egg Posted January 1 Posted January 1 2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Weren't the basic facts : nutter drives car, at speed, into crowded Christmas market killing people innocently going about their business? Yes. No colour., creed, religion amongst that. When those facts are known then those facts can be discussed. Most people don't come onto a forum posting their assumptions about those absent facts.
hypochondriac Posted January 1 Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, egg said: Manners have nothing to do with you rushing to blame a group of people before awaiting even the basic facts. I didn't realise you actually expected a comment on your daft mcvities analogy. You could have responded to the first part of my post if you didn't like the analogy. I'm not even trying to wind you up, I just genuinely don't understand how you could think that Christmas market attacks involving running people over is likely to be anything other than a radical Islamist. I think the fear of being accused of Islamaphobia does weird things to people's brains. What if the next three Christmas period attacks involving running people over turns out to be extreme Islamists? Is it still an unreasonable assumption to make that the next one will be the same thing? How is statistics a difficult concept?
hypochondriac Posted January 1 Posted January 1 (edited) 1 minute ago, egg said: Yes. No colour., creed, religion amongst that. When those facts are known then those facts can be discussed. Most people don't come onto a forum posting their assumptions about those absent facts. How many nutters driving into Christmas markets killing innocent people have turned out to be someone other than an Islamist as a percentage do you think? Other than this recent German case which seems pretty suspect, I can't think of any. Edited January 1 by hypochondriac
Weston Super Saint Posted January 1 Posted January 1 Just now, egg said: Yes. No colour., creed, religion amongst that. When those facts are known then those facts can be discussed. Most people don't come onto a forum posting their assumptions about those absent facts. I believe Hypo is trying to say that since, historically, the overwhelming majority of those incidents have been committed by Islamists, then the immediate assumption is that is what has happened again. Similarly, if the basic facts were : 2 gangs of youths were fighting in the street throwing chairs and bricks at each other just after the Milwall Pompey game finished, the assumption would be that this was quite likely a 'football hooliganism' incident. 2
egg Posted January 1 Posted January 1 Just now, hypochondriac said: You could have responded to the first part of my post if you didn't like the analogy. I'm not even trying to wind you up, I just genuinely don't understand how you could think that Christmas market attacks involving running people over is likely to be anything other than a radical Islamist. I think the fear of being accused of Islamaphobia does weird things to people's brains. What if the next three Christmas period attacks involving running people over turns out to be extreme Islamists? Is it still an unreasonable assumption to make that the next one will be the same thing? How is statistics a difficult concept? I don't assume that a particular religious group is at fault. Await the facts, the discuss. It's not complicated if you can keep your assumptions to one side. I have no fear of being accused of islamaphobia as I am not islamaphobic. I think some on this forum are though. 2
egg Posted January 1 Posted January 1 Just now, Weston Super Saint said: I believe Hypo is trying to say that since, historically, the overwhelming majority of those incidents have been committed by Islamists, then the immediate assumption is that is what has happened again. Similarly, if the basic facts were : 2 gangs of youths were fighting in the street throwing chairs and bricks at each other just after the Milwall Pompey game finished, the assumption would be that this was quite likely a 'football hooliganism' incident. I understand his point. I also know that he is unnecessarily quick to blame the Muslims. He's not alone. 1
whelk Posted January 1 Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: I think the fear of being accused of Islamaphobia does weird things to people's brains. Indeed - akin to being brainwashed as they are constantly receiving a narrative about nasty uninformed Islamophobes. Don’t want to come across as one of them eh
aintforever Posted January 1 Posted January 1 4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: You could have responded to the first part of my post if you didn't like the analogy. I'm not even trying to wind you up, I just genuinely don't understand how you could think that Christmas market attacks involving running people over is likely to be anything other than a radical Islamist. I think the fear of being accused of Islamaphobia does weird things to people's brains. What if the next three Christmas period attacks involving running people over turns out to be extreme Islamists? Is it still an unreasonable assumption to make that the next one will be the same thing? How is statistics a difficult concept? Obviously anyone with half a brain knows there was a possibility the person responsible was a Muslim extremist, it just makes sense to wait until the facts are know before pointing the finger and slagging off a religion. 1 1
hypochondriac Posted January 1 Posted January 1 2 minutes ago, egg said: I understand his point. I also know that he is unnecessarily quick to blame the Muslims. He's not alone. Indeed. You understand the point but the reason you think the assumption is unreasonable is because it involves a religion which is exactly why I tried to use an analogy for something mundane to try to make the point. If something happens very very frequently then it's not unreasonable to make an assumption that that is what will happen again. The only reason you have a problem with that statement regarding this issue is because it involves Islam.
