Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[whelk]

Funny, the decades of homophobia I've encountered in everyday life has all come from white English people.

 

You may need to mix more in the Muslim community? You could link up with SOG and have a day out.

[shurlock]

You may need to mix more in the Muslim community? You could link up with SOG and have a day out.

 

Maybe soggy is thinking about Saturday nights out in Maidstone in 1983 when he was a young’un.

 

http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-30/personal-relationships/homosexuality.aspx

[hypochondriac]

Do you expect the Muslim Council to endorse gay marriage?

Of course not but it's yet more evidence of these types of attitudes. The vast majority of Muslims do not support homosexuality and many believe it should be made illegal. It's hardly the most controversial statement in the world but some are incapable of having a simple conversation about it without indulging in whataboutery or denying that it is the case. Edited 12 October, 2017 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

Sally Jones killed in a drone strike. Good news...

Was Sally Jones a traitor, or do you think she would have voted to leave the EU ?

[Lighthouse]

Funny, the decades of homophobia I've encountered in everyday life has all come from white English people.

 

Pretty much inevitable as the majority of people you meet in your life will be white, English people. It's like me saying that the 3 or 4 people I know who have been involved in traffic accidents are white English people. Therefore Muslims and Chinese are better drivers.

 

Before making an accurate comparison you would have to live as an openly gay couple if somewhere like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

 

Sally Jones just reinforces to me how thick and gullible some people must be. I'd be hard pushed to buy their sh*t if I was a conservative Muslim, so how an English Christian/atheist gets to believe it I've no idea. Just believed whatever her husband told her I guess.

Edited 12 October, 2017 by Lighthouse

[Saint86]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-islam-gay-marriage-relationships-faith-pride-christianity-culture-a7835671.html%3Famp

 

Many argue that to be gay and Muslim is an utter irreconcilability – “no Muslim is gay” was a remark I saw on*Twitter today. When one learns that The Muslim Council of Britain opposed same-sex marriage in 2013, we understand how these views are generated.

 

So again I ask, are you suggesting that on average, UK Muslims do not hold more regressive views regarding homosexuality than the rest of the UK population? If you are suggesting that then you're just denying facts at this point and I would suggest are being wilfully ignorant.

 

Well said Hypo; I'll salute anyone who challenges and confronts these ignorant fools (at best) that delight in championing any cause that talks down or shames the country.

[Jonnyboy]

You may need to mix more in the Muslim community? You could link up with SOG and have a day out.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-anti-lgbt-address-hate-group-summit-meeting-first-president-us-homphobia-a7997401.html

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-islam-gay-marriage-relationships-faith-pride-christianity-culture-a7835671.html%3Famp

 

Many argue that to be gay and Muslim is an utter irreconcilability – “no Muslim is gay” was a remark I saw on*Twitter today. When one learns that The Muslim Council of Britain opposed same-sex marriage in 2013, we understand how these views are generated.

 

So again I ask, are you suggesting that on average, UK Muslims do not hold more regressive views regarding homosexuality than the rest of the UK population? If you are suggesting that then you're just denying facts at this point and I would suggest are being wilfully ignorant.

 

Because the Church of England and other Christian organisations have been banging the drum for same sex marriage for years!

[hypochondriac]

Because the Church of England and other Christian organisations have been banging the drum for same sex marriage for years! [emoji38]

Why do you continually indulge in whataboutery and refuse to discuss the issues? The Catholic church is entirely irrelevant in this conversation and it appears you are just deflecting rather like soggy does.

[hypochondriac]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-anti-lgbt-address-hate-group-summit-meeting-first-president-us-homphobia-a7997401.html

Again, absolutely no relevance to regressive attitudes within the Islamic community. Simply deflection.

[Jonnyboy]

Why do you continually indulge in whataboutery and refuse to discuss the issues? The Catholic church is entirely irrelevant in this conversation and it appears you are just deflecting rather like soggy does.

 

You are talking about prevalent attitudes in the UK population. You can't just look at one subsection of society in particular to get an accurate picture. It's like me saying there is a problem with paedophilia in Catholic people in the UK that needs to be cracked down on.

[Lighthouse]

You are talking about prevalent attitudes in the UK population. You can't just look at one subsection of society in particular to get an accurate picture. It's like me saying there is a problem with paedophilia in Catholic people in the UK that needs to be cracked down on.

 

That’s a separate thread, if you want to start it then go ahead. The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is illegal in almost all Muslim countries and punishable by death in some of them. It’s strongly at odds with the Qur’an and many British Muslims are no different to those in Muslim countries.

[whelk]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-anti-lgbt-address-hate-group-summit-meeting-first-president-us-homphobia-a7997401.html

 

And you posted that why?

[hypochondriac]

You are talking about prevalent attitudes in the UK population. You can't just look at one subsection of society in particular to get an accurate picture. It's like me saying there is a problem with paedophilia in Catholic people in the UK that needs to be cracked down on.

No I wasn't I was talking about the higher rate of regressive attitudes with regards to homosexuality in the UK Muslim community in comparison to the average attitudes of the rest of the UK population. You're the one who decided to play whataboutery with catholics. That has zero relevance to the topic and clearly this tactic was used to try to avoid admitting that there is a problem here.

 

It's nothing like you talking about paedophilia unless you have statistics that suggest that attitudes to paedophilia amongst catholics differ dramatically from the attitudes of the rest of the UK- I strongly suspect this is not the case.

Edited 12 October, 2017 by hypochondriac

[shurlock]

No I wasn't I was talking about the higher rate of regressive attitudes with regards to homosexuality in the UK Muslim community in comparison to the average attitudes of the rest of the UK population. You're the one who decided to play whataboutery with catholics. That has zero relevance to the topic and clearly this tactic was used to try to avoid admitting that there is a problem here.

 

Why do you think surveys about societal attitudes use baselines and control groups?

[hypochondriac]

Why do you think surveys about societal attitudes use baselines and control groups?

Do you believe that it is not the case that Muslims in the UK and abroad have more regressive views with regards to homosexuality than the average views of the rest of the UK? Clearly this is the case even if you ignore polls and look at the anecdotal evidence of the experiences of homosexuals from the community and by actually talking to UK based Muslims.

[shurlock]

Do you believe that it is not the case that Muslims in the UK and abroad have more regressive views with regards to homosexuality than the average views of the rest of the UK? Clearly this is the case even if you ignore polls and look at the anecdotal evidence of the experiences of homosexuals from the community and by actually talking to UK based Muslims.

