Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[Lord Duckhunter]

I’d prefer to have her in a tent in Syria than on the streets over here.

 

That’s a different point entirely. I’m not suggesting we go over and rescue her or help her come home. What I’m saying is IF she turns up at a British embassy or is deported by the Syrians, or even turns up at Gatwick one day, she should be treated exactly the same as you and I would be.

 

 

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[aintforever]

We have only done it when they have duel citizenship. You can not make someone stateless. They couldn’t stop me coming home, or strip me of my citizenship because I’m British, my parents were British and their parents were British. If you think it’s ok to strip her of her citizenship based on the fact her parents are Bangladeshi then there’s a word for people like you. Mind you, Nick Griffin would agree with you.

 

 

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We can’t leave her stateless anyway you penis, the decision will get overturned in the courts if that’s the case (which it probably will).

 

Nick Griffin! You tool.

[whelk]

Should she have said she misses pasties and Dr Who?

[Lord Duckhunter]

We can’t leave her stateless anyway you penis, the decision will get overturned in the courts if that’s the case (which it probably will).

 

Nick Griffin! You tool.

 

Yep Nick Griffin. He believes that somebody born in Britain of foreign parents is less British than someone born of British parents, and should therefore be treated differently . I think the analogy he uses is that if a pig was born in a stable it still wouldn’t be a horse. You seem to support the home sec treating her differently than he would me, based on the fact she has Bangladeshi parents. She’s no more a Bangladeshi citizen than you, or me, or Nick Griffin.

 

 

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[aintforever]

Yep Nick Griffin. He believes that somebody born in Britain of foreign parents is less British than someone born of British parents, and should therefore be treated differently . I think the analogy he uses is that if a pig was born in a stable it still wouldn’t be a horse. You seem to support the home sec treating her differently than he would me, based on the fact she has Bangladeshi parents. She’s no more a Bangladeshi citizen than you, or me, or Nick Griffin.

 

 

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Do you have a legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship? I don’t, and I doubt Nick Griffin does.

[buctootim]

Do you have a legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship? I don’t, and I doubt Nick Griffin does.

 

You have a legal right to move to anyone of 27 other countries and obtain citizenship. Is it okay to strip you of your British citizenship?

[Lighthouse]

Oh god no. You can’t impose conditions on your Britishness, and the home sec deciding if you’ve adhered to those conditions. No ****ing thank you. Give it 20 years and they’ll be taking your British citizenship away for opposing gay marriage and other thought crimes. She’s British, just as Ian Huntley, Rose West and Jon Venables are British.

 

Of course she has rejected 'British values' and is outside the mainstream, just as IRA terrorists did. That doesn't change the fact that you can't / shouldn't strip someone of their birth citizenship because they're a criminal or ideological loon. Acquired citizenship is different - a privilege which can and should be revoked if necessary.

 

Legally, yes she is British and I have a feeling we will end up being landed with her again one day. Morally though, I'd say the fact that she has walked out on Britain to go and fight for a political/religious terrorist group in another country is on loose footing. It's not that her parents were born abroad. It's the combined facts that they were born abroad AND she left when she was 15 to fight in a foreign holy war, which makes it dubious for me. She was just born here, that's all. She's British to the same extent that Ian Hislop is Chinese.

 

I would even differentiate her from the likes the likes of Michael Adebolajo. In my personal opinion it's that critical interference in matters of another state that sets her apart.

Edited 22 February, 2019 by Lighthouse

[Verbal]

Legally, yes she is British and I have a feeling we will end up being landed with her again one day. Morally though, I'd say the fact that she has walked out on Britain to go and fight for a political/religious terrorist group in another country is on loose footing. It's not that her parents were born abroad. It's the combined facts that they were born abroad AND she left when she was 15 to fight in a foreign holy war, which makes it dubious for me. She was just born here, that's all. She's British to the same extent that Ian Hislop is Chinese.

 

I would even differentiate her from the likes the likes of Michael Adebolajo. In my personal opinion it's that critical interference in matters of another state that sets her apart.

 

This is the most obviously racist post I've seen on this thread.

 

First you try to defend it by saying 'it's not because her parents were born abroad'. Then you immediately say that that is indeed a factor in saying she's not really British! Just think about that for a moment. You could apply that logic, such as it is, to an awful lot of Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian and others - that their parents were born abroad and their children were born here, so they also must be 'not really British'.

 

Or look at it this way: if you'd encountered Shamima Begum at the age of seven, would you say she's 'not really British'? Maybe if you're a member of BNP, but otherwise, I doubt it.

 

So the ONLY thing that's relevant here, unless you really are coming out as a racist, is that she has committed serious crimes. Your logic therefore means that rather than prosecute her, you'd rather render her stateless.

