Sheaf Saint Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 No, not a single person has suggested that. Yes, it's incredibly frustrating when people don't fully read what you post and jump to false conclusions about what you mean, isn't it You disagree with John B's post, but are replying to me. Odd. This isn't about taking sides with you or John B. I agreed with you that his pronouncement was statistically incorrect, but I was just relaying that I believe he still raised an important point. Why can't you get your head around that? It's really very simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Right wing extremism is just as big a problem as Islamic extremism Yes, it's incredibly frustrating when people don't fully read what you post and jump to false conclusions about what you mean, isn't it This isn't about taking sides with you or John B. I agreed with you that his pronouncement was statistically incorrect, but I was just relaying that I believe he still raised an important point. Why can't you get your head around that? It's really very simple. Do you agree with his post or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 I agree but you can't pretend that white supremacist violence is in any way similar to Islamic terrorism in terms of numbers. I know. I didn't. All terrorism needs to be combated but people in general are more worried about Islamic extremism because it's a far higher occurrence and has resulted in many more deaths. I haven't seen many examples of white terrorist atrocities being under reported. Have you? There was a case of a Southampton man a couple of years ago who was arrested and convicted of preparing for terrorist acts. The case got only a very small mention in the national news... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11612542/Ginger-haired-extremist-Mark-Colborne-idolised-IRA-because-of-their-red-hair-court-hears.html If he had brown skin and was called Muhammed, it would probably have been all over the front pages of every tabloid. That's the point I'm making in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 I know. I didn't. There was a case of a Southampton man a couple of years ago who was arrested and convicted of preparing for terrorist acts. The case got only a very small mention in the national news... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11612542/Ginger-haired-extremist-Mark-Colborne-idolised-IRA-because-of-their-red-hair-court-hears.html If he had brown skin and was called Muhammed, it would probably have been all over the front pages of every tabloid. That's the point I'm making in that respect. OK so one incident of someone preparing terrorist acts. If memory serves me correctly there have been similar incidents of Muslims being arrested for preparing terrorist acts that haven't been that widely reported. For obvious reasons there tends to be more reporting of terrorist incidents that actually occur and clearly at the moment there are a higher number of these that are from Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Surely the problem is that whether it's Islamic or Right-Wing terrorism, one tends to breed the other. Doesn't really matter which one is statistically worse if we end up seeing an increase in both. The reason many people are at pains to defend Islam after attacks is because the perpetrators want our societies to be divisive, because it helps their cause. It doesn't mean it should all be swept under the carpet and made out like we don't have an issue of course, but it's too easy to point the finger and say "muslims again". In much the same way that it's easier to point the finger at benefit fraudsters as a defence for low taxes and scrapping the welfare state when a deeper analysis suggests inequality creates far greater problems for society at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Surely the problem is that whether it's Islamic or Right-Wing terrorism, one tends to breed the other. Doesn't really matter which one is statistically worse if we end up seeing an increase in both. Was 9/11 the result of right-wing terrorism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 19 June, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Its clearly, factually not. Two non surprises this morning. 1. Batman did not announce the news of this attack on here. 2. Sour Mash stands up for right wing extremism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 19 June, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Compare death tolls in the last ten years. How many people were slaughtered when Iraq was invaded on the premise of having weapons of mass destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 19 June, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Was 9/11 the result of right-wing terrorism? And look what has happened since. Please do not pretend that there is no cause and effect here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 I was wondering if Sour Mash might not be posting after the arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Was 9/11 the result of right-wing terrorism? Well I'm sure some would argue it was borne out of actions of the west, meddling in the middle east. But regardless of that, I'm saying that if we see an increase in both, or all, types of terrorism, it's worse for everyone. Sounds like you're more in favour of point scoring and "eye for an eye". Hardly the way forward for a supposedly civilised society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Well I'm sure some would argue it was borne out of actions of the west, meddling in the middle east. It probably was. Not right wing extremism - that's not and never has been the catalyst for Islamic terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 How many people were slaughtered when Iraq was invaded on the premise of having weapons of mass destruction? What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Sour Mash has racked up double digit posts - has he actually condemned the attack yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Still no Batman, very unusual for him to miss an opportunity to post random links to articles on terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Sour Mash has racked up double digit posts - has he actually condemned the attack yet? Why do I need to condemn the attack pal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Sour Mash has racked up double digit posts - has he actually expressed sympathy for the