Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[CB Fry]

What things am I at pains to dismiss that are worrying to many about Islam? Yes, I find it hard to understand why anyone would get upset by what someone else chooses to waer, but what else? I think I have made it clear that I do not support the terrorists and their actions.

 

Intolerance is everywhere. This forum is a case in point.

 

You seem to think I am of a left wing tendency. You could not be more wrong. As for being anti Christian or anti semitic and supportive of Islam, you have missed the point. It is not about being more supportive of one religion over another. I couldn't give a stuff what anyone's religion is. The people that bother me are the nutters that for whatever reason think it is okay to attack other with knives, guns and bombs. To write off the second largest religion on the planet because a small minority of them are murdering bastards only serves to perpetuate the problem. We all need to accept the diversity and differences in our societies and become more accepting of things we do not understand. That is not being supportive of Islam, it is being supportive of all of Mankind that wants a peaceful co-existence. You keep wanting to find a them and us. The us is the majority of people who want to live peacefully and guess what, that includes millions of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists, Atheists, Agonostics etc etc

 

So it's terrorists and then every other Muslim in the world is, you know, just like you, like, really, right?

 

Hilarious you single out this forum as "intolerant". You might remember your own astonishing grandstanding against perceived forum intolerance against homosexuality.

 

I think if you found out that 7% or lower on this forum agreed with the statement that homosexuality should be accepted, I think you'd be on your forum high horse about it, right? Not very "we need to accept the diversity and differences in our societies" is it?

 

So remind me which diversity you are "accepting" today - the 'all religions are as jolly nice as the other' one, or the 'don't stone gays to death' one?

 

So lots if people, millions in fact, think that think homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. You think it is just something we need to "understand" so it's not "them and us". I think otherwise.

 

But that's just me and my intolerance.

Edited 8 December, 2015 by CB Fry

[hypochondriac]

Remember that all these statements are made when soggy doesn't even know any Muslims and despite some Muslim leaders themselves admitting it is a problem within their religion.

[Coxford_lou]

My issue isn't with nutty loons that are murderous scum , because that's a given. My issue is with so called " moderates " within this particular religion . Segregated audience , for one thing . Women walking around with burkas on , and I know they can wear what they want , but deep down do they really want to , or do they even know any better . If you conducted a major survey of British God botheres & British Muslims in which their views on homosexuals , women ,Jews & non believers were sought , do you think the results would be similar or do you think a far larger amount of Muslims would be less tolerant ?

 

If Nigel Farage made Mrs Farage cover her body from head to toe, and only spoke to segregated audiences , Lefties would be spitting feathers , if he converted to Islam you wouldn't hear a peep out of them . Rather than try and ban Tyson Fury from spoty for his pathetic views , he'd be a hero to them if he was a Muslim spouting the same nonsense

 

Since when have you become an advocate for women's issues, Duckhunter? All I read on here is your usual patronising baloney. Which makes you as hypocritical as they are.

[hypochondriac]

Since when have you become an advocate for women's issues, Duckhunter? All I read on here is your usual patronising baloney. Which makes you as hypocritical as they are.

 

Or maybe it isn't as black and white as that and whilst people aren't as militant about it all as some on here, they still tend to go about their lives being respectful of others including women and object to things like the burka because of that. A few jokes on here doesn't mean that people aren't entitled to hold views about respect or that they can't believe that women (or gay people for that matter) deserve better than some within Islam afford them.

[Coxford_lou]

Or maybe it isn't as black and white as that and whilst people aren't as militant about it all as some on here, they still tend to go about their lives being respectful of others including women and object to things like the burka because of that. A few jokes on here doesn't mean that people aren't entitled to hold views about respect or that they can't believe that women (or gay people for that matter) deserve better than some within Islam afford them.

 

Lol. You preach to me about black and white, then call me militant (again) in the same sentence. Maybe things aren't as black and white as you see them.

 

I've never had the sense Duckworth's comments about women on here are intended as 'jokes', but I'm more than happy for him to correct me if that's been his intention all along. Whether or not they're very funny is a whole different matter... But I'll take peoples views about respect a little more seriously when they start living those values themselves.

[hypochondriac]

Lol. You preach to me about black and white, then call me militant (again) in the same sentence. Maybe things aren't as black and white as you see them.

 

I've never had the sense Duckworth's comments about women on here are intended as 'jokes', but I'm more than happy for him to correct me if that's been his intention all along. Whether or not they're very funny is a whole different matter... But I'll take peoples views about respect a little more seriously when they start living those values themselves.

 

I didn't mention you so why have you decided I was calling you militant? In fact you didn't post on here for months until I pointed it out so actually I wasn't even thinking of you when I said that. Difficult for anyone to talk about how someone else lives based on conversations on here I would have thought. I've always considered this place to be a bit like a pub and just like the pub I've heard some stuff considered offensive or close to the knuckle by some. I'm not going to pretend I know what dune was like offline for example because he came across as a racist looney on here. He also sent me free tickets to a game so he wasn't all bad.

