Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[Jonnyboy]

Really odd assumption to make based on not a whole lot. Many were in favour of the Iraq war which was based on a lie which was discovered after the invasion. I doubt anyone was in further of an invasion once it was discovered that the dossier was made up. With regards to this bloke, it appears his motives were financial rather than any political motive or desire to spread terror in order to further an ideology which is the definition of a terrorist act. Otherwise any violent act for monetary gain would be considered an act of terror which is quite clearly tosh.

 

A feckin nine year old could tell the whole reason was a crock. In fact many school children did march against the invasion.

[Jonnyboy]

Thought even allowing for your sixth form ideology you’d understand how stupid that sounds. Bet I’m a Trump voter though eh

 

Don't start up again Grandad.

[hypochondriac]

A feckin nine year old could tell the whole reason was a crock. In fact many school children did march against the invasion.

Well that's complete cr*p. Many people supported the Iraq war at the time on the premise that they had weapons of mass destruction. There was not much of a reason to believe otherwise until after the event. This is going off topic anyway, I didn't even say if I supported it or not by the way I just think it's disingenuous to pretend that everyone knew they were lies at the time.

[Jonnyboy]

Well that's complete cr*p. Many people supported the Iraq war at the time on the premise that they had weapons of mass destruction. There was not much of a reason to believe otherwise until after the event. This is going off topic anyway, I didn't even say if I supported it or not by the way I just think it's disingenuous to pretend that everyone knew they were lies at the time.

 

Why did a million march? Why did the UNs weapons inspectors all say they had no weapons? Why did Bush try to pin 9/11 on Saddam? And you people call me naive?

[Jonnyboy]

I saw it with my own eyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/2867923.stm

Were you still in nappies Mr I Believe Everything The Government Tells Me Hypochondriac?

[hypochondriac]

I saw it with my own eyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/2867923.stm

Were you still in nappies Mr I Believe Everything The Government Tells Me Hypochondriac?

No one said there weren't some school children that protested a war. There would be protests against any war because some people are ideologically opposed to any sort of war under any circumstances- like corbyn. I'm really not interested in this subject anyway and it's not pertinent to this thread so by all means cling to your story that millions believed the dossier to be a lie before it was proven that the Labour Party lied to us. Just because you're an antifa supporter and thus have an inherent mistrust of any sort of figure in authority does not mean that everyone is lying to you at all times. The government lied about Iraq but it doesn't mean that everything that every government has done or ever will do is a lie in perpetuity.

 

In other news:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42622329

 

Let's hope this isn't the start of another spate of attacks again.

Edited 10 January, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Jonnyboy]

No one said there weren't some school children that protested a war. There would be protests against any war because some people are ideologically opposed to any sort of war under any circumstances- like corbyn. I'm really not interested in this subject anyway and it's not pertinent to this thread so by all means cling to your story that millions believed the dossier to be a lie before it was proven that the Labour Party lied to us. Just because you're an antifa supporter and thus have an inherent mistrust of any sort of figure in authority does not mean that everyone is lying to you at all times. The government lied about Iraq but it doesn't mean that everything that every government has done or ever will do is a lie in perpetuity.

 

In other news:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42622329

 

Let's hope this isn't the start of another spate of attacks again.

 

Lol, where did I say everything the government says is a lie? Go back to your Richard Spencer websites.

[whelk]

Don't start up again Grandad.

 

Ageist bstard

[hypochondriac]

Lol, where did I say everything the government says is a lie? Go back to your Richard Spencer websites.

 

I know that to you, everyone to the right of Mao is a white nationalist but you could at least attempt to have a conversation without resorting to spurious accusations of racism. It makes it hard to take you seriously wheb you see the spectre of white nationalism around every corner.

Edited 10 January, 2018 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

Maidstone boys up in town.

 

Just watched an interview with a an ex senior police office conducted after there were four fatal stabbings in London in one day the other week. He said on the same day there were 5 non fatal stabbings in Sheffield. He also made the point that although it was unusual for so many stabbing fatalities at one time, sadly it wasnt at all unusual to have multiple stabbings in cities and towns across the country on Friday and Saturday nights. The point remains that when Muslims carry out these atrocities this place lights up like a Christmas tree, yet the same people dont bat an eyelid when the butcherers are "our own."

But then you know that dont you? Not one to let that get in the way of a cheap jibe though. You are danger of turning into hypochondriac mate.

[hypochondriac]

Just watched an interview with a an ex senior police office conducted after there were four fatal stabbings in London in one day the other week. He said on the same day there were 5 non fatal stabbings in Sheffield. He also made the point that although it was unusual for so many stabbing fatalities at one time, sadly it wasnt at all unusual to have multiple stabbings in cities and towns across the country on Friday and Saturday nights. The point remains that when Muslims carry out these atrocities this place lights up like a Christmas tree, yet the same people dont bat an eyelid when the butcherers are "our own."

But then you know that dont you? Not one to let that get in the way of a cheap jibe though. You are danger of turning into hypochondriac mate.

Why would random stabbings be talked about in a thread about terrorism? As you well know, not every stabbing is a terrorist incident so why would you expect that to be spoken about on here? Fact is, a large number of terrorist incidents are committed by Muslim extremists, certainly a much larger proportion in the west over the last decade or so so of course it will be spoken about a lot. Edited 10 January, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Sour Mash]

Do you have a similar list of Christian attacks to compare it, otherwise it's a pretty pointless exercise.

 

Not sure how that website can claim to be non-partisan. They've clearly decided what their agenda is, as it 'examines the ideological threat that Islam poses to human dignity and freedom' and trying their best to portray this with statistics taken out of context.

