Gay Premier Leauge players?

[Special K]

I think it can only be a good thing. I remember poor old Justin Fashanu, disowned by his brother for being gay and vilified by the football "community", which may have contributed to his suicide. And Fowler, goading Le Saux for apparently being gay (plainly wasn't) because he read the Guardian and didn't spend his downtime looking at tits in the sun. The fact that no English footballers have felt able to come out is probably because they feel they can't because of the undercurrent of isolation they would probably feel, but in order for acceptance to progress, then someone will need to declare their homosexuality and should be supported. The positive impact on rugby with Gareth Thomas and Nigel Owens coming out has proved that it can help and I see no reason why the same couldn't happen in football.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You're being ironic, surely?

 

I'm happy to say I'm not. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in general, but in my life (and my families) it doesn't. But then I'm not a gay, black woman, so not the target audience.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Nothing openly homophobic that I would consider terms of homophobic abuse no. Shouting f*cking fag at someone for example. Never seen that. Maybe you would have a lower tolerance for something you would consider homophobic?

 

How about when I joked with my mate that his black boyfriend had blowjob lips? Homophobic?

 

Do you know what, I think the last time I heard the word faggot was 2008, when the BBC and radio stations decided to bleep it out of the 'Fairytale of NY'.

[Lighthouse]

According to some it's rife in society but if it is then it's not something I've encountered in the past decade.

 

I'm going to echo both of your comments. The last time I can remember something along those lines, aside from an EDL rally or Abu Qatada speech, was probably the Cup game against Pompey in 2005. The sound effects mic picked up some idiot making a monkey noise at Linvoy Primus, for which he was unanimously slated by other fans and the media.

 

Yeah the press will find isolated cases and make them out to be a massive issue but that's what they do. Take isolated incidents are report them as being indicative of society. Nobody reported the couple of thousand Chelsea fans who went to Paris, had a couple of pints of French lager with their black, white and Asian Parisian counterparts and had a friendly chat about Zlatan's nose.

 

I honestly can't remember the last time I witness an incident in person where I felt sorry for someone because of their skin, gender or sexuality. Most people Ive met either don't make an issue of it or just make light of it.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Nothing openly homophobic that I would consider terms of homophobic abuse no. Shouting f*cking fag at someone for example. Never seen that.

 

It would seem then that your definition of what constitutes homophobia is not quite the same one as most reasonable people I think would agree with.

 

Like many other offences homophobia takes on many forms and exhibits differing degrees of malice. This can range from mild somewhat ''jokey'' jibes in the workplace, to the (offensive) lyrics of certain rap songs, or even serious physical assault on occasion. These are all different spots of a spectrum of prejudice.

 

But if you still seek to question this reality (for some reason that I can only guess at) then you can look up the stats yourself if you like. However, the fact is that the most recent UK Crime Survey [for England and Wales only] showed some 39,000 recorded homophobic 'hate crime' incidents over the 2012-2013 period. The survey also reveals that eight in ten LGBT people have been verbally abused or harassed, with a statistically significant one in ten suffering actual physical assault. In reality of course these statistics may well under-report the full extent of the problem due to the fact that some LGBT people are reluctant to register incidents with the police for obvious reasons.

 

Therefore the 'homophobia does not really exist' line you have been pursuing on here for two days now really doesn't hold a lot of water does it?

[Coxford_lou]

I'm happy to say I'm not. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in general, but in my life (and my families) it doesn't. But then I'm not a gay, black woman, so not the target audience.

 

Exactly. One quick search on YouTube will give plenty of evidence that the issue is still out there.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Exactly. One quick search on YouTube will give plenty of evidence that the issue is still out there.

 

Yes, but they tend to be the exceptions to the rule, the Eva incident, the Chelsea subway incident, that woman on the bus. If they weren't out of the ordinary they wouldn't be posted as it wouldn't be seen as an issue.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yes, but they tend to be the exceptions to the rule, the Eva incident, the Chelsea subway incident, that woman on the bus. If they weren't out of the ordinary they wouldn't be posted as it wouldn't be seen as an issue.