 

So - to the people of Raqqa, among whom she lived as a lord and master, for a terror group whose brutalism that was taken out almost exclusively on ordinary Syrians, what do you say to them? How do you justify making her their responsibility and not ours? And remember the present circumstances: Raqqa lies in ruins and may take decades to rebuild, if at all. It also has no justice system, no civil law enforcement, and most of its residents are still deeply fearful of the one state actor out there - Assad. That on top of all of that, they should be forced to accept the cost and trouble of accommodating an ISIS cadre?

 

Really?

[Window Cleaner]

You have a legal right to move to anyone of 27 other countries and obtain citizenship. Is it okay to strip you of your British citizenship?

 

 

Some countries do not allow dual citizenship, some that you might think as pretty progressive places..like the Netherlands. If you take up Dutch citizenship then you must renounce any others that you may have. The woman spoke of trying to get Dutch citizenship I believe, that would mean her giving up on all others. There's a list on the Home Office website of countries that allow dual citizenship, have a look, you'll be surprised at the number that don't. Spain only allows DC with some Latin American countries and this is causing a bit of a todoo with a few expats who've decide to apply for Spanish citizenship because of Brexit, no more UK citizenship for them.

[Lord Duckhunter]

She was just born here, that's all. She's British to the same extent that Ian Hislop is Chinese.

 

 

Another disciple of Nick Griffin. This is exactly the same language The BNP use. You should be ashamed you wrote that.

 

 

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[Window Cleaner]

Another disciple of Nick Griffin. This is exactly the same language The BNP use. You should be ashamed you wrote that.

 

 

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But one does not automatically acquire British Citizenship by being born in the UK. Most cases lead to British Citizenship but some don't. It's in the Home Office regulations. Look it up if you're interested.

[shurlock]

Jihadi Jack wants to come back

[whelk]

Jihadi Jack wants to come back

 

Only for pasties

[Lighthouse]

This is the most obviously racist post I've seen on this thread.

 

First you try to defend it by saying 'it's not because her parents were born abroad'. Then you immediately say that that is indeed a factor in saying she's not really British! Just think about that for a moment. You could apply that logic, such as it is, to an awful lot of Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian and others - that their parents were born abroad and their children were born here, so they also must be 'not really British'.

 

Jeez, can you really not see the difference between Begum and the BIB? How is it in any way racist, unless of course fanatical, medieval murderers have suddenly become a race? If Buddhists, Druids or Jedi were doing the same thing, I'd have exactly the same opinion. I have no problem with migration from any of those countries or the fact that their children and grandchildren are British. I just don't see being born here as the end of all discussion on whether or not a person is British. Mo Farrah for example, I would regard him as British, despite being born in Somalia.

 

She was born to Ethiopian parents and followed a strict Islamist lifestyle based on ultra conservative Saudi teachings, and left when she was 15 to impose these beliefs on Iraqis and Syrians. Other than being born here what actually makes her British?

 

Put it this way, supposing a group of people from the Westboro Baptist Church moved to Tokyo (no particular reason, that's besides the point). Two of them have a daughter, bring her up in line with their beliefs and aged 15 she hears about an upcoming pride march in Brighton. She flies to Britain and starts parading through Brighton with a sign saying, "God hates fags, burn in hell!" Would you being saying, "those bloody Japanese, I wish they'd sort their citizens out."?

 

Where she should go is more of a problem. I don't think she is "their responsibility", I think it is the Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish right to impose justice for crimes which have been committed against them. In much the same way as Saddam was tried, convicted and executed by an Iraqi court. Obviously they will need a lot of help and if that means foreign aid and UN peacekeepers then so be it. I never said it should be the Syrians who should incur the cost and trouble, that's not what I believe.

 

I don't personally believe she belongs anywhere but that's not really a solution. I don't think Syria, Iraq, Britain, Bangladesh or Ethiopia should have to put up with her but obviously she has to go somewhere and there is no right answer.

 

If anyone deserves to put up with her it is, IMO, the Saudis as she was following the mad Wahhabism they have spent centuries exporting. I realise this is akin to saying Philip Green doesn't deserve to be rich and there is absolutely no legal basis for it and it will never happen but if she is anyone's 'fault' it's theirs.

[hypochondriac]

Good post.

[doddisalegend]

Only for pasties

 

which he thinks come from Scotland...

[Lord Duckhunter]

But one does not automatically acquire British Citizenship by being born in the UK. Most cases lead to British Citizenship but some don't. It's in the Home Office regulations. Look it up if you're interested.

 

So if someone is born in the UK, is 15 and has never left the UK, they’re not necessarily a British citizen. Where are they a citizen of them?

 

My friends are both Liverpudlians. The past 30 years they’ve lived in LA & Ft lauderdale and nowhere else. They have 2 children 26 & 19. Both children haven’t applied for duel uk/us nationality because they dont want to complicate their parents immigration case. Are you telling me the kids aren’t automatically American citizens, because I’m telling you for a fact that they are. And if you are right, maybe my friends should sack the immigration attorney who is currently trying to legalise their status via the children’s citizenship. Where are they citizens of then?