There isn't a comparable Christian list, same reason there aren't Buddhist, Hindu, atheist or Sikh lists.

 

Feel free to stick them up if you've got them.

[Jonnyboy]

I know that to you, everyone to the right of Mao is a white nationalist but you could at least attempt to have a conversation without resorting to spurious accusations of racism. It makes it hard to take you seriously wheb you see the spectre of white nationalism around every corner.

 

Where we're all the protests against invading Afghanistan then? They were tiny in comparison because the majority of people (not yourself) obviously can think for themselves.

[Jonnyboy]

There isn't a comparable Christian list, same reason there aren't Buddhist, Hindu, atheist or Sikh lists.

 

Feel free to stick them up if you've got them.

 

http://www.upworthy.com/a-troll-demanded-a-muslim-man-show-examples-of-christian-terrorists-he-delivered

[whelk]

Worrying report in news about unregistered schools and seeming lack of appetite to close the schools down. All seem to be run by religious zealots and no accountability.

[shurlock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43200966

 

Not f**king Muhammad from Luton again. If not Antifa won't be far behind.

Edited 27 February, 2018 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43200966

 

Not f**king Muhammad from Luton again. If not Antifa won't be far behind.

Interesting of the BBC to go with that headline considering the ten Islamist threats foiled last year abd mentioned in the same article. An alternative slant could be:

 

"Hard right extremism statistically less than half as threatening as radical Islamic terrorism."

 

Both should be condemned of course but its telling that the hard right statistic is the one the BBC chooses to focus on.

Edited 27 February, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Jonnyboy]

Interesting of the BBC to go with that headline considering the ten Islamist threats foiled last year abd mentioned in the same article. An alternative slant could be:

 

"Hard right extremism statistically less than half as threatening as radical Islamic terrorism."

 

Both should be condemned of course but its telling that the hard right statistic is the one the BBC chooses to focus on.

 

Statistically I'd wager more headline reports, including those of the bbc, are made per foiled Islamic attack than per foiled far right attack.

[hypochondriac]

Statistically I'd wager more headline reports, including those of the bbc, are made per foiled Islamic attack than per foiled far right attack.

In the last 15 years who has been more successful at carrying out terrorist attacks in the UK? The far right or Islamic terrorists? Of course foiled Islamic terror plots are going to garner more headlines than other forms of attempted terrorism given the loss of life from the London bombings, Manchester bombings, knifings etc etc. Edited 27 February, 2018 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

Why would random stabbings be talked about in a thread about terrorism? As you well know, not every stabbing is a terrorist incident so why would you expect that to be spoken about on here? Fact is, a large number of terrorist incidents are committed by Muslim extremists, certainly a much larger proportion in the west over the last decade or so so of course it will be spoken about a lot.

 

Once again you completely miss the point. These random stabbings as you call them dont have to be talked about in a thread about terrorism (although how many times has this thread gone off topic?). The rise in knife crime, the new trend in acid attacks, these things deserve threads of their own. Yet it seems that unless these things are carried out by Muslims or immigrants the outrage level doesnt warrant major discussion here? Yes, of course it is right that the abhorrent acts carried out by any type of terrorists gets discussed, but the fact remains that we are all more likely to get killed or maimed by "our own" than terrorists. There was the usual kicking off on here about gangs of "foreign" sexual abusers yet, seemingly on an almost weekly basis we see news stories of Christian clergy being accused of sexual abuse and there is little or no response.

I will ask you the same question again. What makes the abhorrent acts committed by Muslims and immigrants more worthy of comment on an internet forum than similar crimes carried out by those who we recognise as "one of us?"

 

Also, as you were one of the people who thought it was funny when I raised the point that local communities were having to deal with serious anti social behaviour on a regular basis citing Maidstone as an example (as I lived there and worked for the CPS in their Maidstone office for a number of years so had first hand knowledge) here is another bit of stomach churning news. A young homeless Romanian man was beaten to death in a park in Loose, just outside Maidstone by three teenagers last year. All three were found guilty of his murder and received long jail sentences. You may have missed this on the news but I suspect that if the victim had been English and the three attackers of Eastern European origin, our resident Immigration correspondent would have been all over it like a rash.

 

We are up to page 124 on this topic. I bet you anything you like that if I were to start a thread on indigenous knife crime, acid attacks or sexual assault by Christian clergy, all things that happen here with sickening regularity, they would fizzle out after a few pages. So what makes these actions more comment worthy to some members of this forum when carried out by Muslims or immigrants than similar crimes carried out by "our own?"

[hypochondriac]

Once again you completely miss the point. These random stabbings as you call them dont have to be talked about in a thread about terrorism (although how many times has this thread gone off topic?). The rise in knife crime, the new trend in acid attacks, these things deserve threads of their own. Yet it seems that unless these things are carried out by Muslims or immigrants the outrage level doesnt warrant major discussion here? Yes, of course it is right that the abhorrent acts carried out by any type of terrorists gets discussed, but the fact remains that we are all more likely to get killed or maimed by "our own" than terrorists. There was the usual kicking off on here about gangs of "foreign" sexual abusers yet, seemingly on an almost weekly basis we see news stories of Christian clergy being accused of sexual abuse and there is little or no response.

I will ask you the same question again. What makes the abhorrent acts committed by Muslims and immigrants more worthy of comment on an internet forum than similar crimes carried out by those who we recognise as "one of us?"

 

Also, as you were one of the people who thought it was funny when I raised the point that local communities were having to deal with serious anti social behaviour on a regular basis citing Maidstone as an example (as I lived there and worked for the CPS in their Maidstone office for a number of years so had first hand knowledge) here is another bit of stomach churning news. A young homeless Romanian man was beaten to death in a park in Loose, just outside Maidstone by three teenagers last year. All three were found guilty of his murder and received long jail sentences. You may have missed this on the news but I suspect that if the victim had been English and the three attackers of Eastern European origin, our resident Immigration correspondent would have been all over it like a rash.