 

I expect that lynchings in the old American South were very much an 'exception to the rule' when measured against the everyday experience of routine prejudice black people suffered from at the time. Surely the fact that an experience may be exceptional does not therefore mean that it is also insignificant and not in need of addressing.

[Dig Dig]

It would seem then that your definition of what constitutes homophobia is not quite the same one as most reasonable people I think would agree with.

 

Like many other offences homophobia takes on many forms and exhibits differing degrees of malice. This can range from mild somewhat ''jokey'' jibes in the workplace, to the (offensive) lyrics of certain rap songs, or even serious physical assault on occasion. These are all different spots of a spectrum of prejudice.

 

But if you still seek to question this reality (for some reason that I can only guess at) then you can look up the stats yourself if you like. However, the fact is that the most recent UK Crime Survey [for England and Wales only] showed some 39,000 recorded homophobic 'hate crime' incidents over the 2012-2013 period. The survey also reveals that eight in ten LGBT people have been verbally abused or harassed, with a statistically significant one in ten suffering actual physical assault. In reality of course these statistics may well under-report the full extent of the problem due to the fact that some LGBT people are reluctant to register incidents with the police for obvious reasons.

 

Therefore the 'homophobia does not really exist' line you have been pursuing on here for two days now really doesn't hold a lot of water does it?

 

Yea but Hypo has a gay friend with a BLACK boyfriend so what does anyone else know? He is the authority on that rare phenomenon called homophobia.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I expect that lynchings in the old American South were very much an 'exception to the rule' when measured against the everyday experience of routine prejudice black people suffered from at the time. Surely the fact that an experience may be exceptional does not therefore mean that it is also insignificant and not in need of addressing.

 

And where did I say it didn't? However, to say these things are commonplace in society today, is an exaggeration and a myth perpetuated by the 'appalled' brigade. Because when it fully disappears, what will they have to get appalled about?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

And where did I say it didn't? However, to say these things are commonplace in society today, is an exaggeration and a myth perpetuated by the 'appalled' brigade. Because when it fully disappears, what will they have to get appalled about?

 

I can only say that I just don't recognise this depiction of a homophobia-free British society you seem to live in. Perhaps some on here lead relatively sheltered lives - lucky you - but whenever I'm out and about in society I personally encounter some degree of homophobic comment or attitude at least once a week on average I guess. I dare say that those who are unfortunate enough to be the targets of this form of prejudice probably experience this far more often than I do.

 

Again the UK Crime Survey shows that this is provable statistically and if that doesn't appal you then it probably should.

[hypochondriac]

It would seem then that your definition of what constitutes homophobia is not quite the same one as most reasonable people I think would agree with.

 

I disagree.

 

Like many other offences homophobia takes on many forms and exhibits differing degrees of malice. This can range from mild somewhat ''jokey'' jibes in the workplace, to the (offensive) lyrics of certain rap songs, or even serious physical assault on occasion. These are all different spots of a spectrum of prejudice

 

Again, context is key here. People push the boundaries with their mates all the time and I wouldn't consider that sort of thing homophobic, particularly because there is no malice involved. Serious physical assault is clearly homophobic if that is the reason for the assault, I don't think there is any dispute there.

 

But if you still seek to question this reality (for some reason that I can only guess at) then you can look up the stats yourself if you like. However, the fact is that the most recent UK Crime Survey [for England and Wales only] showed some 39,000 recorded homophobic 'hate crime' incidents over the 2012-2013 period. The survey also reveals that eight in ten LGBT people have been verbally abused or harassed, with a statistically significant one in ten suffering actual physical assault. In reality of course these statistics may well under-report the full extent of the problem due to the fact that some LGBT people are reluctant to register incidents with the police for obvious reasons.