 

Getting back on topic, I don't see much of a contradiction between making a few comments that some would view as sexist and then having an opposition to a culture that forces women to hide their face of in the case of places like Saudi Arabia pretty much stripping them of all their rights.

 

I mean, according to you Ralph made some sexist comments. Are you saying that then means he isn't allow to oppose other areas of life where women are subjugated?

Edited 8 December, 2015 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

So you are not tolerant of Lefties then? And that is the thing isn't it? Allowing people to have their own beliefs no matter what you think? I cant answer you question about what "moderates" think of homosexuals in this country but I do know that, in the main, they don't throw them off buildings. I can answer your question about burkas because I saw an interesting programme on this a while back where several women were interviewed and they all said that the wore what they want when they wanted and sometimes chose to wear the burka. Does it really matter though? If they sign up to a religion and is says wear a bed sheet then that comes with the territory. Why is it your problem? Orthodox Jews wear a certain style of clothes. Why should it bother you what they wear? My partner has been asked to cover her shoulders in certain Christian churches abroad. You do it out of respect or you don't bother to go in. It isn't really a big deal. That isn't me being "moderate" it is me being "tolerant." Obviously there are limits and if "moderates" starting lobbing Gay people from roofs they would find themselves banged up. You don't have to be a "Leftie" to believe that those with a different way of living are perfectly at rights to live the way they wish (so long as it is within the law) without getting grief for being "different." I am sure I don't have to remind you that you don't have to be a "God Botherer" or a Muslim to be intolerant of people who are Gay. By the way, I don't think it is true about Farage. It doesn't matter what religion he signed up to, the "Lefties" as you call them would still have an issue with his politics.

[Batman]

So you are not tolerant of Lefties then? And that is the thing isn't it? Allowing people to have their own beliefs no matter what you think? I cant answer you question about what "moderates" think of homosexuals in this country but I do know that, in the main, they don't throw them off buildings. I can answer your question about burkas because I saw an interesting programme on this a while back where several women were interviewed and they all said that the wore what they want when they wanted and sometimes chose to wear the burka. Does it really matter though? If they sign up to a religion and is says wear a bed sheet then that comes with the territory. Why is it your problem? Orthodox Jews wear a certain style of clothes. Why should it bother you what they wear? My partner has been asked to cover her shoulders in certain Christian churches abroad. You do it out of respect or you don't bother to go in. It isn't really a big deal. That isn't me being "moderate" it is me being "tolerant." Obviously there are limits and if "moderates" starting lobbing Gay people from roofs they would find themselves banged up. You don't have to be a "Leftie" to believe that those with a different way of living are perfectly at rights to live the way they wish (so long as it is within the law) without getting grief for being "different." I am sure I don't have to remind you that you don't have to be a "God Botherer" or a Muslim to be intolerant of people who are Gay. By the way, I don't think it is true about Farage. It doesn't matter what religion he signed up to, the "Lefties" as you call them would still have an issue with his politics.

 

should learn to ignore it...maybe even tolerate him. Hell, even allow him to address a segragated audience....shall we say, Brits one side of the room, eastern europeans the other? seems the only fair, nice, tolerant way of doing things.

[sadoldgit]

So it's terrorists and then every other Muslim in the world is, you know, just like you, like, really, right?

 

Hilarious you single out this forum as "intolerant". You might remember your own astonishing grandstanding against perceived forum intolerance against homosexuality.

 

I think if you found out that 7% or lower on this forum agreed with the statement that homosexuality should be accepted, I think you'd be on your forum high horse about it, right? Not very "we need to accept the diversity and differences in our societies" is it?

 

So remind me which diversity you are "accepting" today - the 'all religions are as jolly nice as the other' one, or the 'don't stone gays to death' one?

 

So lots if people, millions in fact, think that think homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. You think it is just something we need to "understand" so it's not "them and us". I think otherwise.

 

But that's just me and my intolerance.

 

I am surprised that you are using that survey again Fry after Shurlock has already embarrassed you about your previous inconsistency Thanks also for putting words into my mouth. Not once I have said that it is ok to punish homosexuality by death and not once I have defended any kind of extremism, but you know that and yet you still make the point. I will put you back on ignore now where you belong.

[hypochondriac]

Ah right so the studies that show that many women are pressured into wearing the burka and suffer oppression are irrelevant because soggy saw a programme and the women said they were them because they felt like it. That's OK then.

[hypochondriac]

Not sure if anyone has heard of PREVENT duty that was brought into schools and early years settings. It sets out the responsibility that teachers and practitioners have to combat radicalisation. This means that they have a duty to report anything which is at odds with fundamental British values. According to soggy this sort of thing doesn't exist and it's only illegal things that should be stopped. Clearly the government believes that anything at odds with fundamental British values should be prevented.