 

We are up to page 124 on this topic. I bet you anything you like that if I were to start a thread on indigenous knife crime, acid attacks or sexual assault by Christian clergy, all things that happen here with sickening regularity, they would fizzle out after a few pages. So what makes these actions more comment worthy to some members of this forum when carried out by Muslims or immigrants than similar crimes carried out by "our own?"

 

My guess is that those threads would be short because everyone would just be agreeing that knife crimes and acid attacks by indigenous people is disgusting and that more should be done in partnership with local communities and police to tackle it. The difference with this topic is you get page after page of the same few people- mostly yourself to be fair- knocking down strawmen and making up arguments like "not all Muslims" "what about the Crusades?" "Christians are evil too" "Nazis are Christians and had Christian belt buckles" "Katie Hopkins compared herself to Christ so is definitely Christian" "Islam is a peaceful religion" "the Islamic religion is not dominated by individuals with regressive views" etc etc etc ad nauseum. It's no wonder this topic is a lengthy one when that sort of guff begs to be challenged. Add to that that people are quite stirred with emotion when it comes to bit terrorist incidents like London and Manchester and it's no wonder at all that these events and how our society treats them is widely discussed. I'd also be willing to bet that people would have a hell of a lot more to say if stabbers in London were being guided by an extremist ideology and explicitly stated they were stabbing people in the name of their god. If there were Christian rape gangs operating in the North or England and one of the primary reasons cited for their abuse was their faith then there would absolutely be a number of pages talking about it on here and rightly so.

 

124 pages and we've somehow managed to return to that post-apocalyptic hellhole that is Maidstone. At this point it's rather like a cross between Mad Max and the future world from the Terminator films such is the depravity committed in that town on an hourly basis. #prayforMaidstone.

Edited 5 March, 2018 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

 

#PRAYFORMAIDSTONE

Edited 5 March, 2018 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

My guess is that those threads would be short because everyone would just be agreeing that knife crimes and acid attacks by indigenous people is disgusting and that more should be done in partnership with local communities and police to tackle it. The difference with this topic is you get page after page of the same few people- mostly yourself to be fair- knocking down strawmen and making up arguments like "not all Muslims" "what about the Crusades?" "Christians are evil too" "Nazis are Christians and had Christian belt buckles" "Katie Hopkins compared herself to Christ so is definitely Christian" "Islam is a peaceful religion" "the Islamic religion is not dominated by individuals with regressive views" etc etc etc ad nauseum. It's no wonder this topic is a lengthy one when that sort of guff begs to be challenged. Add to that that people are quite stirred with emotion when it comes to bit terrorist incidents like London and Manchester and it's no wonder at all that these events and how our society treats them is widely discussed. I'd also be willing to bet that people would have a hell of a lot more to say if stabbers in London were being guided by an extremist ideology and explicitly stated they were stabbing people in the name of their god. If there were Christian rape gangs operating in the North or England and one of the primary reasons cited for their abuse was their faith then there would absolutely be a number of pages talking about it on here and rightly so.

 

124 pages and we've somehow managed to return to that post-apocalyptic hellhole that is Maidstone. At this point it's rather like a cross between Mad Max and the future world from the Terminator films such is the depravity committed in that town on an hourly basis. #prayforMaidstone.

 

You are a really strange individual aren't you? As for praying for Maidstone. Hilarious. Instead, how about just showing a bit of respect for the poor kid who was beaten to death for no good reason? Or aren't you bothered because he wasnt killed by Muslims?

[hypochondriac]

#prayforMaidstone

 

Stop the Maidstone Romanian genocide now!

[sadoldgit]

#prayforMaidstone

 

Stop the Maidstone Romanian genocide now!

 

I can see why you back up the likes of Katie Hopkins and Jacob Rees-Mogg. You are just as odious. I wonder how your (non-Muslim) wife would feel about you making fun of the brutal murder of a young, homeless immigrant? Do you think she would be proud that you spend your days spouting this bile on an internet forum? Your comments on the Davide Astori thread were odd too. Just another foreigner died. So what? You are really all heart aren't you?

[sadoldgit]

My guess is that those threads would be short because everyone would just be agreeing that knife crimes and acid attacks by indigenous people is disgusting and that more should be done in partnership with local communities and police to tackle it. The difference with this topic is you get page after page of the same few people- mostly yourself to be fair- knocking down strawmen and making up arguments like "not all Muslims" "what about the Crusades?" "Christians are evil too" "Nazis are Christians and had Christian belt buckles" "Katie Hopkins compared herself to Christ so is definitely Christian" "Islam is a peaceful religion" "the Islamic religion is not dominated by individuals with regressive views" etc etc etc ad nauseum. It's no wonder this topic is a lengthy one when that sort of guff begs to be challenged. Add to that that people are quite stirred with emotion when it comes to bit terrorist incidents like London and Manchester and it's no wonder at all that these events and how our society treats them is widely discussed. I'd also be willing to bet that people would have a hell of a lot more to say if stabbers in London were being guided by an extremist ideology and explicitly stated they were stabbing people in the name of their god. If there were Christian rape gangs operating in the North or England and one of the primary reasons cited for their abuse was their faith then there would absolutely be a number of pages talking about it on here and rightly so.

 

124 pages and we've somehow managed to return to that post-apocalyptic hellhole that is Maidstone. At this point it's rather like a cross between Mad Max and the future world from the Terminator films such is the depravity committed in that town on an hourly basis. #prayforMaidstone.