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Jeez, can you really not see the difference between Begum and the BIB? How is it in any way racist, unless of course fanatical, medieval murderers have suddenly become a race? If Buddhists, Druids or Jedi were doing the same thing, I'd have exactly the same opinion. I have no problem with migration from any of those countries or the fact that their children and grandchildren are British. I just don't see being born here as the end of all discussion on whether or not a person is British. Mo Farrah for example, I would regard him as British, despite being born in Somalia.

 

She was born to Ethiopian parents and followed a strict Islamist lifestyle based on ultra conservative Saudi teachings, and left when she was 15 to impose these beliefs on Iraqis and Syrians. Other than being born here what actually makes her British?

 

.

 

Can’t you see how incredibly dangerous it is to impose terms on our citizenship. You’re saying that because her family followed a specific lifestyle, she’s not British. That’s horrific. Who decides whether a lifestyle is compatible with being British, politicians. God help us, when that happens.

 

 

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[Window Cleaner]

So if someone is born in the UK, is 15 and has never left the UK, they’re not necessarily a British citizen. Where are they a citizen of them?

 

My friends are both Liverpudlians. The past 30 years they’ve lived in LA & Ft lauderdale and nowhere else. They have 2 children 26 & 19. Both children haven’t applied for duel uk/us nationality because they dont want to complicate their parents immigration case. Are you telling me the kids aren’t automatically American citizens, because I’m telling you for a fact that they are. And if you are right, maybe my friends should sack the immigration attorney who is currently trying to legalise their status via the children’s citizenship. Where are they citizens of then?

 

 

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Look it up on the governmen'ts nationality website. It's a case by case scenario dependant on the parent's status at the time of

the child's birth. I don't make the rules I just know about them because obtaining British Nationality for my own daughter led me to read all the whys, wherefores and whereupons. For instance she's British because I am and my parents were, her children may well not be because those born outside the UK to at least one British parent do not always pass the nationality on. Even then you have to dob the government some serious swans just to get a bit of paper to prove your nationality. Cost me 250£ for my girl and there's not even a shadow of a doubt about her nationality. Those applying for some other route can face a charge of over £1000 and have to pass an assimilation test. It's not a case of I was born here, I'm British.Don't confuse the UK and the US, the rules aren't the same. Only British bloodline confers automatic British nationality and even then the parents have to married. in some cases.

Edited 23 February, 2019 by Window Cleaner

[buctootim]

Can’t you see how incredibly dangerous it is to impose terms on our citizenship. You’re saying that because her family followed a specific lifestyle, she’s not British. That’s horrific. Who decides whether a lifestyle is compatible with being British, politicians. God help us, when that happens.

 

Exactly this. Once you start down that slippery slope it can easily become impossible to stop. Do you start deporting people for repulsive criminal acts? How about opposing the policies of an elected government which some think is treasonous?

 

Taking back a naive and slightly dim 19 year old with a new born baby is a small price to pay for not eroding the fundamental rights that protect the rest of us and have been hard won over hundreds of years.

[Window Cleaner]

Exactly this. Once you start down that slippery slope it can easily become impossible to stop. Do you start deporting people for repulsive criminal acts? How about opposing the policies of an elected government which some think is treasonous?

 

Taking back a naive and slightly dim 19 year old with a new born baby is a small price to pay for not eroding the fundamental rights that protect the rest of us and have been hard won over hundreds of years.

 

In fact in the UK in 2017 no less than 104 people were stripped of the Brtish Nationality and most of them were deported.

What for, I couldn't say.

[Lighthouse]

A lorry coming through Calais gets checked in Dover and customs discover half a dozen migrants in the back. One is a heavily pregnant lady and the stress of the journey sends her into labour. A paramedic is called and she gives birth in the back of said lorry, an hour after arriving in the UK.

 

The baby is a British citizen and has the right to live here the rest of its life?

[Window Cleaner]

A lorry coming through Calais gets checked in Dover and customs discover half a dozen migrants in the back. One is a heavily pregnant lady and the stress of the journey sends her into labour. A paramedic is called and she gives birth in the back of said lorry, an hour after arriving in the UK.

 

The baby is a British citizen and he the right to live here the rest of its life?

 

Justly no, the parents were not legal residents, citizens or any other acceptable status. The child is of the nationality of the parents. It's not like France or the US where it's the right of "sol" that counts. Automatic British Citizenship is only established by blood line. After that if the parents have legal residence status then the child has a claim. If they don't he hasn't. But in the case in hand it is of no import whether the young person has british citizenship. We know she had because it's been stripped from her for what can be called un-British conduct, The classic case here is that of Lord Haw Haw or William Joyce. He was an Irish/American citizen engaged in propaganda broadcasts for the Nazis during WW2. When being tried afterwards he claimed it wasn't treason because he wasn't British. As he'd obtained a British passport by forgery or deception he owed loyalty to the king and was hanged for treason. You see so this young person owes loyalty to the Queen and by joining IS has committed treason. Won't be hanged though. Mr Javid is setting up a new treason law for these people so perhaps they won't want to come back after all.

