CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Alistair Horne's book is a good place to start. Indeed it is. It surely takes no great leap of imagination to see that the relationship formed between a immigrant coming from a former colony, and someone arriving who has no connection at all between their old home and new will be subtly different to some degree. There may well be other cultural differences between African and Middle Eastern cultures too. Having said that, those responsible for the earlier 'Charlie Hebdo' massacre were indeed second generation French citizens of N African descent. Therefore, those claiming that our enemy now comes from 'within' do have a reasonable point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Would you say that we are culturally identical to Botswana? With the same views and motives? We are both classed as Anglican.. How is that relevant to anything discussed in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Now you actually know about it, perhaps you can read up. Here's a start: http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2015/01/16-algerian-legacy-past-france-laurence I don't have to read have a big read up every time you can't explain the relevance of something thankfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 I don't have to read have a big read up every time you can't explain the relevance of something thankfully. The fact there might just be some weeny little differences between British Muslims originating primarily from the Indian subcontinent and French Muslims originating primarily from North Africa is pretty freaking obvious really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 The fact there might just be some weeny little differences between British Muslims originating primarily from the Indian subcontinent and French Muslims originating primarily from North Africa is pretty freaking obvious really. Yes, but what relevance does that have to this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 any zany conspiracy theories out there yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Recent details about how many attacks thwarted in this country and 7/7 shows we are just as much a target as France. France does have prison population estimated at 70% Muslim - no such rehab or education done in there so no surprise radicalising ideologies take root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 How is that relevant to anything discussed in this thread? Yes, but what relevance does that have to this thread? You indicated that country of origin was irrelevant, and that the views of a North African Muslim would be the same as any other. Your argument is based on the assumption that religion is the only factor involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Recent details about how many attacks thwarted in this country and 7/7 shows we are just as much a target as France. France does have prison population estimated at 70% Muslim - no such rehab or education done in there so no surprise radicalising ideologies take root. Just heard on Sky News that many Muslims in France feel excluded from society and that there are not enough jobs for them etc. the right in France (apparently) suggest the muslim community feel excluded because they have come to their country over the years in large numbers, saturated the jobs markets - particularly the low skilled - and want france to change to suit them rather than they fit into the french way of life.. who knows just a few thoughts from some bloke on telly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Syrian passport found on body of one of the #ParisAttacks perpetrators at Stade de France, police say https://t.co/e6B9jWLc1G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Syrian passport found on body of one of the #ParisAttacks perpetrators at Stade de France, police say https://t.co/e6B9jWLc1G ISIS dill tell us that this would happen meanwhile, the SNP are flying people direct from Syria straight to Glasgow, next week we really live in weird times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Just heard on Sky News that many Muslims in France feel excluded from society and that there are not enough jobs for them etc. the right in France (apparently) suggest the muslim community feel excluded because they have come to their country over the years in large numbers, saturated the jobs markets - particularly the low skilled - and want france to change to suit them rather than they fit into the french way of life.. who knows just a few thoughts from some bloke on telly Sounds about right. You can't generalise though, too many immigrants and too much unemployment caused by the same thing. Over generous state security benefit. Five kids gets you more than a low paid job which can't exist anyway because of the savage taxation of employment to pay for benefits. Catch 22 situation. The loony left at it's finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Yes, but what relevance does that have to this thread? You tell me, you started it. The heavy North African contingent gives the Muslim population in France a very different feel than the one in the UK. Talk of Muslims, in the abstract, probably obscures rather than illuminates things. What fundamental difference does it make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 The big question IMO - Is it now time for ground forces to go into Syria and Iraq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 The big question IMO - Is it now time for ground forces to go into Syria and Iraq? Won't be the French, they're already overstretched in Mali and the C.A.R. Let the Russians and Iranians do it this time...oh wait aren't they already......