Gay Premier Leauge players?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

As it happens, in a bored moment, I found myself watching 'Barely Legal Drivers' last night; a (not very good) example of the so-called 'reality television' phenomenon. If you have never seen it, this 'fly-on-the-windscreen' BBC series examines what teenage drivers really get up to when they are out on the road and there are no adults around.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rxl1f/barely-legal-drivers-series-1-6-matthew-and-georgina

 

Please don't bother watching the whole thing because it's really not worth your time. However, some 3 minutes into this episode, and again at 52 minutes, 'Matthew' - a rather flamboyant Homosexual 18 year-old with a utterly appalling hair style - briefly recounts his personal experiences of growing up in Wales today.

 

According to Matthew, modern Britain is not quite the tolerant 'safe haven' for young gay men that some on here would have you believe. Indeed, this boy recounts the harassment he faced at school, on public transport, and what sounds like a nasty homophobic incident that he and his boyfriend encountered at a local restaurant. Apparently, one of the principle reasons he wants his own car so much is so that he and his boyfriend will feel physically safer when they are out and about in the community.

 

This is just one individual lads story of course and perhaps young Matthew's experiences are very atypical. It may even be that the tales of homophobia he recounts here are nothing but a pack of lies. I'm thinking however that the story Matthew relates here is in all probability absolutely typical of life in Britain today for 'out' gay teenagers. I'm also thinking that it is not a coincidence that his story tallies with the official data we have on the issue. I'm absolutely certain that I'll place more trust in what he says than in what some on here opine so very fervently.

 

We have also had W9 Saint on here saying that he has rarely been subjected to any abuse, and that physical attacks are very rare.

 

I'm still unsure what your statistics show apart from 1 in 60 LGBT have been physically assaulted in the last 3 years (I wonder what the statistic is for non-LGBT people in the UK?) and around 5000 hate crimes are reported a year against LGBT.

Edited 5 November, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We have also had W9 Saint on here saying that he has rarely been subjected to any abuse, and that physical attacks are very rare.

 

I'm still unsure what your statistics show apart from 1 in 60 LGBT have been physically assaulted in the last 3 years (I wonder what the statistic is for non-LGBT people in the UK?) and around 5000 hate crimes are reported a year against LGBT.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lgbt-people-subjected-to-hate-crimes-on-daily-basis-in-uk-rural-communities-10337452.html

[hypochondriac]

As it happens, in a bored moment, I found myself watching 'Barely Legal Drivers' last night; a (not very good) example of the so-called 'reality television' phenomenon. If you have never seen it, this 'fly-on-the-windscreen' BBC series examines what teenage drivers really get up to when they are out on the road and there are no adults around.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rxl1f/barely-legal-drivers-series-1-6-matthew-and-georgina

 

Please don't bother watching the whole thing because it's really not worth your time. However, some 3 minutes into this episode, and again at 52 minutes, 'Matthew' - a rather flamboyant Homosexual 18 year-old with a utterly appalling hair style - briefly recounts his personal experiences of growing up in Wales today.

 

According to Matthew, modern Britain is not quite the tolerant 'safe haven' for young gay men that some on here would have you believe. Indeed, this boy recounts the harassment he faced at school, on public transport, and what sounds like a nasty homophobic incident that he and his boyfriend encountered at a local restaurant. Apparently, one of the principle reasons he wants his own car so much is so that he and his boyfriend will feel physically safer when they are out and about in the community.

 

This is just one individual lads story of course and perhaps young Matthew's experiences are very atypical. It may even be that the tales of homophobia he recounts here are nothing but a pack of lies. I'm thinking however that the story Matthew relates here is in all probability absolutely typical of life in Britain today for 'out' gay teenagers. I'm also thinking that it is not a coincidence that his story tallies with the official data we have on the issue. I'm absolutely certain that I'll place more trust in what he says than in what some on here opine so very fervently.

At no point has anyone denied homophobia exists. At no point. Using your example of young Matthew and then expanding that to say it's a typical experience of a gay person in Britain is just as valid as other posters who say they know and have spoken to homosexuals who have not been through what sounds like a horrible ordeal. I'll certainly be placing more trust in the homosexual people i know and their experiences than some bloke you've found on a TV programme that supports your view of the world.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

At no point has anyone denied homophobia exists. At no point. Using your example of young Matthew and then expanding that to say it's a typical experience of a gay person in Britain is just as valid as other posters who say they know and have spoken to homosexuals who have not been through what sounds like a horrible ordeal. I'll certainly be placing more trust in the homosexual people i know and their experiences than some bloke you've found on a TV programme that supports your view of the world.

