It's how they reel people in, and then the brainwashing goes from there. They are fuelled by publicity.

 

The main problem with an full-out invasion of IS territory in Syria/Iraq for instance is that a lot of IS aren't even there.

 

There can be no negotiation with these people.

 

It's that simple. They are not the IRA, they don't have a sane political agenda. You can't negotiate with people who want world wide mutual annihilation, a judgement day where every man on Earth is brought before Allah, Jihadist are glorified in paradise and receive 72 virgins, whilst all no-believers are cast into the fires of hell for eternity.

 

Exactly.

 

When your dealing with people who brutally beat women for not wearing two veils, and then spend the rest of the afternoon attending the weekly sex-slave auction your not dealing with people that can be negotiated with.

 

The problem is they are largely an invisible enemy. Their visual presence in Iraq/Syria is merely the tip of the iceberg,

[whelk]

Okay Whelk, before I go find a piano. Perhaps you would like to explain why we have this problem now, because we certainly did not have it when I was growing up. Perhaps they do despise moderate Muslim but perhaps they are more likely to talk to people closer to their own persuasions than someone from the West. I am not saying that is the solution, I am trying to say keep looking to find a way forward that doesn't just involved killing. And before you say that is all they understand, that has been said of many other protagonists in the past yet bloodshed has been ended eventually.

 

I don't have solution I'm afraid but coming up with ' war is stupid' or hashtags 'pray4paris' 'we are all french' etc whilst clearly a noble sentiment does not resolve much..

Obviously this will only won by hearts and minds and if there was a way to strike the perpetuators think the nuclear option would even be approved by the majority.

Problem is we have too many freedoms to protect whereas a despot needing to deal with such atrocities would round up the bomber's family, friends and just execute them. Unfair but effective. Whereas we put the tricolour on the Wembley arch and everyone retweets and politicians condemn in the strongest terms.

Take the snooping legislation - not many might feel it would have been a diabolical liberty for French GCHQ to have intelligence that the Bataclan was a target and that someone was rounded up interrogated and didn't have all his freedom protected.

[View From The Top]

The problem is they are largely an invisible enemy. Their visual presence in Iraq/Syria is merely the tip of the iceberg,

 

You kill, in large numbers, every single one you can find. You prosecute the war without mercy and unflinchingly. ISIS isn't a hydra. If the world sees it's head cut off then the wannabes won't be so keen.

 

The rules are changing and we have to change with them.

[Window Cleaner]

I don't have solution I'm afraid but coming up with ' war is stupid' or hashtags 'pray4paris' 'we are all french' etc whilst clearly a noble sentiment does not resolve much..

Obviously this will only won by hearts and minds and if there was a way to strike the perpetuators think the nuclear option would even be approved by the majority.

Problem is we have too many freedoms to protect whereas a despot needing to deal with such atrocities would round up the bomber's family, friends and just execute them. Unfair but effective. Whereas we put the tricolour on the Wembley arch and everyone retweets and politicians condemn in the strongest terms.

Take the snooping legislation - not many might feel it would have been a diabolical liberty for French GCHQ to have intelligence that the Bataclan was a target and that someone was rounded up interrogated and didn't have all his freedom protected.

 

Therein lies another problem, the DGSI might have all the information but as long as Ma Taubira releases suspects and criminals it won't do any much good. She is a radical lefty from the Antilles and just has no idea.

[whelk]

Some people on here need to stop point scoring against each other and debate like adults , innocent people died last night and some of you feel it's better to patronise , bully and belittle each other than deal with the events that happened . None of this helps

 

I don't think actually anyone is point scoring. This is a place for debate Johnny. SOG seems a decent sort but very weak at putting anything across that has substance so leaves himself open to ridicule.

 

Wha happened last night has been on my mind all day so I don't think it is a case of nit being dignified or respectful - I get sad but also very angry.

[Dig Dig]

Why not? We live in a very diverse world where all kinds find ways of living with each other. It might not be easy, but it is not impossible.

 

[sadoldgit]

I would love to find a solution to this conflict and somehow CBF thinks I can assume the mantle of a Henry Kissinger and come up with the goods on an Internet football forum. Wouldn't that be something? Islamic extremists will never bring the West to its knees. They will never turn every Infidel to Islam. If they don't know it now at some point the penny will drop. Unless we are happy to carry on butchering each other, at some point both sides are going to have to find a way to live together. What is the alternative? Seek to kill every last one of them whilst living with more and more nights like last night? Perhaps if they were all nicely grouped in one place then it might be doable, but it seems that many of them live amongst us so how do we find them all?

