hypochondriac Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 It would be much better if they actually let him finish answering a question before moving to the next point. Who makes the decision that he's an ex-extremist...? agreed but then this is morning telly so probably not much time for an in depth discussion. I think he made some good points, certainly more nuanced than the likes of soggy on here who reject outright the notion that this has anything to do with Islam at all. I think the most productive conversations to be had are those that acknowledge that Islam is very much a part of this and discuss how it can be combatted by a number of parties. My suggestion is that a lot more needs to be done within the mosques themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) agreed but then this is morning telly so probably not much time for an in depth discussion. I think he made some good points, certainly more nuanced than the likes of soggy on here who reject outright the notion that this has anything to do with Islam at all. I think the most productive conversations to be had are those that acknowledge that Islam is very much a part of this and discuss how it can be combatted by a number of parties. My suggestion is that a lot more needs to be done within the mosques themselves. This is one area where the Muslim communities can help. They can bring the debate out into the open, without the oppressive left shutting down the conversation by screaming racists or bigots at every opportunity. If a Muslim links the terrorism to Islam, then it is an Islamic problem. Furthermore, us non-believers can't convince the brain washed that they are wrong. What do we know about their scriptures?? The religious leaders and elders within Islam, can. So muslims are part of the 'cure'. Agree with the lady about tackling the source and dealing with Saudi Arabia. Edited 25 May, 2017 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) Edit Edited 25 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) Adam Deen (Hakan Cerrah) I think he'd be delighted to be called a Muslim spokesman and scholar. Your metaphorical fan on the board who thinks he knows how to run a football club but in reality doesn't have a clue. Edited 25 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 Adam Deen (Hakan Cerrah) I think he'd be delighted to be called a Muslim spokesman and scholar. Your metaphorical fan on the board who thinks he knows how to run a football club but in reality doesn't have a clue. I didn't say he was, you donut. I said that only the elders and leaders could persuade the brain washed to change their views. Clearly a quiet day in the consulting world and may be the heat is getting to you, me old pedigree chum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 I didn't say he was, you donut. I said that only the elders and leaders could persuade the brain washed to change their views. Clearly a quiet day in the consulting world and may be the heat is getting to you, me old pedigree chum "If a Muslim links the terrorism to Islam, then it is an Islamic problem" in the context of the points he was making from a response which you highlighted in and from an interview you initially endorsed - yep nothing to do with him at all, Baldrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 "If a Muslim links the terrorism to Islam, then it is an Islamic problem" in the context of the points he was making from a response which you highlighted in and from an interview you initially endorsed - yep nothing to do with him at all, Baldrick My point regarding leaders and elders etc was a general point whereby the muslim community can help by trying to dissuade the vulnerable in their communities, because us non-muslims haven't got a hope of achieving this. But carry on arguing against a point that doesn't exist if it gives you something to do, me old pedigree chum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) My point regarding leaders and elders etc was a general point whereby the muslim community can help by trying to dissuade the vulnerable in their communities, because us non-muslims haven't got a hope of achieving this. But carry on arguing against a point that doesn't exist if it gives you something to do, me old pedigree chum. And what are they to say? You do realise that many of those who get caught up in extremism and violence are not just rejecting the laws of the land but also the views of elders and community leaders who are seen as soft and submissive. Edited 25 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 I think the most productive conversations to be had are those that acknowledge that Islam is very much a part of this and discuss how it can be combatted by a number of parties. My suggestion is that a lot more needs to be done within the mosques themselves. A awful lot of mosques and imams already do this, and it's usually ineffective. Unlike, say, Catholicism, Islam is a religion without leaders. There is no 'government' in the literal sense of something like the Vatican, and there is no Muslim equivalent of the Papal hierarchy. However, the Saudi government presides over the two most important sites in the religion, Mecca and Medina. As guardians, the Saudis have enormous moral authority. The Saudi government has frequently condemned Islamist terrorism, and has led many crackdowns against Al Qaeda and ISIS offshoots. But what they haven't done is say that the underlying ideology of the terrorists, Salafism, should be shunned. Without this active discouragement, Salafism will continue to flourish. It is an ideology that amounts to a death cult, but more especially fuels deeply corrosive psychosis of grievance - a hatred that's off the scale. (This is at least one point of contact with the Alt Left, who espouse the 'kill us, we deserve it' meme, by sneering that 'the West' is the first and final cause of Islamists' hatred). Salafism is, at its heart, a repudiation, not of the West, but of the tiniest perceived deviation from a brutally medieval interpretation of Islam. It is a cover for violent