[Coxford_lou]

I didn't mention you so why have you decided I was calling you militant? In fact you didn't post on here for months until I pointed it out so actually I wasn't even thinking of you when I said that. Difficult for anyone to talk about how someone else lives based on conversations on here I would have thought. I've always considered this place to be a bit like a pub and just like the pub I've heard some stuff considered offensive or close to the knuckle by some. I'm not going to pretend I know what dune was like offline for example because he came across as a racist looney on here. He also sent me free tickets to a game so he wasn't all bad.

 

Getting back on topic, I don't see much of a contradiction between making a few comments that some would view as sexist and then having an opposition to a culture that forces women to hide their face of in the case of places like Saudi Arabia pretty much stripping them of all their rights.

 

I mean, according to you Ralph made some sexist comments. Are you saying that then means he isn't allow to oppose other areas of life where women are subjugated?

 

Oh good Lord, have a day off, Hypo. Your words might mean something if it wasn't for the constant shifting sands and game playing.

[sadoldgit]

Oh good Lord, have a day off, Hypo. Your words might mean something if it wasn't for the constant shifting sands and game playing.

 

Since I put him on ignore my life has improved no end Lou. Don't get into it, life is too short!

[hypochondriac]

Oh good Lord, have a day off, Hypo. Your words might mean something if it wasn't for the constant shifting sands and game playing.

 

If you aren't prepared to talk about it then why bother replying in the first place?

[shurlock]

Not sure if anyone has heard of PREVENT duty that was brought into schools and early years settings. It sets out the responsibility that teachers and practitioners have to combat radicalisation. This means that they have a duty to report anything which is at odds with fundamental British values. According to soggy this sort of thing doesn't exist and it's only illegal things that should be stopped. Clearly the government believes that anything at odds with fundamental British values should be prevented.

 

Have you reported anyone yet?

Edited 8 December, 2015 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

Since I put him on ignore my life has improved no end Lou. Don't get into it, life is too short!

 

Thank goodness you put me on ignore soggy. What a shame that's the third time you've brought it up (discounting the one time you forgot and replied to me and those times you've spoken about me on pap's website.)

[sadoldgit]

I didn't say that Hypo and yet I am the one making things up?

[Lord Duckhunter]

But I'll take peoples views about respect a little more seriously when they start living those values themselves.

 

I do live these values every day , I wouldn't go anywhere that segregated women from men. In fact your ridiculous assertion that I'm some sort of sexist is based on the fact I think women are shyte at football . Try & get the sisterhood to get a game in some Muslim countries & you would probably get stoned .It's utterly bizzare how lefties , pinkos and bra burners like you jump up and down when a white male says anything sexist , yet want us to be tolerant of people who display real misogyny . can you imagine if Alabama or Mississippi treated women like Saudi Arabia does. The Greenham common brigade would have a permanet tented village outside America's London embassy.

[sadoldgit]

Lefties, pinkos and bra burners? The 1970s called, they want their Duckhunter back!

[badgerx16]

There may be some inviting emigration options coming up if Le Pen or Trump get elected.

[Orange]

I do live these values every day , I wouldn't go anywhere that segregated women from men. In fact your ridiculous assertion that I'm some sort of sexist is based on the fact I think women are shyte at football . Try & get the sisterhood to get a game in some Muslim countries & you would probably get stoned .It's utterly bizzare how lefties , pinkos and bra burners like you jump up and down when a white male says anything sexist , yet want us to be tolerant of people who display real misogyny . can you imagine if Alabama or Mississippi treated women like Saudi Arabia does. The Greenham common brigade would have a permanet tented village outside America's London embassy.

 

Because it doesn't fit their pro multicultural prejudiced agenda does it. Middle class feminists like Caroline Lucas and her band of student followers for example, spending all their time whinging about page 3 because the Sun is both owned and red by nasty white men. But you won't hear a peep from them when it comes to segregated or all male Labour meetings, grooming gangs running amok for years etc. I live in Oxford at the moment, and trust me the issue of girls being harassed by a certain section of the community has not ended.

[sadoldgit]

I do live these values every day , I wouldn't go anywhere that segregated women from men. In fact your ridiculous assertion that I'm some sort of sexist is based on the fact I think women are shyte at football . Try & get the sisterhood to get a game in some Muslim countries & you would probably get stoned .It's utterly bizzare how lefties , pinkos and bra burners like you jump up and down when a white male says anything sexist , yet want us to be tolerant of people who display real misogyny . can you imagine if Alabama or Mississippi treated women like Saudi Arabia does. The Greenham common brigade would have a permanet tented village outside America's London embassy.

 

Would have ruled out Australia Duckhunter? Up to a few years back women were not allowed to drink in the same bars as men.