 

Why are you lumping in transgender people here? What relevance does that have to the debate? That simply distorts the figures and how to we define 'hate crime?' Is it like that Jewish organisation in America that records anti-semitic hate crimes in things like pokemon cards? If someone overhears someone else on a bus calling their mate gay is that considered a hate crime? Are we talking about homophobic verbal abuse here or just abuse in general? Because if it's just verbal abuse then I think everyone has had a bit of that on occasion.

 

Therefore the 'homophobia does not really exist' line you have been pursuing on here for two days now really doesn't hold a lot of water does it?

 

​I don't think it exists to anything like the level you are trying to build it up as. For what reason I can only guess.

Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Yea but Hypo has a gay friend with a BLACK boyfriend so what does anyone else know? He is the authority on that rare phenomenon called homophobia.

 

I didn't say that and you know it. Pathetic from you as usual.

[hypochondriac]

I can only say that I just don't recognise this depiction of a homophobia-free British society you seem to live in. Perhaps some on here lead relatively sheltered lives - lucky you - but whenever I'm out and about in society I personally encounter some degree of homophobic comment or attitude at least once a week on average I guess. I dare say that those who are unfortunate enough to be the targets of this form of prejudice probably experience this far more often than I do.

 

Again the UK Crime Survey shows that this is provable statistically and if that doesn't appal you then it probably should.

 

And I don't recognise the homophobia riddled Britain that you describe. Perhaps you hang around with the wrong sort of people. I'm genuinely astounded that you see homophobia on a weekly basis and I hope you challenge it when you do come across it. What sort of homophobia do you see on a monthly basis? What UK crime survey are you referring to?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

​I don't think it exists to anything like the level you are trying to build it up as. For what reason I can only guess.

 

Of course you disagree - in the immortal words of Mandy-Rice Davis ''you would wouldn't you'' ...

 

The official 'LGBT' hate crime rate is quoted simply because that is how the statistics are gathered by government - there is no separate UK Homophobia only crime stat that I am aware of. Frankly, all victims who fall within this broad societal group seem to suffer comparable hate crime experiences.

 

I might also add here that it ill-becomes those who make a point of requesting evidence be provided to support a given supposition to then reject said evidence on grounds that seem entirely bogus to this commentator.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

And I don't recognise the homophobia riddled Britain that you describe. Perhaps you hang around with the wrong sort of people. I'm genuinely astounded that you see homophobia on a weekly basis and I hope you challenge it when you do come across it. What sort of homophobia do you see on a monthly basis? What UK crime survey are you referring to?

 

Well wriggle as you do, the fact is that homophobia is alive and well in our society. The people I ''hang around with'' are perfectly ordinary examples of the species that anyone might encounter in their everyday lives. Again you attempt to justify your argument by selecting a (oddly narrow) definition of what constitutes homophobia that many fair minded people would not agree with.

[hypochondriac]

Of course you disagree - in the immortal words of Mandy-Rice Davis ''you would wouldn't you'' ...

 

The official 'LGBT' hate crime rate is quoted simply because that is how the statistics are gathered by government - there is no separate UK Homophobia only crime stat that I am aware of. Frankly, all victims who fall within this broad societal group seem to suffer comparable hate crime experiences.

 

I might also add here that it ill-becomes those who make a point of requesting evidence be provided to support a given supposition to then reject said evidence on grounds that seem entirely bogus to this commentator.

 

really? I'm sure I read in a few articles that instance of transgender abuse were much more prevalent in society. I could be wrong though but I have heard a number of transgender campaigners complain that they have been lumped in with everyone else and that it is a very separate and distinct problem so not comparable with gay and lesbian groups.