bullying, torture and murder - all justified in the name of 'cleansing' the religion of its inadequate believers. In the wake of that ideology lies an epic trail of dead and broken bodies. Will the Saudis repudiate Salafism? Of course not. The hate that threatens them is also the hate that protects them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 25 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 25 May, 2017 Why are you attempting to lump everyone in together? I wouldn't insult someone like moonraker by pretending your mad views are shared by him. Kindly don't do the same to me thanks. I know it suits your agenda and is easier for you to handle when you pretend that everyone who thinks there is an Islamic extremism problem in the UK that could at least partially be handled by the Islamic community is a racist by please try to understand that there is a wide spectrum of views on this issue, many which strongly disagree with you. I lump you in with the other two as you clearly have a problem with Muslims. Where have I ever said that anyone who suggests that Muslims should do more to combat extremism in their community is a racist. This is something which you have made up. But what do you expect people who haven't got a clue what is going on to do? If there was a murderer or a rapist in your town, is it your responsibility to go out and find him? I shall make this point again as you don't seem to be able to grasp it. The majority of peaceful Muslims in this country have got no more idea of planned terrorist attacks than you, Batman or Sour Mash, so, seriously, what are they supposed to do? Did you see the Muslims on TV recently say that this has absolutely nothing to do with them? How would you feel if every time one of these atrocities happened people expected you to assume responsibility and do something about it? You might dislike practising Muslims but you really need to get it into your head that they are not all responsible for the actions of a minority of deranged extremists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 The simple, indisputable fact is if we hadn't had mass muslim immigration we wouldn't have this problem now. People wanted muslim immigration, this is what we've got. That's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 25 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 25 May, 2017 Unbelievable. Of course the current situation has nothing to do with the West's foreign policy in the Middle East. If we hadn't have been invaded by Germanic peoples back in the Dark Ages perhaps we wouldn't have so many white xenophobes now? Anyway, judging by the complaints by some that Muslims communities are not doing enough to combat extremists themselves, I can only assume we have a number of people here who work for Special Branch or MI5? It is my understanding that the security forces like to keep these things quite so unless they have inside information, how would they know, eh Hypochondriac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 The simple, indisputable fact is if we hadn't had mass muslim immigration we wouldn't have this problem now. People wanted muslim immigration, this is what we've got. That's a fact. Is the wrong answer. Britain's Muslim population is under 3 million, or around 4.4% of the total population. From time to time, the country experiences Islamist violence, usually 'home grown'. India's Muslim population is around 172 million, or just over 14% of the total population - even though it's predominantly Hindu, it's the second largest Muslim country in the world. The country rarely experiences Islamist violence, and when it does, it is almost always rooted in activities across its borders with Pakistan. Terrorist attacks from Islamists is almost never 'home grown'. There is no correlation between Muslim population size and the incident of home-grown Islamist violence. Nor is there a correlation between 'multiculturalism' and Islamist violence. France pursues a diametrically opposite philosophy of a single national identity, and its rate of Islamist violence is higher than the UK's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 Unbelievable. Of course the current situation has nothing to do with the West's foreign policy in the Middle East. If we hadn't have been invaded by Germanic peoples back in the Dark Ages perhaps we wouldn't have so many white xenophobes now? Anyway, judging by the complaints by some that Muslims communities are not doing enough to combat extremists themselves, I can only assume we have a number of people here who work for Special Branch or MI5? It is my understanding that the security forces like to keep these things quite so unless they have inside information, how would they know, eh Hypochondriac? I guess Belgium must pay for tearing up the middle east in the last 15 years. Good point, well made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) Finished reading Gilles Kepel's Terror in France: The Rise of Jihad in the West. English translation came out last month. Good book, perhaps a bit too subtle for some. Review is here: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/03/24/how-the-french-face-terror/ Edited 25 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 Is the wrong answer. Britain's Muslim population is under 3 million, or around 4.4% of the total population. From time to time, the country experiences Islamist violence, usually 'home grown'. India's Muslim population is around 172 million, or just over 14% of the total population - even though it's predominantly Hindu, it's the second largest Muslim country in the world. The country rarely experiences Islamist violence, and when it does, it is almost always rooted in activities across its borders with Pakistan. Terrorist attacks from Islamists is almost never 'home grown'. There is no correlation between Muslim population size and the incident of home-grown Islamist violence. Nor is there a correlation between 'multiculturalism' and Islamist violence. France pursues a diametrically opposite philosophy of a single national identity, and