Do people really think we've got a stronger squad than last year/the year before?

[Wes Tender]

Do you seriously think that Spurs fans are all just pretending to think that Pochettino is a good manager and Alderweireld is a good defender purely to spite little old Saints?

 

Incidentally I find that Liverpool fans are far more arrogant with the players that we've sold to them. Rather than admit we've done them over and have run off to the bank laughing, I constantly hear them insist that they're 'Southampton-level players' etc.

 

Sorry that you did not recognise Fry's post for what it was; his usual supercilious and sarcastic attempt at a put-down.

 

I was talking about Spurs' dealings with us, but in a vain attempt to appear clever, he somehow thought that my post encompassed Liverpool too.

 

When these sorts of transactions work out reasonably well, the club management get the plaudits. When they work out less well, the management get the brickbats and seek scapegoats, as at Liverpool.

 

Fans generally view their own teams' players through rose-tinted glasses, so it is not surprising that the majority on here including me, take the view that we have a stronger squad (but maybe a slightly weaker first team without Schneiderlin). These rose-tinted glasses also make it difficult for fans to admit that they have been taken for patsies when buying another team's players. In the case of Liverpool it was apparent to most people that we had seen them off, so it is difficult for them to put a brave face on it and Rodgers' stock fell as result.

[View From The Top]

lets wait and see what a good manager can do with lallana, clyne etc

I do not think getting £37m for Clyne and lallana is anything like 'laughing to the bank'

 

Clyne was the going rate but Lallana, well, is he worth the same now? No 'kin way.

[CB Fry]

Sorry that you did not recognise Fry's post for what it was; his usual supercilious and sarcastic attempt at a put-down.

 

I was talking about Spurs' dealings with us, but in a vain attempt to appear clever, he somehow thought that my post encompassed Liverpool too.

 

When these sorts of transactions work out reasonably well, the club management get the plaudits. When they work out less well, the management get the brickbats and seek scapegoats, as at Liverpool.

 

Fans generally view their own teams' players through rose-tinted glasses, so it is not surprising that the majority on here including me, take the view that we have a stronger squad (but maybe a slightly weaker first team without Schneiderlin). These rose-tinted glasses also make it difficult for fans to admit that they have been taken for patsies when buying another team's players. In the case of Liverpool it was apparent to most people that we had seen them off, so it is difficult for them to put a brave face on it and Rodgers' stock fell as result.

What you said was this:

 

Of course they'll say he's brilliant, just as they would claim that Pochettino is a better manager than Koeman and that they have a better team than us. They will hardly admit that the manager and the player that they got from us were poor decisions.

 

.

 

Why on earth would Spurs fans "hardly admit that the manager they got from us were poor decisions"?

 

Spurs fans say they thing their manager is good and their centre back is good because they are good. Nothing to do with "hardly admitting" anything.

 

If Pochettino and Toby were sh it they'd "accept" that just like any fans of any club.

[eelpie]

I don't think van diyk is better than Toby. Toby brilliant defender and Spurs fans saying he's brilliant. Van diyk got to learn defensively to he's that good IMO,

 

Agree. And Spurs defensive record supports this, even discounting our first few matches. Though Van D is very good and has terrific potential.

Otherwise I think 5string has summed up well.

[5string]

Agree. And Spurs defensive record supports this, even discounting our first few matches. Though Van D is very good and has terrific potential.

Otherwise I think 5string has summed up well.

 

Why thank you, kind eelpie. May you find your paddle soon...

 

My judgement re VvD is based on his apparent greater attacking ability (and desire to attack?), even though I think Toby was overall a better defender last year than VvD has been so far this year. Not much in it, though. And time yet for van Dijk to improve, which is a real positive.

[Wes Tender]

 

Why on earth would Spurs fans "hardly admit that the manager they got from us were poor decisions"?

 

Spurs fans say they thing their manager is good and their centre back is good because they are good. Nothing to do with "hardly admitting" anything.

 

If Pochettino and Toby were sh it they'd "accept" that just like any fans of any club.

 

Please see my observation that fans generally view their managers and players through rose-tinted glasses and view the comments in that context. Also bear in mind that Spurs' supporters' expectations are higher than ours are. My in-laws family are Spurs supporters and were unhappy with how they did last season and recognise the part that Kane played in them getting to where they ended up. In an unguarded moment, there was even grudging respect at how we seem capable of replacing players and managers who depart with such good alternatives.