 

Where did I request that you provide evidence? I simply said that it's certainly not something I have encountered and definitely not on a weekly basis. I'd be interested to know the sort of weekly encounters you have since it would help me to see what you consider homophobic. Rather like when Kelvins right glove on here was saying that Britain is a racist and sexist society, I tend to believe that the vast majority are accepting and tolerant of others and that in many cases those who truly believe we are a racist, sexist and homophobic society are the ones who go out of their way to look for these things so that they can be offended. That's not to say there are some unenlightened groups of people who may shout abuse or beat up homosexuals because of who they are attracted to and I agree that never will have any place in society. We will never have a perfect society free of all prejudice due to human nature, but we've come a long way since the seventies and particularly when you see attitudes in countries such as Russia. I believe that in the main we are a tolerant nation who are generally accepting of others.

[sadoldgit]

That isn't true. The fact that no player is "out" could be for any number of reasons and doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. Maybe they just feel it isn't anyone else business and they don't want to have a big media sing and dance about it so choose to stay quiet. Fair enough.

 

I am not sure that you can say that with a measure of certainty Hypo. Look at what happened to Justin Fashanu. I know it was a while back but the fact that it is hard to think of anyone else who has "come out" in football since then is significant. It happens in other sports but not in football. There has to be a reason more than they just think it is no one else's business. When you know you are going to have your face splashed all over the tabloids that is a good enough reason not to go public in many people's opinions. Not to mention the stick from the terraces and the "banter" from opposition players. Fans think it is funny to make hissing noises at Spuds fans (because as we all know the Holocaust was really funny) and make jibes at United over the Munich Air Disaster. What about Victoria Beckham taking it up the b*m? Taking the **** out of someone because they happen to be gay, just because we are supposed to be "tolerant" now, is hardly going to put them off making the players life hell week in week out. You'd have to be very tough skinned to put yourself through that.

[hypochondriac]

Well wriggle as you do, the fact is that homophobia is alive and well in our society. The people I ''hang around with'' are perfectly ordinary examples of the species that anyone might encounter in their everyday lives. Again you attempt to justify your argument by selecting a (oddly narrow) definition of what constitutes homophobia that many fair minded people would not agree with.

 

I see you have again refused to say what weekly homophobia you see? What sort of stuff is this that you see and which you think is homophobic? I'm genuinely interested. Where in my answer above have I offered a definition of homophobia? I simply asked what YOU considered to be homophobia, I didn't give my own definition. My suspicion is that whilst we both see the extreme stuff as homophobia, it's the milder things where we would disagree and I would argue that dependent on what that milder stuff is (taking into account what I said earlier about context etc), it does not necessarily support the opinion that homophobia is running rampant through British society.

[Turkish]

I am not sure that you can say that with a measure of certainty Hypo. Look at what happened to Justin Fashanu. I know it was a while back but the fact that it is hard to think of anyone else who has "come out" in football since then is significant. It happens in other sports but not in football. There has to be a reason more than they just think it is no one else's business. When you know you are going to have your face splashed all over the tabloids that is a good enough reason not to go public in many people's opinions. Not to mention the stick from the terraces and the "banter" from opposition players. Fans think it is funny to make hissing noises at Spuds fans (because as we all know the Holocaust was really funny) and make jibes at United over the Munich Air Disaster. What about Victoria Beckham taking it up the b*m? Taking the **** out of someone because they happen to be gay, just because we are supposed to be "tolerant" now, is hardly going to put them off making the players life hell week in week out. You'd have to be very tough skinned to put yourself through that.

 

I'd say that's more of a compliment than something to be upset by.

[sadoldgit]

I'd say that's more of a compliment than something to be upset by.

 

Just thinking the same thing myself Turks!

[sadoldgit]

I see you have again refused to say what weekly homophobia you see? What sort of stuff is this that you see and which you think is homophobic? I'm genuinely interested. Where in my answer above have I offered a definition of homophobia? I simply asked what YOU considered to be homophobia, I didn't give my own definition. My suspicion is that whilst we both see the extreme stuff as homophobia, it's the milder things where we would disagree and I would argue that dependent on what that milder stuff is (taking into account what I said earlier about context etc), it does not necessarily support the opinion that homophobia is running rampant through British society.