its rate of Islamist violence is higher than the UK's. Wrong again. If we had not had any Islamic immigration, we would not have had a single Islamic terrorist attack. That's a fact. You think its a price worth paying, I do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 And what are they to say? You do realise that many of those who get caught up in extremism and violence are not just rejecting the laws of the land but also the views of elders and community leaders who are seen as soft and submissive. Well the parents have some influence... that was alluded to in the interview. At the end of the day, there is always more that can be done by govt, communities, families etc Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) Wrong again. If we had not had any Islamic immigration, we would not have had a single Islamic terrorist attack. And we woldn't have Adil Rashid and Moeen Khan playing for the England cricket team. Nor any of the Muslim doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and heaven alone knows how our corner shops might be different. Mind you, if we hadn't had any Polish immigration there might be more jobs for British plumbers. Something to think about post Brexit ? Edited 25 May, 2017 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 (edited) And we woldn't have Adil Rashid and Moeen Khan playing for the England cricket team. Nor any of the Muslim doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and heaven alone knows how our corner shops might be different. Mind you, if we hadn't had any Polish mmigration there might be more jobs for British plumbers. Something to think about post Brexit ? What we could do, is have some sort of immigration policy that screens people coming in and not alow someone with terror links come in and call it 'home' and raise his kids to hate everyone That is before we get on allowing known people waltzing to and from areas rife with Islamic state, without being picked up and before murdering kids But then, that will infringe on sort form of human right or something Edited 25 May, 2017 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 And we woldn't have Adil Rashid and Moeen Khan playing for the England cricket team. Nor any of the Muslim doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and heaven alone knows how our corner shops might be different. Mind you, if we hadn't had any Polish mmigration there might be more jobs for British plumbers. Something to think about post Brexit ? No way you're being serious now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 I lump you in with the other two as you clearly have a problem with Muslims. Where have I ever said that anyone who suggests that Muslims should do more to combat extremism in their community is a racist. This is something which you have made up. But what do you expect people who haven't got a clue what is going on to do? If there was a murderer or a rapist in your town, is it your responsibility to go out and find him? I shall make this point again as you don't seem to be able to grasp it. The majority of peaceful Muslims in this country have got no more idea of planned terrorist attacks than you, Batman or Sour Mash, so, seriously, what are they supposed to do? Did you see the Muslims on TV recently say that this has absolutely nothing to do with them? How would you feel if every time one of these atrocities happened people expected you to assume responsibility and do something about it? You might dislike practising Muslims but you really need to get it into your head that they are not all responsible for the actions of a minority of deranged extremists. I stopped reading when you said I have a problem with Muslims as frankly you are an idiot. The laughable thing is I married into a Muslim family and by your own admission you do not know any personally yet you act as if you are the spokesman for the Muslim population. You are the very definition of a virtue signalling leftie, safe in your leafy suburb whose views are aired simply to make yourself feel smug and superior to others. Frankly you and others of your ilk are part of the problem but thankfully you are a diminishing number as more people wake up to the problem and more practical solutions are offered. It's not about demonising all Muslims, it's about recognising that Islam is a part of the problem and discussing how various parties including Muslims can come together to tackle this issue. Burying your head in the sand does more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 I don't know how big a problem the immigration issue is. For me I do think there should be more initiatives working with mosques and more powers to investigate mosques that are suspecting of harbouring terror. Certainly the hate preachers like Abu hamza openly preaching hatred should have been dealt with much earlier than they were. There's clearly a middle ground between raiding all mosques and deporting all Muslims and what we currently do and hopefully some sensible initiatives can be worked out to reduce the likelihood of attacks in the future. An expert on five live earlier said the Tories should do more to work with more conservative imams rather than just the liberal ones and that sounds like a good start to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 I don't know how big a problem the immigration issue is. For me I do think there should be more initiatives working with mosques and more powers to investigate mosques that are suspecting of harbouring terror. Certainly the hate preachers like Abu hamza openly preaching hatred should have been dealt with much earlier than they were. There's clearly a middle ground between raiding all mosques and deporting all Muslims and what we currently do and hopefully some sensible initiatives can be worked out to reduce the likelihood of attacks in the future. An expert on five live earlier said the Tories should do more to work with more conservative imams rather than just the liberal ones and that sounds like a good start to me. You sound like you just want to talk to them #snowflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 You sound like you just want to talk to them #snowflake Really strange response. Many posters sneeringly asking for real suggestions about what can practically be done and when I offer something- whether you agree with it or not- your response is a sarcastic put down rather than a proper reply. With attitudes like that it's little wonder that the majority of the public have turned against the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 25 May, 2017 Share Posted 25 May, 2017 What we could do, is have some sort of immigration policy that screens people coming in and not alow someone with terror links come in and call it 'home' and raise his kids to hate everyone That is before we get on allowing known people waltzing to and from areas rife with Islamic state, without being picked up and before murdering kids Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 I think someone needs to alert the authorities about Sour Mash being at fault for this Terrorist event Meanwhile I'm here wondering If my Friend Martyn Hakan Hett, who was my hallmate in 1st year, and is now missing in Manchester, is dead or just unconscious. He spoke to me regarding the fact that due to his Ancestry and sexuality, he had received a lot of hate and threats of violence from 'Mainstream' Muslims. But hey ho, he was probably making it up and this whole thing is a massive hoax by him. If he has been murdered, his death is probably "ISIS's wet dream" given his outspoken and unapologetic stance towards his private and public life, not anything a poster on Saintsweb says in reaction to yet another religiously motivated mass murder. Sorry to hear about your friend mate. I know he was killed in the blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 The simple, indisputable fact is if we hadn't had mass muslim immigration we wouldn't have this problem now. People wanted muslim immigration, this is what we've got. That's a fact. We are where we are but you are right if we had not invaded Ireland and other countries like India/Pakistan and been pretty nasty there the past and not bombed Irag Afganistan and Libya we would not had so much terrorism in the UK you reap what you sow . As a country I think we are the second biggest arms exporter in the world so we do get involved with violence through out the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 And we woldn't have Adil Rashid and Moeen Khan playing for the England cricket team. Nor any of the Muslim doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and heaven alone knows how our corner shops might be different. Mind you, if we hadn't had any Polish immigration there might be more jobs for British plumbers. Something to think about post Brexit ? You're aware that most Arab gulf countries don't allow Christian immigration, or Sikh or Hindu or Buddhist etc. But their hospitals are still full of Christian, Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist doctors and nurses and cleaners and porters and...... Where does this fallacy that you have to give people the right to come and live in your country permanently, and bring their extended family with them, just because they come to study there, or work there for a few years. I am currently in the ME (not through choice). I have a 2 year work permit sponsored by my employer. That means if for any reason I lose my job I will be given 14 days to leave the country. It also means that if do anything a bit naughty, like for example being caught in posession of a pork sausage, I will be deported immediately. I'm not suggesting the UK should follow the Arab states. They are backward, racist and routinely practice blatant lawful (under local laws) discrimination. But there are alternative ways of having foreign workers without full-on open mass immigration. Unless you get all your information from reading newspapers (or SaintsWeb) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 Really strange response. Many posters sneeringly asking for real suggestions about what can practically be done and when I offer something- whether you agree with it or not- your response is a sarcastic put down rather than a proper reply. With attitudes like that it's little wonder that the majority of the public have turned against the left. That's Jonny for you. It's all about his one liners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 A couple of muslims (one a former extremist), linking the terrorism to Islam... Also a bit of an insight into the Saudi's input / salafists / wahhabism... A decent watch if you can stomach Piers Morgan for a few moments... I heard that Jasmin lady before and spoke sense. SOG and CEC could do well to listen to her to at least to get them out thinking they are on some self-righteous crusade against racists and bigots who acknowledge it is actually linked to Islam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 And just when I thought Corbyn was running a decent campaign he's going to come out and denounce our foreign policy for causing the attacks. TW AT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 You are the very definition of a virtue signalling leftie, safe in your leafy suburb whose views are aired simply to make yourself feel smug and superior to others. Frankly you and others of your ilk are part of the problem but thankfully you are a diminishing number...... Are they diminishing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 We are where we are but you are right if we had not invaded Ireland and other countries like India/Pakistan and been pretty nasty there the past and not bombed Irag Afganistan and Libya we would not had so much terrorism in the UK you reap what you sow . As a country I think we are the second biggest arms exporter in the world so we do get involved with violence through out the world You're clearly a bit of an apologist for terror, on a par with that loon Corbyn, but I'll try to humour you. What did we do in India to cause terrorism for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 Are they diminishing? You