 

Why am I to believe that Matthew is either lying or that his experiences are atypical?

[hypochondriac]

This article largely tallies with my viewpoint:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/english-football-openly-gay-players

 

some very good points raised in it:

 

The arrival of Twitter however, amplifies a positive perspective more than ever. Put it this way – if a player came out tomorrow, could you seriously see anything but a flood of supportive tweets from fellow footballers and fans?

 

Take a look at the comments section under any recent story about footballers coming out. Aside from the odd flash of bigotry one theme keeps returning – boredom. It’s the story that won’t go away, yet the reaction of football fans is not one of hostility, but weariness. Replies such as “Who cares?” and “It’s 2015” suggest a growing anger not directed at the players in question but the debate itself.

 

It might be naive to suggest that as with the closeted teenager (and there are definite parallels here for football) the only thing to fear is fear itself, yet those who suggest this new generation of players and fans can’t deal with their colleagues and heroes’ sexuality could perhaps use a reminder.

[hypochondriac]

Why am I to believe that Matthew is either lying or that his experiences are atypical?

 

Why am I to believe that homosexual people that other posters and myself have spoken to are either lying or that their experiences are atypical?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lgbt-people-subjected-to-hate-crimes-on-daily-basis-in-uk-rural-communities-10337452.html

 

Again, in UK rural communities - why are you showing us such small sample sizes? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but you're yet to show me a astatistic that says it is a common everyday problem, and that it is even slightly comparable to race crimes.

 

In 2014/15, there were 52,528 hate crimes recorded by the police, an increase of 18 per cent compared with the 44,471 hate crimes recorded in 2013/14, of which:

- 42,930 (82%) were race hate crimes;

- 5,597 (11%) were sexual orientation hate crimes;

- 3,254 (6%) were religion hate crimes;

- 2,508 (5%) were disability hate crimes; and

- 605 (1%) were transgender hate crimes.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Why am I to believe that homosexual people that other posters and myself have spoken to are either lying or that their experiences are atypical?

 

Or homosexuals on this thread...

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Why am I to believe that homosexual people that other posters and myself have spoken to are either lying or that their experiences are atypical?

 

I don't know how many Homosexual people you have supposedly discussed this issue with or indeed what they told you. I do know what young Matthew says and his account seems both convincing and is a primary source. More importantly, his version of life as a gay lad in Britain today tallies with what evidence is available.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I don't know how many Homosexual people you have supposedly discussed this issue with or indeed what they told you. I do know what young Matthew says and his account seems both convincing and is a primary source. More importantly, his version of life as a gay lad in Britain today tallies with what evidence is available.

 

What evidence is that CEC? Are you saying that because he's been subjected to it, every homosexual has been subjected to it? Or that because he's been subject to it, it tallies with the fact 1 in 6 have been subject to it in the last 3 years? I don't understand what you're tallying against, and you're still to hit us with some proper figures, even though we have asked you repeatedly to 'come out' with some.

[hypochondriac]

Some interesting quote when Hitzlsperger announced he was gay from a human rights campaigner:

 

"The Sun's coverage mirrors the huge positive shift in public attitudes towards gay people," Tatchell said."The praise and tributes showered on Thomas will, hopefully, send a signal to current players that it's safe to come out. Indeed, judging from the public reaction, any footballer who comes out it is likely to experience reputational enhancement rather than damage.

"Cynics could say that coming out is now a good PR move that will put a player in the headlines, boost their public support and probably lead to new sponsorship opportunities."

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So the LGBT population of the UK is around 1.8%, with the unofficial population set at around 80m.

 

From that we can deduce that, using 3 years of statistics, about 16000 hate crimes have taken place for 1.44m people. That means in the last 3 years, 1 in 90 LGBT have been subject to a reported hate crime. Even if we say only half have been reported, that is 1 in every 45 people.

 

For me, that doesn't seem particularly high, although maybe I work on a different scale to others.

[hypochondriac]

So the LGBT population of the UK is around 1.8%, with the unofficial population set at around 80m.