 

Yes British Muslims, on average, have more regressive attitudes towards homosexuality than the rest of the UK population, though how far private beliefs lead to public action is another matter.

 

In highlighting Muslims, the implication is that there is something distinctive about this group, that it provides additional information about attitudes. In principle, homophobia might be found among the wider British public of which Muslims are a subset. Ockham’s Razor reminds us that among competing explanations, we should always choose the simpler, more general explanation.

 

As such, you correctly use a baseline to show that attitudes among Muslims are, in practice, different from the British public. Of course, the British public is not the only group to which Muslims belong: they are also a religion, among other things. Just in the same way you use a baseline to differentiate Muslims from the British public, it also makes sense to compare Muslims with other religious groups before drilling down further and using more detailed ascriptions or categories to understand the issue.

 

Thus, Jonnyboy is quite correct to ask whether homophobic attitudes are shared among other religious groups. It is not whataboutery or irrelevant deflection: it’s simply good science and logical reasoning. HTH.

Edited 12 October, 2017 by shurlock

[Jonnyboy]

Thank you Shurlock. The Football Lads Alliance (aka I Hate Muzzies or whatever they call themselves now) brigade on here pretend to be all balanced and logical, but their defence of homosexuality is something they'd never normally engage in. Just seems a case of hating Muslims more than gays (for now).

[van Hanegem]

Of course not but it's yet more evidence of these types of attitudes. The vast majority of Muslims do not support homosexuality and many believe it should be made illegal. It's hardly the most controversial statement in the world but some are incapable of having a simple conversation about it without indulging in whataboutery or denying that it is the case.

 

A survey from 2013, I doubt the outcome would be any better at this moment. Yet, there are still more natives in Western Europe who are homophobic than muslims when it comes to absolute numbers so we can easily have some more immigration from muslim countries...

https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

 

Another survey showed that 34% of British muslims are ok with killing apostates. I guess they're misunderstanding their religion... Or should I say ideology?

Edited 13 October, 2017 by van Hanegem

[Sour Mash]

Standard. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4986054/Freshers-fair-students-bombarded-leaflets.html?ITO=1490

[Sour Mash]

And so it continues....... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/17/uk-most-severe-terror-threat-ever-mi5-islamist

[Sour Mash]

And to follow on from the MI5 piece above, here is the 'hippy' attitude described so well by Noel Gallagher at the start of the week which will help ensure these attacks continue https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/naive-young-jihadis-should-rejoin-society-without-facing-court-says-watchdog-a3662891.html

[sadoldgit]

Why do you continually indulge in whataboutery and refuse to discuss the issues? The Catholic church is entirely irrelevant in this conversation and it appears you are just deflecting rather like soggy does.

 

Deflection? You have an issue with Muslims. My point is that the issue is wider than one religious group. Mankind is the problem, not Muslims. This is not deflection. It is common sense. People like you and Sour Mash seem to think that the problems will all go away if Muslims did not exist. No they wouldn't. People will continue to find reasons to murder, rape and steal from each other. By banging on about one specific group you completely miss the point. No one is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue with terrorists or some interpretations of this religion, but most people understand that the problem is more widespread than issues with one religion. You focus on the actions of a minority of one type of people whist the rest carry out atrocities on a daily basis that don't seem to bother you in the least. So much so that when issues in our own society are brought to your attention you turn it into a joke. Simply put, we treat each other far worse on a daily basis than extreme Muslims do. Deflection to you because all you are interested in, like Sour Mash, is bashing all Muslims.

[hypochondriac]

I don't have an "issue" with Muslims. Again, you are conflating me with Sour Mash- two individual posters with differing opinions. Kindly stop doing it because it makes you look foolish.

[van Hanegem]

Deflection? You have an issue with Muslims. My point is that the issue is wider than one religious group. Mankind is the problem, not Muslims. This is not deflection. It is common sense. People like you and Sour Mash seem to think that the problems will all go away if Muslims did not exist. No they wouldn't. People will continue to find reasons to murder, rape and steal from each other. By banging on about one specific group you completely miss the point. No one is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue with terrorists or some interpretations of this religion, but most people understand that the problem is more widespread than issues with one religion. You focus on the actions of a minority of one type of people whist the rest carry out atrocities on a daily basis that don't seem to bother you in the least. So much so that when issues in our own society are brought to your attention you turn it into a joke. Simply put, we treat each other far worse on a daily basis than extreme Muslims do. Deflection to you because all you are interested in, like Sour Mash, is bashing all Muslims.

 

Indeed, there are far too many idiots willing to kill for some reason, wether they are muslim or not. Most muslims are peaceful, just trying to make a living like every other individual. But what's your opinion on the emergence of islam in Europe? Do you believe this is a positive development? I don't mean the radical fanatics and all that stuff but the impact of islam and it's followers on life in general. Do you think the current contradictions between non-western muslims and European natives are just temporarily and things will cool down eventually?

[sadoldgit]

I don't have an "issue" with Muslims. Again, you are conflating me with Sour Mash- two individual posters with differing opinions. Kindly stop doing it because it makes you look foolish.

 

Yes you do. You don't remember saying thankfully your wife wasn't a practicing Muslim? Clearly, if you didn't have a problem with Muslims it wouldn't have been an issue. You also bang on about how they are not doing enough to distance themselves from terrorists (despite the terrorist acts having nothing to do with them). You have similar views to Sour Mash, albeit less extreme. If you cant see that (go back and read your own posts here) then you are the foolish one. I asked you several times why you weren't calling him on his Islamophobic posts earlier in this thread and it soon became apparent that you shared many of his views. You chose to attack those who were supporting the non extreme Muslims, so lets not pretend that you don't have anything against them.

[shurlock]

Yes you do. You don't remember saying thankfully your wife wasn't a practicing Muslim? Clearly, if you didn't have a problem with Muslims it wouldn't have been an issue. You also bang on about how they are not doing enough to distance themselves from terrorists (despite the terrorist acts having nothing to do with them). You have similar views to Sour Mash, albeit less extreme. If you cant see that (go back and read your own posts here) then you are the foolish one. I asked you several times why you weren't calling him on his Islamophobic posts earlier in this thread and it soon became apparent that you shared many of his views. You chose to attack those who were supporting the non extreme Muslims, so lets not pretend that you don't have anything against them.

 

Hypo’s slowly learning: he used to be a Sam Harris fanboy but has now tempered it with a bit of Maajid Nawaz. He is still prone to read utter crap like Peter Townsend but I sense he has room for growth.