 

I think we use the word out of context. Surely homophobia means a fear of gay sexuality? We are talking about people using someone's sexuality to belittle or bully them.

[hypochondriac]

I am not sure that you can say that with a measure of certainty Hypo. Look at what happened to Justin Fashanu. I know it was a while back but the fact that it is hard to think of anyone else who has "come out" in football since then is significant. It happens in other sports but not in football. There has to be a reason more than they just think it is no one else's business. When you know you are going to have your face splashed all over the tabloids that is a good enough reason not to go public in many people's opinions. Not to mention the stick from the terraces and the "banter" from opposition players. Fans think it is funny to make hissing noises at Spuds fans (because as we all know the Holocaust was really funny) and make jibes at United over the Munich Air Disaster. What about Victoria Beckham taking it up the b*m? Taking the **** out of someone because they happen to be gay, just because we are supposed to be "tolerant" now, is hardly going to put them off making the players life hell week in week out. You'd have to be very tough skinned to put yourself through that.

 

It may well be the case that people haven't come out because they fear homophobic abuse (though I think a lot has changed in seventeen years.) I don't know but then I don't think anyone else other than the gay players know either so to say automatically it's because loads of people are homophobes and scaring them into silence is incorrect IMO.The tabloid thing you mention is a good point and my suspicion is that this is one of the main reasons why people do not want to be the first to be open about their sexuality. All the stuff about how the crowds and others would react if someone did come out as gay is just specualation and we simply don't know what the reaction would be. I strongly suspect though that the vast majority of people either wouldn't care or would be respectful. It will be interesting to see what viewpoint is proven to be right when it finally does happen.

[hypochondriac]

I think we use the word out of context. Surely homophobia means a fear of gay sexuality? We are talking about people using someone's sexuality to belittle or bully them.

 

So do you see weekly instances of gay people being bullied because of their sexuality on the streets of Britain? I'm really surprised if that is the case. Your definition there I think would make it much more narrow than for example having a joke with a friend. Most people I meet tend to keep themselves to themselves and are usually just normal pleasant individuals. Even the rude idiots aren't going around bullying people for being gay.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I can only say that I just don't recognise this depiction of a homophobia-free British society you seem to live in. Perhaps some on here lead relatively sheltered lives - lucky you - but whenever I'm out and about in society I personally encounter some degree of homophobic comment or attitude at least once a week on average I guess. I dare say that those who are unfortunate enough to be the targets of this form of prejudice probably experience this far more often than I do.

 

Again the UK Crime Survey shows that this is provable statistically and if that doesn't appal you then it probably should.

 

To be honest the stats mean nothing unless quantified against other crimes.

 

I certainly don't live a sheltered life, no, but I also don't live in Tower Hamlets. I lead a very normal life, living in normal places and spending time with normal people.

[sadoldgit]

So do you see weekly instances of gay people being bullied because of their sexuality on the streets of Britain? I'm really surprised if that is the case. Your definition there I think would make it much more narrow than for example having a joke with a friend. Most people I meet tend to keep themselves to themselves and are usually just normal pleasant individuals. Even the rude idiots aren't going around bullying people for being gay.

 

No I don't but we are talking about football here, specifically professional football. I don't hear people taking the **** out of the Munich Air Crash or the gassing of Jews in the pub or on the streets but it still goes on on the terraces and that is our issue here - footballers not coming out and why? You can rightly say that it could be because it is no one else's business. You could also surmise that they don't fancy the back lash either. Gay people have come out in all kind of sports and other fields of life but very few, in fact hardly any, in football. There has to be a good reason for that.

[norwaysaint]

Have some of you people really not heard the use of the word "gay" as an insult? I often hear it used that way, "Don't be so gay." is pretty common. Don't you think that the most common word for homosexuality being used as a synonym for stupid, crap, embarrassing and other negative things is going to make things pretty tough for many people who aren't sure how their homosexuality will be accepted?