 

From that we can deduce that, using 3 years of statistics, about 16000 hate crimes have taken place for 1.44m people. That means in the last 3 years, 1 in 90 LGBT have been subject to a reported hate crime. Even if we say only half have been reported, that is 1 in every 45 people.

 

For me, that doesn't seem particularly high, although maybe I work on a different scale to others.

 

Hardly sounds like the vast majority of gay people are subject to daily examples of homophobia which was the contention in the first place.

[hutch]

I was subjected to a bit of harassment at school. And I'm not even gay.

 

Fookin' homophobes.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Hardly sounds like the vast majority of gay people are subject to daily examples of homophobia which was the contention in the first place.

 

Well, people interpret statistics in their own way against their own measures. Be interesting to see what CEC comes back with though.

[suewhistle]

What a fascinating thread. The only conclusion I can come to is that a lot of people don't know what they are talking about and certain people have brought their own inimitable style to the arguments. Oh yes, and hypochondriac seems to be obsessed with the subject, so maybe his medicines have reacted badly.

 

All in all I think it must be an aggressive male thing. In women's football we're far more accepting, and the straights don't get any grief at all.;-) I've certainly been subjected to low level homophobic abuse which I have ignored, life is too short. Anyway, I've got to go and pack as I've finished me cuppa and I'm flying off to be guest at a lesbian wedding tomorrow: some things have certainly got better.

[W9Saint]

We have also had W9 Saint on here saying that he has rarely been subjected to any abuse, and that physical attacks are very rare.

 

I'm still unsure what your statistics show apart from 1 in 60 LGBT have been physically assaulted in the last 3 years (I wonder what the statistic is for non-LGBT people in the UK?) and around 5000 hate crimes are reported a year against LGBT.

 

Whilst I have not been subject to much in the way of abuse & grew up in a small village in Dorset I went to great efforts to hide being gay in order to avoid potential abuse. I think lots of gay people especially in rural communities go to similar lengths to avoid any hassle.

 

A question, if your son or daughter came out as gay do you think they would be accepted whole heartedly within your network of family & friends. Would you worry about the reaction they may get?

[Dig Dig]

I'm not actually sure what the debate here is anymore. Is homophobia, real or percieved, a reason for a gay footballer not to openly come out? I'd say it is and I've not seen a coherent argument which would suggest otherwise.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Whilst I have not been subject to much in the way of abuse & grew up in a small village in Dorset I went to great efforts to hide being gay in order to avoid potential abuse. I think lots of gay people especially in rural communities go to similar lengths to avoid any hassle.

 

A question, if your son or daughter came out as gay do you think they would be accepted whole heartedly within your network of family & friends. Would you worry about the reaction they may get?

 

Luckily (and I know not everyone is that lucky), no I wouldn't be worried, my family and friends would have no issue with it.

 

It is sad that some people feel like that, but hopefully we're becoming more tolerant as a society and it won't be long until this is no longer a problem.

[Batman]

Luckily (and I know not everyone is that lucky), no I wouldn't be worried, my family and friends would have no issue with it.

 

It is sad that some people feel like that, but hopefully we're becoming more tolerant as a society and it won't be long until this is no longer a problem.

 

it will never go away. 300k people a year coming to the UK. Many from nations where being gay is a crime or at best, like it was here 35 years ago...will keep it a taboo subject

[hypochondriac]

Well, people interpret statistics in their own way against their own measures. Be interesting to see what CEC comes back with though.

 

I'm not holding my breath TBH.

[whelk]

it will never go away. 300k people a year coming to the UK. Many from nations where being gay is a crime or at best, like it was here 35 years ago...will keep it a taboo subject

 

So lack of tolerance is down to immigrants

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'm not holding my breath TBH.

 

No, he seems to have removed himself from the debate...

[hypochondriac]

No, he seems to have removed himself from the debate...

 

Which is a bit rich considering he was berating me for taking an hour to post him a reply.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What evidence is that CEC? Are you saying that because he's been subjected to it, every homosexual has been subjected to it? Or that because he's been subject to it, it tallies with the fact 1 in 6 have been subject to it in the last 3 years? I don't understand what you're tallying against, and you're still to hit us with some proper figures, even though we have asked you repeatedly to 'come out' with some.

