eurosaint Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Not homophobic one little bit but my advice too any footballer would be to stay in the closet about it. There'll just make themselves a target and the media will do my head in as well. I'd have major respect for any professional sportsman who came out though. Would be a tough call!! If this were to happen then the whole discussion will go on forever and remain an unresolved issue ! IMO the sooner someone comes out the better, does anyone actually think that Gareth Thomas (rugby player) and Thomas Hizlesperger have negatively suffered because of it ? I consider them to be proven strong characters and from what I've read they both feel more comfortable for it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I don't think the reason to come out should be because it will then be easier for everyone else. If someone wants to make their sexuality public then they should do it for themselves, not because they fancy doing it for noble reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 But they should feel comfortable everywhere, that's the point. That's why it's good that these famous people come out - because culture can change. It can be hard enough to find someone you want to be with when 97% of the people around you are the same sexuality. With a 3% hit rate its much more difficult. People often want to be with others like them. Its the same reason you get Polish or Indian or Jewish areas. Brighton isnt generically gay friendly. If you go to Whitehawk (think Millbrook on steroids) then I imagine the gay population is close to zero. Down the road in Kemptown with its gay bars, hotels, cafes and saunas its probably nearer 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Why is it unlikely? You get straight people there as well. Surely if someone wanted to go "gay bashing" that's the place to do it? As said earlier I an sure it does happen, I just don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as some make out. I did say "unlikely" which is to say it's not impossible to find homophobic behaviour in Soho. Indeed lets not forget that one of the most monstrous gay hate crimes of recent times, the bombing of the Admiral Duncan pub took place in Soho. This was as you say, by some one who purposely came to Soho because of the reputation of the place, to perpetrate it. But generally Soho is one of the most gay friendly places on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W9Saint Posted 29 October, 2015 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2015 A couple of points from my viewpoint. I have rarely experienced any abuse but then I guess as a beer drinking, football watching guy I don't conform to the perceived "gay stereotype". Attitudes have certainly improved dramatical over the last few years however I still would not feel comfortable kissing my husband at St Mary's after a 93rd minute winning goal. Whether it is a rational or not a lot of fear still exists in the gay community which prevents a lot of people feeling 100% comfortable to be themselves in public. Physical abuse thankfully is very rare but s******ing, pointing or casual jibes are still commonplace if you were to walk down a provincial town holding hands. Hopefully a day will come soon when it will not be a monumental decision to come out, and something that you will not feel embarrassed or uncomfortable to do. And hopefully people will be able to refer to someone without the prefix of "gay" in front of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 A couple of points from my viewpoint. I have rarely experienced any abuse but then I guess as a beer drinking, football watching guy I don't conform to the perceived "gay stereotype". Attitudes have certainly improved dramatical over the last few years however I still would not feel comfortable kissing my husband at St Mary's after a 93rd minute winning goal. Whether it is a rational or not a lot of fear still exists in the gay community which prevents a lot of people feeling 100% comfortable to be themselves in public. Physical abuse thankfully is very rare but s******ing, pointing or casual jibes are still commonplace if you were to walk down a provincial town holding hands. Hopefully a day will come soon when it will not be a monumental decision to come out, and something that you will not feel embarrassed or uncomfortable to do. And hopefully people will be able to refer to someone without the prefix of "gay" in front of it. And that's it, I think the bigger deal we make of it, the more 'out of the ordinary' it becomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Some interesting angles on here, this bubble was burst a while ago in that most manly of sports Rugby Union, Gareth Thomas 100 Welsh caps, came out, short media frenzy then everyone got with their lives and Gareth is still best remembered as a great rugby player. Once footballs closet door is open it will stay open and this will all be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I don't think the reason to come out should be because it will then be easier for everyone else. If someone wants to make their sexuality public then they should do it for themselves, not because they fancy doing it for noble reasons. Why shouldn't they do it for noble reasons if they want to? Emily Davison, the Suffragette, stepped in front of a racehorse and died for her beliefs. She did that for others. The more that famous footballers came out, the easier it will be for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 A couple of points from my viewpoint. I have rarely experienced any abuse but then I guess as a beer drinking, football watching guy I don't conform