[shurlock]

Please see my observation that fans generally view their managers and players through rose-tinted glasses and view the comments in that context. Also bear in mind that Spurs' supporters' expectations are higher than ours are. My in-laws family are Spurs supporters and were unhappy with how they did last season and recognise the part that Kane hiplayed in them getting to where they ended up. In an unguarded moment, there was even grudging respect at how we seem capable of replacing players and managers who depart with such good alternatives.

 

Les, speak for yourself, my rose-tinted, white-washing friend.

 

FWIW, I know quite a few spurs fans who were looking to find fault with MP and Toby, in part, because they thought they should be attracting bigger names than the cream of provincial southampton - a function of their higher expectations.

 

There's no universal law that says fans will put their own on a pedestal. Rather, it probably says more about your own sweet, little biases. Which, kind of, explains your schizophrenic attitude towards current and past players.

Edited 4 November, 2015 by shurlock

[whelk]

Didn't our form drop off badly the last two seasons around late November early December? Not necessarily linked to squad depth and more gittish fixtures maybe.

[whelk]

I realised I could answer my own question........yes

 

 

[CB Fry]

Please see my observation that fans generally view their managers and players through rose-tinted glasses and view the comments in that context. Also bear in mind that Spurs' supporters' expectations are higher than ours are. My in-laws family are Spurs supporters and were unhappy with how they did last season and recognise the part that Kane played in them getting to where they ended up. In an unguarded moment, there was even grudging respect at how we seem capable of replacing players and managers who depart with such good alternatives.

 

Please see the universal "observation" that football fans tend to be the fiercest critics of their own players, or have you failed to notice the slagging off by some in the ground and on here of Tadic/Mane/Cedric/Yoshi/JWP/Davis/pretty much any player you could ever care to name in the history of our club. Spurs fans, West Ham, S****horpe, St Mirren fans would be no different. No fans say they think a player is excellent just because they would "hardly admit" the opposite to a fan of the club they bought him from. No fans do that. It's nonsense and you know it.

 

Also if, as you say, Spurs fans have higher expectations than us, then they'd have higher standards than us and would expect better than us, so I'd anything more likely to slag off poor players and management, which they do, and have done throughout my entire lifetime.

 

Spurs fans saying Toby and Poch are "excellent" or "good" say that because that's what they think, rose tinted or not, and not, ever, because they would "hardly admit" the opposite to the club they signed them from.

 

You need to work on your "observations", as usual.

[doddisalegend]

Please see the universal "observation" that football fans tend to be the fiercest critics of their own players, or have you failed to notice the slagging off by some in the ground and on here of Tadic/Mane/Cedric/Yoshi/JWP/Davis/pretty much any player you could ever care to name in the history of our club. Spurs fans, West Ham, S****horpe, St Mirren fans would be no different. No fans say they think a player is excellent just because they would "hardly admit" the opposite to a fan of the club they bought him from. No fans do that. It's nonsense and you know it.

Also if, as you say, Spurs fans have higher expectations than us, then they'd have higher standards than us and would expect better than us, so I'd anything more likely to slag off poor players and management, which they do, and have done throughout my entire lifetime.

 

Spurs fans saying Toby and Poch are "excellent" or "good" say that because that's what they think, rose tinted or not, and not, ever, because they would "hardly admit" the opposite to the club they signed them from.

 

You need to work on your "observations", as usual.

 

I work with a couple of Liverpool fans who can't wait to tell me how Southampton sold them a load of crap in Lambert, Lallana, Clyne and most especially Lovern pretty much from the day they were sold.

[CB Fry]

I work with a couple of Liverpool fans who can't wait to tell me how Southampton sold them a load of crap in Lambert, Lallana, Clyne and most especially Lovern pretty much from the day they were sold.

Yep, standard. I work with a genuine not-plastic scouser and he talks about us mugging them for well over a year. He is starting to accept that Clyne is excellent though.

[Fan The Flames]

My observation is that even a **** can occasionally be right.

[Wes Tender]

Les, speak for yourself, my rose-tinted, white-washing friend.

 

FWIW, I know quite a few spurs fans who were looking to find fault with MP and Toby, in part, because they thought they should be attracting bigger names than the cream of provincial southampton - a function of their higher expectations.