 

Well Jeff, if you really do 'seek after the truth' then I did provide you with a link that will lead you to some actual evidence re this matter - I can only suggest that you follow it. For the record, the Home Office reports that the police recorded some 5,597 homophobic 'hate crime' incidents in 2014/15 - a rise of 22%. This statistic of course massively underestimates the scale of the problem because many offences go unreported to the police. This is why professional criminologists stress the importance of the 'Crime Survey' results as this gives a better insight into the true situation.

The government estimates that some 5-7% of the UK population fall into the 'LGBT' group. If correct, that gives us a UK LGBT population of between 3 and 4 million people. Official estimates show that 1 in 8 of this minority group experience a hate crime incident EACH YEAR. http://www.galop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Hate-Crime-Report-2013.pdf

 

So to sum up the argument:

 

> I think that everyone on here freely concedes that some level of homophobic behaviour is still present in UK society.

 

> However, some forum members continue to insist that our nation is now such a tolerant place for Homosexual people to live and freely express themselves in that this form of prejudice has been reduced to virtual insignificance, or at least something akin to that.

 

> Evidence provided by the official 'Crime Survey' that FLATLY CONTRADICTS the above is rejected. Apart from some talk of gay people being overly sensitive types (no danger of sexual stereotyping there!) as yet no real reason has been presented as to why this data is regarded as incorrect or irrelevant.

 

> Other survey evidence that supports the 'Crime Survey' findings, this time provided by non-governmental organisations (such as the pressure group 'Stonewall' for example) is also either rejected or ignored. Again I see no reason given as to why this forum is to believe that these results are somehow invalid http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/research/research38_so_hatecrime.pdf

 

> My rather frequent (and indeed ongoing) encounters with low-level homophobia in the workplace and elsewhere are rejected as being unrepresentative and/or outdated.

 

> Video evidence presented on here from a gay teenager living in the UK today that relates his personal experiences with homophobia are also rejected as being unrepresentative - this despite the evidence (qv) seeming to show that his experiences are probably fairly typical.

 

So in conclusion.

Despite what some on here might try to tell me, I choose to look first at the actual evidence of the matter, rather than blindly accept what some on here may perceive reality to be. On that evidence, I consider a 1 in 8 chance of becoming a homophobic 'hate crime' victim each year to represent what is a highly significant factor in the daily lives of millions of British people. Furthermore, those who seek to deny this are almost certainly in error ... however strongly they feel on the issue.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

No, he seems to have removed himself from the debate...

 

Not at all Jeff. My temporary absence from the debate had more to do with this tiresome EAT-SLEEP-WORK-REPEAT business that interrupts my Internet career on occasion ...

[hypochondriac]

Not at all Jeff. My temporary absence from the debate had more to do with this tiresome EAT-SLEEP-WORK-REPEAT business that interrupts my Internet career on occasion ...

 

Yet you didn't think the same applied when I took a mere hour to respond to you?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yet you didn't think the same applied when I took a mere hour to respond to you?

 

Well if I recall correctly that was in the evening when that 'little green light' showed that we were both simultaneously on line. I must also admit to this forum that I took a long hot bath yesterday evening after a hard days work.

 

I beg the collective forgiveness of SWF members for this inexcusable display of hedonism on my part.

[hypochondriac]

Well if I recall correctly that was in the evening when that 'little green light' showed that we were both simultaneously on line. I must also admit to this forum that I took a long hot bath yesterday evening after a hard days work.

 

I beg the collective forgiveness of SWF members for this inexcusable display of hedonism on my part.

 

I use Tapatalk from my phone and it frequently shows me as online when I am not. Apology accepted.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well Jeff, if you really do 'seek after the truth' then I did provide you with a link that will lead you to some actual evidence re this matter - I can only suggest that you follow it. For the record, the Home Office reports that the police recorded some 5,597 homophobic 'hate crime' incidents in 2014/15 - a rise of 22%. This statistic of course massively underestimates the scale of the problem because many offences go unreported to the police. This is why professional criminologists stress the importance of the 'Crime Survey' results as this gives a better insight into the true situation.

The government estimates that some 5-7% of the UK population fall into the 'LGBT' group. If correct, that gives us a UK LGBT population of between 3 and 4 million people. Official estimates show that 1 in 8 of this minority group experience a hate crime incident EACH YEAR. http://www.galop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Hate-Crime-Report-2013.pdf

 

 

How much hate crime is there?