[sadoldgit]

You kill, in large numbers, every single one you can find. You prosecute the war without mercy and unflinchingly. ISIS isn't a hydra. If the world sees it's head cut off then the wannabes won't be so keen.

 

The rules are changing and we have to change with them.

 

Isnt this the problem though, that is exactly what happens. You drone Jihadi John and another takes his place. he kill Bin Laden and another takes his place.

[sadoldgit]

 

As long as Man has walked the earth there have been conflicts and guess what, eventually they get resolved.

[sadoldgit]

Whenever you're ready.

 

Who are we negotiating with, what are we negotiating about and what are we negotiating away.

 

Come on, SOG, we're all "round the table" as per your mould breaking idea. What's actually on the table?

 

My mould breaking idea? You cant help yourself can you?

[hypochondriac]

I would love to find a solution to this conflict and somehow CBF thinks I can assume the mantle of a Henry Kissinger and come up with the goods on an Internet football forum. Wouldn't that be something? Islamic extremists will never bring the West to its knees. They will never turn every Infidel to Islam. If they don't know it now at some point the penny will drop. Unless we are happy to carry on butchering each other, at some point both sides are going to have to find a way to live together. What is the alternative? Seek to kill every last one of them whilst living with more and more nights like last night? Perhaps if they were all nicely grouped in one place then it might be doable, but it seems that many of them live amongst us so how do we find them all?

 

So are you suggesting that laying down our arms and allowing Islamic state to expand will decrease the chances of last night happening? Are you suggesting that we ignore them until some indeterminate point in the future when they decide that they cannot bring down the west and want to start negotiations? Just as the last time we discussed this, you are happy to call for negotiations but when asked to elaborate you are unable to.

[whelk]

As long as Man has walked the earth there have been conflicts and guess what, eventually they get resolved.

 

Yeah not always peacefully - you would have loved Chamberlain's approach I am sure.

[Lighthouse]

As long as Man has walked the earth there have been conflicts and guess what, eventually they get resolved.

 

For about the 50th time; what is it that Isis want which you think we should offer them, in return for peace?

[hypochondriac]

Isnt this the problem though, that is exactly what happens. You drone Jihadi John and another takes his place. he kill Bin Laden and another takes his place.

 

But who is to say that you decide not to kill them and then even more come along to join them. At least in the first scenario we have less extremists.

[sadoldgit]

I don't think actually anyone is point scoring. This is a place for debate Johnny. SOG seems a decent sort but very weak at putting anything across that has substance so leaves himself open to ridicule.

 

Wha happened last night has been on my mind all day so I don't think it is a case of nit being dignified or respectful - I get sad but also very angry.

 

I'll say this again though Whelk, why expect a bloke on a football forum to be able to solve this problem? Frankly I am sick to the back teeth of people on both sides of the divide getting killed and if people want to ridicule me for saying so they can knock themselves out.

[hypochondriac]

I'll say this again though Whelk, why expect a bloke on a football forum to be able to solve this problem? Frankly I am sick to the back teeth of people on both sides of the divide getting killed and if people want to ridicule me for saying so they can knock themselves out.

 

They aren't ridiculing you for stating that (which is very obvious.) you leave yourself open to ridiculing by suggesting things but having no strategy or detail to back it up with.

[sadoldgit]

For about the 50th time; what is it that Isis want which you think we should offer them, in return for peace?

 

For about the 50th time, why do you expect me to have the answer? If it were that simple don't you think that someone else would have thought of it? Where did I say that finding a way of dealing with them beyond the gun would be easy or straightforward? That doesn't mean to say a) we shouldn't keep trying and b) that it is impossible. It certainly isn't going to happen any time soon but things do change. We haven't been in conflict with extreme Islamists since the year dot so there was a time where we were able to co-habit. If it happened before it can happen again. Surely?

[View From The Top]

Isnt this the problem though, that is exactly what happens. You drone Jihadi John and another takes his place. he kill Bin Laden and another takes his place.

 

This requires a boots on the ground war. The Kurds have shown what can be done. We went to Iraq based on lies and idiots praying together. This is a whole new ball game and in this case justified.

 

They have their hardcore who we should help on their way to paradise but the wannabies won't be so keen.