 

Shylock, you would have thought that they would have learnt from the benefit of their experience that little old provincial Southampton were capable of producing players like Bale, Walcott, Oxlade Chamberlain (although the last two being Arsenal players they will probably think that they are crap) and their manager wished to buy Rodriguez and Wanyama. Those fans you speak of must have a pretty poor opinion of Poch wanting to buy these players from little old us.

 

No universal law, just human nature to defend one's own club and players when a rival attacks them verbally. Despite your amateur attempts at psychological diagnosis, my attitude towards current and past players has consistently been that we are unable to stop them leaving for the glory clubs, but generally we get over-inflated prices for them and replace them with players usually as good as them, for much less money. This is also what several articles in the more rose-tinted, whitewashing media have said.

[sadoldgit]

Is it better to have a stronger 1st X1 than a stronger squad? Personally I would go for a stronger squad. Having a weak bench cost us a few league places last year. We have better options now which should prove positive over the season. Still weak at keeper level and need JRod to pick up the pace, but overall, cant complain about depth this year.

[View From The Top]

Yep, standard. I work with a genuine not-plastic scouser and he talks about us mugging them for well over a year. He is starting to accept that Clyne is excellent though.

 

I work with a couple of Anfield ST holders. They accept with good grace that we pulled their pants down regarding last seasons sales. They think they got a fair deal with Clyne and I'd agree that they did.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Is it better to have a stronger 1st X1 than a stronger squad? Personally I would go for a stronger squad. Having a weak bench cost us a few league places last year. We have better options now which should prove positive over the season. Still weak at keeper level and need JRod to pick up the pace, but overall, cant complain about depth this year.

 

I think it's hard to determine which is best. I suspect a stronger first team but weaker squad will likely yield a similar league position to a weaker first team but stronger squad, but there are so many variables at play it will be very hard to prove the reasons either why it did or did not happen at the end of the season. It does seem logical to have a bigger squad given the number of games we were expecting to have at the start of the season. Of course, the six (at least) less Europa league games put a dent into that strategy but by then we were already committed.

 

The key for me is ensuring the depth we have isn't at the cost of an emerging young talent.

[CB Fry]

Shylock, you would have thought that they would have learnt from the benefit of their experience that little old provincial Southampton were capable of producing players like Bale, Walcott, Oxlade Chamberlain (although the last two being Arsenal players they will probably think that they are crap) and their manager wished to buy Rodriguez and Wanyama. Those fans you speak of must have a pretty poor opinion of Poch wanting to buy these players from little old us.

 

No universal law, just human nature to defend one's own club and players when a rival attacks them verbally.

 

Except the Spurs fans saying Toby is "excellent" as in the original post weren't being verbally attacked by rivals. They just think he is excellent.

 

And the fans that Shurlock referring to it sounds like do have a poor opinion of Poch for buying Saints players. It's kinda what he said in his post.

[david in sweden]

you can't expect to lose half-a-dozen of your top players in a year and find immediate " cloned " replacements, it takes time for new people to adapt.

......enough has been written about the 2014 defectors, but Clyne had 3 seasons with Saints and Schneiderlin an amazing 7 seasons.(?) Not easy to replace overnight.

 

of the newest crop......(although you can't honestly compare SPL with EPL)..Virgil van Dijk seems to have made the most positive impact.

Cedric looked a fish out of water in the beginning (as did Clyne as I recall), but improves in every game. That facial injury didn't keep him out three weeks either.

Romeu hasn't had much game time, but improves when he makes it through a match without a yellow card. He's " hard man type " and will adjust - in time.

Stekelenburg is no disappointment for me (despite his Fulham history). I'd sign him permanently, and have two international goalies - Gazzaniga still frightens me.

Juanmi still has a lot to learn but shows enthusiasm and a bit of talent, but too little game time to prove it.

Martina is a " tried and yet unproven " resource (from Erwin's past, I'm sure) and not real Prem. standard, but may well DAJFU in emergencies.

Clasie hasn't had a string of games yet - and may not play many 90 mins. until New Year, but clearly has talent and will eventually settle.

Caulker DAJFU --when needed--but we still have Gardos on the mend -- but I can't see Caulker being permanent unless he shows himself to be better than Yoshida.