to the perceived "gay stereotype". Attitudes have certainly improved dramatical over the last few years however I still would not feel comfortable kissing my husband at St Mary's after a 93rd minute winning goal. Whether it is a rational or not a lot of fear still exists in the gay community which prevents a lot of people feeling 100% comfortable to be themselves in public. Physical abuse thankfully is very rare but s******ing, pointing or casual jibes are still commonplace if you were to walk down a provincial town holding hands. Hopefully a day will come soon when it will not be a monumental decision to come out, and something that you will not feel embarrassed or uncomfortable to do. And hopefully people will be able to refer to someone without the prefix of "gay" in front of it. I was just reading that there were over 6000 "hate crimes" recorded against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people last year - and those are only the ones that were reported. Stonewall are saying that although we have made great strides in stamping out racism and sexism, there is still some way to go with discrimination in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I didn't say they felt uncomfortable simply that they felt more comfortable among a load of other gay people in much the same way as most people feel more comfortable in the company of people who are the same as them. That's hardly earth shattering news. I know plenty of gay people who feel perfectly comfortable in the company of people who are not gay. You seem to be saying that they are "different." They may have a different sexuality but they are still human beings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I know plenty of gay people who feel perfectly comfortable in the company of people who are not gay. You seem to be saying that they are "different." They may have a different sexuality but they are still human beings! Hold on no I didn't you are trying to twist my words. We are clearly talking in general terms here and in general people feel more comfortable around like minded people. Otherwise why do areas like Soho and large parts of Brighton exist? Or why does Southampton have a large Polish population for example? Why are they not evenly spread over the rest of the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 (edited) I was just reading that there were over 6000 "hate crimes" recorded against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people last year - and those are only the ones that were reported. Stonewall are saying that although we have made great strides in stamping out racism and sexism, there is still some way to go with discrimination in this area. 6,000 out of 3m crimes annually. Put another way gay people are 15 times more likely to be a victim of theft, criminal damage or burglary than hate crime (still too many of course). Edited 29 October, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I was just reading that there were over 6000 "hate crimes" recorded against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people last year - and those are only the ones that were reported. Stonewall are saying that although we have made great strides in stamping out racism and sexism, there is still some way to go with discrimination in this area. Two points: 1. There are no doubt plenty which weren't reported but there were also plenty recorded which may have been false, so you would have to take both into account. 2. I just did a quick search for the demographics of gay people in the UK, which came up with 3.6m, roughly 6%, which seems reasonable. 6,000 'hate crimes' against 3.6m people is pretty much 1 in 600 people or less than 0.2% of the gay population. Hardly endemic of homophobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Two points: 1. There are no doubt plenty which weren't reported but there were also plenty recorded which may have been false, so you would have to take both into account. 2. I just did a quick search for the demographics of gay people in the UK, which came up with 3.6m, roughly 6%, which seems reasonable. 6,000 'hate crimes' against 3.6m people is pretty much 1 in 600 people or less than 0.2% of the gay population. Hardly endemic of homophobia. Can't agree with point 1 I'm afraid, pretty spurious that there'd be false ones to wipe out those not reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Some interesting angles on here, this bubble was burst a while ago in that most manly of sports Rugby Union, Gareth Thomas 100 Welsh caps, came out, short media frenzy then everyone got with their lives and Gareth is still best remembered as a great rugby player. Once footballs closet door is open it will stay open and this will all be forgotten. Not sure he wants to be remembered just for rugby though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Why shouldn't they do it for noble reasons if they want to? Emily Davison, the Suffragette, stepped in front of a racehorse and died for her beliefs. She did that for others. The more that famous footballers came out, the easier it will be for others. Yes but they shouldn't feel pressured into doing it just because it would be easier for others. Totally up to the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 I was just reading that there were over 6000 "hate crimes" recorded against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people last year - and those are only the ones that were reported. Stonewall are saying that although we have made great strides in stamping out racism and sexism, there is still some way to go with discrimination in this area. We've had this discussion. What is classed as a hate crime? And how is