[whelk]

Before the hard of thinking start their anti-Muslim bull it's worth noting that ISIS kill more Muslims than anybody else.

 

As for negotiation. Impossible. This is a fight until the bitter end and we in the West better be prepared to get our hands very bloody to win it.

 

Agreed but equally nauseating when people saying nothing to do with Islam. Clearly it is.

[OldNick]

For about the 50th time, why do you expect me to have the answer? If it were that simple don't you think that someone else would have thought of it? Where did I say that finding a way of dealing with them beyond the gun would be easy or straightforward? That doesn't mean to say a) we shouldn't keep trying and b) that it is impossible. It certainly isn't going to happen any time soon but things do change. We haven't been in conflict with extreme Islamists since the year dot so there was a time where we were able to co-habit. If it happened before it can happen again. Surely?

We are infidels, whatever you do or say to them you are seen as unworthy and so death is the only way they will deal with you.

Simplistic perhaps but you cannot deal with that mindset.

All creeds and religions have their idiots who will kill for the only reason, that you are different to them.

it is so depressing.

 

Perhaps the only counter is to tell them that when they get all the Virgins they are promised is to inform them that each one comes with a mother in law, that'll sort it

[JackFrost]

You kill, in large numbers, every single one you can find. You prosecute the war without mercy and unflinchingly. ISIS isn't a hydra. If the world sees it's head cut off then the wannabes won't be so keen.

 

The rules are changing and we have to change with them.

 

A large purpose behind their 'territory' in Iraq/Syria is to fool the west into thinking that's where they are. The problem is they are in France, they are in Belgium, they are in Australia, they are in Libya, they are in Tunisia.

 

There's a reason why the Russians want to prop up Assad (arms deals aside) If Assad regains control of Syria and brings some sort of stability it'll slowly deprive IS of radicalised minds, cut off their main financial streams ie. head and international splinter cells will be deprived of resources. Groups like IS thrive in power vacuums.

[Window Cleaner]

As long as Man has walked the earth there have been conflicts and guess what, eventually they get resolved.

 

And what did it take to stop the Japanese last time round ? Some heavy "negociation" there wasn't it ?

[Saint Billy]

You cannot negotiate with these people, I doubt if IS know themselves what they really want deep down. Jahadi John was a UK citizen benefitting from living in the UK so what was his beef?.

 

I blame the likes of George Bush and Tony Blair for giving these people an excuse to go and kill innocent people.

[hypochondriac]

And what did it take to stop the Japanese last time round ? Some heavy "negociation" there wasn't it ?

 

Or indeed the Italians and nazis. It was after the fighting that they were willing to discuss things. We tried the negotiation route with Hitler and all it did was give him more time to get stronger before he attacked. In many ways this situation is actually worse because IS do not have a specific aim beyond killing everyone.

[stknowle]

Fek this is all so depressing. Look at how it's all escalated since 9/11. We must be running at 3 or 4 major atrocities a year minimum and they are getting bigger and closer. That's in 14 years. The prognosis for 2029 ain't looking great is it.

[whelk]

You cannot negotiate with these people, I doubt if IS know themselves what they really want deep down. Jahadi John was a UK citizen benefitting from living in the UK so what was his beef?.

 

I blame the likes of George Bush and Tony Blair for giving these people an excuse to go and kill innocent people.

 

There lies the fcking problem. I blame Blair - FFS. Yeah all his fault otherwise these guys would be helping out at youth clubs.

[Window Cleaner]

Fek this is all so depressing. Look at how it's all escalated since 9/11. We must be running at 3 or 4 major atrocities a year minimum and they are getting bigger and closer. That's in 14 years. The prognosis for 2029 ain't looking great is it.

 

It's what trying to impose democracy on states that have no structure or taste for it leaves behind..well that and half done jobs that is. I mean if there'd been universal sufferage in Tudor Britain what do you think the result would have been.

[View From The Top]

A large purpose behind their 'territory' in Iraq/Syria is to fool the west into thinking that's where they are. The problem is they are in France, they are in Belgium, they are in Australia, they are in Libya, they are in Tunisia.

 

There's a reason why the Russians want to prop up Assad (arms deals aside) If Assad regains control of Syria and brings some sort of stability it'll slowly deprive IS of radicalised minds, cut off their main financial streams ie. head and international splinter cells will be deprived of resources. Groups like IS thrive in power vacuums.