hypochondriac Posted January 1 Posted January 1 (edited) 7 minutes ago, aintforever said: Obviously anyone with half a brain knows there was a possibility the person responsible was a Muslim extremist, it just makes sense to wait until the facts are know before pointing the finger and slagging off a religion. I never mentioned anything about it being merely a possibility. I said it was the most likely outcome statistically. Which it quite clearly is I don't see how that is controversial it's factually accurate. And I have no problem at all with 'slagging off a religion.' I resent that some fictional ideology has inspired nutters to kill innocent people and forced authorities around the world to erect bollards amongst many other security measures to try to prevent mass murder. I'd be much happier with that not happening. I hate other fictional ideologies that inspire evil like Scientology as well, it's just that that affects a much smaller group of people. Edited January 1 by hypochondriac
The Kraken Posted January 1 Posted January 1 (edited) FBI press conference updates: IEDs were found in the car as well as at least two other IEDs found planted separately in the French Quarter. None detonated and have now been rendered safe They don't believe the attacker acted alone and are aggressively tracking down potential associateS Edited January 1 by The Kraken
hypochondriac Posted January 1 Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, The Kraken said: FBI press conference updates: IEDs were found in the car as well as at least two other IEDs found planted separately in the French Quarter. None detonated and have now been rendered safe They don't believe the attacker acted alone and are aggressively tracking down potential associates Death toll has risen to at least 15 😪 Appalling. Best not to make assumptions about the potential associates though just to be on the safe side. That would be unreasonable...
RedArmy Posted January 1 Posted January 1 Interesting that this followed a very similar MO to the German market but one was Isis and the other a far right former Muslim. What are the chances? I guess they’ll find a MAGA hat in the back of that pickup any moment now.
whelk Posted January 1 Posted January 1 (edited) 4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: Appalling. Best not to make assumptions about the potential associates though just to be on the safe side. That would be unreasonable... As to motive, start by making sure you visit all the bars in Bourbon St and ask them had he previously been drinking there and had any grudges with the bouncers The Isis flag on the truck was probably the original owners and he hadn’t bothered removing Edited January 1 by whelk 1
badgerx16 Posted January 2 Posted January 2 "Police are investigating the explosion of a Tesla Cybertruck outside the Trump Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. Police said a truck pulled up in front of the hotel on Wednesday near a glass entrance, then smoke started coming from the vehicle and it exploded. The driver was killed and seven people were injured, police said without naming any of the individuals involved. Officials said all injuries were minor. In a post on X, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said the explosion "was caused by very large fireworks and/or a bomb carried in the bed of the rented Cybertruck and is unrelated to the vehicle itself". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7qd97eyp0o
Mixedkebab Posted January 2 Posted January 2 8 hours ago, egg said: I understand his point. I also know that he is unnecessarily quick to blame the Muslims. He's not alone. Await the facts and discuss is the way to go. Like when you posted there was a big mob at the Brewhouse back in the summer vowing to target anyone who “ain’t” white. Facts are good, bullshit ain’t. 2
Sarnia Cherie Posted January 2 Posted January 2 15 hours ago, hypochondriac said: Remember it's evil and prejudiced to hear about a car mowing down innocent people over the Christmas period and speculate that he perpetrator is statistically very likely to be an Islamist. Did we find out if this was the case for the bloke in Germany by the way? I read that as Germany have decided to send some Syrians back to their own country his actions were a protest about this. I believe he was Syrian himself.
badgerx16 Posted January 2 Posted January 2 5 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said: I read that as Germany have decided to send some Syrians back to their own country his actions were a protest about this. I believe he was Syrian himself. He is Saudi.
badgerx16 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 ''The man who rented a Tesla Cybertruck that exploded outside the Trump Hotel in Las Vegas was an active-duty US special forces soldier and shot himself dead before the blast, officials have said. Las Vegas police have identified Matthew Alan Livelsberger, 37, of Colorado Springs, Colorado, as the driver of the vehicle in the explosion investigation. Mr Livelsberger's cause of death suicide from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, according to the Clark County Coroner's office.'' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wnx174q8o
ChrisPY Posted January 3 Posted January 3 On 02/01/2025 at 14:42, badgerx16 said: He is Saudi. Vorsprung durch terrorismus
Turkish Posted January 20 Posted January 20 See the Southport guy has pleaded guilty to 3 counts of murder.
hypochondriac Posted January 20 Posted January 20 The face of evil if ever I saw one. Reminds me of this
hypochondriac Posted January 20 Posted January 20 Given that we've had Prevent investigations for all manner of things, it appears quite incredible that Radukabana was referred three times and it was deemed that intervention was not required. Seems there's a case to answer there about if the system is fit for purpose. Is Prevent turning a blind eye to certain types of extremism?