 

Of the current squad...Stephen Davis seems (to me) to be playing as well as he's ever done, and a few more goals will only concrete his role in the team.

I'm gonna be criticised for this one, but few people would deny that Wanyama isn't a real asset to the team and the nearest to a rampant elephant in midfield, but I seem to note a 5 yellows and a red by November:scared: might indicate a bit of panic / desperation in his performances. I wonder if his "head " really is still at SMS?

I certainly wouldn't leave a fit Wanyama out of any game, but after playing so well last season, I'm a bit disappointed so far.

 

IMHO - Pelle looks even better than last season, and a fit Tadic, and an on-form Mané could take any defence in the Prem. and with better luck they'll be many more goals.

 

Those " defectors " are history, but our present bench looks stronger than it ever has...no wonder the U21 lads find it hard to get a place, let alone selected to start.

[Saint_Tony]

I think we are playing as well, it's not so much that we have a stronger squad. We had a bit of luck last season and to get the same points total again isn' t realistic. Important to remember Mane was **** until christmas last season, and Pelle went missing for half a season. This season the front 3 have been playing well, Van Dijk is a great Toby replacement, and Romeu and Clasie are decent options for the DM role. If anything, it' s better we started poorly, as it has helped the team work on errors, and it saves any delusional talk of a 4th place finish like we had last year. We have a reasonable run if fixtures and should be in the mix for a top 8 finish. The cups must be the priority though.

 

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[david in sweden]

I realised I could answer my own question........yes

 

 

 

good stats. Whelk, but (as usual) stats. don't always show the whole story do they?

 

in 2013-14.....despite a fair start, Boruc was out for 7 games after defeat at Chelsea, and Steven Davis, Clyne, Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Shaw and S.Davis (again)

were out injured / absent in successive games, and there was no real cover available.

We didn't always play badly, but even with 77 % possession and 21 shots to 6 .....still contrived to lose 2-3 v.Villa at SMS. Game 17 was the last game for Osvaldo.

 

season 2014-15....deja vu with S.Davis, Alderweireld, Schneiderlin, Cork and Davis (again) out in a series of injury-hit games against; Man C. Arsenal,

Man Utd and that disasterous game at Burnley where we were hopeless. Once again - no real experience on the bench, and not good for the unfortunate Academy lads who were expected to fill the gap.

 

Hopefully, we won't suffer the same fate this season, especially as we have;Man.City, Tottenham, Arsenal and West Ham - all before New Year.

With Jay Rod and Long still out we must hope that we avoid any more similar injury crises.

[Genk]

I don't think van diyk is better than Toby. Toby brilliant defender and Spurs fans saying he's brilliant. Van diyk got to learn defensively to he's that good IMO,

 

Utter rubbish. Virgil is a complete player. He has pace which Toby lacked. He doesn't have gammy hamstrings like Toby. Yes in the first few games Virgil looked suspect defensively but I'm certain that was adapting to the PL.

 

He has been outstanding in the past 4 or 5 games and is a much more dangerous from set pieces. Van Dijk any day in my opinion, Roger.

[Roger]

Utter rubbish. Virgil is a complete player. He has pace which Toby lacked. He doesn't have gammy hamstrings like Toby. Yes in the first few games Virgil looked suspect defensively but I'm certain that was adapting to the PL.

 

He has been outstanding in the past 4 or 5 games and is a much more dangerous from set pieces. Van Dijk any day in my opinion, Roger.

 

Take you're rose tinted glasses off. Spurs defence as good as anyone at mo. Toby was quick too. I like van diyk and he can be better but Toby is immense.

[Wes Tender]

We had a bit of luck last season and to get the same points total again isn't realistic.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

Why isn't it? It seems that you deny the possibility that we might have any luck this season too. Also you go on to list a series of factors justifying why we might be in a better position than last year, which seems at odds with your opinion that it is unrealistic to expect the same points haul as last season. A series of injuries to key players last season derailed our progress, but we do have more depth to the squad this season, which could turn out to make a significant difference. It rather depends on who gets injured though, as some players absent would affect us more than others.

[david in sweden]

Didn't our form drop off badly[/b] the last two seasons around late November early December?

 

Not necessarily linked to squad depth and more gittish fixtures maybe.

 

1) yes - but it also coincided with a number of key injuries that spolit the team formation, and there was no real quality on the bench.