Edited 23 February, 2019 by Window Cleaner

[whelk]

A lorry coming through Calais gets checked in Dover and customs discover half a dozen migrants in the back. One is a heavily pregnant lady and the stress of the journey sends her into labour. A paramedic is called and she gives birth in the back of said lorry, an hour after arriving in the UK.

 

The baby is a British citizen and has the right to live here the rest of its life?

 

You seem to be struggling

[Lighthouse]

You seem to be struggling

 

Not at all. Do you have an actual answer to my hypothesis?

 

I assume from the tone of your post you think it’s a ridiculous suggestion. So if you also think Begum is obviously a British citizen, where are you drawing the line?

[Window Cleaner]

Not at all. Do you have an actual answer to my hypothesis?

 

I assume from the tone of your post you think it’s a ridiculous suggestion. So if you also think Begum is obviously a British citizen, where are you drawing the line?

 

I explained your hypothesis. It's all standard reglementary stuff available on the government website. Begum was a British Citizen otherwise you can't strip her of it. At 15 when she left I doubt if she had any real status at all anyway.

I don't know about the Uk nowadays but here in France the kids have to do a couple of days "Preparation de la Defense" Just involves hanging around in barracks or government offices, having a nice lunch or two and watching some videos. At the end they get a sort of certificate and without this you can't enroll for GCEs or the University or a driving licence. Going to bumped up to a month on and off soon and those who refuse will be in sort of no mans land. They'll be citizens but with few basic rights..

Edited 23 February, 2019 by Window Cleaner

[whelk]

Not at all. Do you have an actual answer to my hypothesis?

 

I assume from the tone of your post you think it’s a ridiculous suggestion. So if you also think Begum is obviously a British citizen, where are you drawing the line?

 

The line is there. Lord knows I rarely agree with LD but he states it.

Trying to use hypothetical situations to show situation is not clear isn’t helping.

I wouldn’t mind her getting a bullet in the head but that isn’t the point.

[Verbal]

As you've decided to double down on the racist content of your previous post, I'll have one more go at trying to show how your views remain both racist and factually wrong.

 

I have no problem with migration from any of those countries or the fact that their children and grandchildren are British. I just don't see being born here as the end of all discussion on whether or not a person is British. Mo Farrah for example, I would regard him as British, despite being born in Somalia.

 

'Being born here' is NOT the end of the discussion. There are legal definitions of citizenship which you can look up. You really need to, because this crap does you no favours. It sounds from your inclusion of Farrah that you approve of his being British simply because he 'fits in' in a way you find acceptable. This is a classic racist trope.

 

She was born to Ethiopian parents and followed a strict Islamist lifestyle based on ultra conservative Saudi teachings, and left when she was 15 to impose these beliefs on Iraqis and Syrians. Other than being born here what actually makes her British?

 

As above, other than being born here, she was born to naturalised British citizens. The lifestyle in which she was brought up is irrelevant. The fact that she left for Syria when she was 15 is irrelevant. She did not go to Iraq. What on earth are you on about?

 

Put it this way, supposing a group of people from the Westboro Baptist Church moved to Tokyo (no particular reason, that's besides the point). Two of them have a daughter, bring her up in line with their beliefs and aged 15 she hears about an upcoming pride march in Brighton. She flies to Britain and starts parading through Brighton with a sign saying, "God hates fags, burn in hell!" Would you being saying, "those bloody Japanese, I wish they'd sort their citizens out."

 

1. Do you really need to be told why this is a false analogy? She is a British citizen.

 

2. You are making the offensive suggestion that someone whose views you disagree with deserves to lose their citizenship rights. Like Mo Farrah, she has to 'act British'. The person who's not 'acting British' here is you. One of this country's greatest values is freedom of speech and thought. When Constantine was declared Roman emperor in York in AD306, he had to accept English that civil liberties had to be respected. Come up to AD2019 and Lighthouse thinks otherwise - offensive thought and speech should be a reason for withdrawal of citizenship.

 

Where she should go is more of a problem. I don't think she is "their responsibility", I think it is the Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish right to impose justice for crimes which have been committed against them. In much the same way as Saddam was tried, convicted and executed by an Iraqi court. Obviously they will need a lot of help and if that means foreign aid and UN peacekeepers then so be it. I never said it should be the Syrians who should incur the cost and trouble, that's not what I believe.