Answer: There are over 1000 homophobic crimes and about 50 transphobic crimes recorded by police in London each year

A quarter of reported homophobic crimes happen in London

 

This is from that Galop report for 2013, which puts UK homophobic crimes at about 4000? If correct, and the LGBT community is 4m, then that means that only 1 in 1000 LGBT is subject to a hate crime per year? All that proves is that it is less common then even my stats above showed.

 

The problem I have with the crime survey is that it is quite a small sample size, around 0.06% of the LGBT community, and even then it says that 1 in 10 have experienced an incident in the last year, so it's likely that an LGBT person would experience a hate crime once every ten years. That seems pretty low to me and doesn't tally with the impression you're giving. What do those figures say to you? They are from your evidence so I assume they are correct.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It would be great if everyone was asked for their experiences of crime. That however may not be a practicable notion. I suspect that a statistician would tell you that The Crime Survey sample is quite large enough to be considered generally reliable - although I suppose there is always a 'margin of error' implicit in any exercise of this type.

[hypochondriac]

Well Jeff, if you really do 'seek after the truth' then I did provide you with a link that will lead you to some actual evidence re this matter - I can only suggest that you follow it. For the record, the Home Office reports that the police recorded some 5,597 homophobic 'hate crime' incidents in 2014/15 - a rise of 22%. This statistic of course massively underestimates the scale of the problem because many offences go unreported to the police. This is why professional criminologists stress the importance of the 'Crime Survey' results as this gives a better insight into the true situation.

The government estimates that some 5-7% of the UK population fall into the 'LGBT' group. If correct, that gives us a UK LGBT population of between 3 and 4 million people. Official estimates show that 1 in 8 of this minority group experience a hate crime incident EACH YEAR. http://www.galop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Hate-Crime-Report-2013.pdf

 

So to sum up the argument:

 

> I think that everyone on here freely concedes that some level of homophobic behaviour is still present in UK society.

 

Agreed

 

> However, some forum members continue to insist that our nation is now such a tolerant place for Homosexual people to live and freely express themselves in that this form of prejudice has been reduced to virtual insignificance, or at least something akin to that.

Nope no one said this. I certainly don't think that homophobia is so prevalent that it is experienced on a daily basis though. No prejudice is insignificant, but it certainly isn't in my opinion at the levels that some say it is on here.

> Evidence provided by the official 'Crime Survey' that FLATLY CONTRADICTS the above is rejected. Apart from some talk of gay people being overly sensitive types (no danger of sexual stereotyping there!) as yet no real reason has been presented as to why this data is regarded as incorrect or irrelevant.

 

Where has anyone said that specifically gay people are overly sensitive types? Personally I think all pressure groups are sensitive to things and there is a risk that they could find prejudice in places where it doesn't always exist (look at Andros Townsend's Dad today which I hope everyone agrees is ridiculous.)

> Other survey evidence that supports the 'Crime Survey' findings, this time provided by non-governmental organisations (such as the pressure group 'Stonewall' for example) is also either rejected or ignored. Again I see no reason given as to why this forum is to believe that these results are somehow invalid http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/research/research38_so_hatecrime.pdf

 

Stonewall are not a neutral organisation. They are -as you pointed out -a pressure group who have a vested interest in these things. Ever heard of the Anti defamation league? They've done a lot for equal rights and seeking an end to discrimination (as have Stonewall) but the flip side is they've constantly been derided for exaggerating the problem and finding anti-semitism where none exists. This may not be the case but they are clearly not impartial here.

> My rather frequent (and indeed ongoing) encounters with low-level homophobia in the workplace and elsewhere are rejected as being unrepresentative and/or outdated.

Your experiences of "low-level homophobia" (whatever that is) may not be unrepresentative but it's certainly no more valid than the other posters on here who say they don't experience any of that.

 

> Video evidence presented on here from a gay teenager living in the UK today that relates his personal experiences with homophobia are also rejected as being unrepresentative - this despite the evidence (qv) seeming to show that his experiences are probably fairly typical.

 

Discussed this already.

 

So in conclusion.

Despite what some on here might try to tell me, I choose to look first at the actual evidence of the matter, rather than blindly accept what some on here may perceive reality to be. On that evidence, I consider a 1 in 8 chance of becoming a homophobic 'hate crime' victim each year to represent what is a highly significant factor in the daily lives of millions of British people. Furthermore, those who seek to deny this are almost certainly in error ... however strongly they feel on the issue.