 

So you completely missed the point that (many) posters on here have come on to support Muslims and immigrants due to the fact that the racists and Islamophobes were tarring them all with the same brush? The Katie Hopkins thing had absolutely nothing to do with her being a Christian or not. It was your attempt at deflection. The point was that the deeply unpleasant media whore was castigating peaceful Muslims and saying it was their responsibility to do more about Islamic terrorism - something which you agreed with, despite the fact that there had been a protest march in London my Muslims just days before. This is the woman who called immigrants coachroaches and made fun out of them dying at sea. But you would rather attack someone attack her than attack her. Speaks volumes. Due to the amount of nonsense being levelled at peaceful Muslims and immigrants, issues about Christianity not being perfect either were rightly raised. You seem to find it funny that the fact was raised that Germany was a predominantly Christian country when we went to war in 1939. I guess you people from the far right are easily deluded and amused. There are Christian "gangs" operating all over the UK raping and sexually abusing people. They are members of the clergy. The fact that they are not Muslim or immigrants doesnt make their behaviour any less abhorrent. Your constant pathetic jokes about Maidstone again mask the point. This place goes ape**** by the usual suspects every time Muslims and immigrants commit serious crimes yet they are being committed on a regular basis in our cities and towns and you and your buddies ignore them and wait for the next round of Muslim/immigrant slagging. You completely ignore the point that murder, rape and sexual assault are no more heinous if they are carried out by Muslims and or immigrants. The reason is quite clear, and it is the same reason that you ignored the many racists and Islamophobic comments earlier on this thread. Because you have some sympathy with them. You would far rather make facile comments about Katie Hopkins religion, Nazi belt buckles, Maidstone or a young guy being beaten to death than deal head on with clear racist and Islamophobic posts because you agree with them. I am sure none of us will forget your comment thanking God that your wife wasnt a Muslim. I am not sure if she would see it as dodging a bullet or not, if she was one.

You are not funny. You are not clever. You are a deeply unpleasant person who pretends to be caring and liberal but doesn't have the wit or intelligence to stop your true feelings and beliefs from leaking out.

[hypochondriac]

Thanks soggy but we've been over this thousands of times. I admire the attempt to keep the thread alive by repeating old arguments ad nauseum but all the points you just made have been countered on more than one occasion and I'm not going to repeat it all again only to have you ignore the answers and bring the same points up again in a few months. My wife is absolutely fine thanks and is touched by your interest in her. I'm still thankful every day that her father was a relatively liberal iraqi man (by Arabic standards anyway) who allowed her the freedom to be herself and to marry who she chooses. She often says how lucky she is considering some of her relatives are in arranged marriages or old and alone because family members have forbidden that they get married. Many Arabs are in the same position. Have a super day.

 

#stopthechristianrapegangs

Edited 7 March, 2018 by hypochondriac

[van Hanegem]

What makes the abhorrent acts committed by Muslims and immigrants more worthy of comment on an internet forum than similar crimes carried out by those who we recognise as "one of us?"

 

Fair question but I believe also rhetorical: many "Westerners" (myself included) consider islam a backward ideology and believe wahabism and salafism are a threat to western values (freedom of speech, equality of the sexes etc.). I'm not a sociologist but I reckon that attacks by muslimterrorists offer an opportunity to express the fear amongst westerners for islam gaining influence.

 

Then again: according to the FBI 37 Americans were killed by muslimterrorists since 9/11 while 190,000 Americans were murdered by their countrymen and yet many Americans are more afraid of some bearded idiot they'll probably never meet than their neighbours gun collection. So what does this mean? That many Americans are some kind of racist imbeciles? Though I do like to think so, I guess there's a more complex answer to that question.

[sadoldgit]

Fair question but I believe also rhetorical: many "Westerners" (myself included) consider islam a backward ideology and believe wahabism and salafism are a threat to western values (freedom of speech, equality of the sexes etc.). I'm not a sociologist but I reckon that attacks by muslimterrorists offer an opportunity to express the fear amongst westerners for islam gaining influence.

 

Then again: according to the FBI 37 Americans were killed by muslimterrorists since 9/11 while 190,000 Americans were murdered by their countrymen and yet many Americans are more afraid of some bearded idiot they'll probably never meet than their neighbours gun collection. So what does this mean? That many Americans are some kind of racist imbeciles? Though I do like to think so, I guess there's a more complex answer to that question.

 

Clearly there are issues with some elements of how some Muslims interpret the Koran but I think it goes deeper than that. Racism? Tribalism? Despite some on this thread not having it, there is very obviously a disparity between how sections of our society view criminal acts carried out by people viewed as not being of our society than those from within it. A Muslim or an immigrant carry out a criminal act will get far more media attention than someone as seen as being one of us. There has been another example of this yesterday in Oldham. A man was stabbed to death in Oldham after attending prayers in a mosque. You can bet your mortgage that Batman would have posted something about this if a Muslim had attacked a non Muslim. As it is it doesnt warrant a mention. Same crime but not worthy of comment on a thread that has been dealing with issues between different factions in our society.

 

My wife and I were talking about a similar situation the other day. We both have children from previous partners and agree that we are more tolerant of our own children's behaviour than we are of others. I am less tolerant of her son's behaviour and she of my daughters. Another example relates to our very own football club. When Cortese was in charge and there was a lot of talk about his behaviour, there were lots of comments about he might be a **** but he is our ****. If he had been running another club he would have got a dogs abuse regarding his behaviour, but as he was one of us, our tribe, we could live with it.

 

It is human nature and it happens all the time. I just dont see why some posters on here pretend that is isnt happening when this very thread is living proof that it is.