 

Again, before posting, please do the minimum to understand what you're talking about. She has never been in Iraq. There is no Kurdish legal system because Raqqa is not in Kurdish homeland territory. The only Syrian legal system is Assad's, which (a) has no remit in large areas in northern Syria controlled by the SDF, and (b) Assadists would simply put in bullet in her head, or otherwise ensure she dies from torture. But what trumps all of this is that she is a British citizen who has committed crimes under British law.

 

I don't personally believe she belongs anywhere but that's not really a solution. I don't think Syria, Iraq, Britain, Bangladesh or Ethiopia should have to put up with her but obviously she has to go somewhere and there is no right answer.

 

Your 'personal beliefs' about her legal status are irrelevant. There is a right answer, and ultimately international law will determine that.

 

If anyone deserves to put up with her it is, IMO, the Saudis as she was following the mad Wahhabism they have spent centuries exporting. I realise this is akin to saying Philip Green doesn't deserve to be rich and there is absolutely no legal basis for it and it will never happen but if she is anyone's 'fault' it's theirs.

 

Again, we're back to racist caricatures and your ignorance. If you're really going to dive into this rabbit hole, you're in real trouble with the terms and conditions of this forum. So again: you cannot decide that her beliefs are in some way consistent with those that characterise another country as a reason to deny them citizenship - regardless of how repellent those beliefs may be. Besides, when and where has she actually espoused Wahhabi ideas? I suspect you've just made this all up to conform to the racist caricature you've created of her.

 

A lorry coming through Calais gets checked in Dover and customs discover half a dozen migrants in the back. One is a heavily pregnant lady and the stress of the journey sends her into labour. A paramedic is called and she gives birth in the back of said lorry, an hour after arriving in the UK.

 

The baby is a British citizen and has the right to live here the rest of its life?

 

Christ. No. If the parents are not British nationals or naturalised British then there is no birthright citizenship. America has it. We don't. You could just google this rather than make yourself look foolish (and worse).

[Lighthouse]

Verbal - there’s just too many strawmen there for me to bother with. Just saying ‘you don’t know anything you’re racist’ over and over doesn’t make you right.

 

I don’t think you have to ‘act British’

I never said you should lose your citizenship if you disagree with my opinion

I’ve no idea how not having an issue with people like Farrah being British makes me ‘more racist’z

I’m not racist, I don’t have any problem with peoples religions or nationality. Just those who join murderous death cults.

You say British law trumps Assad’s law. If I took a kilo of heroin into UAE, I wouldn’t expect 10 years in jail because I’m British. I’d get shot because I committed the crime in UAE.

 

I’m simply trying to find out where people draw the line on citizenship. Would you agree that the woman in the Westboro Baptist church example is Japanese?

Edited 23 February, 2019 by Lighthouse

[sadoldgit]

Can’t you see how incredibly dangerous it is to impose terms on our citizenship. You’re saying that because her family followed a specific lifestyle, she’s not British. That’s horrific. Who decides whether a lifestyle is compatible with being British, politicians. God help us, when that happens.

 

 

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Spot on Duckie. There are plenty of people who I wish were not British citizens. One is back in the news again today, Tommy Robinson Yaxley-Lennon. We don’t get to chose just because we don’t like them or what they have done but it is open season for racists and Islamophobes whenever something like this comes up. I don’t see the usual suspects queuing up to have the plentiful numbers of “white” “Christian” scumbags stripped of their nationality. She is a Bristish national. She should be allowed back into her country and should face the legal process if it is considered that she has broken any laws, just like any other British citizen.

[buctootim]

In fact in the UK in 2017 no less than 104 people were stripped of the Brtish Nationality and most of them were deported.

What for, I couldn't say.

 

I don't know either - but I'd strongly suspect the vast majority were naturalised - they gained citizenship as a privilege, not as a right.

[whelk]

Spot on Duckie. There are plenty of people who I wish were not British citizens. One is back in the news again today, Tommy Robinson Yaxley-Lennon. We don’t get to chose just because we don’t like them or what they have done but it is open season for racists and Islamophobes whenever something like this comes up. I don’t see the usual suspects queuing up to have the plentiful numbers of “white” “Christian” scumbags stripped of their nationality. She is a Bristish national. She should be allowed back into her country and should face the legal process if it is considered that she has broken any laws, just like any other British citizen.

 

One thing to agree but only you could start using some fatuous comparison to Tommy Robinson and start banging on about Christians.

[aintforever]

You have a legal right to move to anyone of 27 other countries and obtain citizenship. Is it okay to strip you of your British citizenship?

 

If I moved abroad to join a death cult that beheads innocent civilians and fights a war against UK forces then I wouldn’t say it was unfair.

 

It doesn’t matter to me one bit wether she’s as English as fish n chips, I just want the **** punished as much as possible. If there is some legal loop hole that means her Bangladeshi heritage makes stripping her of her citizenship doesn’t break international law then fantastic.