AlexLaw76 Posted January 20 Posted January 20 Looks very different from the school boy image we were originally given.
whelk Posted January 20 Posted January 20 1 hour ago, hypochondriac said: Given that we've had Prevent investigations for all manner of things, it appears quite incredible that Radukabana was referred three times and it was deemed that intervention was not required. Seems there's a case to answer there about if the system is fit for purpose. Is Prevent turning a blind eye to certain types of extremism? Prevent is pretty there to stop Islamic extremism. 1
Mixedkebab Posted January 20 Posted January 20 (edited) 34 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Looks very different from the school boy image we were originally given. I do wonder what that was all about, I struggle to remember any other cases where a murderer was shown as a school kid Edited January 20 by Mixedkebab
Weston Super Saint Posted January 20 Posted January 20 3 minutes ago, Mixedkebab said: I do wonder what that was all about, I struggle to remember any other cases where a murderer was shown as a school kid Robert Thompson, John Venables? 1
hypochondriac Posted January 20 Posted January 20 1 hour ago, whelk said: Prevent is pretty there to stop Islamic extremism. But we are told on here all the time that the real problem is far right extremism. 2
Turkish Posted January 20 Posted January 20 (edited) seems like a lot of stuff coming out now that wasn't allowed to be before. He had planned the attack, he had been refferred to the terror prevention program 3 times for accessing massacre materials on school computers along with stuff relating to the libya and london terror attacks and he was making ricin at home. Yet didn't they deny it was terror related and all the fault of the "far right"? Wasnt he just a welsh choir boy? Edited January 20 by Turkish 1
Turkish Posted January 20 Posted January 20 Keir Starmer admits the state 'failed' Southport victims and there are 'grave questions to answer' after counter-terror scheme cleared child-killer THREE times | Daily Mail Online But they said it wasn't terror related???
aintforever Posted January 20 Posted January 20 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Turkish said: Keir Starmer admits the state 'failed' Southport victims and there are 'grave questions to answer' after counter-terror scheme cleared child-killer THREE times | Daily Mail Online But they said it wasn't terror related??? “Police have found no evidence that the Southport attack was motivated by political, religious, racial or ideological causes, meaning it cannot be classed as an act of terrorism despite him having possession of a document proscribed under terrorism laws.” That was from the report on the Guardian. Edited January 20 by aintforever
Turkish Posted January 20 Posted January 20 23 minutes ago, aintforever said: “Police have found no evidence that the Southport attack was motivated by political, religious, racial or ideological causes, meaning it cannot be classed as an act of terrorism despite him having possession of a document proscribed under terrorism laws.” That was from the report on the Guardian. perhaps the police were wrong? The Guardian 🤦 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/southport-attack-trial-latest-public-inquiry-announced-after-rudakubana-was-referred-to-anti-terror-scheme/ar-AA1xw0I6 The announcement came after it emerged Rudakubana was referred to an anti-extremism programme three times before he carried out the murders, and endangered his former teachers and peers. Yvette Cooper confirmed the 18-year-old had “contact with a range of different state agencies throughout his teenage years” before carrying out his “meticulously planned rampage” at a Taylor Swift-themed dance class
Weston Super Saint Posted January 20 Posted January 20 41 minutes ago, aintforever said: “Police have found no evidence that the Southport attack was motivated by political, religious, racial or ideological causes, meaning it cannot be classed as an act of terrorism despite him having possession of a document proscribed under terrorism laws.” That was from the report on the Guardian. I guess he was just a mad Ariane Grande fan then and hated everything Taylor Swift related. Seems like the most obvious explanation. 3
aintforever Posted January 20 Posted January 20 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Turkish said: perhaps the police were wrong? The Guardian 🤦 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/southport-attack-trial-latest-public-inquiry-announced-after-rudakubana-was-referred-to-anti-terror-scheme/ar-AA1xw0I6 The announcement came after it emerged Rudakubana was referred to an anti-extremism programme three times before he carried out the murders, and endangered his former teachers and peers. Yvette Cooper confirmed the 18-year-old had “contact with a range of different state agencies throughout his teenage years” before carrying out his “meticulously planned rampage” at a Taylor Swift-themed dance class He is obviously a sick fuck and as mad as a box of frogs but that does not necessarily make him a terrorist. From the Merseyside Police Chief Constable: “We will never know why he did it," she said, adding: "What we can say is that from all those documents no one ideology was uncovered, and that is why this was not treated as terrorism." Edited January 20 by aintforever 1
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 (edited) 13 hours ago, aintforever said: He is obviously a sick fuck and as mad as a box of frogs but that does not necessarily make him a terrorist. From the Merseyside Police Chief Constable: “We will never know why he did it," she said, adding: "What we can say is that from all those documents no one ideology was uncovered, and that is why this was not treated as terrorism." looks like the police were wrong as i said. Starmer says UK faces new threat and ‘terrorism has changed’ after Axel Rudakubana Southport killings – latest | The Independent Rudakubana, of Banks, Lancashire, pleaded guilty to 16 offences, including three counts of murder and 10 counts of attempted murder at Liverpool Crown Court on Monday, as well as producing the deadly poison ricin and possessing an al-Qaeda training manual. Edited January 21 by Turkish
badgerx16 Posted January 21 Posted January 21 7 minutes ago, Turkish said: looks like the police were wrong as i said. Starmer says UK faces new threat and ‘terrorism has changed’ after Axel Rudakubana Southport killings – latest | The Independent Rudakubana, of Banks, Lancashire, pleaded guilty to 16 offences, including three counts of murder and 10 counts of attempted murder at Liverpool Crown Court on Monday, as well as producing the deadly poison ricin and possessing an al-Qaeda training manual. If I got hold of a copy of Mein Kampf would that make me a Nazi ?