[hypochondriac]

No I don't but we are talking about football here, specifically professional football. I don't hear people taking the **** out of the Munich Air Crash or the gassing of Jews in the pub or on the streets but it still goes on on the terraces and that is our issue here - footballers not coming out and why? You can rightly say that it could be because it is no one else's business. You could also surmise that they don't fancy the back lash either. Gay people have come out in all kind of sports and other fields of life but very few, in fact hardly any, in football. There has to be a good reason for that.

 

I agree but the point is that we don't know the reasons so we shouldn't automatically assume it's because we are a country of homophobes oppressing gay footballers.

[sadoldgit]

I agree but the point is that we don't know the reasons so we shouldn't automatically assume it's because we are a country of homophobes oppressing gay footballers.

 

No we cant assume anything, but as I say, there has to be a reason for it because a) by the law of averages a number of professional footballers are gay and b) they are keeping quite about it. You don't have to be homophobic to make a gay person's life difficult. You just have to be a tw*t and as you say, we all know that the terraces are full of tw*ts!

[scotty]

Have some of you people really not heard the use of the word "gay" as an insult? I often hear it used that way, "Don't be so gay." is pretty common. Don't you think that the most common word for homosexuality being used as a synonym for stupid, crap, embarrassing and other negative things is going to make things pretty tough for many people who aren't sure how their homosexuality will be accepted?

 

Who decided that the word "gay" was to become the most common word for homosexuality? Was it a largely heterosexual group that introduced that connotation of the word to the language?

[sadoldgit]

Have some of you people really not heard the use of the word "gay" as an insult? I often hear it used that way, "Don't be so gay." is pretty common. Don't you think that the most common word for homosexuality being used as a synonym for stupid, crap, embarrassing and other negative things is going to make things pretty tough for many people who aren't sure how their homosexuality will be accepted?

 

I agree NS. We are still hung up in this country about what other people do as consenting adults behind closed doors. It wasnt that long ago that the Sunday papers were full of naughty vicar stories and the tabloids are still peddling rubbish about celebrity sh*gs now. Add same sex canoodlings and you hit the jackpot. As someone posted earlier, people know it is not PC to say things that are perceived to be "anti-gay" so you don't hear it so much - but I have heard "gay" used in the contexts you describe and still get the feeling that we deal with a different race better than we deal with a different sexuality.

[sadoldgit]

Who decided that the word "gay" was to become the most common word for homosexuality? Was it a largely heterosexual group that introduced that connotation of the word to the language?[/Q[/i]

 

I could be wrong but wasn't the gay community themselves after getting fed up with all of the less pleasant terms they were having to deal with?

[hypochondriac]

No we cant assume anything, but as I say, there has to be a reason for it because a) by the law of averages a number of professional footballers are gay and b) they are keeping quite about it. You don't have to be homophobic to make a gay person's life difficult. You just have to be a tw*t and as you say, we all know that the terraces are full of tw*ts!

 

Probably a fair comment. My main beef is with those who paint Britain as some sort of racist, homophobic and sexist hotbed when really that's not the Britain I or I suspect many others recognise.

Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac

[scotty]

Who decided that the word "gay" was to become the most common word for homosexuality? Was it a largely heterosexual group that introduced that connotation of the word to the language?[/Q[/i]

 

I could be wrong but wasn't the gay community themselves after getting fed up with all of the less pleasant terms they were having to deal with?

 

Yes, it was. I don't see why it should be considered a term of abuse, which is what norway was suggesting.

[Hatch]

The thousands of people shouting from the rooftops, 'I don't care' wounds me up no end.

 

99% of them are doing that so they look cool , with it and right on. Just shut up , accept it and carry on.

[Batman]

The thousands of people shouting from the rooftops, 'I don't care' wounds me up no end.

 

99% of them are doing that so they look cool , with it and right on. Just shut up , accept it and carry on.