 

2) yes again. Early season we had some " softer " fixtures and played exceptionally well, later on we had the more challenging games and felt the effects of (1).

[SaintBobby]

In a probably futile attempt to get this thread back on topic, I want to argue that we arguably now have a stronger squad than last season.

 

Not much in it between Forster and Stekelenburg. Maybe Forster is a bit better, but there isn't a huge amount in it.

 

I'd prefer to have van Dijk than Alderweireld. I also think Yoshida looks better this season than last. Hard to make a definitive judgement on Caulker, but he gives us better depth. Soares isn't as good as Clyne, of course, but looks like he's now settling in. Bertrand has got better and better over the last year. Targett may never be a first choice, first team Saints player, but he is surely better as cover at left back than he was a year ago.

 

In midfield, it was always going to be difficult to replace Schneiderlin. I'd prefer to have Morgan than either one of Clasie and Romeu, but we now have BOTH Clasie and Romeu. Sure, the rules of association football sadly don't allow us to play two new players in place of one departing player, but again the depth is much better. We can cope much better this year with an injury or a suspension to a defensive midfielder. Last season when either Victor or Morgan were out, I feared we were much weaker (especially after Cork's departure). Now, if we can't field Wanyama or Clasie, I think we are only slightly weaker.

 

Steve Davis seems to be a better player than last year (is this just form/confidence or has he found his role?) The front three of Tadic, Mane and Pelle are clicking together brilliantly. This time last year, some fans were saying Mane was a League One player. It now seems close to unanimous that he's a £30m player. Tadic started last season brilliantly but then faded. He now seems way more consistent. Pelle remains very consistent. Although it's been stop-start, we hopefully still have Rodriguez to come back and play a role. Hell, even Gaston Ramirez seems to have re-emerged as a half useful squad player.

 

I might still be persuaded that our best XI from last season is a little better than our best XI from this season. But you can't play your best XI in every game. In fact, it's quite rare to be able to field your best XI in any single match, there's usually an injury, a niggle or a suspension for at least one of them.

 

Over 38 games, you need to look at your best 17 or 18, not your best 11. On that score, I think we are better this year and so have every chance of beating the 60 points we got last year. And on a rudimentary points per game basis, we are on target to get 63 points this season.

[david in sweden]

In a probably futile attempt to get this thread back on topic, I want to argue that we arguably now have a stronger squad than last season.

 

Not much in it between Forster and Stekelenburg. Maybe Forster is a bit better, but there isn't a huge amount in it.

 

I'd prefer to have van Dijk than Alderweireld. I also think Yoshida looks better this season than last. Hard to make a definitive judgement on Caulker, but he gives us better depth. Soares isn't as good as Clyne, of course, but looks like he's now settling in. Bertrand has got better and better over the last year. Targett may never be a first choice, first team Saints player, but he is surely better as cover at left back than he was a year ago.

 

In midfield, it was always going to be difficult to replace Schneiderlin. I'd prefer to have Morgan than either one of Clasie and Romeu, but we now have BOTH Clasie and Romeu. Sure, the rules of association football sadly don't allow us to play two new players in place of one departing player, but again the depth is much better. We can cope much better this year with an injury or a suspension to a defensive midfielder. Last season when either Victor or Morgan were out, I feared we were much weaker (especially after Cork's departure). Now, if we can't field Wanyama or Clasie, I think we are only slightly weaker.

 

Steve Davis seems to be a better player than last year (is this just form/confidence or has he found his role?) The front three of Tadic, Mane and Pelle are clicking together brilliantly. This time last year, some fans were saying Mane was a League One player. It now seems close to unanimous that he's a £30m player. Tadic started last season brilliantly but then faded. He now seems way more consistent. Pelle remains very consistent. Although it's been stop-start, we hopefully still have Rodriguez to come back and play a role. Hell, even Gaston Ramirez seems to have re-emerged as a half useful squad player.

 

I might still be persuaded that our best XI from last season is a little better than our best XI from this season. But you can't play your best XI in every game. In fact, it's quite rare to be able to field your best XI in any single match, there's usually an injury, a niggle or a suspension for at least one of them.

 

Over 38 games, you need to look at your best 17 or 18, not your best 11. On that score, I think we are better this year and so have every chance of beating the 60 points we got last year. And on a rudimentary points per game basis, we are on target to get 63 points this season.