victims yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 It probably was. Not right wing extremism - that's not and never has been the catalyst for Islamic terrorism. Ok I see your point - but just because that example wasn't a response to right-wing extremism doesn't mean that the extremes don't fuel each other. It might not necessarily cause more terrorism directly (i.e. revenge attacks, though it could), but rather indirectly through increased recruitment, more support for extremists, or at the very least more apathy in muslim communities towards attacks. Obviously we would be better off living in a world with no organised religion whatsoever, but can't see that ever happening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 It probably was. Not right wing extremism - that's not and never has been the catalyst for Islamic terrorism. Actually the rise of right wing extremism in 1930s Germany cuased the accelerated growth of modern day Israel, which in turn sparked the various Arab-Israel wars and generally instability in the middle east which gave rise to Islamic extremism and terrorism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Ok I see your point - but just because that example wasn't a response to right-wing extremism doesn't mean that the extremes don't fuel each other. It might not necessarily cause more terrorism directly (i.e. revenge attacks, though it could), but rather indirectly through increased recruitment, more support for extremists, or at the very least more apathy in muslim communities towards attacks. Obviously we would be better off living in a world with no organised religion whatsoever, but can't see that ever happening... Give me an example then................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Why do I need to condemn the attack pal? You're always quick to express outrage over attacks against other innocents pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 You're always quick to express outrage over attacks against other innocents pal. No I'm not, attacks against innocent people happen every day. Brush up on the news pal. I assume you have condemned every muslim terrorist attack in the last year. I can't find the posts though, so stick the links up when you get the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 No I'm not, attacks against innocent people happen every day. Brush up on the news pal. I assume you have condemned every muslim terrorist attack in the last year. I can't find the posts though, so stick the links up when you get the chance. You just can't do it, can do you pal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Give me an example then................. An example of what? Increased recruitment? Muslim communities having more apathy towards terror attacks if they are themselves victims of hatred and attacks? Where would I find such examples, shall I contact ISIS head of HR and see if they have any official figures? It's pretty obvious to any clear thinking person that this would be a natural effect of our society ostracising Muslims, don't think any statistics are required to 'prove' such a thing. No doubt in future such figures will come to light if we are to go down such a path though. I am berating myself for even entering a discussion on this... there are 109 pages of evidence here why such an attempt would be futile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 No I'm not, attacks against innocent people happen every day. Brush up on the news pal. I assume you have condemned every muslim terrorist attack in the last year. I can't find the posts though, so stick the links up when you get the chance. Of course this attack should be condemned. That doesn't mean it's comparable to the numerous Islamic terrorist attacks we have seen over the last year but it's still an appalling attack that is only going to make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 An example of what? Increased recruitment? Muslim communities having more apathy towards terror attacks if they are themselves victims of hatred and attacks? Where would I find such examples, shall I contact ISIS head of HR and see if they have any official figures? It's pretty obvious to any clear thinking person that this would be a natural effect of our society ostracising Muslims, don't think any statistics are required to 'prove' such a thing. No doubt in future such figures will come to light if we are to go down such a path though. I am berating myself for even entering a discussion on this... there are 109 pages of evidence here why such an attempt would be futile! You didn't like my example as it disproved your point, I assumed you'd have loads of other examples to show you were right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 You just can't do it, can do you pal Agree, just can't find your posts of condemnation anywhere. Stick them up when you get the chance pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 it's still an appalling attack that is only going to make things worse. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Agree, just can't find your posts of condemnation anywhere. Stick them up when you get the chance pal. Then you're not looking hard enough - most recently I called the London Bridge attack 'disgusting'. I just happen to disagree with your halfwit kneejerkery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Then you're not looking hard enough - I called the London Bridge attack 'disgusting'. Why only that one? Surely you condemned them all equally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Why only that one? Surely you condemned them all equally? As I do. They're all disgusting. Do you find this attack disgusting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 As I do. They're all disgusting. Do you find this attack disgusting? Of course I do. Why do you find my feelings on the matter so interesting? I'll take it as a compliment though pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 You didn't like my example as it disproved your point, I assumed you'd have loads of other examples to show you were right? I said "Ok I see your point". Hardly evidence of "not liking" your example, in fact I was acknowledging I understood where you were coming from. My initial posts were more to do with thinking about what is likely (or merely just 'possible') to happen in the future rather than using examples to "prove I'm right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Right wing extremism is just as big a problem as Islamic extremism This is pretty much right. In the US, violent incidents of right wing extremism far outnumber those by Jihadists. According to a US congressional report just two months ago, between September 2001 and December 2016 there have been 23 fatal Islamist extremist attacks in the US, compared with 62 fatal far-right attacks. In Europe, a joint report by the Royal United Services Institute, Chatham House, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue and Leiden University examined 'lone wolf' attacks (which could include up to three co-conspirators) over the last 15 years. 