 

exactly that.

so many will HAVE to show their support for whoever tells people they are gay

 

those hipsters will probably brand normal people as homophobic because they couldnt care less if someone has come out or not

[Dig Dig]

So do you see weekly instances of gay people being bullied because of their sexuality on the streets of Britain? I'm really surprised if that is the case. Your definition there I think would make it much more narrow than for example having a joke with a friend. Most people I meet tend to keep themselves to themselves and are usually just normal pleasant individuals. Even the rude idiots aren't going around bullying people for being gay.

 

You're looking for the most overt examples but the reality is that forms of discrimination can be very subversive and as I've said earlier, each individual will have different experiences and their own interpretation of possible reactions to coming out. I haven't seen anyone suggest that Britain is a hotbed of homophobia, racism etc as we're a pretty liberal Country by other standards yet lets not pretend that it's not significant enough for people to have reservations about the impact being openly gay could have on their lives. It all depends on circumstance. A footballer, builder or soldier as examples will have more reservations than many other people in society due to historical context. You shouldn't need examples of people being openly abused in the streets to understand that.

[hypochondriac]

You're looking for the most overt examples but the reality is that forms of discrimination can be very subversive and as I've said earlier, each individual will have different experiences and their own interpretation of possible reactions to coming out. I haven't seen anyone suggest that Britain is a hotbed of homophobia, racism etc as we're a pretty liberal Country by other standards yet lets not pretend that it's not significant enough for people to have reservations about the impact being openly gay could have on their lives. It all depends on circumstance. A footballer, builder or soldier as examples will have more reservations than many other people in society due to historical context. You shouldn't need examples of people being openly abused in the streets to understand that.

 

I'm not looking for the most overt examples, I was using sadoldgit's definition and asking what examples other people had seen, particularly because some people are saying they see examples on a weekly basis. Some posters on this thread are saying that homophobia is a huge problem in Britain and all I was asking for were examples of the homophobia they see so frequently. If the answer is that homophobia is when any gay person is offended by a remark or comment then I disagree.

 

As we already discussed, footballers may have reservations about being openly gay for a host of reasons and not necessarily anything to do with fear of abuse. It's a personal choice and they will have their own reasons.

Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac

[oldskoolsi]

How do we know there are large numbers of gay people who want to come out but don't because of the backlash? We just don't do we.

 

I never said anything about large numbers. However I do believe that, purely on percentages, there are some gay footballers. I only know of one english footballer who came out and he killed himself. Whether all gay footballers want to be publicly gay, I don't know but don't think all want to be privately gay. So why are they?

[sadoldgit]

 

Yes, it was. I don't see why it should be considered a term of abuse, which is what norway was suggesting.

 

I think Norway was referring to the fact that the term is often used in a pejorative sense. If you say that someone is gay because they are that is just stating a fact. If you call someone gay because of something they wear or do or act then isn't that using the term as a negative?

[hypochondriac]

I never said anything about large numbers. However I do believe that, purely on percentages, there are some gay footballers. I only know of one english footballer who came out and he killed himself. Whether all gay footballers want to be publicly gay, I don't know but don't think all want to be privately gay. So why are they?

 

Of course there are some gay footballers. I'm sure there are some gay footballers who would like to be open about it just as there will be some who wish to be private. At the risk of repeating myself, we don't know the reasons why though do we? I don't think we should leap to the assumption that it's because we are a homophobic society. I don't think that's true and it's just as likely to be other factors IMO.

[sadoldgit]

I'm not looking for the most overt examples, I was using sadoldgit's definition and asking what examples other people had seen, particularly because some people are saying they see examples on a weekly basis. Some posters on this thread are saying that homophobia is a huge problem in Britain and all I was asking for were examples of the homophobia they see so frequently. If the answer is that homophobia is when any gay person is offended by a remark or comment then I disagree.

 

As we already discussed, footballers may have reservations about being openly gay for a host of reasons and not necessarily anything to do with fear of abuse. It's a personal choice and they will have their own reasons.