 

The only thing that doesn’t sit right is the fact that we are dumping our problem onto someone else, so if Bangladesh doesn’t want her and the Syrians would rather we dealt with her then I think it’s fair we have her back because she obviously is British. You would like to think the Syrians would prefer to see her face justice though instead of getting a nice council house and free child care back in London.

Edited 23 February, 2019 by aintforever

[Batman]

Does she count as a combatant?

Does that change anything?

 

Would certain parts of society be calling for sympathy for Jihadi John if he was still around and on sky news bleating his heart out?

[van Hanegem]

Some countries do not allow dual citizenship, some that you might think as pretty progressive places..like the Netherlands. If you take up Dutch citizenship then you must renounce any others that you may have. The woman spoke of trying to get Dutch citizenship I believe, that would mean her giving up on all others. There's a list on the Home Office website of countries that allow dual citizenship, have a look, you'll be surprised at the number that don't. Spain only allows DC with some Latin American countries and this is causing a bit of a todoo with a few expats who've decide to apply for Spanish citizenship because of Brexit, no more UK citizenship for them.

 

Dual nationality is alas allowed in the Netherlands, even some of our members of parliament do have a dual nationality, usually they have a Turkish or Moroccan background. But I reckon this woman doesn’t comply with the conditions and would indeed have to give up her British nationality. The Dutch government is not likely to allow her coming here as there are dozens of “Dutch” women in Syria and Iraq who want to come back but the Dutch authorities won’t go there to pick them up, they have to get to an embassy in another country which is very difficult of course. Like our PM Mark Rutte said: let them die there...

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Dutch government is not likely to allow her coming here as there are dozens of “Dutch” women in Syria and Iraq who want to come back but the Dutch authorities won’t go there to pick them up, they have to get to an embassy in another country which is very difficult of course. Like our PM Mark Rutte said: let them die there...

 

This is exactly the right approach. The problem we have is if the Government said “yes she’s British and if she turns up at an embassy will be treated as such”, some soft arsed leftie organisation would facilitate her getting there. Linekar or that daft bird Lily Allen would probably offer her a bed and some Lawyer will take her case up. My approach to her being stuck in Syria would be, “oh dear, how sad , never mind”.

 

 

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Edited 24 February, 2019 by Lord Duckhunter

[doddisalegend]

Does she count as a combatant?

Does that change anything?

 

Would certain parts of society be calling for sympathy for Jihadi John if he was still around and on sky news bleating his heart out?

I haven't seen anyone here with sympathy for her or suggesting she comes back to Britian and just picks up where she left off with a nice council house and some benefits.

 

The issue is whose responsibility is it to deal with her, as she is British, that should be us. Dealing with her or any other Brit who joined IS should be our responsibility imo.

 

Personally I'd set up a nice Penal colony on South Georgia and dump them all there to rot.

 

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[doddisalegend]

2. You are making the offensive suggestion that someone whose views you disagree with deserves to lose their citizenship rights. Like Mo Farrah, she has to 'act British'. The person who's not 'acting British' here is you. One of this country's greatest values is freedom of speech and thought. When Constantine was declared Roman emperor in York in AD306, he had to accept English that civil liberties had to be respected. Come up to AD2019 and Lighthouse thinks otherwise - offensive thought and speech should be a reason for withdrawal of citizenship.

 

That would have been a neat trick considering the Anglo-saxon forbearers of the English didn't appear in Britian for another 150 odd years and didn't start consider themselves English until the late 800s..

[sadoldgit]

This is exactly the right approach. The problem we have is if the Government said “yes she’s British and if she turns up at an embassy will be treated as such”, some soft arsed leftie organisation would facilitate her getting there. Linekar or that daft bird Lily Allen would probably offer her a bed and some Lawyer will take her case up. My approach to her being stuck in Syria would be, “oh dear, how sad , never mind”.

 

“Daft bird?” Oh dear.

 

As for her being a “combatant,” it seems highly unlikely but if that is the case and she is found guilty of such through the proper legal process here, then what is wrong with that? Wouldn’t we expect the same for Jihadi John if he had returned? I have no sympathy for what she has done but feel for her family, the children she has lost and the child she has recently had. But not one of us knows about what happened to these people as children to make the decision to leave their homes and family and throw in their lot with ISIS. Many vulnerable people are groomed at a young age for all sorts of purposes. Just because a terrorist faction of a religion is involved doesn’t make these people any more evil than anyone else whose head’s have been messed with. What would be more helpful, instead of the usual reactionary knee jerk reactions, is to get these people back and find out what made them do what they have done in the first place. Anything we can do to stop young people becoming radicalised in the first place has to be worthwhile. If we say we have the moral high ground here then we have to prove it. Turning your back on the problem and letting people rot in a hell hole makes us no better than the people we say that we are morally superior to.