[Jonnyboy]

I wonder if his other logins have practicing Muslim wives?

[hypochondriac]

Yes you do. You don't remember saying thankfully your wife wasn't a practicing Muslim? Clearly, if you didn't have a problem with Muslims it wouldn't have been an issue. You also bang on about how they are not doing enough to distance themselves from terrorists (despite the terrorist acts having nothing to do with them). You have similar views to Sour Mash, albeit less extreme. If you cant see that (go back and read your own posts here) then you are the foolish one. I asked you several times why you weren't calling him on his Islamophobic posts earlier in this thread and it soon became apparent that you shared many of his views. You chose to attack those who were supporting the non extreme Muslims, so lets not pretend that you don't have anything against them.

 

What rot. Just because I prefer that my wife isn't a practising Muslim doesn't mean I have an issue with all Muslims what sort of idiot logic is that? I support the views of some practising Muslims who want a reformation within Islam and believe that more needs to be done by other practising Muslims to root out problems within their religion. I'm agreeing with Muslims who have written and spoken extensively on the subject.

 

Islamaphobia is a nonsense fabricated word routinely used to silence anyone who criticises Islam. I reject its use completely. As to Sour Mash and his extremist views, I have continually said I disagree with much of what he believes albeit I support his right to hold those views because I believe in freedom of speech even for those views that I dislike or find hateful. It's only you that have invented that I agree with Sour Mash or that I have shied away from criticising him- I have not and there are plenty of examples in the thread if you want to go back and check. Kindly show me where I have attacked people who have supported non extreme Muslims? I already told you I support ex abd current Muslims who support a reformation and who call on other Muslims to do likewise. If I had an "issue" with Muslims as you put it then why would I wholeheartedly support these Muslims? Why would I have very warm relationships with my wife's relatives? Of course you choose to criticise a narrative that you've invented in your mind but the laughable thing is you don't even know any Muslims. As usual, try to base your responses in reality and respond to things I've actually said rather than things you think I may have said. I know it's a challenge for you but you'll get there.

[shurlock]

I wonder if his other logins have practicing Muslim wives?

 

More Antifa violence, I see.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/three-arrested-florida-shooting-speech-richard-spencer-white/

 

These lefties will never stop. Would you like to issue an apology or retraction?

 

#onbothsides

Edited 21 October, 2017 by shurlock

[sadoldgit]

Indeed, there are far too many idiots willing to kill for some reason, wether they are muslim or not. Most muslims are peaceful, just trying to make a living like every other individual. But what's your opinion on the emergence of islam in Europe? Do you believe this is a positive development? I don't mean the radical fanatics and all that stuff but the impact of islam and it's followers on life in general. Do you think the current contradictions between non-western muslims and European natives are just temporarily and things will cool down eventually?

 

I don't have a problem with those who want to follow any religion so long as they are law abiding and peaceful. I don't see any problem with Islam in Europe just as I don't see any problem with Christianity. There are conflicts in both religions with modern day liberalism but there have been conflicts with religious dogma going back centuries so I cant see that changing. The issue we face at the moment is the divide between those who are using Islam to forward their own agenda and those who just want to get on with their lives peacefully. The rising level of hate crime and some of the views posted on chat forums on the Internet show just how intolerance festers and grows where there are them and us cultures. As a non religious person I struggle with any concept of faith, but I don't think that anyone has the right to tell someone else how to think and what to believe if they are not doing any harm and until the extremists on all sides stop fuelling the fire, there will be no harmonious co-existence. That is what irritates me so much on this thread. The constant nit picking at those who are different just serves to further the cause of those who thrive on division and hatred. Decrying terrorist activities or homophobia when linked to a religion is one thing, damning all those who follow that religion peacefully and respectfully of others another. The problems in Europe or Western civilisation aren't down to Muslim or immigrants. They are down to people who cannot live lawfully and peacefully together. These people come in all shapes, sizes, colours and backgrounds yet certain people fixate on one kind and ignore the wider issues.

[hypochondriac]

Hypo’s slowly learning: he used to be a Sam Harris fanboy but has now tempered it with a bit of Maajid Nawaz. He is still prone to read utter crap like Peter Townsend but I sense he has room for growth.

Easy to snipe but what specific views of Sam harris or nawaz do you disagree with? Much easier to laugh at political commentators rather than to look at their conversations critically and think about what they are saying. Besides, my opinions are much more closely aligned to Jordan Peterson than anything specific to Islam.

[hypochondriac]

More Antifa violence, I see.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/three-arrested-florida-shooting-speech-richard-spencer-white/

 

These lefties will never stop. Would you like to issue an apology or retraction?

 

#onbothsides

Disgusting. I hope they are prosecuted fully. That sort of violence if that account is true has no place in a civilised society.

[shurlock]

Easy to snipe but what specific views of Sam harris or nawaz do you disagree with? Much easier to laugh at political commentators rather than to look at their conversations critically and think about what they are saying. Besides, my opinions are much more closely aligned to Jordan Peterson than anything specific to Islam.

 

It won’t be long till Sam Harris dons a white robe and sets up a Waco-like compound such is his cult like following.

 

My views of him are similar to many others who call him out as a charlatan. That holds not only for his stuff on religion but also utilitarianism and follows a pattern, going back to his dodgy PhD.

 

As for his writing on Islam and terrorism, his reductionism is grotesque. I don’t deny that religious texts matter on some level, though, by the same token, I acknowledge that they are polysemous and open to interpretation - that’s even true of the Hadiths that are more prescriptive than the Qu’ran, as scholars like Jonathan Brown have detailed. More important, looking for single causes -whatever they are- to understand complex phenomena is, at best, flawed, at worst, dangerous and dogmatic. It marginalises the role of history and politics, culture and context, never mind individual incentives and agency, all the colour and contingency that define human activity.

 

And yes Harris is a weasel. Harris says provocative and inflammatory things; yet when called out, Harris and his gullible band of groupies will self-righteously whine how he was taken out of context - for instance, how he was only conducting a thought experiment. He’ll then clarify what he really meant which is invariably banal and uncontroversial. Had his ‘real’ position been clear in the first place, he would have never attracted attention as he is fundamentally a mediocre thinker.

 

To paraphrase something I heard: understanding the Qu’ran is a piece of pîss; Harris, on the other hand, is impenetrable, except, of course, if you’re an active YouTube or reddit user, a 20-something who happens to dislike Musos. Only they get our poor, misunderstood Sam.