 

good summary - if a bit long, but I'd agree with most of that.

 

Morgan will be hard to replace, but he came to us as a teenager, and 7 seasons and 250 games later ...he's the finished article. Lucky MU.

 

Hopefully we can avoid big injury crises, which blighted the second half of last season.....for me ....a good season will be finishing above Spurs.

[The9]

Fairly sure everyone thinks we have a stronger squad.

 

The argument to be had is whether we have a stronger team. Which I feel we don't, as no matter where you sit on the Alderweireld/Van Dijk scale, there's no comparison whatsoever between Schneiderlin and the three players we've tried to replace him with so far (Clasie/Ward-Prowse and Romeu), and we're weaker as a result.

 

Over time that may improve, and we may even do better this season over the course of the 38 games despite it, as we have greater depth of quality which means our challenge may not drop off so much when key starters are injured. At the moment, however, that gap hasn't been filled and we're trying to find ways around it rather than the impossible task of resolving it without spending a fortune.

Edited 9 November, 2015 by The9

[david in sweden]

Fairly sure everyone thinks we have a stronger squad.

 

The argument to be had is whether we have a stronger team.

 

perhaps ......depends if you think of " the squad..as a team ". We haven't had a " fixed " team of starters for quite a few games, yet it still seems to work.

 

Of course we can only have 11 on the pitch at the same time, but with half-a dozen midfielders to choose from, and a choice of 5-6 players in the back line.

 

The biggest problem (in past seasons) has been the lack of quality on the bench. Almost all the recent subs. have come on and DAJFU without causing a disaster.

 

We must hold form/ fitness throughout the squad..our only real "weaknesses " are having good cover for Stek. and Pelle. until FF, JayRod and Long are back.

[mrfahaji]

good summary - if a bit long, but I'd agree with most of that.

 

Morgan will be hard to replace, but he came to us as a teenager, and 7 seasons and 250 games later ...he's the finished article. Lucky MU.

 

Hopefully we can avoid big injury crises, which blighted the second half of last season.....for me ....a good season will be finishing above Spurs.

 

SaintBobby you've just been slammed by david in sweden for being verbose...

[ScepticalStan]

Well well well...

[The9]

We still have a stronger squad than last year. Last night we didn't use them as effectively as we could have, especially in the second half. Formations and tactics not personnel.

 

Caulker was a weak point but any defender who's been out of the team for months and playing alongside a new partner isn't going to do as well as a player with loads of experience with their partner - Van Dijk took a couple of games to gel with Fonte. Caulker isn't as good, but also given Fonte's injury wouldn't have had much practice with Van Dijk either, and it showed. We probably should have gone with the 2 DMs, but Koeman had already planned for resting Clasie and Cedric for this occasion and for some reason felt Clasie/Wanyama would work.

 

You can't just expect people to slot in at the same level immediately when they're clearly backups and short of game time, you can only hope they don't do anything personally that is below par (ditto Yoshida). Romeu not being used much and then dropped in against Man City had the exact same problem, and he'd played alongside Wanyama plenty a few months back and looked comfortable.

[Le Timmier]

Well well well...

 

Which club do you support mate?

[Saint Charlie]

Which club do you support mate?

Guessing Saints as it is a Saints Forum?

[Window Cleaner]

Guessing Saints as it is a Saints Forum?

 

 

Can't be, because A Saint's fan, well he'd never say that something is p*ss poor or unacceptable when it obviously is.

If you read the Red Café you can see that there are thousands of 40 yr Utd fans who aren't really Utd fans because they think LvG isn't great and Rooney is past it.

[Le Timmier]

Guessing Saints as it is a Saints Forum?

 

You think gleefully posting each time Saints do badly is supportive?

[Batman]

You think gleefully posting each time Saints do badly is supportive?

 

he posts when saints win too

[shurlock]

Keep hearing we have a stronger squad which may be true on paper; but it is unclear how its benefited us to date.

 

Has the deeper squad allowed us to absorb injuries and make positive in-game changes?