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Latest news reports have said the Germans have arrested a man with close links to those involved in the attacks. They are suggesting those involved entered France via German and Belgium. Elsewhere many are phoning in to say, contrary to government statements, many border crossings aren't being manned and one can enter or leave France with no border checks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 (edited) The big question IMO - Is it now time for ground forces to go into Syria and Iraq? IMO, Europe should immediately cease the 'free movement' policy across the board. stop the march of migrants heading west and tell them to stay where they are and they have no hope of getting over here. stop picking people up from the med and turn them away from southern europe. and finally, step up the effort against these people. Lets be honest, the US and Russia could flatten half the world on their own but we can play our part. obviously, people like cumberbach and other rich lefty types should just shut the **** up. The UK is a pretty fair place but the hell should we just import hundreds of thousands from that region? sadly, the european response will be pathetic and we will continue to skirt around the edges on Syria and the wider region. something tragic will happen again within 12 months Edited 14 November, 2015 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 (edited) Latest news reports have said the Germans have arrested a man with close links to those involved in the attacks. They are suggesting those involved entered France via German and Belgium. Elsewhere many are phoning in to say, contrary to government statements, many border crossings aren't being manned and one can enter or leave France with no border checks, Last night the lefty idiot said that the borders would be closed, not controlled, closed. This morning, nope that's not right but there will be controls at all borders. Tomorrow it will be the usual free for all and Marine will ride to victory in half of the regions next month...sad, sad state of affairs. My girl came back from Spain this morning, just drove up the E15- A9 as per usual, no control, nothing. Then again perhaps they're pretty sure that blonde girls driving Minis aren't terrorists. Clueless. Edited 14 November, 2015 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Last night the lefty idiot said that the borders would be closed, not controlled, closed. This morning, nope that's not right but there will be controls at all borders. Tomorrow it will be the usual free for all and Marine will ride to victory in half of the regions next month...sad, sad state of affairs. My girl came back from Spain this morning, just drove up the E15- A9 as per usual, no control, nothing. Then again perhaps they're pretty sure that blonde girls driving Minis aren't terrorists. Clueless. what will happen if they win half of the regions in france? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 It's OK. Some have told us all we need to do is talk to them and it will all be fine. Not for the fist time you have completely missed the point, I said that the only way this conflict will finally end will result in people sitting around a table. To make such a cheap point in the aftermath of what happened last night does you no credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Not for the fist time you have completely missed the point, I said that the only way this conflict will finally end will result in people sitting around a table. To make such a cheap point in the aftermath of what happened last night does you no credit. And you would be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 what will happen if they win half of the regions in france? Fark all, the indigenous lefties will prevent them from doing anything whatsoever. The lefties control everything except the police and the armed forces, Mitterandian policies made sure of that. There will be some sort of national priorities for a couple of weeks in anything the FN control as there was in the towns they won last time round, then will come the legal blocking of everything and anything as the justice is majoritarily far far left. France is ungovernable because of the leftist apparatus put into place by Mitterand and the Communists in the 80s; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Not for the fist time you have completely missed the point, I said that the only way this conflict will finally end will result in people sitting around a table. To make such a cheap point in the aftermath of what happened last night does you no credit. To negotiate what exactly? This is not Ireland or the Basque region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Just proves that simply talking to these people is an idiotic plan. They don't negotiate. So what do we do. Kill all Muslims? Good plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 So what do we do. Kill all Muslims? Good plan. yeah, it's either do nothing or kill all muslims NOTHING in between Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 (edited) Yes, but what relevance does that have to this thread? Its relevant because France’s experience with its former colonies -Algeria in particular- is far more traumatic than anything the UK went through in its process of decolonisation, thank f**k. That trauma –and that’s what it is, if you anything about France- has festered for years, creating mutual animosity and significant barriers to integration today. Nearly 1.5m Algerian Muslims died in the conflict, including the 1961 Paris massacre on French soil; and when the war ended, France effectively turned its back on Algerian-Muslim loyalists – those who escaped reprisals in Algeria -forced swallowing of French military medals, followed by mass graves was the order of the day- they were flat-out denied rights in France -many were initially interned; and then moved into deprived housing estates that have made Bradford