[whelk]

Clearly there are issues with some elements of how some Muslims interpret the Koran but I think it goes deeper than that. Racism? Tribalism? Despite some on this thread not having it, there is very obviously a disparity between how sections of our society view criminal acts carried out by people viewed as not being of our society than those from within it. A Muslim or an immigrant carry out a criminal act will get far more media attention than someone as seen as being one of us. There has been another example of this yesterday in Oldham. A man was stabbed to death in Oldham after attending prayers in a mosque. You can bet your mortgage that Batman would have posted something about this if a Muslim had attacked a non Muslim. As it is it doesnt warrant a mention. Same crime but not worthy of comment on a thread that has been dealing with issues between different factions in our society.

 

My wife and I were talking about a similar situation the other day. We both have children from previous partners and agree that we are more tolerant of our own children's behaviour than we are of others. I am less tolerant of her son's behaviour and she of my daughters. Another example relates to our very own football club. When Cortese was in charge and there was a lot of talk about his behaviour, there were lots of comments about he might be a **** but he is our ****. If he had been running another club he would have got a dogs abuse regarding his behaviour, but as he was one of us, our tribe, we could live with it.

 

It is human nature and it happens all the time. I just dont see why some posters on here pretend that is isnt happening when this very thread is living proof that it is.

 

Give me strength. What is with the reviving this thread with ‘some on here...’ as your perpetual line. You clearly don’t get it and so blinded in your want to be seen as the good guy with constant reference the bad guys (‘some on here’)

Which i can accept but why you keep coming back saying same stuff i do not know.

[hypochondriac]

Give me strength. What is with the reviving this thread with ‘some on here...’ as your perpetual line. You clearly don’t get it and so blinded in your want to be seen as the good guy with constant reference the bad guys (‘some on here’)

Which i can accept but why you keep coming back saying same stuff i do not know.

It's why I didn't bother going through it all again. He isn't interested in any answers or meaningful discussion, he just wants to virtue signal and makes himself feel superior to all the evil racists on here. Probably the most close minded individuals I've ever had the misfortune to have a discussion with on here which is saying something!

[van Hanegem]

Clearly there are issues with some elements of how some Muslims interpret the Koran but I think it goes deeper than that. Racism? Tribalism? Despite some on this thread not having it, there is very obviously a disparity between how sections of our society view criminal acts carried out by people viewed as not being of our society than those from within it. A Muslim or an immigrant carry out a criminal act will get far more media attention than someone as seen as being one of us. There has been another example of this yesterday in Oldham. A man was stabbed to death in Oldham after attending prayers in a mosque. You can bet your mortgage that Batman would have posted something about this if a Muslim had attacked a non Muslim. As it is it doesnt warrant a mention. Same crime but not worthy of comment on a thread that has been dealing with issues between different factions in our society.

 

My wife and I were talking about a similar situation the other day. We both have children from previous partners and agree that we are more tolerant of our own children's behaviour than we are of others. I am less tolerant of her son's behaviour and she of my daughters. Another example relates to our very own football club. When Cortese was in charge and there was a lot of talk about his behaviour, there were lots of comments about he might be a **** but he is our ****. If he had been running another club he would have got a dogs abuse regarding his behaviour, but as he was one of us, our tribe, we could live with it.

 

It is human nature and it happens all the time. I just dont see why some posters on here pretend that is isnt happening when this very thread is living proof that it is.

 

It's not about some muslims who interpret the koran wrongly SOG, it's about the fascism within islamic groups like wahabists and salafists who oppose the freedom of the individual and therefore don't belong in Europe. Governments have tolerated these groups for too long and now you can find citizens from across Europe revolting against their politicians, especially against socialist parties who clearly f*cked up.

 

Criminal acts from muslims and immigrants get more attention on a forum (I'm not so sure about traditional media) and yes, this could be a result of the old "us against them". Not surprising when you realise that too many muslims and immigrants do not integrate, let alone assimilate. Of course there's the danger that all muslims are lumped together as there are many who don't know any better. Last week Pegida again put some crosses (this time without pig blood...) in the ground where a mosque will be built in a Dutch city with the statement "#noislamjustfreedom". There we go...

 

At the same time you can ask yourself how authorities could fail big time in Rochdale, Rotherham and now Telford. Do you believe it's true that the fear of being accused of racism is playing a role? If so, isn't it logical that people start worrying about the influx of migrants and the way authorities and politicians are dealing with this?

[sadoldgit]

I dont disagreed that there a big problems within the Muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed. What hacks me off is the grief that the millions of peaceful and decent people get on the back of negative stuff which has nothing to do with them. I really dont know what went on with Rochdale etc regarding cover ups, but there have clearly also been major cover ups in both the C of E and the Catholic church regarding sexual abuse, so it isnt limited to one faction. Still it goes on. A young girl called Mariam Mustafa has died after what is deemed to be a racist attack in Nottingham. Not that it will be of interest to those on this thread who seem to sympathise with Britain First (although I am sure that hypochondriac will be along shortly to make a cheap shot out of her death, just as he did to Razvan Sirbu). The only way forward is more tolerance and understanding on both sides.

[whelk]

I dont disagreed that there a big problems within the Muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed. What hacks me off is the grief that the millions of peaceful and decent people get on the back of negative stuff which has nothing to do with them. I really dont know what went on with Rochdale etc regarding cover ups, but there have clearly also been major cover ups in both the C of E and the Catholic church regarding sexual abuse, so it isnt limited to one faction. Still it goes on. A young girl called Mariam Mustafa has died after what is deemed to be a racist attack in Nottingham. Not that it will be of interest to those on this thread who seem to sympathise with Britain First (although I am sure that hypochondriac will be along shortly to make a cheap shot out of her death, just as he did to Razvan Sirbu). The only way forward is more tolerance and understanding on both sides.

