sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 SOG, what you're arguing against is not so much a reasoned position but a feeling of rage. You're trying to make a finely drawn distinctions when the mood is one of "the religion itself is responsible". It's a hopeless argument but an understandable one, given the events in Paris, even if one or two of those saying this weren't already ludicrously addicted to knee-jerking. Here's another distinction that won't be appreciated by everyone, probably including you. The Koran is many things, but among them it is certainly a code of war. This is not surprising given the conditions from which it emerged. However, that code is not a lot different to a modern and relatively progressive code. It was applied by brilliant military tacticians like Saladin, who captured Jerusalem from the Crusaders in 1187 but who allowed Christian and Jewish practices and people to continue in the city under his protection. If Saladin were around today his views and actions would result in his beheading as an apostate by the nihilists in IS - if ever they had the wit to capture him. When they reach for justification for their genocidal killings, IS have little use for the Koran, with its inconvenient caveats about mercy, but for obscure and bloodthirsty Hadiths. But it doesn't really matter what document they claim to be acting on: they are a self-serving, blindly violent death cult. They exist to kill, to revel in the killing, and to profit from it. There isn't a lot more to them than that. The justifications they claim are worthless and idiotic, and discredit a horrified Muslim majority. Hi Verbal, perhaps we should help to distance them from that religion by calling them Daesh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 We have only just worn poppies in remembrance of some of the most barbaric wars in history perpetrated in the main by people who say they are Christians. Wars in which many tens of thousands of Muslim soldiers died fighting on our side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 im not sure what the point is in pointing out that christians in the dark ages were a bunch of savages? We were talking about one religion being violent. Many are violent at times and you don't have to look as far back as the middle ages to find Christians behaving savagely. It isn't exclusive to Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Hi Verbal, perhaps we should help to distance them from that religion by calling them Daesh? As do the majority of Muslims - and others - under their murderous thumb. This is all so sad. The events of the weekend remind me how immensely fond I am of France, and of Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Wars in which many tens of thousands of Muslim soldiers died fighting on our side. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 As do the majority of Muslims - and others - under their murderous thumb. This is all so sad. The events of the weekend remind me how immensely fond I am of France, and of Syria. You sound like you have spend a lot of time in the Middle East? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 We were talking about one religion being violent. Many are violent at times and you don't have to look as far back as the middle ages to find Christians behaving savagely. It isn't exclusive to Muslims. as far back? it was a 1000 years ago. I could not care less what happened 1000 years ago. Nothing..NOTHING that happened then justifies, makes up, compares or anything to what is happening now I care about what is happening now. unless of course, we should still be banging up germans for being Nazi's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 as far back? it was a 1000 years ago. I could not care less what happened 1000 years ago. Nothing..NOTHING that happened then justifies, makes up, compares or anything to what is happening now I care about what is happening now. unless of course, we should still be banging up germans for being Nazi's? The St Bartholomew's Day Massacre happened as recently as 1572 old boy ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 The St Bartholomew's Day Massacre happened as recently as 1572 old boy ... Ah, just a mere 500 years ago. Makes it all relevant today Was this before or after we thought we would fall off the edge of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Twitter? I'll give you that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Ah, just a mere 500 years ago. Makes it all relevant today As it happens I've been reading about the Punic Wars this week. So that earlier Paris Massacre counts as current affairs to me! It's all a matter of perspective you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 (edited) The St Bartholomew's Day Massacre happened as recently as 1572 old boy ... And, it was a 'Muslim' country that ran one of history's more successful experiments in religious pluralism under the Ottoman millet system. But I defer to the more learned experts on Islamic theology and history on here. Edited 16 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 as far back? it was a 1000 years ago. I could not care less what happened 1000 years ago. Nothing..NOTHING that happened then justifies, makes up, compares or anything to what is happening now I care about what is happening now. unless of course, we should still be banging up germans for being Nazi's? No, if you read what I say I said that you don't have to go back to the Middle Ages. Earlier I cited atrocities committed by Christian Americans in the Vietnam War - late 60 early 70s. There were plenty of atrocities committed by Christians against Christians in Northern Ireland in the 70s. And actually, what is wrong for bringing those NAZIs convicted of war crimes to justice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 After the Charlie Hebdo attack, a study found that 27% of British Muslims 'sympathised' with the terrorists and 10% believed it was right that the cartoonists were attacked. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam, but surely there is something seriously wrong with a religion that can produce such staggering statistics like that? If that attack had been carried out because Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at Jesus instead, would the number of British Christians polled have produced similar numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 as far back? it was a 1000 years ago. I could not care less what happened 1000 years ago. Nothing..NOTHING that happened then justifies, makes up, compares or anything to what is happening now I care about what is happening now. unless of course, we should still be banging up germans for being Nazi's? I think we're banging up Germans for being Christians. The Nazis were like, so Christian. "We will fight the fundamentalist Christians on the beach, we will fight the fundamentalist Christians on the landing grounds, we never surrender to the fundamentalist Christians what with them definitely being fundamentalist Christians and that being what defines them. Never in the field of human conflict has a war been like so much about religion like what this one is just like the crusades or something" Ah, Winston. Wise words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 After the Charlie Hebdo attack, a study found that 27% of British Muslims 'sympathised' with the terrorists and 10% believed it was right that the cartoonists were attacked. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam, but surely there is something seriously wrong with a religion that can produce such staggering statistics like that? If that attack had been carried out because Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at Jesus instead, would the number of British Christians polled have produced similar numbers? AS posted earlier http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2944946/Thousands-British-Muslims-protest-against-Charlie-Hebdo-magazine-publishing-cartoons-Prophet-Mohammed.html Plenty of Muslims clearly have a fair bit of sympathy for such views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 After the Charlie Hebdo attack, a study found that 27% of British Muslims 'sympathised' with the terrorists and 10% believed it was right that the cartoonists were attacked. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam, but surely there is something seriously wrong with a religion that can produce such staggering statistics like that? If that attack had been carried out because Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at Jesus instead, would the number of British Christians polled have produced similar numbers? So 73% didn't sympathise with the terrorists and 90% thought it was wrong to attack the cartoonists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 So 73% didn't sympathise with the terrorists and 90% thought it was wrong to attack the cartoonists? More than one in four sympathised and 10% of that group thought was right to attack them and you're trying to spin it the other way? How do you think those figures would index against the UK population as a whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I have a good friend who is Egyptian and a very well educated Arabic speaker. I asked him if there ever could be a solution to this problem and his answer was : "only if they rewrite the Quran" - he has been a scholar in his time and assures me that the words are explicit in a way which is seriously antagonistic to 'infidels' ! Obviously the extremists exploit this but a huge number of Muslims also believe this to be a fact, so hoping for support from the average 'peace loving' majority may well be a pipe dream ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 And, it was a 'Muslim' country that ran one of history's more successful experiments in religious pluralism under the Ottoman millet system. But I defer to the more learned experts on Islamic theology and history on here. Indeed. As anyone who has ever visited the Alhambra Palace will know the Islamic world was once perhaps the most advanced civilisation on Earth, and certainly way ahead of medieval Europe in many ways. Why exactly they not only failed to maintain that historical lead, but have seemingly regressed into the abysmal state so many Arab States are in today is a fascinating question that I would not even pretend to be capable of answering properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 More than one in four sympathised and 10% of that group thought was right to attack them and you're trying to spin it the other way? How do you think those figures would index against the UK population as a whole? I don't know. I am not the one spinning the figures here though am I? The majority of people in both cases are against the attack. Is that not correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 It's a backward, medieval culture. Most of the developed world don't even believe in religion anymore thankfully. Why don't you tell us all about the modern, forward thinking, progressive Islamic culture we have been blessed with over these last few years? Really? you think religion plays no part in the US? Religion isn't important in Israel? The last estimate was 300 million eastern orthodox church members in the world. There are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world 277 million in Europe alone....you really think people in the developed world don't believe in religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 So 73% didn't sympathise with the terrorists and 90% thought it was wrong to attack the cartoonists? 