look like a multicultural nirvana. Various French governments, labouring under their own Republican conceits and amour propre, have been in a schizophrenic relationship with French Algerians ever since. Never mind, that France’s messy exit from Algeria, if not ongoing meddling left a decades-long vacuum that has been variously filled by nationalists and fundamentalists when the country hasn’t been in civil war. So yeh it is all relevant but only here, it seems, are you challenged because of you’ve read too much –and the other side cant be a***d to. Edited 14 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 So what do we do. Kill all Muslims? Good plan. You are getting confused between Muslims in general and Radical Islamic Integrists I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Pretty despicable that SadOldGit equates yesterday's events with "all Muslims". Sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 To negotiate what exactly? This is not Ireland or the Basque region. Simplistically we have to find a way of living together and that will only happen by speaking to each other. The only alternative is to carry on killing each other in perpetuity. Hypo is convinced that the only way to deal with the situation is to kill all Extreme Muslims on the basis that they will never give up. There were people in Japan ion WW2 who vowed to fight to the death as also in the Korean War, Vietnamese War etc but eventually these conflicts do end and that involves both sides talking to each other. The other alternative is genocide. We make a big fuss about killing Jihadi John and they go a step further and butcher more innocent civilians. What have we gained? The killing just goes spiralling on and on. We share this planet and we have to find a way to co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 yeah, it's either do nothing or kill all muslims NOTHING in between Perhaps you would like to start with those in the picture you posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Simplistically we have to find a way of living together and that will only happen by speaking to each other. The only alternative is to carry on killing each other in perpetuity. Hypo is convinced that the only way to deal with the situation is to kill all Extreme Muslims on the basis that they will never give up. There were people in Japan ion WW2 who vowed to fight to the death as also in the Korean War, Vietnamese War etc but eventually these conflicts do end and that involves both sides talking to each other. The other alternative is genocide. We make a big fuss about killing Jihadi John and they go a step further and butcher more innocent civilians. What have we gained? The killing just goes spiralling on and on. We share this planet and we have to find a way to co-exist. How is this conversation going to go exactly. If you were the negotiator, what do you offer them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 You are getting confused between Muslims in general and Radical Islamic Integrists I think. I was being facetious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Simplistically we have to find a way of living together and that will only happen by speaking to each other. The only alternative is to carry on killing each other in perpetuity. Hypo is convinced that the only way to deal with the situation is to kill all Extreme Muslims on the basis that they will never give up. There were people in Japan ion WW2 who vowed to fight to the death as also in the Korean War, Vietnamese War etc but eventually these conflicts do end and that involves both sides talking to each other. The other alternative is genocide. We make a big fuss about killing Jihadi John and they go a step further and butcher more innocent civilians. What have we gained? The killing just goes spiralling on and on. We share this planet and we have to find a way to co-exist. I'll ask again. To negotiate what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 This is pretty grim from a Le Monde reporter, and looking at the lady hanging onto the building it's amazing what the body can achieve in self preservation mode. Warning: This is un edited with scenes none of us would ever like to see. http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-paris/article/2015/11/14/daniel-psenny-journaliste-au-monde-j-ai-senti-comme-un-petard-qui-explosait-dans-mon-bras_4809665_4809495.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 How is this conversation going to go exactly. If you were the negotiator, what do you offer them? How do all peace talks start? You set up a peace process and you follow it through. It isn't going to happen over night but if all you do is kill all you are going to get is death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 14 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2015 I'll ask again. To negotiate what exactly? What do you think? Do you think this situation is sustainable? Extreme Muslims will know that, no matter what they might say, they are not going to bring the West to its knees and at some point we have to find a way to co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 What do you think? Do you think this situation is sustainable? Extreme Muslims will know that, no matter what they might say, they are not going to bring the West to its knees and at some point we have to find a way to co-exist. You can't co-exist with extreme fundamentalists wherever they sporn from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 How do all peace talks start? You set up a peace process and you follow it through. It isn't going to happen over night but if all you do is kill all you are going to get is death. That's like going to a Hollywood film producer and saying, "I've got this great title for a movie, all I need is a story line and a script to go with it." What