a transgender person relevant to a gay person? Even many homosexuals get annoyed by the comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Can't agree with point 1 I'm afraid, pretty spurious that there'd be false ones to wipe out those not reported. Unless the definition of a hate crime is clearly defined then the figures are largely meaningless IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Not sure he wants to be remembered just for rugby though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Not sure he wants to be remembered just for rugby though About 5-6% body fat, good definition, well trimmed beard. Muscular but not bulky. What's not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 About 5-6% body fat, good definition, well trimmed beard. Muscular but not bulky. What's not to like? Wonky head ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 Wonky head ? Be fair, you can't tell from that picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 About 5-6% body fat, good definition, well trimmed beard. Muscular but not bulky. What's not to like? Must be like looking in the mirror, Turks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 October, 2015 Share Posted 29 October, 2015 If this were to happen then the whole discussion will go on forever and remain an unresolved issue ! IMO the sooner someone comes out the better, does anyone actually think that Gareth Thomas (rugby player) and Thomas Hizlesperger have negatively suffered because of it ? I consider them to be proven strong characters and from what I've read they both feel more comfortable for it ! I had no idea Hitzlsperger was even gay, though now you mention it there was something in the media about it a while back. That's how much of an issue it was for me. Completely forgot. Mind you, add that to the Nigel Owens thing earlier, and maybe it's just my memory generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Must be like looking in the mirror, Turks. He's an impressive looking man, much like myself. I have the upmost respect for a man that looks good, dresses well, in good shape, conducts himself with a bit of class. There is a huge difference between fashion and style. This picture sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 He's an impressive looking man, much like myself. I have the upmost respect for a man that looks good, dresses well, in good shape, conducts himself with a bit of class. There is a huge difference between fashion and style. This picture sums it up. Has Dean Martin got an umbrella hat on in that picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 He's an impressive looking man, much like myself. I have the upmost respect for a man that looks good, dresses well, in good shape, conducts himself with a bit of class. There is a huge difference between fashion and style. This picture sums it up. I agree, Turkish! I'm starting to see you in a whole different light now. I do like a man with a bit of class, and you clearly have a lot of style. If only there were more men like you around, then this forum would have the women flocking. It's obvious from reading a lot of posts on here that there are many men who have no style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 I agree, Turkish! I'm starting to see you in a whole different light now. I do like a man with a bit of class, and you clearly have a lot of style. If only there were more men like you around, then this forum would have the women flocking. It's obvious from reading a lot of posts on here that there are many men who have no style. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Not read the whole thread, but have they been named yet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Not read the whole thread, but have they been named yet ? Yes: #Removed by Moderator# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Unless the definition of a hate crime is clearly defined then the figures are largely meaningless IMO. They are only meaningless if you come from the standpoint that discrimination is not an issue for those people. I agree that the word "hate" is not ideal. Nor is "phobic." I don't think that people who discrimination against others have a fear of them necessarily. Hate Crime is a catch all term. For recording purposes religious crimes are recorded separately to those against gay, transsexual and bi sexual cases. They are categorised when the case contains clear elements relating to a persons sexuality, religious persuasion etc. If a person is murdered because they are gay it will be recorded as a "hate crime." If a person is bullied because they are gay it will be recorded as a "hate crime." The stats are meaningful because they show the amount of recorded cases specific in that category. I say recorded because clearly, just as in sexual assaults, common assaults and many other crimes, they don't all get reported. To dismiss the figure just because some might be false is misleading. The figures relate to successful prosecutions - or at least the figures that I used to produce when I worked for the CPS did. Unsuccessful prosecutions were recorded but not used in the stats. It is very easy for people who don't suffer from discrimination to sit around and pretend it is not an issue. Clearly it wont be for them. The important feedback comes from those who don't wont to come out because they are afraid of the reaction. The fact that there are hardly any openly gay men in football tells you what you need to know when compared to gay men in other sports and other professions. My osteopath is gay and changed his name when he came out because he was worried about how it would affect his business. This was only a few