Edited 21 October, 2017 by shurlock

[van Hanegem]

I don't have a problem with those who want to follow any religion so long as they are law abiding and peaceful. I don't see any problem with Islam in Europe just as I don't see any problem with Christianity. There are conflicts in both religions with modern day liberalism but there have been conflicts with religious dogma going back centuries so I cant see that changing. The issue we face at the moment is the divide between those who are using Islam to forward their own agenda and those who just want to get on with their lives peacefully. The rising level of hate crime and some of the views posted on chat forums on the Internet show just how intolerance festers and grows where there are them and us cultures. As a non religious person I struggle with any concept of faith, but I don't think that anyone has the right to tell someone else how to think and what to believe if they are not doing any harm and until the extremists on all sides stop fuelling the fire, there will be no harmonious co-existence. That is what irritates me so much on this thread. The constant nit picking at those who are different just serves to further the cause of those who thrive on division and hatred. Decrying terrorist activities or homophobia when linked to a religion is one thing, damning all those who follow that religion peacefully and respectfully of others another. The problems in Europe or Western civilisation aren't down to Muslim or immigrants. They are down to people who cannot live lawfully and peacefully together. These people come in all shapes, sizes, colours and backgrounds yet certain people fixate on one kind and ignore the wider issues.

 

I used to have the same attitude towards muslims as to christians (or Jews for that matter): as long as they kept their faith and it's backward rules to themselves it was just fine by me. This changed when I lived in a quarter in Amsterdam back in the '90s which became more and more a muslim neighbourhood and it didn't take too long before I understood it wasn't going to be any fun to stay there. When my girlfriend told me she was frequently harassed by Moroccan and Turkish boys (you know, every girl in a skirt who's not a muslim must be a whore...) and when I witnessed little kids spitting at a Jewish couple and heard from a Surinamese lady she wasn't welcome as a home care worker in the neighbourhood because she was black, it was time to leave. Luckily I had a good job and enough money to move, many Dutch natives couldn't and it didn't surprise me that later on they were voting for someone like Geert Wilders as the local authorities as well as the government didn't address the problems in the muslim neighbourhoods. Though I very much dislike the way Geert Wilders is acting towards immigrants from muslim countries, I must admit he does give a voice to those people who are merely victims of failing politicians who want to be political correct. His party is the second largest now in the Netherlands and though other political parties refuse to form a government with Wilders, they do recognize the problems now. Though I'm not that confident in the actions they're taking as our new government has decided that every kid has to learn the Dutch Anthem at school (which is about William of Orange saying he's of German blood and that he has always respected the King of Spain...). Well, it's a start I guess...

 

You might think that the above has nothing to do with islam and that it's all related to cultural differences and foreigners having difficulties with integrating in another society. I don't believe that anymore as studies have shown that fundamentalism among Turkish and Moroccan muslims in Europe is far more common than it is among christians. How could this happen as they live in Europe for almost 50 years now? How come the majority of muslims in the Netherlands condone violence against those who criticize islam? Why can't a stand up comedian not make a joke about islam without fearing for his live while he can say anything he wants about christianity and it's vile priests? In my opinion this is very much related to islam and the way it's rules are forced upon many of it's followers who keep on living in a parallel society. Nothing good will come from this as we've seen in the quarters Molenbeek in Brussels, Rinkeby in Stockholm, the banlieus in Paris etc.

 

When you say that you don't see any problems with islam in Europe I suggest you look again SOG...

[sadoldgit]

What rot. Just because I prefer that my wife isn't a practising Muslim doesn't mean I have an issue with all Muslims what sort of idiot logic is that? I support the views of some practising Muslims who want a reformation within Islam and believe that more needs to be done by other practising Muslims to root out problems within their religion. I'm agreeing with Muslims who have written and spoken extensively on the subject.

 

Islamaphobia is a nonsense fabricated word routinely used to silence anyone who criticises Islam. I reject its use completely. As to Sour Mash and his extremist views, I have continually said I disagree with much of what he believes albeit I support his right to hold those views because I believe in freedom of speech even for those views that I dislike or find hateful. It's only you that have invented that I agree with Sour Mash or that I have shied away from criticising him- I have not and there are plenty of examples in the thread if you want to go back and check. Kindly show me where I have attacked people who have supported non extreme Muslims? I already told you I support ex abd current Muslims who support a reformation and who call on other Muslims to do likewise. If I had an "issue" with Muslims as you put it then why would I wholeheartedly support these Muslims? Why would I have very warm relationships with my wife's relatives? Of course you choose to criticise a narrative that you've invented in your mind but the laughable thing is you don't even know any Muslims. As usual, try to base your responses in reality and respond to things I've actually said rather than things you think I may have said. I know it's a challenge for you but you'll get there.

 

If you had read my post correctly (and previous posts) you would know that your view of your wife's position on Islam is not the only reason that I believe you have a problem with Muslims. I have based my opinion on your numerous posts on this thread and the way in which you have let certain things slide whilst attacking those who have supported non-extremist Muslims. Your "thankfully" comment just confirmed what I already thought.

 

Oh, and by the way. If you love someone enough to marry them, why would it be an issue whether they practised any religion or not?

 

I agree that Islamophobia isn't an ideal word. It is, however, the only one we have to describe those with a dislike or hatred of Muslims, so it will have to do.

[sadoldgit]

I used to have the same attitude towards muslims as to christians (or Jews for that matter): as long as they kept their faith and it's backward rules to themselves it was just fine by me. This changed when I lived in a quarter in Amsterdam back in the '90s which became more and more a muslim neighbourhood and it didn't take too long before I understood it wasn't going to be any fun to stay there. When my girlfriend told me she was frequently harassed by Moroccan and Turkish boys (you know, every girl in a skirt who's not a muslim must be a whore...) and when I witnessed little kids spitting at a Jewish couple and heard from a Surinamese lady she wasn't welcome as a home care worker in the neighbourhood because she was black, it was time to leave. Luckily I had a good job and enough money to move, many Dutch natives couldn't and it didn't surprise me that later on they were voting for someone like Geert Wilders as the local authorities as well as the government didn't address the problems in the muslim neighbourhoods. Though I very much dislike the way Geert Wilders is acting towards immigrants from muslim countries, I must admit he does give a voice to those people who are merely victims of failing politicians who want to be political correct. His party is the second largest now in the Netherlands and though other political parties refuse to form a government with Wilders, they do recognize the problems now. Though I'm not that confident in the actions they're taking as our new government has decided that every kid has to learn the Dutch Anthem at school (which is about William of Orange saying he's of German blood and that he has always respected the King of Spain...). Well, it's a start I guess...