10% is a ****ing lot of people who think it's OK to attack cartoonists for drawing a picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I don't know. I am not the one spinning the figures here though am I? The majority of people in both cases are against the attack. Is that not correct? Yes you are. One in ten is a huge number. You are the one spinning the figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 (edited) More than one in four sympathised and 10% of that group thought was right to attack them and you're trying to spin it the other way? How do you think those figures would index against the UK population as a whole? There is this (which is utterly baffling): https://www.rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/ Albeit it was conducted in July 2014, though by then ISIS were far from shrinking violets, responsible for some truly barbaric acts. All of which to say is that survey questions need to be framed very carefully since terms such as 'sympathy' have a huge penumbra of uncertainty around them and can be interpreted in very different ways. Edited 16 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I dont have a problem with military intelligence under any circumstances nor current governments spying on the general population. The problem is that, as Doddisalegend said, once you have given up hard won liberties they are pretty much gone for good and the bulwarks which protect us from a totalitarian regime who would want to wipe out all opposition are weakened. Well I'm glad someone understood what I'm getting at. Batman seems to think I'm worried about the government finding out I had look a big tiittes.com or something yet while I find the idea of the government spying on me uncomfortable it pales into insignificance compared to his suggestions of restricting peoples freedom of movement or right to free speech or even detention without trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 You are an intelligent man CB Fry I believe. You will know that there are certain ways of presenting stats to get a certain response. If the post had said that 73% of Muslims polled were against the terrorists and 90% were against the attack on Charlie H do you think it would have had the same effect? I have not put any spin on the figures at all. They are as they stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Yes you are. One in ten is a huge number. You are the one spinning the figures. Oh and even with my rudimentary maths, 9 in 10 is a much huger number than 1 in 10 n'est pas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 You are an intelligent man CB Fry ... You've gone too far now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 You've gone too far now! CBF is a woman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 10% is a ****ing lot of people who think it's OK to attack cartoonists for drawing a picture. And 90% is a much, much bigger number of people who disapprove. I spoke to a number of Christians and some atheists after the attack who also think that the cartoonists went too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Bosnia fans disruptive throughout the minutes silence before the game in Dublin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 There is this (which is utterly baffling): https://www.rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/ Albeit it was conducted in July 2014, though by then ISIS were far from shrinking violets, responsible for some truly barbaric acts. All of which to say is that survey questions need to be framed very carefully since terms such as 'sympathy' have a huge penumbra of uncertainty around them and can be interpreted in very different ways. Indeed odd. Agree about the framing of questions and happy to look askance at many surveys. But still maintain that to pretend that one in ten is anything other than a huge proportion when answering that particular question is bonkers even by SOG's particularly bonkers standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 After the Charlie Hebdo attack, a study found that 27% of British Muslims 'sympathised' with the terrorists and 10% believed it was right that the cartoonists were attacked. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam, but surely there is something seriously wrong with a religion that can produce such staggering statistics like that? If that attack had been carried out because Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at Jesus instead, would the number of British Christians polled have produced similar numbers? The same poll, of 1000 people by COMRES, shows 95% show a loyalty to Britain, and 93% say that Muslims should always obey British law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I think it means God Is With Us I was alluding to Godwin's Law. (I know my Kraut Sprache ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 ... But still maintain that to pretend that one in ten is anything other than a huge proportion when answering that particular question is bonkers even by SOG's particularly bonkers standard. So in conclusion then. According to you 1 in 7 LGBT people experiencing some form of 'hate crime' incident every year signifies that no very significant homophobia problem exists in society. On the other hand, you do feel that 1 in 10 Muslims expressing an opinion amounts to a ''huge proportion''. Never mind CB - afterall they do say that consistency is a overrated virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I think this is the Comres survey in question http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/BBC-Today-Programme_British-Muslims-Poll_FINAL-Tables_Feb2015.pdf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 So 73% didn't sympathise with the terrorists and 90% thought it was wrong to attack the cartoonists? Neither of those