 

The jury's out IMO. Just need to look at Saturday when Koeman's idea of taking the game to City was to bring JWP and Tadic on, two players we had last season. Juanmi has been an afterthought (more so than Elia and Djuricic, though they were loans). Does bringing Romeu fill people with that more confidence than when Cork was on the bench. We clearly have more defensive depth than before - but in the absence of bringing three defenders on, Gardos is probably better than a combination of Caulker and Martina.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by shurlock

[Dig Dig]

Keep hearing we have a stronger squad which may be true on paper; but it is unclear how its benefited us to date.

 

Has the deeper squad allowed us to absorb injuries and make positive in-game changes?

 

The jury's out IMO. Just need to look at Saturday when Koeman's idea of taking the game to City was to bring JWP and Tadic on, two players we had last season. Juanmi has been an afterthought (more so than Elia and Djuricic, though they were loans). Does bringing Romeu fill people with that more confidence than when Cork was on the bench. We clearly have more defensive depth than before - but in the absence of bringing three defenders on, Gardos is probably better than a combination of Caulker and Martina.

 

Not IMO. We still need our first 11 out every week and we have little ability to change games from the bench. That's the reality at the end of the day.

[The9]

Not IMO. We still need our first 11 out every week and we have little ability to change games from the bench. That's the reality at the end of the day.

 

Our strength in depth is about trying to have players who can step in without there being a big drop off in quality, not about having excellent players who can change a game who aren't already playing - we don't have enough money for those.

 

To save people the trouble, no it didn't look like that with Caulker last night, so I guess the challenge now is to try and either get the squad players up to speed so they CAN step in (like Romeu/JWP/Long/Rodriguez have done) without an obvious drop off, or to find a way to (afford to) buy better players and make the current starters the squad players.

[sydenhamssocks]

Everyone on here has there own favourites/formations etc, but based on what would seem to be the managers first choice side, this is effectively our second 11 (notwithstanding any younger players)

 

Gazzaniga. Martina. Caulker. Yoshida. Target. Ward-Prowse. Romeu. Reed. Ramirez. Long. Juanmi

 

Does that side show a depth of quality and not just numbers? I'm not sure it does. Not all of them bad but not all of them great. If the first 11 were unavailable. Don't think these guys would keep us where we'd like to be for very long.

An unlikely scenario of course, but man for man they are almost all a step down from a fully fit on form first choice side.

[Dig Dig]

Our strength in depth is about trying to have players who can step in without there being a big drop off in quality, not about having excellent players who can change a game who aren't already playing - we don't have enough money for those.

 

To save people the trouble, no it didn't look like that with Caulker last night, so I guess the challenge now is to try and either get the squad players up to speed so they CAN step in (like Romeu/JWP/Long/Rodriguez have done) without an obvious drop off, or to find a way to (afford to) buy better players and make the current starters the squad players.

 

You seriously believe that a) we can't have players who can come in and make an impact and b) that those players you mention are showing form anywhere near being able to avoid significant drops in overall quality or our ability to play Koemans ideal system? JWP is the only one close to that. Rodriguez looks to have a big stuggle on his hands to get back to the required standard. Otherwise, we really do have little else.

[The9]

Everyone on here has there own favourites/formations etc, but based on what would seem to be the managers first choice side, this is effectively our second 11 (notwithstanding any younger players)

 

Gazzaniga. Martina. Caulker. Yoshida. Target. Ward-Prowse. Romeu. Reed. Ramirez. Long. Juanmi

 

Does that side show a depth of quality and not just numbers? I'm not sure it does. Not all of them bad but not all of them great. If the first 11 were unavailable. Don't think these guys would keep us where we'd like to be for very long.

An unlikely scenario of course, but man for man they are almost all a step down from a fully fit on form first choice side.

 

Maybe we've got cover not competition but that's still way better than any second choice team we've been able to field... probably ever. If the first XI were unavailable at any Prem club they'd expect a significant drop off in form from their first team, the point is that you'd probably only expect at worst 4 of them to play in the first team at any one time. Coincidentally 4 of them were on the pitch last night by the end.

[The9]

You seriously believe that a) we can't have players who can come in and make an impact and b) that those players you mention are showing form anywhere near being able to avoid significant drops in overall quality or our ability to play Koemans ideal system? JWP is the only one close to that. Rodriguez looks to have a big stuggle on his hands to get back to the required standard. Otherwise, we really do have little else.

 

Most of them are alternatives to give options for different systems or styles of play and that's how they make an impact. By definition the subs are not believed to be as suitable as those starting.