 

You might think that the above has nothing to do with islam and that it's all related to cultural differences and foreigners having difficulties with integrating in another society. I don't believe that anymore as studies have shown that fundamentalism among Turkish and Moroccan muslims in Europe is far more common than it is among christians. How could this happen as they live in Europe for almost 50 years now? How come the majority of muslims in the Netherlands condone violence against those who criticize islam? Why can't a stand up comedian not make a joke about islam without fearing for his live while he can say anything he wants about christianity and it's vile priests? In my opinion this is very much related to islam and the way it's rules are forced upon many of it's followers who keep on living in a parallel society. Nothing good will come from this as we've seen in the quarters Molenbeek in Brussels, Rinkeby in Stockholm, the banlieus in Paris etc.

 

When you say that you don't see any problems with islam in Europe I suggest you look again SOG...

 

You raise valid points VG and I agree with you that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable. I did qualify my position by saying that I don't have a problem with those who live in harmony with others and clearly there are those who do not. It isn't just the preserve of some Muslims though. You will find levels of anti social behaviour where ever you go in the world. There are some people in every society that behave in ways that are abhorrent to decent, civilised people. Sadly for their religion, there are Muslims who give their beliefs a bad name but is that down to Islam or just the fact that even if they weren't Muslims they have a tendency to behave like arseholes? The issue for me is that humans are still basically tribal in nature and the problems we face are down to the need we feel to group ourselves together against other groups - be they people of a different religion, supporting a different football team, a different political party, speaking a different language etc etc. You see it on here all the time - the so called happy clappers against the bed wetters! Islam is not the problem per se. Human beings are.

[Orange]

I used to have the same attitude towards muslims as to christians (or Jews for that matter): as long as they kept their faith and it's backward rules to themselves it was just fine by me. This changed when I lived in a quarter in Amsterdam back in the '90s which became more and more a muslim neighbourhood and it didn't take too long before I understood it wasn't going to be any fun to stay there. When my girlfriend told me she was frequently harassed by Moroccan and Turkish boys (you know, every girl in a skirt who's not a muslim must be a whore...) and when I witnessed little kids spitting at a Jewish couple and heard from a Surinamese lady she wasn't welcome as a home care worker in the neighbourhood because she was black, it was time to leave. Luckily I had a good job and enough money to move, many Dutch natives couldn't and it didn't surprise me that later on they were voting for someone like Geert Wilders as the local authorities as well as the government didn't address the problems in the muslim neighbourhoods. Though I very much dislike the way Geert Wilders is acting towards immigrants from muslim countries, I must admit he does give a voice to those people who are merely victims of failing politicians who want to be political correct. His party is the second largest now in the Netherlands and though other political parties refuse to form a government with Wilders, they do recognize the problems now. Though I'm not that confident in the actions they're taking as our new government has decided that every kid has to learn the Dutch Anthem at school (which is about William of Orange saying he's of German blood and that he has always respected the King of Spain...). Well, it's a start I guess...

 

You might think that the above has nothing to do with islam and that it's all related to cultural differences and foreigners having difficulties with integrating in another society. I don't believe that anymore as studies have shown that fundamentalism among Turkish and Moroccan muslims in Europe is far more common than it is among christians. How could this happen as they live in Europe for almost 50 years now? How come the majority of muslims in the Netherlands condone violence against those who criticize islam? Why can't a stand up comedian not make a joke about islam without fearing for his live while he can say anything he wants about christianity and it's vile priests? In my opinion this is very much related to islam and the way it's rules are forced upon many of it's followers who keep on living in a parallel society. Nothing good will come from this as we've seen in the quarters Molenbeek in Brussels, Rinkeby in Stockholm, the banlieus in Paris etc.

 

When you say that you don't see any problems with islam in Europe I suggest you look again SOG...

 

Most of the forum head-in-the-sanders i would imagine live in the New Forest or Winchester, maybe Romsey.

 

So they're not very familiar with things like this.

[whelk]

Most of the forum head-in-the-sanders i would imagine live in the New Forest or Winchester, maybe Romsey.

 

So they're not very familiar with things like this.

 

And Maidstone

[van Hanegem]

You raise valid points VG and I agree with you that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable. I did qualify my position by saying that I don't have a problem with those who live in harmony with others and clearly there are those who do not. It isn't just the preserve of some Muslims though. You will find levels of anti social behaviour where ever you go in the world. There are some people in every society that behave in ways that are abhorrent to decent, civilised people. Sadly for their religion, there are Muslims who give their beliefs a bad name but is that down to Islam or just the fact that even if they weren't Muslims they have a tendency to behave like arseholes? The issue for me is that humans are still basically tribal in nature and the problems we face are down to the need we feel to group ourselves together against other groups - be they people of a different religion, supporting a different football team, a different political party, speaking a different language etc etc. You see it on here all the time - the so called happy clappers against the bed wetters! Islam is not the problem per se. Human beings are.

 

Sure, anti social behaviour can be found anywhere, like football stadiums... When I hear adolescents with a muslim background on Dutch television say that "the only good Jew is a dead Jew" I reckon it's a kind of anti social behaviour: they want to act tough in front of their peers, just like they do in the classrooms when their history teachers want to tell about the holocaust but are not allowed to: "it's all lies..." However, Dutch teachers also tell about toddlers putting their hands over their ears when they play a song in the classroom. Why? Because those little kids are told by their parents they are not allowed to listen to western music. I'm not talking about little kids from recent immigrants, these kids are the third generation of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants whose parents are born in the Netherlands. This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere, this is moronic cultural behaviour fueled by religious bull**** connected to islam. I know, within christianity there are those who don't watch telly on sunday because their God rested on the seventh day of the week or something like that but those morons at least keep their rules to themselves. When you read the survey I posted above you can read how widespread fundamentalism among muslims in Europe really is: "Almost 60 per cent agree that Muslims should return to the roots of Islam, 75 per cent think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick and 65 per cent say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Consistent fundamentalist beliefs, with agreement to all three statements, are found among 44 per cent of the interviewed Muslims." When you see the percentages on aversion against homosexuals or the idea the West wants to destroy islam, you'll get the picture about the problems islam is causing in Europe. I do not know if honour killings are directly related to islam and I doubt that even this religion tolerates a muslim beating up his wife (though there are Imams in British sharia councils who condone it...), fact is that women shelters in the Netherlands are bulging with female muslims who fear for their lives. And do you know what muslims are allowed to do with apostates? This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere in the world, this is strictly related to islam... Shocking isn't it?