 

Well you've used your own experiences and perceptions during your entire argument. It is only a few posts ago that we found out about the racist Policeman from forty years ago. If it is a one in eight chance of being subject to a hate crime yearly (and what others have posted at the very least throws doubt on your figures) then whilst that is not a good situation, it shows that the problem is much smaller than the one described on here. Particularly when you consider that the figures for racist incidents are much worse and when the definition for that hate crime would be extremely broad. Some categorised by pressure groups as hate crimes would no doubt be open to interpretation at best.

 

There are homophobics in society and there are homophobic incidents which should always be condemned, but I would argue that it has got a lot better in recent years and continues to improve. What may have been a daily incident with dodgy coppers in the seventies is now no longer a daily occurrence according to the statistics and anecdotes from people on here including homosexuals. Long may that continue and I am very confident that as the older generation is replaced, Britain will become an even more tolerant society. I certainly hope so.

Edited 6 November, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It would be great if everyone was asked for their experiences of crime. That however may not be a practicable notion. I suspect that a statistician would tell you that The Crime Survey sample is quite large enough to be considered generally reliable - although I suppose there is always a 'margin of error' implicit in any exercise of this type.

 

Do you think that a member of the LGBT community experiencing one hate crime every 10 years is excessive? Does this tally with that video you saw the other day:

 

"> Video evidence presented on here from a gay teenager living in the UK today that relates his personal experiences with homophobia are also rejected as being unrepresentative - this despite the evidence (qv) seeming to show that his experiences are probably fairly typical."

 

Can you please discuss the statistics that I took from the evidence you presented and tell me how that tallies with your experiences, and the 'typical' experience of the gay teenager living in the UK?

[hutch]

A couple of questions Charlie:

 

1 In your eyes is somebody that doesn't agree with single sex marriage homophobic?

 

2 Likewise is somebody that doesn't agree with single sex couples fostering or adopting children homophobic?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Do you think that a member of the LGBT community experiencing one hate crime every 10 years is excessive? Does this tally with that video you saw the other day:

 

"> Video evidence presented on here from a gay teenager living in the UK today that relates his personal experiences with homophobia are also rejected as being unrepresentative - this despite the evidence (qv) seeming to show that his experiences are probably fairly typical."

 

Can you please discuss the statistics that I took from the evidence you presented and tell me how that tallies with your experiences, and the 'typical' experience of the gay teenager living in the UK?

 

I think that any Human Being experiencing a hate crime incident once in their life time is too often. Do you disagree? Again, the official statistics provided show that 1 in 8 members of the LGBT societal group - on average - expedience what is defined (by HMG) as a 'hate crime' incident every year. Therefore, young Matthew's experience of homophobia seems absolutely typical of young men in his situation today.

 

As for the statistical evidence. You do understand I hope that the CSEW (Crime Survey for England & Wales) interview some 25,000 adults and 3,000 children about their individual experiences of criminality every year. This sample size is of course one far in excess of those typically undertaken by any of the well known national polling organisations - such as MORI for example. Furthermore, the interview methodology employed by the CSEW is (I understand) also far more rigorous and scientifically measured than some quasi-random 'if the General Election was held tomorrow' type exercise conducted over a telephone. I can't help but wonder if this sudden desire to question the evidence is motivated more by the fact that the evidence doesn't support your argument, rather than any real show of concern for the truth here.

 

You, Hypo and the rest of this somewhat 'motley crew' on here who are so remarkably determined to deny the actual evidence that we have in favour of their own person (and therefore entirely subjective) perception of reality can flounder around from here to 'kingdom come' if you wish. But in the final analysis the facts are the facts.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

A couple of questions Charlie:

 

1 In your eyes is somebody that doesn't agree with single sex marriage homophobic?

 

2 Likewise is somebody that doesn't agree with single sex couples fostering or adopting children homophobic?

 

I'm not sure where you want to go with this Hutch, but my answer to both questions would be 'not necessarily'.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

 

There are homophobics in society and there are homophobic incidents which should always be condemned, but I would argue that it has got a lot better in recent years and continues to improve. What may have been a daily incident with dodgy coppers in the seventies is now no longer a daily occurrence according to the statistics and anecdotes from people on here including homosexuals. Long may that continue and I am very confident that as the older generation is replaced, Britain will become an even more tolerant society. I certainly hope so.