 

We don't have the money to have game-changers who aren't as good as their equivalents on the bench. Juanmi may become that player, Gaston was that player in theory, Long often has an impact - the point is if any of them were able to do their thing more effectively than the starters, they'd be starters - and for every highly paid sub we have to give us that "impact", there's a trade-off in having a weaker option elsewhere. It's about balance when you can't spend the money the likes of Man City can.

[Dig Dig]

Most of them are alternatives to give options for different systems or styles of play and that's how they make an impact. By definition the subs are not believed to be as suitable as those starting.

 

We don't have the money to have game-changers who aren't as good as their equivalents on the bench. Juanmi may become that player, Gaston was that player in theory, Long often has an impact - the point is if any of them were able to do their thing more effectively than the starters, they'd be starters - and for every highly paid sub we have to give us that "impact", there's a trade-off in having a weaker option elsewhere. It's about balance when you can't spend the money the likes of Man City can.

 

I'm not suggesting that we spend anywhere near what Man City do are have anywhere near the number of options but if there is a continued debate on here as to whether we have a better squad overall now compared to last season and the season before....the answer is no in the cold light of day.

 

The main issue with the players we signed in the summer is that some of them don't look physically strong or fast enough for the league (even if they do have some good technical qualities) and some aren't good enough full stop. Sometimes it looks like we try and be a bit too clever with our targets and ignore some of the fundamental traits needed to be a success based on where we are now.

 

The principle of a squad is to provide options and create competition for places which pushes everyone to perform to the highest level. It was all the rage on here to harp on about how we don't sign players for squad places/back-up yet a large percent of our business this summer was to do exactly that.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Dig Dig

[The9]

I'm not suggesting that we spend anywhere near what Man City do are have anywhere near the number of options but if there is a continued debate on here as to whether we have a better squad overall now compared to last season and the season before....the answer is no in the cold light of day.

 

The main issue with the players we signed in the summer is that some of them don't look physically strong or fast enough for the league (even if they do have some good technical qualities) and some aren't good enough full stop. Sometimes it looks like we try and be a bit too clever with our targets and ignore some of the fundamental traits needed to be a success based on where we are now.

 

The principle of a squad is to provide options and create competition for places which pushes everyone to perform to the highest level. It was all the rage on here to harp on about how we don't sign players for squad places/back-up yet a large percent of our business this summer was to do exactly that.

 

But they're still better than the smattering of U21s we frequently had on the bench last season.

[Dig Dig]

But they're still better than the smattering of U21s we frequently had on the bench last season.

 

I disagree, I don't think we are better off at the end of the day.

[Window Cleaner]

I disagree, I don't think we are better off at the end of the day.

 

Only the end of season report will tell us that.

For the time being we're lower in the league, out of Europe at the first real hurdle (if even that) and out of the league cup.

So really only finishing 7th or higher and getting to perhaps the SF stage of the FA Cup can be considered as having achieved a better performance, whether the squad is better or worse makes very little difference.

[Window Cleaner]

I disagree, I don't think we are better off at the end of the day.

 

Sort of. I can't see the difference between not playing Martina and not playing McCarthy either myself. Same with Juanmi and

Elia and that other Serb bloke we had at the end of last season.

[Stu Man Do]

Really think the strong squad stuff is overrated. Like liverpool last year, sign loads of players due to lots of games, and never find the right balance or consistent starting 11 all season. Spurs the year before with the bale money.

 

Get your first 11 right before anything else. We've put ourselves in a difficult position now as the squad is big and quality not high enough. Caulker shouldn't be here, Yoshida should be 4th choice. Martina shouldn't be here, not convinced about Clasie. Long isn't very useful and is taking up an important space.

 

Then there's Ramirez, paid loads and overlooked all the time. Ridiculous given the players ahead of him and constant under performing. We're far too reliant on Tadic and Mane who go missing sometimes. Ramirez is the only other creative player and doesn't make the bench. Koeman seems reluctant to use him or Juanmi, he's turned into a very safe manager, but you can't get by with just 3 attacking players in your side. I'd love to see us attack Villa with Ramirez behind Pelle and Mane but it won't happen.

 

 

And yet he's quoted on the Echo as discussing playing a MORE defensive system against Villa this weekend! VILLA!? Come on Ron!