 

Don't get me wrong SOG, of course there are many muslims who do want to participate in Dutch society and overcome the many obstacles they have to face (there is discrimination on the job market for example). I can only respect them for their perseverance and I like to help them whenever possible. Alas it's still a minor group who are capable to succeed, usually the ones who are open minded and not lost in their religion and who do not see themselves as victims of society. I really hope things will change for the better and therefore I believe it's necessary to put a stop to immigration from muslim countries. At this moment 6 or 7 percent of the Dutch population is muslim and though you might think it's only a small amount, their impact on society (huge financial cost, ongoing cultural divide) is frightening. Like you said: there are people (like Wilders) who thrive on this and given the hatred we see nowadays, I believe things will really go wrong when the mass immigration keeps going on. Like a Dutch war reporter said: "we're importing the war from the Middle East and the chaos from Africa, this can't be justified."

[hypochondriac]

If you had read my post correctly (and previous posts) you would know that your view of your wife's position on Islam is not the only reason that I believe you have a problem with Muslims. I have based my opinion on your numerous posts on this thread and the way in which you have let certain things slide whilst attacking those who have supported non-extremist Muslims. Your "thankfully" comment just confirmed what I already thought.

 

Oh, and by the way. If you love someone enough to marry them, why would it be an issue whether they practised any religion or not?

 

I agree that Islamophobia isn't an ideal word. It is, however, the only one we have to describe those with a dislike or hatred of Muslims, so it will have to do.

 

You've based your view on your own bias that conflated any sort of criticism of Islam with hatred of all Muslims. You're intellectually dishonest and not worth bothering with except to counter your blatant lies. I categorically do not have an issue with all Muslims and I absolutely condemn anyone who says that all Muslims are terrorists. Unlike you I have friends and family members who I love who are Muslim but I am glad that my wife is not a practising Muslim - chiefly because it would have been unlikely that she would be allowed to marry me. She agrees that she is incredibly lucky that her father was not a hardline Islamist, thankfully her dad loves Britain and the opportunities it has offered him and his family and he has never stopped her from experiencing life in the west but sadly not everyone is so lucky.

[hypochondriac]

Sure, anti social behaviour can be found anywhere, like football stadiums... When I hear adolescents with a muslim background on Dutch television say that "the only good Jew is a dead Jew" I reckon it's a kind of anti social behaviour: they want to act tough in front of their peers, just like they do in the classrooms when their history teachers want to tell about the holocaust but are not allowed to: "it's all lies..." However, Dutch teachers also tell about toddlers putting their hands over their ears when they play a song in the classroom. Why? Because those little kids are told by their parents they are not allowed to listen to western music. I'm not talking about little kids from recent immigrants, these kids are the third generation of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants whose parents are born in the Netherlands. This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere, this is moronic cultural behaviour fueled by religious bull**** connected to islam. I know, within christianity there are those who don't watch telly on sunday because their God rested on the seventh day of the week or something like that but those morons at least keep their rules to themselves. When you read the survey I posted above you can read how widespread fundamentalism among muslims in Europe really is: "Almost 60 per cent agree that Muslims should return to the roots of Islam, 75 per cent think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick and 65 per cent say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Consistent fundamentalist beliefs, with agreement to all three statements, are found among 44 per cent of the interviewed Muslims." When you see the percentages on aversion against homosexuals or the idea the West wants to destroy islam, you'll get the picture about the problems islam is causing in Europe. I do not know if honour killings are directly related to islam and I doubt that even this religion tolerates a muslim beating up his wife (though there are Imams in British sharia councils who condone it...), fact is that women shelters in the Netherlands are bulging with female muslims who fear for their lives. And do you know what muslims are allowed to do with apostates? This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere in the world, this is strictly related to islam... Shocking isn't it?

 

Don't get me wrong SOG, of course there are many muslims who do want to participate in Dutch society and overcome the many obstacles they have to face (there is discrimination on the job market for example). I can only respect them for their perseverance and I like to help them whenever possible. Alas it's still a minor group who are capable to succeed, usually the ones who are open minded and not lost in their religion and who do not see themselves as victims of society. I really hope things will change for the better and therefore I believe it's necessary to put a stop to immigration from muslim countries. At this moment 6 or 7 percent of the Dutch population is muslim and though you might think it's only a small amount, their impact on society (huge financial cost, ongoing cultural divide) is frightening. Like you said: there are people (like Wilders) who thrive on this and given the hatred we see nowadays, I believe things will really go wrong when the mass immigration keeps going on. Like a Dutch war reporter said: "we're importing the war from the Middle East and the chaos from Africa, this can't be justified."

Really good post. There needs to be an acknowledgement from governments that there are specific problems- some of which you have outlined- that are specific to Islam and many of those who follow it. Countering the issues you have outlined with" yeah well other religions have problems too" just isn't going to cut it any more. When these issuee are acknowledged and dealt with than I believe that many of those who are currently voting for populist parties will go elsewhere. The longer these problems are ignored or everyone is called racist, the more popular these parties will get. I hope it is dealt with sensibly by mainstream politicians because I don't think it's in anyone's interests for these fringe parties to gain power.

[shurlock]

You've based your view on your own bias that conflated any sort of criticism of Islam with hatred of all Muslims. You're intellectually dishonest and not worth bothering with except to counter your blatant lies. I categorically do not have an issue with all Muslims and I absolutely condemn anyone who says that all Muslims are terrorists. Unlike you I have friends and family members who I love who are Muslim but I am glad that my wife is not a practising Muslim - chiefly because it would have been unlikely that she would be allowed to marry me. She agrees that she is incredibly lucky that her father was not a hardline Islamist, thankfully her dad loves Britain and the opportunities it has offered him and his family and he has never stopped her from experiencing life in the west but sadly not everyone is so lucky.

 

Where is your wife's mother from? I recall you mentioning in the past that your wife is half-muslim.

Edited 23 October, 2017 by shurlock

[sadoldgit]

My Week As A Muslim - Best quote from Katie Freeman. "They are normal people like me."

 

Back to hypo. Well done, you have discovered a new word. Conflate. Your mistake was to over use it though.