figures are anywhere near close to being high enough I'm afraid, even if they are the majority. I'm genuinely interested in what you would think the results would be if British Christians had been polled after Jesus had been mocked and a similar attack had occurred? As both religions are as violent and bad as each other presumably you think the figures would be roughly the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 So in conclusion then. According to you 1 in 7 LGBT people experiencing some form of 'hate crime' incident every year signifies that no very significant homophobia problem exists in society. On the other hand, you do feel that 1 in 10 Muslims expressing an opinion amounts to a ''huge proportion''. Never mind CB - afterall they do say that consistency is a overrated virtue. [emoji38] If you can, quote me where I have said "no significant homophobia problem exists in society" with reference to that survey or in fact on any post on any thread in the history of this forum. Show me. As ever, consistent as the sun rising in the sky, you make sh it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 If you can, quote me where I have said "no significant homophobia problem exists in society" with reference to that survey or in fact on any post on any thread in the history of this forum. Show me. As ever, consistent as the sun rising in the sky, you make sh it up. I see. So you DO now think that Homophobia is a significant problem and 50 odd posts attacking people who said that the other day was some kind of mistake? Praise be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 I see. So you DO now think that Homophobia is a significant problem and 50 odd posts attacking people who said that the other day was some kind of mistake? Praise be! Do "now"? Sorry, still in a dreamworld, you have no idea what I think. Apologise for lying about me any time you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Do "now"? Sorry, still in a dreamworld, you have no idea what I think. Apologise for lying about me any time you like. Now come on my friendly - I've never called you a liar have I. A hypocrite however ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Now come on my friendly - I've never called you a liar have I. A hypocrite however ... That's because I don't lie. You, consistently, are full of it. Well done on dredging up a completely different thread on this one. Classy stuff. Hats off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 That's because I don't lie. You, consistently, are full of it. Well done on dredging up a completely different thread on this one. Classy stuff. Hats off. You seem so very desperate to have a little 'pop' at me CB the only polite response is to oblige you I suppose. If the game gets too rough for you again ... well then you should play somewhere else old chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 You seem so very desperate to have a little 'pop' at me CB the only polite response is to oblige you I suppose. If the game gets too rough for you again ... well then you should play somewhere else old chap. I thought all this dredging up other threads and arguing in the gutter with the riff raff was beneath you? I thought it was disrespectful to those who died in Paris and an insult to their memory? You hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news/john-pilger-the-root-causes-of-terrorism-and-what-we-can-do-about-it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 You seem so very desperate to have a little 'pop' at me CB the only polite response is to oblige you I suppose. If the game gets too rough for you again ... well then you should play somewhere else old chap. I think you'll find you waded in against me a few posts up (post 486) replying to a post that was nothing to do with you and didn't mention you. More lies, stay classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Neither of those figures are anywhere near close to being high enough I'm afraid, even if they are the majority. I'm genuinely interested in what you would think the results would be if British Christians had been polled after Jesus had been mocked and a similar attack had occurred? As both religions are as violent and bad as each other presumably you think the figures would be roughly the same? What exactly were the questions and how were they framed? They might not be high enough for you but in a stats world I would say that they were quite conclusive. We elect people to run a country with less votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 The same poll, of 1000 people by COMRES, shows 95% show a loyalty to Britain, and 93% say that Muslims should always obey British law. Or 5% are disloyal and 7% say that they should not obey British Law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Neither of those figures are anywhere near close to being high enough I'm afraid, even if they are the majority. I'm genuinely interested in what you would think the results would be if British Christians had been polled after Jesus had been mocked and a similar attack had occurred? As both religions are as violent and bad as each other presumably you think the figures would be roughly the same? Are the figures from the same survey showing loyalty to Britain and obeying British law high enough? If you feel that Christianity can claim a higher moral ground since its conception that's fine if that is what you think. As you know, we have a completely different culture and are happy to laugh at ourselves and religions, as the French do. Of course the poll would be different but it is interesting that a cross section of people I spoke to without any agendas felt that the Charlie Hebdo had gone too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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