38% were religiously inspired and 33% labelled right-wing extremists. In the 72 successfully launched attacks, 'religiously inspired attacks accounted for 8% of deaths. Far-right attacks were fewer in number but accounted for just under half of deaths. Given today's arrest, it's interesting that the report identified the typical far-right violent perpetrator as around 40 years old and as socially isolated. So 'just as big a problem' is a reasonable, approximately balanced statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/19/police-operation-way-champs-elysees-paris/ http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/paddington-man-carrying-weapon-arrested-outside-busy-central-london-train-station-a3568236.html Trying to play down the terrorist angle on these two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Sour Mash has racked up double digit posts - has he actually expressed sympathy for the victims yet? I no longer see them but sure they amount to short little questions on what is no doubt a big hard on day for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 (edited) So it is only a terrorist attack if a white person commits it... Diane Racist Abbott describes last night's attack as a terrorist attack, whilst London and Manchester were merely 'incidents' What is it with some lefties... Edited 19 June, 2017 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 So it is only a terrorist attack if a white person commits it... Diane Racist Abbott describes last night's attack as a terrorist attack, whilst London and Manchester were merely 'incidents' What is it with some lefties... TBF, that bloke in Finsbury Park did kill 743 people, that's more than double the number killed on 911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 TBF, that bloke in Finsbury Park did kill 743 people, that's more than double the number killed on 911. Oh my sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 Do you agree with his post or not? I don't know how many times I have to spell it out for you. In pure statistical terms, no I do not agree with him. But this is a very complex issue that cannot be reduced down to just numbers, unless you're some kind of simpleton. If you want to argue purely on these terms, then statistically speaking you are far more likely to be killed by a dog than by a terrorist attack. Do you believe that dogs are a bigger problem than Wahabi extremists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 I don't know how many times I have to spell it out for you. In pure statistical terms, no I do not agree with him. But this is a very complex issue that cannot be reduced down to just numbers, unless you're some kind of simpleton. If you want to argue purely on these terms, then statistically speaking you are far more likely to be killed by a dog than by a terrorist attack. Do you believe that dogs are a bigger problem than Wahabi extremists? So you don't agree with him and do agree with me, but are just trying your best not to admit it. Fair enough. How many people in the UK have been killed by dogs this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 19 June, 2017 Share Posted 19 June, 2017 A lot of dogs are proper ****s, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 June, 2017 Author Share Posted 20 June, 2017 What's your point? You don't think that there was any "terror" involved in Operation Desert Storm? Or was the whole "shock and awe" thing just a bit of a laugh? By the way, is your real name Tommy Robinson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 You don't think that there was any "terror" involved in Operation Desert Storm? Or was the whole "shock and awe" thing just a bit of a laugh? By the way, is your real name Tommy Robinson? That was a military operation, there was never any intention to harm civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 You don't think that there was any "terror" involved in Operation Desert Storm? Or was the whole "shock and awe" thing just a bit of a laugh? By the way, is your real name Tommy Robinson? No clearly Operation Desert Storm was not terrorism. Pretty sick that you think that comparable to someone deliberately blowing up innocent kids enjoying a pop concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 Yesterday Paris, today Brussels. Islamic terror a daily event now. But our home secretary's main concern is 'islamophobia'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 That was a military operation, there was never any intention to harm civilians. "collateral damage" you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 "collateral damage" you mean? Yes, depending on which war soggy is referring to; I assume he means operation Iraqi Freedom, not Desert Storm. Whether that war was justified is another subject and has been done to death but there is a clear moral difference between civilians being caught in crossfire and blowing yourself up at a pop concert full of teenage girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 there is a clear moral difference between civilians being caught in crossfire and blowing yourself up at a pop concert full of teenage girls. There isn't for sadoldgit and Jonnyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 20 June, 2017 Share Posted 20 June, 2017 Yes, depending on which war soggy is referring to; I assume he means operation Iraqi Freedom, not Desert Storm. Whether that war was justified is another subject and has been done to death but there is a clear moral difference between civilians being caught in crossfire and blowing yourself up at a pop concert full of teenage girls. I can accept that. Just as running over worshippers outside a mosque is sick. But Sour Mash wouldn't agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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