 

Nottingham Police have said nothing to indicate it was a hate crime. A despicable attack of course however the fact that you want to use it in your what must only be described as a game to you in point scoring says more about you the the’ forum gang’ you are so keen to brand as racists.

[van Hanegem]

I dont disagreed that there a big problems within the Muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed. What hacks me off is the grief that the millions of peaceful and decent people get on the back of negative stuff which has nothing to do with them. I really dont know what went on with Rochdale etc regarding cover ups, but there have clearly also been major cover ups in both the C of E and the Catholic church regarding sexual abuse, so it isnt limited to one faction. Still it goes on. A young girl called Mariam Mustafa has died after what is deemed to be a racist attack in Nottingham. Not that it will be of interest to those on this thread who seem to sympathise with Britain First (although I am sure that hypochondriac will be along shortly to make a cheap shot out of her death, just as he did to Razvan Sirbu). The only way forward is more tolerance and understanding on both sides.

 

I can't speak for other other forum members but I don't have the impression that anyone here blames each and every muslim SOG, just like they don't blame every catholic for the vile acts within the catholic church or other religions. There's no difference between the killing of an innocent muslim and the killing of an innocent non-muslim, it's all horrible. But comparing the dirt within christianity with islam is imo not relevant. Though I feel sorry for every individual believing fairytales, there's no danger coming from christians as their churches have accepted they're not calling the shots (though the vatican still has to much influence in the world...) while the islam will never accept a minor role.

 

In the Netherlands muslims used to vote for socialist parties in the elections but that's changed. The majority now votes for a muslim party which has three seats in the parliament at the moment and though they don't have much power they enlarge the gap between muslims and non-muslims, especially by filming muslim members from other political parties who vote for something which contradicts islamic views and posting this on YouTube etc. In Turkish mosques imams tell their flock for which party they have to vote as instructed by Diyanet which is sponsored by Erdogan and his cronies and you'll probably agree that muslims are not well known for independent thought... In Rotterdam there's also a local muslim party gaining influence, they are making an issue of "the abuse caused by the separation of church and state". What the hell?

 

We're going the wrong way SOG and and we need to resist islam gaining too much territory in Europe, maybe topics like this will help to wake up some people who - unlike you -don't see any problems at all.

[sadoldgit]

There has been a backlash against Muslims and immigrants in general both on here and throughout the country vG. That is the issue. You say I dont see any issues at all. I dont see any issue with Islam and peaceful law abiding Muslims. Why should I? Why should anybody? I do have issues with anyone who kills, maims, rapes etc. whatever their religion, colour, creed. You talk about Islam gaining territory in Europe as if they are invading? When people of different races, religions etc feel under threat they tend to become even more insular and less tolerant. There are clearly issues between church and state but we need to work with all religions and factions and find a way that works for all. Seeing them as the enemy and something that needs being resisted is only going to perpetuate the problems. You highlight the areas where there are problems, perhaps we should also talk about the areas where there is integration and where people find a way to live together peacefully and hold those up as the models that we should be aspiring to. Simplistic? Yes. But surely better than division, suspicion and intolerance.

[sadoldgit]

Nottingham Police have said nothing to indicate it was a hate crime. A despicable attack of course however the fact that you want to use it in your what must only be described as a game to you in point scoring says more about you the the’ forum gang’ you are so keen to brand as racists.

 

That is not what I heard initially. When first reported they said at the time they believed it to be racially motivated. That may have changed since. So you dont think that there are any racists on this thread?

[hypochondriac]

That is not what I heard initially. When first reported they said at the time they believed it to be racially motivated. That may have changed since. So you dont think that there are any racists on this thread?

There's definitely a fantasist and a social justice warrior. Not to mention a virtue signaller and a patroniser. Not so sure about racists, particularly because extremist ideologies can be practiced by any race of people.

[whelk]

That is not what I heard initially. When first reported they said at the time they believed it to be racially motivated. That may have changed since. So you dont think that there are any racists on this thread?

 

I don’t think Hypo is no. Not being a liberal doesn’t mean you are racist. Sour Mash is racist. I haven’t kept tabs on others

[van Hanegem]

There has been a backlash against Muslims and immigrants in general both on here and throughout the country vG. That is the issue. You say I dont see any issues at all. I dont see any issue with Islam and peaceful law abiding Muslims. Why should I? Why should anybody? I do have issues with anyone who kills, maims, rapes etc. whatever their religion, colour, creed. You talk about Islam gaining territory in Europe as if they are invading? When people of different races, religions etc feel under threat they tend to become even more insular and less tolerant. There are clearly issues between church and state but we need to work with all religions and factions and find a way that works for all. Seeing them as the enemy and something that needs being resisted is only going to perpetuate the problems. You highlight the areas where there are problems, perhaps we should also talk about the areas where there is integration and where people find a way to live together peacefully and hold those up as the models that we should be aspiring to. Simplistic? Yes. But surely better than division, suspicion and intolerance.

 

I didn't say that you don't see any issues at all SOG, on the contrary. As you said earlier: "I don't disagree that there are big problems within the muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed." Now you're telling me you don't see any issue with islam, do you really believe that "the big problems within muslim communities" have nothing to do with islam?

 

Yes, islam is gaining territory in Europe, it would be very naive to deny this. I don't like the term "invading", it reminds me of the Dutch politician Wilders who adresses the problems with islam in a disgusting way. Then again, Wilders' political party is the second largest in the Netherlands and it's not only the usual suspects who vote for him. Many christians from Turkey, Iraq, Egypt etc. who came to the Netherlands in the past 30 years believe he's the only politician who understands what is happening: "we know what life is in islamic countries, we don't want that again..."