[hypochondriac]

I didn't say that Hypo and yet I am the one making things up?

 

Hold on, I thought you have me on ignore? You keep contradicting yourself!

[Lord Duckhunter]

Because it doesn't fit their pro multicultural prejudiced agenda does it. Middle class feminists like Caroline Lucas and her band of student followers for example, spending all their time whinging about page 3 because the Sun is both owned and red by nasty white men. But you won't hear a peep from them when it comes to segregated or all male Labour meetings, grooming gangs running amok for years etc. I live in Oxford at the moment, and trust me the issue of girls being harassed by a certain section of the community has not ended.

 

Exactly , loons like Lucas & Harriett Harperson complain about birds being in charge of their own bodies and whipping their puppies out on page 3 more than they complain about some of the disgusting treatment of women by some Muslim communities .

 

The leftie establishment tip toe around issues which they'd come down like a tonne of bricks if it was white middle class golf club members displaying the same disgusting behaviours.

[sadoldgit]

Exactly , loons like Lucas & Harriett Harperson complain about birds being in charge of their own bodies and whipping their puppies out on page 3 more than they complain about some of the disgusting treatment of women by some Muslim communities .

 

The leftie establishment tip toe around issues which they'd come down like a tonne of bricks if it was white middle class golf club members displaying the same disgusting behaviours.

 

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

[hypochondriac]

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

 

So you are saying that if someone like tyson fury decided to agree with some commonly held Islamic views (without naming them as such) there would not be a different reaction? Be serious.

[CB Fry]

I am surprised that you are using that survey again Fry after Shurlock has already embarrassed you about your previous inconsistency Thanks also for putting words into my mouth. Not once I have said that it is ok to punish homosexuality by death and not once I have defended any kind of extremism, but you know that and yet you still make the point. I will put you back on ignore now where you belong.

 

What survey "again"? The survey I quoted is from a report called "the global divide on homosexuality" by the PEW research centre and is a report based on a survey taken in multiple countries asking Muslims about their views about homosexuality. I've never used it or referenced it ever before on any thread on any topic. So, as usual, more lies from SOG.

 

And as we are talking about embarrassment, I am still waiting for an explanation for your statement that people are "not that bothered" about the Ku Klux Klan. Any chance you are ever going to attempt to explain that pearler?

 

And, lets be clear, the attitude towards homosexuality in, say, Pakistan, is not "extremism", it's normal. If you are saying you abhor that, then great, but it kinda goes against your previous statement that "We all need to accept the diversity and differences in our societies and become more accepting of things we do not understand."

 

SOG - always prepared to get apesh it outraged at percieved homophobia on Saints Web. Blanket homophobia, in somewhere like Pakistan, not so much.

[CB Fry]

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

You are walking evidence of it.

[Orange]

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

 

Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford etc?

[CB Fry]

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

. We get ourselves worked up over people wearing a black sheet with eye holes but aren't overly bothered by people wearing white sheets with eyes holes who have been quite happy to burn and hang people of a different race and who are still active today.

 

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

[Guan 2.0]

Is this actually true??? Evidence???

 

I can't tell if SOG is a deluded but principled individual, ignoring reason in favour of an idealogical standpoint, or a network of trolls operating a parody account.

[Verbal]

SOG - always prepared to get apesh it outraged at percieved homophobia on Saints Web. Blanket homophobia, in somewhere like Pakistan, not so much.

 

I hate to introduce shades of grey into a black-and-white argument, but here goes.

 

Any question asked publicly by PEW or anyone else in Pakistan will elicit a public answer. Privately, things are very different.

 

Homosexuality is not punishable by death in Pakistan – but it is if you are ‘convicted’ of it in ‘shura’ courts in some more extreme areas. Yet amongst the Taliban homosexuality is rife.

 

You wouldn’t think there’d be much in the way of an LGBT movement in Pakistan. In fact, it’s been there in one form since the Mughals. Hijras – transgender men-to-women – are despised publicly, but because they are also thought to be bringers of good luck are regularly invited to Pakistani weddings. Hijras have this status partly because they were essential items at the Mughal court, and have remained deeply ingrained in the culture. In the hijra tradition, the most famous TV chat show host a few years ago was an ostentatiously gay man dressed as a woman.

 

Islam in its modern virulent Wahhabi form is sexually repressive, including in its alien presence in Pakistan. Yet the country’s most famous living painter is the son of a prostitute, who paints prostitutes for a living, who exhibits these paintings in a building that overlooks and faces onto one of the world’s most important Islamic sites, the Badshahi mosque in Lahore. You can view his paintings and then go upstairs and sit and have food on his veranda with the most spectacular view of the mosque.

 

His house is in the city’s red light district, which is now in the process of being preserved. I think it’s even been designated a world heritage site. In that red light district is a rather grand and very beautiful house which is a kind of Playboy mansion. During the festival of Basant (kite-flying, ostensibly), the house parties were something to behold, with its ‘harem rooms’ – it felt like the last days of the Roman Empire. Let’s leave it at that.