 

Another trap you have fallen into (yet again) is the old I know people who are Muslims and you don't therefore your opinion somehow is more valid. I'll say again. if you don't know any Saints players does that invalidate your view of the team and club? You tell us that your wife isn't a practicing Muslim, so not a Muslim then.

 

Early on in this thread there were many attacks on non extreme Muslims and you let them go. I think I recall at one point you saying that there weren't any racists on this thread. At least we have put that one to bed. You supported that bastion of decency Katie Hopkins when she came out and said "normal" Muslims should be doing more to distance themselves from the extremists and when I supported them you were all over me like a rash. As someone who loves Muslims, you have not done a very good job of supporting those you say you love. Having been lumped in with Sour Mash you are now making an effort to disassociate yourself from him. It is a shame you didn't do that at the beginning. But then coming out and saying that you agree with me doesn't work with you does it. You always have to take an opposing position no matter what we debate. Here is another new C word for you. Contrary.

[hypochondriac]

Where is your wife's mother from? I recall you mentioning in the past that your wife is half-muslim.

 

Technically she is half Arabic as her mother converted to Islam when she married her Dad. She's English but unfortunately passed away two years ago. My father in law met her at university when he came to study in the 70s but then Saddam took power, killed his parents and he was unable to return to Iraq. He believes he owes Britain everything because he lost everything including his ties and his money in Iraq and the opportunities in Britain allowed him to build a life for himself for which he is extremely grateful. Sadly, my wife has relatives who come from stricter backgrounds such as her cousin who is in her mid thirties and was refused permission to marry the person she loved because her parents did not approve and she will most likely end up childless and living alone rather like my father in law's new wife- an incredibly warm and kind practicing Muslim- who was essentially living the life of a hermit in Brighton because her family were ashamed that she had not married at an earlier age.

Edited 24 October, 2017 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

My Week As A Muslim - Best quote from Katie Freeman. "They are normal people like me."

 

 

Back to hypo. Well done, you have discovered a new word. Conflate. Your mistake was to over use it though.

 

 

Another trap you have fallen into (yet again) is the old I know people who are Muslims and you don't therefore your opinion somehow is more valid. I'll say again. if you don't know any Saints players does that invalidate your view of the team and club? You tell us that your wife isn't a practicing Muslim, so not a Muslim then.

 

Where did I say my wife was a Muslim? I guarantee you she has more of an understanding of Muslims than some old bloke from a leafy suburb in Maidstone. Personally I'd trust her opinions on Islam and some Muslims a hell of a lot more than I would yours.

 

Early on in this thread there were many attacks on non extreme Muslims and you let them go

 

Odd but not a surprise that you assume that not commenting on every single attack posted on here (if I did specifically not comment on attacks on Muslims which I highly doubt) is an indication of support for an attack. What a disgusting mindset you have. To be clear, I condemn all violent attacks against anyone regardless of religious background. Not sure why something that obvious has to be articulated but as usual you invent things and assume motives based on your preconceived prejudices.

 

I think I recall at one point you saying that there weren't any racists on this thread.

 

I challenged your notion that this thread is full of racists posting bigotry which I continue to deny. Sour Mash has demonstrated with many of his comments that he has what I consider to be extremist views and I disagree with him in a host of areas yet you continue to erroneously align my views with his when I could not be clearer on this. One or two people have posted some suspect things but on the whole our definitions of "racism" are clearly very different. Whilst you see racists in every shadow, I would prefer to listen to legitimate comments and grievances expressed by people and challenge them on the points or areas where I disagree rather than branding every person I disagree with to be a racist or a nonsense word like islamophobic. Even Sour Mash has made a couple of points that I believe to be fair comment but no doubt you will consider a comment like that to be full throated "support" for a racist.

 

At least we have put that one to bed. You supported that bastion of decency Katie Hopkins when she came out and said "normal" Muslims should be doing more to distance themselves from the extremists

Please find the quotes where I supported Katie Hopkins. The only reason Hopkins has ever been on this thread is due to your idiotic assertion that Hopkins was more likely to be a christian because she compared herself to Jesus. She is a waste of oxygen and says deliberately provocative things to get a reaction and lying to suggest I "support" her will not change that.

 

and when I supported them you were all over me like a rash.

I have always believed that the Islamic community can do more in partnership with others to root out extremism within their community. I wrote a long and very reasonable post about it above- https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55460-Terrorist-Attacks-WARNING-CONTAINS-DISTRESSING-IMAGES&p=2544090#post2544090- outlining my reasons for this but you chose to largely ignore it. This is a reasonable point of view supported by a number of reforming Muslims in the UK which no doubt you will either ignore or suggest is an extremist view in some way. It is not.

 

As someone who loves Muslims, you have not done a very good job of supporting those you say you love.

 

Another lie. I am extremely supportive of reforming Muslims. They deserve and should expect the support of all UK citizens since what they support will undoubtedly make the UK safer and lead to a reduction in hate crime for all which is surely the aim.

 

Having been lumped in with Sour Mash you are now making an effort to disassociate yourself from him.

 

I was "lumped in" by you. You've done it throughout the entire thread and every single time I have refuted your idiocy. I've done it again in this post, maybe this time it will sink in.

 

It is a shame you didn't do that at the beginning.

 

I did.

 

But then coming out and saying that you agree with me doesn't work with you does it.

 

I pretty much don't agree with you, unless you are also saying that Sour Mash has some extremist views that I disagree with. I believe you live in some cosseted area of the country and have little grasp of why people may feel some grievance towards Islam specifically. Van Hanegem gave an excellent account above for why some Dutch people have some negative feelings towards certain Muslims and all you did was talk about other religions or humans who cause problems too.

 

You always have to take an opposing position no matter what we debate. Here is another new C word for you. Contrary.

 

Pot calling the kettle black here. Where have you made any attempt to listen to an opposing viewpoint and try and see some common ground? Where have you attempted to make any concessions to see that maybe those who criticise the uniquely high levels of regressive attitudes in Islam may have some semblance of a point? All you ever want to do is shout about problems in other religions or in other areas of life- as if anyone has ever suggested that there aren't other issues that have nothing do with Islam.

Edited 24 October, 2017 by hypochondriac

[SKD]

My Week As A Muslim - Best quote from Katie Freeman. "They are normal people like me.".

 

I forgot persecuting gays, treating women like 2nd class citizens, forced and arranged marrage, grooming gangs (in some cases) and failing to integrate with society (in a large number of cases) are normal things.