 

I agree, it would be a good thing to also mention the areas where integration is happening. Last year there was a women's organization (including muslim women!) who suggested a poster campaign to celebrate love in Amsterdam, "the gay capital of Europe". Too bad the city council refused this as they deemed it too offensive for the traditional muslims... Earlier the city council of Rotterdam thought it was a good idea and went along. I guess I won't have to tell you how muslim organanizations and so called left wing liberals reacted...

 

[hypochondriac]

Staggering incompetence shown by the British authorities regarding the failed tube bomb from last year:

 

‘As part of his questioning by the Home Office in Croydon in January 2016, Hassan was asked: “Have you previously or are you part of a terrorist group, for example Isis?”

 

According to notes taken by a worker at the hostel, who attended the interview, Hassan replied: “Yes, I was recruited by Isis for three months. They trained us on how to kill and it was all religious based.”

 

Asked how he got away, Hassan said: “Iraqi soldiers came into the Isis territory and told everyone to go and some of the children stayed, some died and some went back to their families.”

 

When he was asked if Isis sent him to Europe to work for them, Hassan said: “No.”

 

Instead of getting Hassan out of the country ASAP, the UK continued to do everything it could for him, including finding him a school place and placing him with a foster family to whom*they*forgot to mention the Isis stuff.

 

Absolutely unbelievable.

[hypochondriac]

I didn't say that you don't see any issues at all SOG, on the contrary. As you said earlier: "I don't disagree that there are big problems within the muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed." Now you're telling me you don't see any issue with islam, do you really believe that "the big problems within muslim communities" have nothing to do with islam?

 

Yes, islam is gaining territory in Europe, it would be very naive to deny this. I don't like the term "invading", it reminds me of the Dutch politician Wilders who adresses the problems with islam in a disgusting way. Then again, Wilders' political party is the second largest in the Netherlands and it's not only the usual suspects who vote for him. Many christians from Turkey, Iraq, Egypt etc. who came to the Netherlands in the past 30 years believe he's the only politician who understands what is happening: "we know what life is in islamic countries, we don't want that again..."

 

I agree, it would be a good thing to also mention the areas where integration is happening. Last year there was a women's organization (including muslim women!) who suggested a poster campaign to celebrate love in Amsterdam, "the gay capital of Europe". Too bad the city council refused this as they deemed it too offensive for the traditional muslims... Earlier the city council of Rotterdam thought it was a good idea and went along. I guess I won't have to tell you how muslim organanizations and so called left wing liberals reacted...

 

Indeed van hanegem. Extremely telling that many who have fled some of these countries like Syria are incredibly supportive of Wilders. I think he's a hit too strong if we want to fix the problems and bring Muslim reformers on board, but it's still very interesting:

 

https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/03/syrian-refugees-support-geert-wilders-because-he-understands-the-dangers-of-islam/

 

A Christian refugee from Turkey says he’s not surprised by the Freedom Party’s popularity. Abraham Beth Arsan says: “Syrian-Orthodox Christians fled from the Islamic world. We fled because our faith was forbidden. We’ve always been oppressed.”

[van Hanegem]

Indeed van hanegem. Extremely telling that many who have fled some of these countries like Syria are incredibly supportive of Wilders. I think he's a hit too strong if we want to fix the problems and bring Muslim reformers on board, but it's still very interesting:

 

https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/03/syrian-refugees-support-geert-wilders-because-he-understands-the-dangers-of-islam/

 

A Christian refugee from Turkey says he’s not surprised by the Freedom Party’s popularity. Abraham Beth Arsan says: “Syrian-Orthodox Christians fled from the Islamic world. We fled because our faith was forbidden. We’ve always been oppressed.”

 

Wilders is losing it, seeing his latest campaign against islam even I am nearly tempted to a silly and meaningless expression like "je suis muslim".

I guess being protected 24/7 and moving to another safe house every three weeks for 13 years now does have an impact on one's mental health.

 

But it is remarkable that christian refugees or immigrants from muslim countries integrate quietly while so many of their muslim countrymen after 50 years still don't. The French Zineb El Rhazoui (the sole survivor of the attacks on Charlie Hebdo because she wasn't there) said that in France the left elite (politicians, journalists etc.) refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem with islam, they consider muslims as people who are not able to accede to universalism and think it's best to leave these miserable people alone: "white people like us believe in equality of the sexes and universalism and we got rid of superstition, those muslims can't so just let them be and allow them to be different". How racist is that? It's not very different in countries like Germany or the Netherlands where the elite consider the populist parties as a nuisance which will go away when the economy is booming. Each day we get to hear Russia is threatening Europe, as usual the real threat comes from within...

 

Europe needs more people like Zineb El Rhazoui who speak out against the facism within islam without being part of some right wing movement.

 

[sadoldgit]

I didn't say that you don't see any issues at all SOG, on the contrary. As you said earlier: "I don't disagree that there are big problems within the muslim communities in a number of areas van H. They clearly need to be addressed." Now you're telling me you don't see any issue with islam, do you really believe that "the big problems within muslim communities" have nothing to do with islam?

 

Yes, islam is gaining territory in Europe, it would be very naive to deny this. I don't like the term "invading", it reminds me of the Dutch politician Wilders who adresses the problems with islam in a disgusting way. Then again, Wilders' political party is the second largest in the Netherlands and it's not only the usual suspects who vote for him. Many christians from Turkey, Iraq, Egypt etc. who came to the Netherlands in the past 30 years believe he's the only politician who understands what is happening: "we know what life is in islamic countries, we don't want that again..."