[van Hanegem]

This is exactly the right approach. The problem we have is if the Government said “yes she’s British and if she turns up at an embassy will be treated as such”, some soft arsed leftie organisation would facilitate her getting there. Linekar or that daft bird Lily Allen would probably offer her a bed and some Lawyer will take her case up. My approach to her being stuck in Syria would be, “oh dear, how sad , never mind”.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Maybe, but as usual Rutte was just talking tough to keep his voters satisfied. There are enough politicians and NGO's in the Netherlands who are putting him under pressure, saying it's inhumane to let those women and children rot in the former caliphate. I reckon it won't take too long before the Netherlands are repatriating them. A lot of western people are still suffering from the 'christian guilt complex' or believe that everything within a society is repairable, a concept you won't find easily in the islamic world if not at all.

[Verbal]

Maybe, but as usual Rutte was just talking tough to keep his voters satisfied. There are enough politicians and NGO's in the Netherlands who are putting him under pressure, saying it's inhumane to let those women and children rot in the former caliphate. I reckon it won't take too long before the Netherlands are repatriating them. A lot of western people are still suffering from the 'christian guilt complex' or believe that everything within a society is repairable, a concept you won't find easily in the islamic world if not at all.

 

I see you're a full member, so can you edit this into something that's intelligible?

 

What's a 'Christian guilt complex'? And who exactly has this?

 

Who exactly believes that 'everything within a society is reparable'? And what does that even mean?

 

And this 'concept' that does not exist in 'the Islamic world'? What does that mean? And in which parts of the 'Islamic world' have you witnessed this?

 

Alternatively, I suggest you are just spouting by rote the hate-filled gibberish of Wilders (despite your denials) - because these are meaningless slogans designed only to whip the terminally gullible into repeating them ad nauseum.

[Lighthouse]

I believe the ‘Christian guilt complex’ he refers to could be aimed at people who spout gibberish like, “we can’t really complain about terrorist attacks after what we did in the crusades,” or, “ISIS is our fault really because we invaded Iraq.”

 

I wouldn’t say it’s a Christian thing so much as a bazaar desire some people have to say things are, “our fault.”

Edited 24 February, 2019 by Lighthouse
Terrorist attics?

[benjii]

Verbal - there’s just too many strawmen there for me to bother with. Just saying ‘you don’t know anything you’re racist’ over and over doesn’t make you right.

 

I don’t think you have to ‘act British’

I never said you should lose your citizenship if you disagree with my opinion

I’ve no idea how not having an issue with people like Farrah being British makes me ‘more racist’z

I’m not racist, I don’t have any problem with peoples religions or nationality. Just those who join murderous death cults.

You say British law trumps Assad’s law. If I took a kilo of heroin into UAE, I wouldn’t expect 10 years in jail because I’m British. I’d get shot because I committed the crime in UAE.

 

I’m simply trying to find out where people draw the line on citizenship. Would you agree that the woman in the Westboro Baptist church example is Japanese?

 

If she was white, her parents were "indigenous" British and she had converted to Islam then gone off to ISIS would you be arguing she's not British?

 

No, you wouldn't. Ergo, you're racist.

 

HTH.

[Lighthouse]

If she was white, her parents were "indigenous" British and she had converted to Islam then gone off to ISIS would you be arguing she's not British?

 

No, you wouldn't. Ergo, you're racist.

 

HTH.

 

Okay, I'll help you with this using a quick Google:

 

"Define: Racism

 

- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

 

Arguing about whether or not someone's British citizenship is valid based on their personal circumstances, whilst simultaneously accepting 99% of her religion's right to be British does not make a person racist.

 

To answer your question; No I wouldn't because if she has clearly come from British ancestry it's a different situation. That would make her a traitor and no less of a scumbag and if we could cancel her citizenship on the basis that she has pledged allegiance to another state then I personally would.

 

Begum's parents are foreign, she has clearly chosen to follow grotesque bastardisation of their religion instead of integrating into British society. She joined a death cult based on an extreme interpretation of an ultra conservative Saudi branch of Islam, which willingly supports the mass murder of any British citizen. That to me trumps the mere fact that she happened to be born here.

[sadoldgit]

I believe the ‘Christian guilt complex’ he refers to could be aimed at people who spout gibberish like, “we can’t really complain about terrorist attacks after what we did in the crusades,” or, “ISIS is our fault really because we invaded Iraq.”

 

I wouldn’t say it’s a Christian thing so much as a bazaar desire some people have to say things are, “our fault.”

 

They don’t have to be “our fault” exactly but things don’t happen in a vacuum do they. There are cause and effects and, as we know, these issues are deep rooted. It also doesn’t have necessarily to do with guilt. What about responsibility or a basic sense of humanity? This young women was born and raised here. Her family are here. She is a product of her upbringing here. Whatever drove her to leave here and start another life in Syria, it come from whatever influences she received whilst living here. If she returns, she will have to face the consequences of the society in which she grew up and that is exactly the way it should be. Not passing the buck has nothing to do with Christian guilt and everything to do with taking responsibility for your own citizens.