 

I remember asking a Karachi-ite what people did of an evening and he said: we’re in the midst of a population explosion – what do you think?

 

Intoxication of any kind of prohibited, but in the tribal areas alcohol runs like water. In fact, that’s what it’s called – Khyber water. It’s purest, neatest hooch and will knock you out. Drug-taking is also publicly taboo. Yet in Karachi there is an entire street (by the main bus station if you’re curious) in which every single of about thirty shops sells various kinds of hasheesh. People I knew there had a taste for it so refined that they were like the most committed wine connoisseurs. When I once asked for fake bundles of hash as a film prop they brought in the real stuff.

 

Outwardly, all Pakistanis dress more or less alike in shalwas, etc. But go into the walled-off fashion college in Lahore and you’ll see the most daring stuff being designed and cat-walked.

 

If you go to see Pakistan’s most famous Sufi musicians, including those who perform around mosques, you’ll be joining in a drugged-up, hippy-ish audience – and the drugs are very much part of the experience. Always have been. This is because Sufism has always been the most popular form of Islam in the population centre of Pakistan (basically the Indus Valley), and spiritualism is accessed by way of some variant of cannabis. It’s also why Kabul was the terminus of the hippy trail up until the 1970s – you wouldn’t know or even guess today that Afghanistan was also the centre of a Sufi tune in/drop out religion that dominated a people’s lives. Go to a place like Sehwan Sharif in Sindh province, and you’ll be in a headlong party every single night. Sehwan Sharif is so holy that Hindus travel to it from India, with all the risks that entails. Or go to the wondrous Sufi shrines in outwardly super-conservative Multan – and you’ll notice that the shrines themselves dominate the skyline, and have tiny mosques attached – a very physical representation of priorities.

 

This isn’t the half of it – there’s lots I can’t say because it might put people at risk. But it does illustrate the difficulty of cut-and-dried categorisation. So Pakistanis in Pakistan aren’t so much different to us – they just party harder.

 

And answer PEW questions with pre-approved censoriousness. Things are not always as they seem.

[CB Fry]

I hate to introduce shades of grey into a black-and-white argument, but here goes.

 

Any question asked publicly by PEW or anyone else in Pakistan will elicit a public answer. Privately, things are very different.

 

Homosexuality is not punishable by death in Pakistan – but it is if you are ‘convicted’ of it in ‘shura’ courts in some more extreme areas. Yet amongst the Taliban homosexuality is rife.

 

You wouldn’t think there’d be much in the way of an LGBT movement in Pakistan. In fact, it’s been there in one form since the Mughals. Hijras – transgender men-to-women – are despised publicly, but because they are also thought to be bringers of good luck are regularly invited to Pakistani weddings. Hijras have this status partly because they were essential items at the Mughal court, and have remained deeply ingrained in the culture. In the hijra tradition, the most famous TV chat show host a few years ago was an ostentatiously gay man dressed as a woman.

 

Islam in its modern virulent Wahhabi form is sexually repressive, including in its alien presence in Pakistan. Yet the country’s most famous living painter is the son of a prostitute, who paints prostitutes for a living, who exhibits these paintings in a building that overlooks and faces onto one of the world’s most important Islamic sites, the Badshahi mosque in Lahore. You can view his paintings and then go upstairs and sit and have food on his veranda with the most spectacular view of the mosque.

 

His house is in the city’s red light district, which is now in the process of being preserved. I think it’s even been designated a world heritage site. In that red light district is a rather grand and very beautiful house which is a kind of Playboy mansion. During the festival of Basant (kite-flying, ostensibly), the house parties were something to behold, with its ‘harem rooms’ – it felt like the last days of the Roman Empire. Let’s leave it at that.

 

I remember asking a Karachi-ite what people did of an evening and he said: we’re in the midst of a population explosion – what do you think?

 

Intoxication of any kind of prohibited, but in the tribal areas alcohol runs like water. In fact, that’s what it’s called – Khyber water. It’s purest, neatest hooch and will knock you out. Drug-taking is also publicly taboo. Yet in Karachi there is an entire street (by the main bus station if you’re curious) in which every single of about thirty shops sells various kinds of hasheesh. People I knew there had a taste for it so refined that they were like the most committed wine connoisseurs. When I once asked for fake bundles of hash as a film prop they brought in the real stuff.

 

Outwardly, all Pakistanis dress more or less alike in shalwas, etc. But go into the walled-off fashion college in Lahore and you’ll see the most daring stuff being designed and cat-walked.