 

Can you imagine they had a show ‘my week as a gay man or white Christian in Riyadh (Saudi)‘ assuming they’d make it a week, of course.

[shurlock]

Technically she is half Arabic as her mother converted to Islam when she married her Dad. She's English but unfortunately passed away two years ago. My father in law met her at university when he came to study in the 70s but then Saddam took power, killed his parents and he was unable to return to Iraq. He believes he owes Britain everything because he lost everything including his ties and his money in Iraq and the opportunities in Britain allowed him to build a life for himself for which he is extremely grateful. Sadly, my wife has relatives who come from stricter backgrounds such as her cousin who is in her mid thirties and was refused permission to marry the person she loved because her parents did not approve and she will most likely end up childless and living alone rather like my father in law's new wife- an incredibly warm and kind practicing Muslim- who was essentially living the life of a hermit in Brighton because her family were ashamed that she had not married at an earlier age.

 

Sorry to hear that - before I saw your edit, I was going to say it was a pretty big deal to marry out in the 1970s, even for families who were politically liberal and only moderately observant.

 

Things have changed somewhat, though in perverse ways. I know a number of people who, today, haven't married out -not because of parental or community pressure but out of choice, out of some kitsch need to express their identity. They basically don't have a religious -let alone spiritual bone in their body yet have become much more observant. Another under-reported phenomenon is the number of professional British Muslim women in their 30s and 40s who are unmarried.

Edited 24 October, 2017 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

Sorry to hear that - before I saw your edit, I was going to say it was a pretty big deal to marry out in the 1970s, even for families who were politically liberal and only moderately observant.

 

Things have changed somewhat, though in perverse ways. I know a number of people who, today, haven't married out -not because of parental or community pressure but out of choice, out of some kitsch need to express their identity. They basically don't have a religious -let alone spiritual bone in their body yet have become much more observant. Another under-reported phenomenon is the number of professional British Muslim women in their 30s and 40s who are unmarried.

 

Oh absolutely and I believe my wife's Grandad- sadly also deceased now- had a big problem with it but over time had become very fond of my father in law.

 

It's possible that identity politics have had a role in the decline of marriage but I think it's also a product of modern society- we are more connected yet more remote than ever. It's yet another reason to encourage integration between races and religions because we need to overcome the prejudices and fear of the other in order to confront the real problems within certain cultures rather than invented grievances based purely on ignorance- and that's an issue from both sides.

 

Sadly that has been my experience with a number of middle aged Muslim women who are essentially left on their own since they are seen as shameful and without a purpose if they are unmarried after a certain age. I believe the statistics suggest that everyone is generally better off if people marry though regardless of religion or ethnicity and I would hope that this drive to not need anyone else in the modern world is reversed slightly.

[sadoldgit]

Sure, anti social behaviour can be found anywhere, like football stadiums... When I hear adolescents with a muslim background on Dutch television say that "the only good Jew is a dead Jew" I reckon it's a kind of anti social behaviour: they want to act tough in front of their peers, just like they do in the classrooms when their history teachers want to tell about the holocaust but are not allowed to: "it's all lies..." However, Dutch teachers also tell about toddlers putting their hands over their ears when they play a song in the classroom. Why? Because those little kids are told by their parents they are not allowed to listen to western music. I'm not talking about little kids from recent immigrants, these kids are the third generation of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants whose parents are born in the Netherlands. This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere, this is moronic cultural behaviour fueled by religious bull**** connected to islam. I know, within christianity there are those who don't watch telly on sunday because their God rested on the seventh day of the week or something like that but those morons at least keep their rules to themselves. When you read the survey I posted above you can read how widespread fundamentalism among muslims in Europe really is: "Almost 60 per cent agree that Muslims should return to the roots of Islam, 75 per cent think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick and 65 per cent say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Consistent fundamentalist beliefs, with agreement to all three statements, are found among 44 per cent of the interviewed Muslims." When you see the percentages on aversion against homosexuals or the idea the West wants to destroy islam, you'll get the picture about the problems islam is causing in Europe. I do not know if honour killings are directly related to islam and I doubt that even this religion tolerates a muslim beating up his wife (though there are Imams in British sharia councils who condone it...), fact is that women shelters in the Netherlands are bulging with female muslims who fear for their lives. And do you know what muslims are allowed to do with apostates? This is not the anti social behaviour you can find anywhere in the world, this is strictly related to islam... Shocking isn't it?

 

Don't get me wrong SOG, of course there are many muslims who do want to participate in Dutch society and overcome the many obstacles they have to face (there is discrimination on the job market for example). I can only respect them for their perseverance and I like to help them whenever possible. Alas it's still a minor group who are capable to succeed, usually the ones who are open minded and not lost in their religion and who do not see themselves as victims of society. I really hope things will change for the better and therefore I believe it's necessary to put a stop to immigration from muslim countries. At this moment 6 or 7 percent of the Dutch population is muslim and though you might think it's only a small amount, their impact on society (huge financial cost, ongoing cultural divide) is frightening. Like you said: there are people (like Wilders) who thrive on this and given the hatred we see nowadays, I believe things will really go wrong when the mass immigration keeps going on. Like a Dutch war reporter said: "we're importing the war from the Middle East and the chaos from Africa, this can't be justified."

 

Here we go again though VG. You say that you hear Muslim adolescents saying the only good Jew is a dead Jew but that comment isn't the sole preserve of Muslims is it? There are anti-Semites everywhere and from all different backgrounds. You also say that many are discriminated against and then mention that many behave as victims of society, it would seem with some justification then. You mention the concerns that people have about some Muslims and, of course, they are justified. But out of 1.8 billion Muslims, or whatever the current number is, do you really believe that the vast majority support ISIS, are homophobic, want all Jews dead etc.

 

You say that you think immigration should be stopped. Perhaps, if more of these immigrants come to live in Western societies they would, in time, become more liberal and grow to see their religion in a different way? I'll also ask a question. why should the onus just be on immigrants to assimilate into a new society and why should they change their habits just to fit it? Tolerance is a two way thing. In an ideal world we should try and meet halfway, but that isn't always possible. Perhaps we should stop being so sensitive about those who want to wear a burqa for example. Immigration has been going on from the beginning of time, for better or worse. The world is one big melting pot, and, mostly, all the better for it. Turning Muslims into the lepers of the world isn't the answer, just as it wasn't with the Jews in the 30s and 40s. Where it isn't working, we all need to work harder to improve the situation, not just the Muslims.