 

I'd like to see the West use the Kurds as the anvil and our own troops as the hammer. The world would see the cowards flee and die at the hands of fellow Muslims.

 

For those already in the West then, as liberal as I am, I have no issue with the "Gibraltar" option being employed.

[View From The Top]

There lies the fcking problem. I blame Blair - FFS. Yeah all his fault otherwise these guys would be helping out at youth clubs.

 

Blair and Bush started this with their insane adventure into Iraq, we are still paying the price.

[Window Cleaner]

I'd like to see the West use the Kurds as the anvil and our own troops as the hammer. The world would see the cowards flee and die at the hands of fellow Muslims.

 

For those already in the West then, as liberal as I am, I have no issue with the "Gibraltar" option being employed.

 

 

Mmm but then the Turks become a problem don't they. Turkey is a strategic ally and they'll not have any Kurdish state at their door. I mean they're really helping the situation with their air strikes on Kurdish fighters aren't they.

[whelk]

Blair and Bush started this with their insane adventure into Iraq, we are still paying the price.

 

Convenient scapegoats. What done is done. As someone else said 9/11 - naive to think this is all caused simplistically. It has caused the vacuum but is not the root cause

[sadoldgit]

I grew up through a large chunk of the Cold War. The Berlin Wall went up when I was 7 years old. Although I don't recall much about it at the time, as I grew up I thought it would be impossible that the wall would ever come down. Relations with the Russians changed and the wall came down. Ok, things with the Russians (well Putin) aren't so great anymore but things do change and there is no reason to believe that the people who are driving the Islamic extremists at the moment will not eventually soften, or if not them, those who follow them.

For those who find the bickering disrespectful to those who were killed or wounded last night you are right and I will do my best to stop now!

[whelk]

I'd like to see the West use the Kurds as the anvil and our own troops as the hammer. The world would see the cowards flee and die at the hands of fellow Muslims.

 

For those already in the West then, as liberal as I am, I have no issue with the "Gibraltar" option being employed.

 

And total respect to the Kurds. Also Shoot to kill is needed.

Fear it is like US high school shootings though. All emotive afterwards the dust settles and nothing changes

[View From The Top]

Convenient scapegoats. What done is done. As someone else said 9/11 - naive to think this is all caused simplistically. It has caused the vacuum but is not the root cause

 

Convenient scapegoats? Fook me.

[whelk]

Convenient scapegoats? Fook me.

 

Yeah you know best I'm sure. Voicing it at the time no doubt.

[sadoldgit]

And what did it take to stop the Japanese last time round ? Some heavy "negociation" there wasn't it ?

 

They were on the back foot at the time but the two H Bombs did speed up the peace process. Trouble now is that our atomic capability counts for nothing.

[whelk]

Convenient scapegoats? Fook me.

 

Tell me what your view was on dealing with evil despot Assad was? Vacuum or empower?

[Window Cleaner]

They were on the back foot at the time but the two H Bombs did speed up the peace process. Trouble now is that our atomic capability counts for nothing.

 

Because we won't use it..every Tom **** and Ahmed knows that.

[Verbal]

Agreed but equally nauseating when people saying nothing to do with Islam. Clearly it is.

 

It is, but mostly - almost entirely - because it is a war WITHIN Islam. Which is why the majority of the victims of the war, by far, are other Muslims. And it's not just Sunni vs Shia, nor even Wahhabi vs Sunni moderates - but historically violent Salafists vs the whole of the rest of the religion. The goal, as I've said, is the claiming of Mecca for Salafists and their bands of mainstream-Islam-hating, women-loathing, West-deriding lunatics.

 

Which is why the idea of negotiating with the Salafists - IS, Al Shabaab, Boko Haram, etc - is desperately, hopelessly missing the point. How do you negotiate with someone who doesn't want anything from you?

 

Sad though this may be for our sense of self-importance, the West is a sideshow, an irrelevance, nothing more than a locale for 'spectaculars' in recruitment drives and popularity contests among those susceptible to the message of death cultism. Western victims of Salafist violence are victims because the West is, in the eyes of the Salafists, pathetic and weak. They are victims because the West is easy prey.

 

Offering to 'negotiate', as SOG proposes, would be interpreted as yet another sign of inbred Western weakness. Offering to negotiate will get your head lopped off - so if those are one of the terms anyone wants to go to the negotiating table with, fine. Be it on your own detachable head.