years ago. If gay people are saying that they still suffer from discrimination then who are we to say that they are not? To dispute the figures of crimes committed against them is discrimination. If someone has a criminal act committed against them just because of their sexuality or gender then that is a "hate crime." The figures are only meaningless for those who wish to pretend that these things do not exist on the scale that they clearly do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 He's an impressive looking man, much like myself. I have the upmost respect for a man that looks good, dresses well, in good shape, conducts himself with a bit of class. There is a huge difference between fashion and style. This picture sums it up. Sammy Davis Jnr was gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 :( It's all very well doing a sad face, UJ, but the reality is, if there were more men like Turkish around, then less women would have to resort to feminism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 It's all very well doing a sad face, UJ, but the reality is, if there were more men like Turkish around, then less women would have to resort to feminism. Would get into spiteful fights over the pore cleanser and hand cream though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 It's all very well doing a sad face, UJ, but the reality is, if there were more men like Turkish around, then less women would have to resort to feminism. Or lesbianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Or lesbianism. People don't 'resort' to homosexuality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Or lesbianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 People don't 'resort' to homosexuality Some might? Some men resort to being gay in prison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Some might? Some men resort to being gay in prison? Or simply discover the joys of bumming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 You seem a Shawshank Redemption kinda guy Goaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 You seem a Shawshank Redemption kinda guy Goaty. Nah, more Midnight Express. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Good film. Papillon or Angel Heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Good film. Papillon or Angel Heart? Both good films. I'm a fan of Alan Parker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 30 October, 2015 Share Posted 30 October, 2015 Both good films. I'm a fan of Alan Parker. A-haaaa! Jokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 Two points: 1. There are no doubt plenty which weren't reported but there were also plenty recorded which may have been false, so you would have to take both into account. 2. I just did a quick search for the demographics of gay people in the UK, which came up with 3.6m, roughly 6%, which seems reasonable. 6,000 'hate crimes' against 3.6m people is pretty much 1 in 600 people or less than 0.2% of the gay population. Hardly endemic of homophobia. I see not a shred of actual evidence provided to support the first contention. Therefore, when there is no so-called 'false positive' statistical evidence provided then taking the above theory into ''account'' becomes more than a little problematic. As for the latter point, again a significant proportion of people in the 'LGBT' group report that they have personally experienced a homophobic incident within the last 12 months - a significant 1 in 10 people from this societal group report they were the victim of some form of physical assault. Impartial official estimates also show that there are in fact some 39,000 - not 6000 - reported and unreported homophobic crimes committed in this country per year. Furthermore, many Police Constabularies have reported that this problem is in fact increasing, rather than declining, in their force areas: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/26/rise-violent-homophobic-crimes-reported-police I dare say few would seriously question that Britain today is a far less prejudiced place that it certainly was in decades past. However, this picture some on here are seeking to paint of our society being a supremely tolerant and utterly safe place for minority groups to express themselves in would appear to be a debatable one at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 No one has said that Charlie, you are reaching once again. Also as you have failed to answer, what is the definition of a homophobic crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 No one has said that Charlie, you are reaching once again. Also as you have failed to answer, what is the definition of a homophobic crime? You have already been provided with a perfectly serviceable definition of homophobia and I see no good reason to repeat myself. You appear to be suffering from what is sometimes defined in Parliament as being 'wedded to your position'; i.e. you are so committed to your line of argument that you're just not listening to the evidence anymore or indeed much interested in debating the issue in a reasonable manner. This ailment can infect any of us of course, but when the position you 'wed' yourself to is fundamentally wrong-headed then it becomes a bit of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 WOW. Parliament really gives over it's time to having a debate about hypo? Respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 WOW. Parliament really gives over it's time to having a debate about hypo? Respect. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 31 October, 2015 Share Posted 31 October, 2015 Eh? I couldn't have put it any better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now