aintforever Posted January 21 Posted January 21 7 minutes ago, Turkish said: looks like the police were wrong as i said. Starmer says UK faces new threat and ‘terrorism has changed’ after Axel Rudakubana Southport killings – latest | The Independent Rudakubana, of Banks, Lancashire, pleaded guilty to 16 offences, including three counts of murder and 10 counts of attempted murder at Liverpool Crown Court on Monday, as well as producing the deadly poison ricin and possessing an al-Qaeda training manual. The police were not wrong, they just said the motive was unclear that's why they didn't treat it as terrorism. Having an al-Qaeda training manual doesn't prove motive. 2
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, badgerx16 said: If I got hold of a copy of Mein Kampf would that make me a Nazi ? Im sure quite a lot of people would say it would. In fact that's often been used as evidence to prove someone is so a really bad example. What reason would any one have for having an al-Qaeda training manual?
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 (edited) 2 minutes ago, aintforever said: The police were not wrong, they just said the motive was unclear that's why they didn't treat it as terrorism. Having an al-Qaeda training manual doesn't prove motive. why would he have one? He was also making ricin and looking into historical terror attacks? To cion one of your favourite phrases "its not rocket science" to join the dots. Edited January 21 by Turkish
benjii Posted January 21 Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: If I got hold of a copy of Mein Kampf would that make me a Nazi ? If you do Nazi salutes at a rally, does that make you a Nazi? It's very confusing nowadays. 1
aintforever Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, Turkish said: why would he have one? He was also making ricin and looking into historical terror attacks? To kill people obviously. Nutters kill people all the time, that doesn't necessarily make them all terrorists.
badgerx16 Posted January 21 Posted January 21 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: Im sure quite a lot of people would say it would. In fact that's often been used as evidence to prove someone is so a really bad example. There are copies of Mein Kampf in the British Library and the Library of Congress.
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: There are copies of Mein Kampf in the British Library and the Library of Congress. You weren't talking about national institutions you were talking about individuals Heres an example, having a copy of Mein Kampf made him a far right terrorist apparently. Maidenhead far-right sympathiser guilty of terrorism offences - BBC News
aintforever Posted January 21 Posted January 21 1 minute ago, Turkish said: You weren't talking about national institutions you were talking about individuals Heres an example, having a copy of Mein Kampf made him a far right terrorist apparently. Maidenhead far-right sympathiser guilty of terrorism offences - BBC News He wasn't arrested for just owning Mein Kampf. "The manuals had instructions on how to make explosive devices, and how to kill quickly and efficiently with a blade."
badgerx16 Posted January 21 Posted January 21 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: You weren't talking about national institutions you were talking about individuals Heres an example, having a copy of Mein Kampf made him a far right terrorist apparently. Maidenhead far-right sympathiser guilty of terrorism offences - BBC News I think he was "far right" without needing the book.
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, aintforever said: To kill people obviously. Nutters kill people all the time, that doesn't necessarily make them all terrorists. So he had a training manual from a terrorist organisation, he was making deadly toxic substances, he was researching previous terror attacks, he then went and killed 3 young girls, The PM has now come out and spoken about state failings, how terrorism has changed and orders an enquiry, but he's not a terrorist? Okay hun. You carry on sucking up what you're told to think.
Turkish Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, aintforever said: He wasn't arrested for just owning Mein Kampf. "The manuals had instructions on how to make explosive devices, and how to kill quickly and efficiently with a blade." Bit like your man who was making toxic substances and had a terrorist organisations training manual then Never were the sharpest were you 2
egg Posted January 21 Posted January 21 7 minutes ago, aintforever said: To kill people obviously. Nutters kill people all the time, that doesn't necessarily make them all terrorists. This guy was both imo. 1
aintforever Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, egg said: This guy was both imo. He may well have been. I'm just trying to explain to shit-for-brains why the police didn't treat it at terrorism at the time. 2
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