 

If you go to see Pakistan’s most famous Sufi musicians, including those who perform around mosques, you’ll be joining in a drugged-up, hippy-ish audience – and the drugs are very much part of the experience. Always have been. This is because Sufism has always been the most popular form of Islam in the population centre of Pakistan (basically the Indus Valley), and spiritualism is accessed by way of some variant of cannabis. It’s also why Kabul was the terminus of the hippy trail up until the 1970s – you wouldn’t know or even guess today that Afghanistan was also the centre of a Sufi tune in/drop out religion that dominated a people’s lives. Go to a place like Sehwan Sharif in Sindh province, and you’ll be in a headlong party every single night. Sehwan Sharif is so holy that Hindus travel to it from India, with all the risks that entails. Or go to the wondrous Sufi shrines in outwardly super-conservative Multan – and you’ll notice that the shrines themselves dominate the skyline, and have tiny mosques attached – a very physical representation of priorities.

 

This isn’t the half of it – there’s lots I can’t say because it might put people at risk. But it does illustrate the difficulty of cut-and-dried categorisation. So Pakistanis in Pakistan aren’t so much different to us – they just party harder.

 

And answer PEW questions with pre-approved censoriousness. Things are not always as they seem.

Interesting stuff, as ever.

 

I think the point stands that a country where statistically no one is prepared to accept homosexuality in an opinion poll is pretty problematic.

 

The rest of what you say reminds me of Britain in the seventies - a general, latent disapproval/marginalising of homosexuality but still with **** Emery/Kenneth Williams/etc mincing about on the TV.

[sadoldgit]

I can't tell if SOG is a deluded but principled individual, ignoring reason in favour of an idealogical standpoint, or a network of trolls operating a parody account.

 

I am not a "Leftie" so I don't have an ideological standpoint as you call it. I asked for evidence because I don't follow what goes on with the "Left" and haven't been aware of Harman, who I have always assumed is strong on women's issues, wimping out. If she has done then all I asked for was for examples. I read somewhere that she agreed to a segregated audience at one meeting but she explained that was because she was trying to encourage more Muslim women to get involved in politics - not unreasonable.

As for me being "a network of trolls operating a parody account" seriously mate, WTF?

[Coxford_lou]

I do live these values every day , I wouldn't go anywhere that segregated women from men. In fact your ridiculous assertion that I'm some sort of sexist is based on the fact I think women are shyte at football . Try & get the sisterhood to get a game in some Muslim countries & you would probably get stoned .It's utterly bizzare how lefties , pinkos and bra burners like you jump up and down when a white male says anything sexist , yet want us to be tolerant of people who display real misogyny . can you imagine if Alabama or Mississippi treated women like Saudi Arabia does. The Greenham common brigade would have a permanet tented village outside America's London embassy.

 

Hey, if you're telling me you care about women's issues and worldwide equality, and you only use patronising language on here as a joke, then I'm more than happy to accept that.

 

However, if you're just using this as an example to bash supposed lefties and hypocrites on the head with, then I call you a hypocrite for doing so.

 

PS. Wtf is a pinko and what decade are you living in?!

[shurlock]

Can't have a thread on the subject without verbal's trademark reference to Wahhabism, Sufism and weed.

 

Alas he still looks at questions through a ponderous religious lens.

 

Another poster was right: low income countries moving fitfully from agriculture to industry tend to have similar conservative values, regardless of religion. While religion does introduce independent fault lines, though speaking about the Islamic world in vast, sweeping strokes is patently absurd given differences in historical traditions and colonial legacies, tribal cleavages, levels of economic development, the role and power of religious fundamentalists and identity politics, it's all too easy to be blinded by it.

 

At best, it's inaccurate; at worst, its positively dangerous when people start to slobber on about a clash of civilisations.

[Sour Mash]

Another poster was right: low income countries moving fitfully from agriculture to industry tend to have similar conservative values, regardless of religion.

Yeah, because that sums Saudi Arabia up to a tee

[Turkish]

I hate to introduce shades of grey into a black-and-white argument, but here goes.

 

Any question asked publicly by PEW or anyone else in Pakistan will elicit a public answer. Privately, things are very different.

 

Homosexuality is not punishable by death in Pakistan – but it is if you are ‘convicted’ of it in ‘shura’ courts in some more extreme areas. Yet amongst the Taliban homosexuality is rife.

 

You wouldn’t think there’d be much in the way of an LGBT movement in Pakistan. In fact, it’s been there in one form since the Mughals. Hijras – transgender men-to-women – are despised publicly, but because they are also thought to be bringers of good luck are regularly invited to Pakistani weddings. Hijras have this status partly because they were essential items at the Mughal court, and have remained deeply ingrained in the culture. In the hijra tradition, the most famous TV chat show host a few years ago was an ostentatiously gay man dressed as a woman.