is your peace process? That's just a phrase, a political buzzword to reassure the masses. What specific actions would you take to bring about peace in the middle East? What would you offer ISIS in exchange for a ceasefire on their behalf? What is it that they want, which you are prepared to give them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolsaint29 Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 yeah, it's either do nothing or kill all muslims NOTHING in between Can I please nominate this post to the saintsweb award for " most idiotic, narrow minded fuctard" of the year comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 How do all peace talks start? You set up a peace process and you follow it through. Oh, right. Set up a peace process and follow it through. Weird really that no one on the planet had thought of that until now. Thank God/Mohammad you're here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Can I please nominate this post to the saintsweb award for " most idiotic, narrow minded fuctard" of the year comment. I think his post linking this all to refugees and the EU trumps that TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC1906 Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Can I please nominate this post to the saintsweb award for " most idiotic, narrow minded fuctard" of the year comment. I think you might want to go back and read the comments before Batman's - then you will see the context in which his comment was written. He was sarcastically responding to someone else's ridiculous comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Can I please nominate this post to the saintsweb award for " most idiotic, narrow minded fuctard" of the year comment. You realise it was sarcasm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 What do you think? Do you think this situation is sustainable? Extreme Muslims will know that, no matter what they might say, they are not going to bring the West to its knees and at some point we have to find a way to co-exist. They believe that we are all infidels and that life on earth is only temporary until they reach paradise. I am afraid there is no room for compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 Its relevant because France’s experience with its former colonies -Algeria in particular- is far more traumatic than anything the UK went through in its process of decolonisation, thank f**k. That trauma –and that’s what it is, if you anything about France- has festered for years, creating mutual animosity and significant barriers to integration today. Nearly 1.5m Algerian Muslims died in the conflict, including the 1961 Paris massacre on French soil; and when the war ended, France effectively turned its back on Algerian-Muslim loyalists – those who escaped reprisals in Algeria -forced swallowing of French military medals, followed by mass graves was the order of the day- they were flat-out denied rights in France -many were initially interned; and then moved into deprived housing estates that have made Bradford look like a multicultural nirvana. Various French governments, labouring under their own Republican conceits and amour propre, have been in a schizophrenic relationship with French Algerians ever since. Never mind, that France’s messy exit from Algeria, if not ongoing meddling left a decades-long vacuum that has been variously filled by nationalists and fundamentalists when the country hasn’t been in civil war. So yeh it is all relevant but only here, it seems, are you challenged because of you’ve read too much –and the other side cant be a***d to. Doesn't sound like the history of a country applying too many liberal and looney left policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 How do all peace talks start? You set up a peace process and you follow it through. It isn't going to happen over night but if all you do is kill all you are going to get is death. Well you're right in that most wars either end in defeat for one side, or around a negotiating table. That latter situation is afterall what happened in Ulster's 'long war' - but only of course after decades of bloody slaughter. Frankly, we are nowhere near sitting down and talking to ISIL extremists at this time, primarily because they don't accept that victory for their cause is impossible. This war is as yet a young one I'm sorry to say. Now I can see that you require no lectures from me on this (obvious) fact of historical life SOG. The usual suspects on here however seem more interested in tiresome point scoring, rather than engaging in a proper debate. Which is in pretty bad taste today of all days I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 They believe that we are all infidels and that life on earth is only temporary until they reach paradise. I am afraid there is no room for compromise. Supposedly we are meant to disregard what they say because eventually they will negotiate? What evidence does anyone have of this? The fact is that they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 I think you might want to go back and read the comments before Batman's - then you will see the context in which his comment was written. He was sarcastically responding to someone else's ridiculous comment. Very hard to tell with batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 14 November, 2015 Share Posted 14 November, 2015 (edited) I love that chapel end Charlie's response about how bad taste point scoring is is in itself a form of point scoring. Be honest, your post would not exist had the conversation about homosexual footballers never happened. You're just as pompous and prepared to point score as everyone else on this message board. Maybe a bit more pompous tbh. Edited 14 November, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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