are right that there are a very high number all over social media (many of them celebrities like Katy Perry asking for no borders whilst living in a secure mansion separated from the outside world.) but I have heard some encouraging noises after this atrocity and I do think people are recognising that we are going through the same things on a monthly basis now and simply shrugging our shoulders and saying there is nothing we can do about Islamic terrorism is no longer an option. I compare the reaction of the Manchester attack to the Charlie Hebdo one and I can see a definite change of opinion in some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 And just when I thought Corbyn was running a decent campaign he's going to come out and denounce our foreign policy for causing the attacks. TW AT. Is he in denial of the fact that there has been perpetual conflict in the Middle East for centuries, much of it prior to the UK's 'intervention'? But maybe, he's got a point. Remember when Belgium went on their imperialistic crusade through the middle east... oh, wait a minute. Well, what about when British forces protected Muslims from being slaughtered by Christians in Kosovo? No, not that? Maybe it's our support for the mujahideen against Russian aggression. No? Ah, he must be referring to the Labour's illegal war in Iraq after no WMD were found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 We are where we are but you are right if we had not invaded Ireland and other countries like India/Pakistan and been pretty nasty there the past and not bombed Irag Afganistan and Libya we would not had so much terrorism in the UK you reap what you sow . As a country I think we are the second biggest arms exporter in the world so we do get involved with violence through out the world Does that mean we would be excused for going on a terror raid on france in retaliation for the Norman conquests? what those Germans, should be pay them back more for landing on the channel islands..? yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 Is he in denial of the fact that there has been perpetual conflict in the Middle East for centuries, much of it prior to the UK's 'intervention'? But maybe, he's got a point. Remember when Belgium went on their imperialistic crusade through the middle east... oh, wait a minute. Well, what about when British forces protected Muslims from being slaughtered by Christians in Kosovo? No, not that? Maybe it's our support for the mujahideen against Russian aggression. No? Ah, he must be referring to the Labour's illegal war in Iraq after no WMD were found? To be fair he probably is correct. Former MI5 chief Baroness Manningham-Buller told the Iraq Inquiry in 2010 that the 2003 invasion of Iraq had "undoubtedly increased" the terror threat to the UK and had radicalised "a few among a generation who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 To be fair he probably is correct. Former MI5 chief Baroness Manningham-Buller told the Iraq Inquiry in 2010 that the 2003 invasion of Iraq had "undoubtedly increased" the terror threat to the UK and had radicalised "a few among a generation who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam". but these attacks have nothing to do with Islam, so Soggy and various MPs suggest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 To be fair he probably is correct. Former MI5 chief Baroness Manningham-Buller told the Iraq Inquiry in 2010 that the 2003 invasion of Iraq had "undoubtedly increased" the terror threat to the UK and had radicalised "a few among a generation who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam". The grievance psychosis that drives the Islamist killers is more generalised. Think of the some of the most recent targets with the heaviest casualties. The Bataclan in Paris, during a music concert (130 dead). Manchester, during a pop concert (23 dead). Pulse, in Florida, a gay nightclub (49 dead). These are venues that were full of young people enjoying themselves - a HUGELY transgressive act in the eyes of a religious sect hell bent on viciously bullying people into cowed silence and retreat. They target venues like these with no thought about some vague concept of solidarity with other Muslims - in fact, MOST of their victims are actually fellow Muslims. So it's even more depressing, after Manchester, to hear people like Corbyn winding themselves up with their tedious 'kill us, we deserve it' speeches. He not only misses the point spectacularly; he manages to find one of several points of agreement with ISIS themselves. The Alt Left absolutely revel in the unspecified accusation that 'the West' is to blame for everything - an argument repeated ad nauseum by the ISIS media centre. Aside from everything else, this victim-blaming of the West is unintentionally racist - because it denies agency to Iraqi dictators or ISIS killers or Syrian death squads, who apparently only do unspeakable things because we made them do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 26 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 26 May, 2017 but these attacks have nothing to do with Islam, so Soggy and various MPs suggest And if you have been watching TV lately, many Muslims have denounced the extremists too and say it has nothing to do with them, but it suits your agenda to say that they are all responsible. You, Hypochondriac and Sour Mash make a nice little club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 (edited) And if you have been watching TV lately, many Muslims have denounced the extremists too and say it has nothing to do with them, but it suits your agenda to say that they are all responsible. You, Hypochondriac and Sour Mash make a nice little club. We make a nice little club in your own deluded mind because it's easier for you to process things that's way. It's really the mindset of a racist to lump everyone who thinks differently to you into one category. What you have also missed are other Muslims who have been in the media who believe it is very much to do with Islam. How do you explain them? I've never