 

I agree, it would be a good thing to also mention the areas where integration is happening. Last year there was a women's organization (including muslim women!) who suggested a poster campaign to celebrate love in Amsterdam, "the gay capital of Europe". Too bad the city council refused this as they deemed it too offensive for the traditional muslims... Earlier the city council of Rotterdam thought it was a good idea and went along. I guess I won't have to tell you how muslim organanizations and so called left wing liberals reacted...

 

 

I dont see any problems with the peaceful and law abiding followers of Islam. I am sure they would argue that those who practice anti-social activities and base their actions on the Koran are misinterpreting the teachings - much the same with other religions. These religions are not going to go away. We either learn to co-exist or this crap will go on forever.

[van Hanegem]

I dont see any problems with the peaceful and law abiding followers of Islam. I am sure they would argue that those who practice anti-social activities and base their actions on the Koran are misinterpreting the teachings - much the same with other religions. These religions are not going to go away. We either learn to co-exist or this crap will go on forever.

 

That's very noble SOG, like it was very noble too to don't see any problems with Germans who believed national socialism was a good thing 80 years ago. Law abiding citizens who would surely condemn the stuff their leaders practiced "if they only had known..."

[Verbal]

That's very noble SOG, like it was very noble too to don't see any problems with Germans who believed national socialism was a good thing 80 years ago. Law abiding citizens who would surely condemn the stuff their leaders practiced "if they only had known..."

 

FFS.

 

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1."

[hypochondriac]

I dont see any problems with the peaceful and law abiding followers of Islam.

Partially agree, peaceful followers of Islam of which there are many are not directly responsible for extremism although it's worth bearing in mind how obstructive many within the Islamic community have been to solving the Islamic extremist problem- look at how reformers are treated by their fellow Muslims for example or the opposition towards the Prevent strategy which whilst it has some clear flaws is at least attempting to do something.

 

I am sure they would argue that those who practice anti-social activities and base their actions on the Koran are misinterpreting the teachings - much the same with other religions.

 

They would and the extremists would argue the opposite. There is though currently a much greater problem statistically with Islamic extremism across the world than extremism from other religions. Its unhelpful to lump all religions in together and pretend that there isn't a very specific problem with Islamic extremism that is separate from extremist Buddhists, Sikhs or Christians for example. This is something that many Muslims would be in agreement with so its not controversial to suggest that is a distinct problem with Islamic extremism.

 

 

These religions are not going to go away. We either learn to co-exist or this crap will go on forever.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that religions will disappear, which is why the best strategy is to call for an Islamic reformation similar to one's that other religions went through ages ago. The problem as I stated earlier is that there is great opposition to Muslim reformists from their fellow Muslims. Reformists need to be supported and extremists elements need to be vocally opposed by wider secular society but also from within the religion itself. To pretend that the extremist elements have "nothing to do with Islam" is entirely false and a number of Muslims would laugh at such an incorrect statement

Edited 23 March, 2018 by hypochondriac

[van Hanegem]

FFS.

 

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1."

 

Mussolini would be 2?

[van Hanegem]

I don't think anyone has suggested that religions will disappear, which is why the best strategy is to call for an Islamic reformation similar to one's that other religions went through ages ago. The problem as I stated earlier is that there is great opposition to Muslim reformists from their fellow Muslims. Reformists need to be supported and extremists elements need to be vocally opposed by wider secular society but also from within the religion itself. To pretend that the extremist elements have "nothing to do with Islam" is entirely false and a number of Muslims would laugh at such an incorrect statement

 

I've always hoped there would be some kind of European islam, a more enlightened version which could adapt to European democracy, values etc. Of course there are muslims who have adjusted themselves to life in European countries but too many of them didn't and I really doubt they ever will. There won't be a reformation from within islam Hypo, it needs to be ignited from outside.

Amazingly there are socialists who understand this. The Danish socialist party welcomed migrants from the Middle-East with open arms back in '95 but they've concluded it was a mistake to believe that the second generation of these migrants would adapt and they blame themselves for the realisation of parallel societies. So now they have a totally different view on migration from islamic countries and they've also initiated a package of measures to take on the problems with muslims like: little kids get pork meat for lunch at school (this is for real! ) and they have to speak Danish fluently otherwise they have to follow special classes, muslim women have to accept full time jobs or they will lose all social security benefits, there's a maximum of 30% of non western migrants in urban areas, muslim girls must be allowed to have a relationship with Danes.

 

Really amazing to hear all this from socialist politicians, in this link you can find a video: https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2224187-nationalistische-koers-moet-deense-sociaaldemocraten-redden.html

Most is in Dutch and Danish but the interviews are in English.

[hypochondriac]

Thanks for that. Very interesting initiatives and possibly some things that other western Europeans countries may have to adopt in time. I definitely think we have to be more forceful about standing up for our values in a similar manner. Parallel societies are simply a bad idea and Foster mistrust on both sides. I've previously advocated for greater surveillance of mosques and an examination of ones that have been proven to harbour and encourage terrorists. Maajid Nawaz suggested changing the prevent strategy to the engage strategy and supporting moderate Muslims like himself to a greater degree which is something that I wholeheartedly support- although the problem there is that whatever the government initiative is called it would be dismissed by some Muslim factions who will aim refuse to engage to combat extremism from their community.

 

I agree with your wider point that we have to firstly accept the problem of a lack of integration from a large number of the Islamic community and the come up with a firm strategy to deal with the problem that doesn't lead to racist attacks but which isn't afraid of tackling the problem for fear of being labelled a racist. I think thats an action that moderate Muslims, individuals of other faiths and the average citizen of the UK and Europe would be incredibly supportive of.