[Batman]

They don’t have to be “our fault” exactly but things don’t happen in a vacuum do they. There are cause and effects and, as we know, these issues are deep rooted. It also doesn’t have necessarily to do with guilt. What about responsibility or a basic sense of humanity? This young women was born and raised here. Her family are here. She is a product of her upbringing here. Whatever drove her to leave here and start another life in Syria, it come from whatever influences she received whilst living here. If she returns, she will have to face the consequences of the society in which she grew up and that is exactly the way it should be. Not passing the buck has nothing to do with Christian guilt and everything to do with taking responsibility for your own citizens.

 

personally, I blame her parents. As with any teenage scallywag

[benjii]

Okay, I'll help you with this using a quick Google:

 

"Define: Racism

 

- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

 

Arguing about whether or not someone's British citizenship is valid based on their personal circumstances, whilst simultaneously accepting 99% of her religion's right to be British does not make a person racist.

 

To answer your question; No I wouldn't because if she has clearly come from British ancestry it's a different situation. That would make her a traitor and no less of a scumbag and if we could cancel her citizenship on the basis that she has pledged allegiance to another state then I personally would.

 

Begum's parents are foreign, she has clearly chosen to follow grotesque bastardisation of their religion instead of integrating into British society. She joined a death cult based on an extreme interpretation of an ultra conservative Saudi branch of Islam, which willingly supports the mass murder of any British citizen. That to me trumps the mere fact that she happened to be born here.

 

First off, that's a **** definition of racism.

 

The fact is, you want to treat her differently to other equally or more heinous criminals because she is a bit different due to her ethnic/national background.

 

What if Ian Huntley's parents were Irish? Renounce his British citizenship?

[Lighthouse]

First off, that's a **** definition of racism.

 

The fact is, you want to treat her differently to other equally or more heinous criminals because she is a bit different due to her ethnic/national background.

 

What if Ian Huntley's parents were Irish? Renounce his British citizenship?

 

That's the one Google came up with and it seems about right to me. If you have a different version then fine but I can't be arsed arguing over semantics.

 

I'm not treating her differently because of her ethnic/national background but it is part of a situation specific to her.

Do I think Muslims aren't British? No

Do I think people who's parents are from foreign countries aren't British? Also No

Do I think being born here means you have the right to claim British citizenship for life, regardless of anything? No

Does abandoning Britain to fight in a foreign holy war, based on extremely warped interpretations of her foreign parents religion make her less British? Yes

 

To answer your last question - No because murdering a couple of school girls in Britain isn't some foreign crusade. If however Ian Huntley's parents were Irish and he went to America aged 15 to wage a campaign for mass murder against the Protestant heathens, based upon the extremist preachings of Father O'Doyle in County Kerry, I would say he wasn't really British, just like Begum.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

That's the one Google came up with and it seems about right to me. If you have a different version then fine but I can't be arsed arguing over semantics.

 

I'm not treating her differently because of her ethnic/national background but it is part of a situation specific to her.

Do I think Muslims aren't British? No

Do I think people who's parents are from foreign countries aren't British? Also No

Do I think being born here means you have the right to claim British citizenship for life, regardless of anything? No

Does abandoning Britain to fight in a foreign holy war, based on extremely warped interpretations of her foreign parents religion make her less British? Yes

 

To answer your last question - No because murdering a couple of school girls in Britain isn't some foreign crusade. If however Ian Huntley's parents were Irish and he went to America aged 15 to wage a campaign for mass murder against the Protestant heathens, based upon the extremist preachings of Father O'Doyle in County Kerry, I would say he wasn't really British, just like Begum.

 

"Does abandoning Britain to fight in a foreign holy war, based on extremely warped interpretations of her foreign parents religion make her less British? Yes"

 

Sorry mate, but that's ridiculous. What you are saying there is that religion is an important proportion of what makes someone British - which is utter ****.

[Lighthouse]

"Does abandoning Britain to fight in a foreign holy war, based on extremely warped interpretations of her foreign parents religion make her less British? Yes"

 

Sorry mate, but that's ridiculous. What you are saying there is that religion is an important proportion of what makes someone British - which is utter ****.

 

 

I give up. If people seriously can't tell the difference between 'being a Muslim' and 'abandoning Britain to wage murderous Jihad in a foreign country' then they're never going to get my point.

 

I've provided a couple of examples of when I think a Westboro Baptist wouldn't be Japanese or a Catholic wouldn't be British in a similar situation. You can have another if you like:

 

Two Scousers move to Tashkent and have a son, they bring him up as a die hard Everton fan. Aged 15 he hears about two firms of Scousers and Mancs having a gang war on the streets of San Diego. He flies to America and spends the next 4 years doing drive-by shootings on bars in San Diego showing Man Utd games. Personally, I don't really think he's an Uzbek, so now you can call me racist against Scousers if you want.