 

Well there is much that you have contributed to this thread that I can't agree with. The above however I fully concur with. Indeed, I would hope no one on here would object to a single word of this.

[View From The Top]

I think that any Human Being experiencing a hate crime incident once in their life time is too often. Do you disagree? Again, the official statistics provided show that 1 in 8 members of the LGBT societal group - on average - expedience what is defined (by HMG) as a 'hate crime' incident every year. Therefore, young Matthew's experience of homophobia seems absolutely typical of young men in his situation today.

 

As for the statistical evidence. You do understand I hope that the CSEW (Crime Survey for England & Wales) interview some 25,000 adults and 3,000 children about their individual experiences of criminality every year. This sample size is of course one far in excess of those typically undertaken by any of the well known national polling organisations - such as MORI for example. Furthermore, the interview methodology employed by the CSEW is (I understand) also far more rigorous and scientifically measured than some quasi-random 'if the General Election was held tomorrow' type exercise conducted over a telephone. I can't help but wonder if this sudden desire to question the evidence is motivated more by the fact that the evidence doesn't support your argument, rather than any real show of concern for the truth here.

 

You, Hypo and the rest of this somewhat 'motley crew' on here who are so remarkably determined to deny the actual evidence that we have in favour of their own person (and therefore entirely subjective) perception of reality can flounder around from here to 'kingdom come' if you wish. But in the final analysis the facts are the facts.

 

I'm neutral in this in so much I think everyone is a co_ck but it does strike me as you've adopted a position that, despite perfectly sound evidence to the contrary, you've become so entrenched in that you cannot shift from for fear of being seen to lose an argument.

 

You've already thrown a dicky fit because you felt someone on the internet had called you a liar so god only knows how you'd feel if you actually had to hold your hands up and say that you're wrong.

 

Well done for standing up for the LGBT community but as someone who teaches gay lads and lasses every day I can assure you that they really don't need our help they are doing mighty fine thank you very much.

Edited 6 November, 2015 by View From The Top

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm neutral in this in so much I think everyone is a co_ck but it does strike me as you've adopted a position that, despite perfectly sound evidence to the contrary, you've become so entrenched in that you cannot shift from for fear of being seen to lose an argument.

 

You've already thrown a dicky fit because you felt someone on the internet had called you a liar so god only knows how you'd feel if you actually had to hold your hands up and say that you're wrong.

 

Well done for standing up for the LGBT community but as someone who teaches gay lads and lasses every day I can assure you that they really don't need our help they are doing mighty fine thank you very much.

 

But the 'sound evidence' is all pointing in the same direction is it not? That is the point here that you seem to have missed some how. I might also question your depiction of me being the only person on here suffering from a 'entrenched opinion' when that particular malady seems to have become endemic here.

[hypochondriac]

I'm neutral in this in so much I think everyone is a co_ck but it does strike me as you've adopted a position that, despite perfectly sound evidence to the contrary, you've become so entrenched in that you cannot shift from for fear of being seen to lose an argument.

 

You've already thrown a dicky fit because you felt someone on the internet had called you a liar so god only knows how you'd feel if you actually had to hold your hands up and say that you're wrong.

 

Well done for standing up for the LGBT community but as someone who teaches gay lads and lasses every day I can assure you that they really don't need our help they are doing mighty fine thank you very much.

 

Couldn't agree more. We have gone from daily occurrences of homophobia to 1 in 8 experiencing a hate crime once a year (and even that has been questioned based on some dodgy stats). Quite a massive shift there. Realistically homophobia will always exist in some form as there will always be some idiots but I think we have established that it is falling and that the situation has improved markedly from even a decade ago. Daily abuse for a gay man is no longer the typical experience and thank goodness for that.

 

Chapel end Charlie, what percentage of the UK population do you feel engage in homophobic behaviour? Ballpark figure?

[Wade Garrett]

Who are the gay footballers then?

[shurlock]

1 in 8 in a given year is pretty high risk. End of.

[hypochondriac]

1 in 8 is pretty high risk. End of.

 

But nothing like what was portrayed earlier in the thread. End of.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Couldn't agree more. We have gone from daily occurrences of homophobia to 1 in 8 experiencing a hate crime once a year (and even that has been questioned based on some dodgy stats). Quite a massive shift there. Realistically homophobia will always exist in some form as there will always be some idiots but I think we have established that it is falling and that the situation has improved markedly from even a decade ago. Daily abuse for a gay man is no longer the typical experience and thank goodness for that.