 

Islam in its modern virulent Wahhabi form is sexually repressive, including in its alien presence in Pakistan. Yet the country’s most famous living painter is the son of a prostitute, who paints prostitutes for a living, who exhibits these paintings in a building that overlooks and faces onto one of the world’s most important Islamic sites, the Badshahi mosque in Lahore. You can view his paintings and then go upstairs and sit and have food on his veranda with the most spectacular view of the mosque.

 

His house is in the city’s red light district, which is now in the process of being preserved. I think it’s even been designated a world heritage site. In that red light district is a rather grand and very beautiful house which is a kind of Playboy mansion. During the festival of Basant (kite-flying, ostensibly), the house parties were something to behold, with its ‘harem rooms’ – it felt like the last days of the Roman Empire. Let’s leave it at that.

 

I remember asking a Karachi-ite what people did of an evening and he said: we’re in the midst of a population explosion – what do you think?

 

Intoxication of any kind of prohibited, but in the tribal areas alcohol runs like water. In fact, that’s what it’s called – Khyber water. It’s purest, neatest hooch and will knock you out. Drug-taking is also publicly taboo. Yet in Karachi there is an entire street (by the main bus station if you’re curious) in which every single of about thirty shops sells various kinds of hasheesh. People I knew there had a taste for it so refined that they were like the most committed wine connoisseurs. When I once asked for fake bundles of hash as a film prop they brought in the real stuff.

 

Outwardly, all Pakistanis dress more or less alike in shalwas, etc. But go into the walled-off fashion college in Lahore and you’ll see the most daring stuff being designed and cat-walked.

 

If you go to see Pakistan’s most famous Sufi musicians, including those who perform around mosques, you’ll be joining in a drugged-up, hippy-ish audience – and the drugs are very much part of the experience. Always have been. This is because Sufism has always been the most popular form of Islam in the population centre of Pakistan (basically the Indus Valley), and spiritualism is accessed by way of some variant of cannabis. It’s also why Kabul was the terminus of the hippy trail up until the 1970s – you wouldn’t know or even guess today that Afghanistan was also the centre of a Sufi tune in/drop out religion that dominated a people’s lives. Go to a place like Sehwan Sharif in Sindh province, and you’ll be in a headlong party every single night. Sehwan Sharif is so holy that Hindus travel to it from India, with all the risks that entails. Or go to the wondrous Sufi shrines in outwardly super-conservative Multan – and you’ll notice that the shrines themselves dominate the skyline, and have tiny mosques attached – a very physical representation of priorities.

 

This isn’t the half of it – there’s lots I can’t say because it might put people at risk. But it does illustrate the difficulty of cut-and-dried categorisation. So Pakistanis in Pakistan aren’t so much different to us – they just party harder.

 

And answer PEW questions with pre-approved censoriousness. Things are not always as they seem.

 

Who exactly is going to be "put at risk" by you rambling on about what goes on in Pakistan on a Southampton football forum overrun by wierdos that no one gives a sh*t about?

[sadoldgit]

As I have been accused of spouting "dangerous" views on another thread perhaps it is time to dispel any ideas that I may be a threat to national security by sharing this snippet of information. Are you sitting comfortably (you know who you are).

A close neighbour and friend is a retired Colonel and used to work in British/American intelligence. He served in Northern Ireland and was heavily involved in Desert Storm. In short, he is not someone like the rest of us who sits down killing time by talking b*ll*cks on the internet. He is someone who has been there, done it and worn the t-shirt.

He is very much against the bombing of Syria. He doesn't believe that the bombing to date has achieved anything worthwhile and that future bombing will make any difference apart from maybe radicalising more young men to go and get themselves killed. He believes that there are other ways of disabling IS and dealing with the issues in the middle east that don't entail turning a pile of rubble into a smaller pile of rubble. His ideas are nothing new - cutting off funding, arms supplies etc. Better education. Dealing head on with the issues with the Saudis, Turks etc. As I say nothing new but this is a man who served in the army to a high rank and believes that we will not be made safer by the bombings. Now the usual suspects can call me names all day long and pretend that my opinions are somehow "dangerous" but come and spend some time in our local and this guy will wipe the floor with you arguments because he has seen first hand what continued violence has done in the region. And guess what? He also believes that the vast majority of Muslims want a peaceful co-existence. And guess what again? There are millions of people in the country who think the same way. So does that make us all "dangerous?"

[sadoldgit]

Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford etc?

 

What are these? Away fixtures you have been too? Can you kindly post me some links so I at least know what you are talking about? Cheers.

[Guan 2.0]

I am not a "Leftie" so I don't have an ideological standpoint as you call it. I asked for evidence because I don't follow what goes on with the "Left" and haven't been aware of Harman, who I have always assumed is strong on women's issues, wimping out. If she has done then all I asked for was for examples. I read somewhere that she agreed to a segregated audience at one meeting but she explained that was because she was trying to encourage more Muslim women to get involved in politics - not unreasonable.

As for me being "a network of trolls operating a parody account" seriously mate, WTF?