said all Muslims are terrorists by the way, that's just another lie to add to the litany you have already spouted throughout this thread. On a separate note, I see that well known Christian Katie Hopkins has proved she has much in common with that other Christian icon Adolf Hitler by calling for a final solution. That's just more evidence to definitively prove that Hopkins is indeed a holy figure in the faith. We can file the latest piece of evidence next to her claim that she was Jesus Christ and Hitler having a Christian belt buckle. Edited 26 May, 2017 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 The grievance psychosis that drives the Islamist killers is more generalised. Think of the some of the most recent targets with the heaviest casualties. The Bataclan in Paris, during a music concert (130 dead). Manchester, during a pop concert (23 dead). Pulse, in Florida, a gay nightclub (49 dead). These are venues that were full of young people enjoying themselves - a HUGELY transgressive act in the eyes of a religious sect hell bent on viciously bullying people into cowed silence and retreat. They target venues like these with no thought about some vague concept of solidarity with other Muslims - in fact, MOST of their victims are actually fellow Muslims. So it's even more depressing, after Manchester, to hear people like Corbyn winding themselves up with their tedious 'kill us, we deserve it' speeches. He not only misses the point spectacularly; he manages to find one of several points of agreement with ISIS themselves. The Alt Left absolutely revel in the unspecified accusation that 'the West' is to blame for everything - an argument repeated ad nauseum by the ISIS media centre. Aside from everything else, this victim-blaming of the West is unintentionally racist - because it denies agency to Iraqi dictators or ISIS killers or Syrian death squads, who apparently only do unspeakable things because we made them do it. I'm not saying that it is the main cause, just that it must play a part in making their gullible foot soldiers believe what they are doing is justified. Also the fact that our bombs kill innocents in Muslim countries gives ISIS the opportunity to claim that their cause is just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 Wrong again. If we had not had any Islamic immigration, we would not have had a single Islamic terrorist attack. That's a fact. You think its a price worth paying, I do not. So at what point in history do go back to to stop Islamic Immigration. Whilst there were muslims in England before the 18th century it was the openeing of the trade routes to India on a big scale and the British Empire that precipitated the first big influx of muslims, over 250 years ago, is this your starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 Wrong again. If we had not had any Islamic immigration, we would not have had a single Islamic terrorist attack. That's a fact. You think its a price worth paying, I do not. So at what point in history do go back to to stop Islamic Immigration. Whilst there were muslims in England before the 18th century it was the openeing of the trade routes to India on a big scale and the British Empire that precipitated the first big influx of muslims, over 250 years ago, is this your starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 (edited) I'm not saying that it is the main cause, just that it must play a part in making their gullible foot soldiers believe what they are doing is justified. Also the fact that our bombs kill innocents in Muslim countries gives ISIS the opportunity to claim that their cause is just. Verbal's rage against lefties is getting the better of him. There is a huge difference between stating that as a descriptive fact that ISIS and other jihadist terrorists use Western foreign policy -the belief that Muslims worldwide are victims of Islamophobia and neocolonialism as an effective propaganda and recruiting tool on the one hand and endorsing, sympathising with and even revelling in that justification, on the other. One does not imply the other. Edited 26 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 So at what point in history do go back to to stop Islamic Immigration. Whilst there were muslims in England before the 18th century it was the openeing of the trade routes to India on a big scale and the British Empire that precipitated the first big influx of muslims, over 250 years ago, is this your starting point. Before that. Elizabeth 1st was exercised about 'Blackamoors' in London. The Mayor ignored her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nta786 Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 the rich are protected by their security, the poor get warm words and prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 To the 'kill us, we deserve it' Stop the War acolytes, here, from the horse's mouth*, is the 'number one reason' given by ISIS for its hatred of the West: 'We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah - whether you realise it or not - by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices. It is for this reason that we were commanded to openly declare our hatred for you and our enmity towards you.' *From Dabiq 15, if you want to risk an MI5 file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 We are where we are but you are right if we had not invaded Ireland and other countries like India/Pakistan and been pretty nasty there the past and not bombed Irag Afganistan and Libya we would not had so much terrorism in the UK you reap what you sow . As a country I think we are the second biggest arms exporter in the world so we do get involved with violence through out the world And explain why christians are being massacred across the middle east? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2017 Share Posted 26 May, 2017 And explain why christians are being massacred across the middle east? murder in the Philippines. if only they stayed away from Iraq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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