 

They will have their own reasons. And if those reasons are because they are afraid of the reaction they will get, then isn't that an issue that needs to be addressed. I believe that The Mirror says that two players will "come out" next season. I can only assume that they are leaving it a while so that we can all brace ourselves for the revelations. If they weren't so worried about the reaction, why not come out now?

[Lighthouse]

I think Norway was referring to the fact that the term is often used in a pejorative sense. If you say that someone is gay because they are that is just stating a fact. If you call someone gay because of something they wear or do or act then isn't that using the term as a negative?

 

The was an episode of South Park where they satirised a similar situation and had the word 'fag' changed in the dictionary from a homosexual to a douche bag on a motorbike.

 

I think a lot of people just say gay out of habit from when they were at school. If someone says, "my car is being gay it won't start!" they aren't aiming any abuse at homosexuals but somehow that word has taken on a new meaning. It has become insulting without actually referring to someone's sexuality, a bit like fag.

 

It would be good if people didn't use it like that and I personally don't but I think gay people need to recognise that in this context, 'gay' isn't referring to them.

[hypochondriac]

They will have their own reasons. And if those reasons are because they are afraid of the reaction they will get, then isn't that an issue that needs to be addressed. I believe that The Mirror says that two players will "come out" next season. I can only assume that they are leaving it a while so that we can all brace ourselves for the revelations. If they weren't so worried about the reaction, why not come out now?

 

Maybe they don't want time in the limelight? Maybe they want to get their affairs in order before being in the limelight in that way? We don't know.

[Dig Dig]

Maybe they don't want time in the limelight? Maybe they want to get their affairs in order before being in the limelight in that way? We don't know.

 

Maybe maybe maybe maybe....maybe, just maybe, some have wanted to come out but have been fearful of negative reactions from fans, managers, team mates, sponsors etc etc whether legitimate or not and regardless of you not seeing any homophobia in decades and having a gay mate with a black boyfriend and all. Maybe you can at least acknowledge that this will undoubtedly be the case in some situations. Maybe.

[shirleysfc]

Just as in some cases the media follow what is popular, the media also set the agenda. If they decide that it's a big deal and something of interest then suddenly that's what a lot of people will believe because they listen to what the media tells them.

 

Hang on, aren't you always saying the exact opposite on threads about politics? If the public are clever enough to disregard what is written in the left/right influenced media and make their own minds up about politics, then why can't they do the same with this?

[hypochondriac]

Maybe maybe maybe maybe....maybe, just maybe, some have wanted to come out but have been fearful of negative reactions from fans, managers, team mates, sponsors etc etc whether legitimate or not and regardless of you not seeing any homophobia in decades and having a gay mate with a black boyfriend and all. Maybe you can at least acknowledge that this will undoubtedly be the case in some situations. Maybe.

 

It could be but there isn't really any way of knowing if it is a widespread problem, short of a study which surveys footballers to investigate. I'm not sure why you have a problem with the word maybe, it just shows that when we are discussing the motivations for gay footballers we really don't know a lot so best not to jump to conclusions. I used the gay friend comment to underline the fact that context is key with 'hate crimes' so why you keep bringing it up I have no idea. Do you have a problem with people having gay friends?

Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Hang on, aren't you always saying the exact opposite on threads about politics? If the public are clever enough to disregard what is written in the left/right influenced media and make their own minds up about politics, then why can't they do the same with this?

 

People can make their own minds up but if the media make a big song and dance about something it gives the illusion that it's a super big and important thing when it isn't really. Good to see you read what I type though

Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac

[The9]

Do you know what, I think the last time I heard the word faggot was 2008, when the BBC and radio stations decided to bleep it out of the 'Fairytale of NY'.

 

And then reinstate it, after loads of people complained that it just drew attention to it.

[The9]

I seem to recall various Saints forum friends of mine have taken to using "ghey" when written so it is clearly a different word with a different meaning to a perjorative use of a word which means homosexual. Sorted?