 

It's always so trying with you...

 

1. When did I call you a 'Leftie'?

2. When did I say anything about Harman?

3. When did I talk about segregated meetings?

4. If those comments aren't addressed to me, why mention them in reply to my post?

[shurlock]

Yeah, because that sums Saudi Arabia up to a tee

 

What's your point?

[sadoldgit]

It's always so trying with you...

 

1. When did I call you a 'Leftie'?

2. When did I say anything about Harman?

3. When did I talk about segregated meetings?

4. If those comments aren't addressed to me, why mention them in reply to my post?

 

Trying? More so than being called a troll? I was responding to both you and others. You mentioned an "ideological standpoint." I don't know what that means but the going rate here seems to be if you say anything in support of moderate peaceful Muslims you have to be a "Leftie." You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about me ever since I called you on posting the picture of the massacre in Paris. Sorry if you took offence but I still maintain that a football forum is not the place for that kind of stuff.

[Sour Mash]

What's your point?

That your suggestion that "conservative" Islamic behaviours are somehow just a temporary result of a transition between agricultural and industrial societies and are not something closely tied with Islam.

Do you consider Saudi Arabia part of the "low income countries moving fitfully from agriculture to industry"?

[Sour Mash]

What are these? Away fixtures you have been too? Can you kindly post me some links so I at least know what you are talking about? Cheers.

It's pretty obvious what he is referring to, not hard to look up is it.

[Guan 2.0]

Trying? More so than being called a troll? I was responding to both you and others. You mentioned an "ideological standpoint." I don't know what that means but the going rate here seems to be if you say anything in support of moderate peaceful Muslims you have to be a "Leftie." You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about me ever since I called you on posting the picture of the massacre in Paris. Sorry if you took offence but I still maintain that a football forum is not the place for that kind of stuff.

 

No, I generally don't get a bee in my bonnet about anything, I just dislike those who spam threads endlessly hoping that if they repeat the same phrases ad nauseum, people will get tired of the onslaught and leave the thread, or think "Hmm, didn't agree with the argument the first hundred times, but the second century really knocked my existing beliefs for six". As for Ideology, if there's a god of serial contrarians who fancy themselves iconoclasts, then surely you worship at his alter.

 

You say you resent being called a troll, yet in the run up to military strikes in Syria you were happy to invent phrases and positions that other posters had not expressed, and then argued against them. Most damning of all, just 4 posts previously, you wrote this:

 

Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford etc?

 

What are these? Away fixtures you have been too? Can you kindly post me some links so I at least know what you are talking about? Cheers.

 

As amusing as your flippant response might be to you, I'm not sure the victims of horrific gang-rape, long term beatings and burnings would find your feigned ignorance as humorous. And you have the gall to bring up taste and decency about a factual account of a massacre, presented without editing for reasons of verity?

[hypochondriac]

I am not a "Leftie" so I don't have an ideological standpoint as you call it. I asked for evidence because I don't follow what goes on with the "Left" and haven't been aware of Harman, who I have always assumed is strong on women's issues, wimping out. If she has done then all I asked for was for examples. I read somewhere that she agreed to a segregated audience at one meeting but she explained that was because she was trying to encourage more Muslim women to get involved in politics - not unreasonable.

As for me being "a network of trolls operating a parody account" seriously mate, WTF?

 

Well the fact that you continue to try to debate in this topic despite blocking those you disagree with and despite being embarrassed frequently suggests you are very troll like.

[shurlock]

That your suggestion that "conservative" Islamic behaviours are somehow just a temporary result of a transition between agricultural and industrial societies and are not something closely tied with Islam.

Do you consider Saudi Arabia part of the "low income countries moving fitfully from agriculture to industry"?

 

I guess you haven't heard of oil?

 

If Saudi Arabia hadn't lucked out and won the natural resources lottery 70-80 years ago, it would have remained economically, in the words of a Lebanese friend, a tribal s**thole, struggling to diversify away from pearl fishing and other basic activities.

 

Why should values have kept up with new found oil wealth (which in turn has retarded other processes of modernisation and institution-building). It is an utter outlier and probably the worst example you could find to support your point.

Edited 9 December, 2015 by shurlock

[Sour Mash]

I guess you haven't heard of oil?

 

If Saudi Arabia hadn't lucked out and won the natural resources lottery 70-80 years ago, it would have remained economically, in the words of a Lebanese friend, a tribal s**thole, struggling to diversify away from pearl fishing and other basic activities.

 

Why should values have kept up with new found oil wealth (which in turn has retarded other processes of modernisation and institution-building). It is an utter outlier and probably the worst example you could find to support your point.

Yeah, I've never heard of oil, just lucked out proving your point wrong I guess.

[shurlock]

Yeah, I've never heard of oil, just lucked out proving your point wrong I guess.

 

My point stands, as illustrated by your complete inability to respond to it.