 

I think that most reasonable people would conclude that 1 in 8 LGBT people annually experiencing a 'hate crime' incident that was significant enough for them to both remember and then report it to officialdom is of some significance.

 

Were one British citizen in every eight to have their house broken into or their car stolen every single year then you can rest assured that a huge uproar would ensue. 1 in 8 is actually a worrying statistic rather than a cause for complacency.

[hypochondriac]

I think that most reasonable people would conclude that 1 in 8 LGBT people annually experiencing a 'hate crime' incident that was significant enough for them to both remember and then report it to officialdom is of some significance.

 

Were one British citizen in every eight to have their house broken into or their car stolen every single year then you can rest assured that a huge uproar would ensue. 1 in 8 is actually a worrying statistic rather than a cause for complacency.

 

Who is being complacent. It's quite simple what our issue is here. All anyone is questioning was your earlier portrayal of Britain as some sort of homophobic hotbed with homophobic incidents around every corner and a homosexual subject to daily incidents of homophobia. Just because you have now decided to change the goalposts doesn't change that basic fact. It seems we have reached a consensus though. We both agree that any intolerance is bad but also that whilst the levels of abuse are still unacceptable, they aren't at the level previously described. Glad we agree.

[shurlock]

But nothing like what was portrayed earlier in the thread. End of.

 

Nope 1 in 8 is high risk. Assuming events are independent or even quasi-independent, it means many will have experienced some form of abuse during the course of their lives. Who knows how a hate crime is defined. However defined, I assume it's not a pleasant experience, so it only has to happen once for it to leave a mark.

 

Assuming they are correct, the numbers speak for themselves. End of.

Edited 6 November, 2015 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

Nope 1 in 8 is high risk. Assuming events are independent or even quasi-independent, it means many will have experienced some form of abuse during the course of their lives. Who knows how a hate crime is defined. However defined, I assume it's not a pleasant experience, so it only has to happen once for it to leave a mark.

 

The numbers speak for themselves. End of.

 

Hold on so the criteria now is if you have experienced some forms of abuse in your lifetime? Not what was suggested earlier at all.

[hypochondriac]

So chapel end Charlie you said this earlier in the thread:

 

"I personally encounter some degree of homophobic comment or attitude at least once a week on average I guess. I dare say that those who are unfortunate enough to be the targets of this form of prejudice probably experience this far more often than I do.

 

Again the UK Crime Survey shows that this is provable statistically and if that doesn't appal you then it probably should."

 

So do the stats prove that homosexuals experience homophobia "far more than once a week" like you said or is it one in eight once a year that you are claiming now?

[hypochondriac]

Nope 1 in 8 is high risk. Assuming events are independent or even quasi-independent, it means many will have experienced some form of abuse during the course of their lives. Who knows how a hate crime is defined. However defined, I assume it's not a pleasant experience, so it only has to happen once for it to leave a mark.

 

Assuming they are correct, the numbers speak for themselves. End of.

 

High risk you may say but nothing like far more than once a week which was what was claimed.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Who is being complacent. It's quite simple what our issue is here. All anyone is questioning was your earlier portrayal of Britain as some sort of homophobic hotbed with homophobic incidents around every corner and a homosexual subject to daily incidents of homophobia. Just because you have now decided to change the goalposts doesn't change that basic fact. It seems we have reached a consensus though. We both agree that any intolerance is bad but also that whilst the levels of abuse are still unacceptable, they aren't at the level previously described. Glad we agree.

 

You seem to be struggling to comprehend the key difference here between me observing regular homophobic attitudes during my working lifetime - which I certainly have - and the scale of significant 'hate crime' incidents the LGBT population is subject to.

 

It is unfair of you to imply that the homophobia experiences I relate were all something akin to violent assaults or other incidents significant enough to be reported to the police or CSEW. Homophobia is of course a more subtle phenomenon than that and most often expressed in relatively milder forms. The fact that - to my knowledge - a group of grown men still to this day mutter ''backs to the wall lads'' every time someone they suspect may be gay walks past them may never be recorded anywhere - except that is in the memory of those concerned.

 

I guess here that you need psychologically to have the 'last word' on this subject and I'm happy to let you have it. Frankly Hypo, I really don't have much left new to say on the subject anyway truth be told. So that really is all - fill your boots!