sadoldgit Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I'm not saying that the average football fan is blessed with much intelligence tbf. Ain't that the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Ain't that the truth! But that's why intent is important. Clearly the average football fan isn't intending to shout homophobic abuse at Brighton fans. It's why if someone did come out there would be a load of standing ovations and then everyone would just get on with their lives. Because the vast majority of football fans are not homophobic just like the vast majority are not racist just like the rest of society. Certainly in this country anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 And the vast majority didn't used to get involved in fights in the 1970s either but they happened all the same. There is always a minority that spoil if for the rest. And just because they might not be homophobic or racist some will still make unacceptable remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I'm got a sneaky feeling that one plays for us. No idea why, or any inside info, but just a feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBizzier69 Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Might sound a bit cynical, but coming out wouldn't harm the players chances of international honours (provided they're a top player of course) and would be an excellent PR exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 And the vast majority didn't used to get involved in fights in the 1970s either but they happened all the same. There is always a minority that spoil if for the rest. And just because they might not be homophobic or racist some will still make unacceptable remarks. What do you mean? As an aside to a friend? Or screamed at the top of their lungs from the stands? Because if you mean the latter, how often does that happen nowadays in English football? The skates got done for racism like that a few weeks back and it made the news because it is so rare. There would be no greater instances of homophobic against a gay man than there are instances of racism against a black man. In this country it's very rare now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 There are always going to be a few kn*bbers in a group of 30,000 people. If you get upset by half a dosen people making offensive remarks about something in a crowd that size, I would suggest you need thicker skin. A couple of idiots in row 15 yelling "poofta!" isn't going to hurt anyone and they will soon get chucked out and banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Oh at my age I'm seldom to be seen in pubs and never at EDL rallies my friend. I must repeat that in my personal experience homophobia is still quite commonplace in this nation. I will concede however that perhaps if you spend most of your time surrounded by the younger generation then you might form a different opinion on that. I work in FE and it's fair to say that youngsters couldn't give a toss about folks sexuality, colour or religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldskoolsi Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The fact it's still referred to as coming out is part of the problem. It implies that gay people have to make a big show of announcing their sexuality. Why should people have to make this big announcement that they are gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 (edited) There are always going to be a few kn*bbers in a group of 30,000 people. If you get upset by half a dosen people making offensive remarks about something in a crowd that size, I would suggest you need thicker skin. A couple of idiots in row 15 yelling "poofta!" isn't going to hurt anyone and they will soon get chucked out and banned. Well yeah, and that was the argument used against Eva Carneiro as well. "Need to get a thicker skin" blah blah. I say, unless you've experienced it yourself, it's hard to take your suggestion seriously. Edited 26 October, 2015 by Coxford_lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The fact it's still referred to as coming out is part of the problem. It implies that gay people have to make a big show of announcing their sexuality. Why should people have to make this big announcement that they are gay? I agree. But I can also see the positives, especially for kids going through a similar experience. Until being gay is completely normalised across all aspects of life (including school education) how can we fairly say it's a fuss over nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I'm got a sneaky feeling that one plays for us. No idea why, or any inside info, but just a feeling. I hope it's not JWP ,otherwise I could be the first to suffer a ban . I moan and shout about him not getting stuck in and poncing about like a big fairy , every time he plays . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I work in FE and it's fair to say that youngsters couldn't give a toss about folks sexuality, colour or religion. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Well, I hope that has sufficiently answered your question, W9Saint! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 What do you mean? As an aside to a friend? Or screamed at the top of their lungs from the stands? Because if you mean the latter, how often does that happen nowadays in English football? The skates got done for racism like that a few weeks back and it made the news because it is so rare. There would be no greater instances of homophobic against a gay man than there are instances of racism against a black man. In this country it's very rare now. I agree that is not as widespread as it was but the fact that a tabloid newspaper is making a thing about it and the fact that we are discussing it here shows that it is still an issue. If it weren't a problem the players, whoever they are, wouldn't be talking about coming out, they would be "out" already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I agree. But I can also see the positives, especially for kids going through a similar experience. Until being gay is completely normalised across all aspects of life (including school education) how can we fairly say it's a fuss over nothing. In what way are homosexual children educated differently to straight children? Well yeah, and that was the argument used against Eva Carneiro as well. "Need to get a thicker skin" blah blah. I say, unless you've experienced it yourself, it's hard to take your suggestion seriously. I can confirm I have experienced a stranger shouting something unpleasant at me at some point in my life. I can't imagine living a life of denial and sexual isolation was in some way better. I'm not sure how Eva is really relevant to this. She fell out with that tool Mourinho and left the club. As far as I'm aware the club weren't bullying her for being a woman and the majority of people are on her side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 In what way are homosexual children educated differently to straight children? I can confirm I have experienced a stranger shouting something unpleasant at me at some point in my life. I can't imagine living a life of denial and sexual isolation was in some way better. I'm not sure how Eva is really relevant to this. She fell out with that tool Mourinho and left the club. As far as I'm aware the club weren't bullying her for being a woman and the majority of people are on her side. Eh? I'm referencing being gay being completely normalised. I'm saying if it's not completely normalised within our society (sex education being an example) then it's inevitable kids have to go through the experience of coming out. Therefore a footballer doing so is a positive thing. On Eva, I was referencing when she got crowd abuse. A few on here said similar - it's only a couple people, she should get a thicker skin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Just watched the Simpson where Nelson Muntz said to Milhouse that the giant pumpkin was really gay. Homophobic??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I agree that is not as widespread as it was but the fact that a tabloid newspaper is making a thing about it and the fact that we are discussing it here shows that it is still an issue. If it weren't a problem the players, whoever they are, wouldn't be talking about coming out, they would be "out" already. That isn't true. The fact that no player is "out" could be for any number of reasons and doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. Maybe they just feel it isn't anyone else business and they don't want to have a big media sing and dance about it so choose to stay quiet. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Eh? I'm referencing being gay being completely normalised. I'm saying if it's not completely normalised within our society (sex education being an example) then it's inevitable kids have to go through the experience of coming out. Therefore a footballer doing so is a positive thing. On Eva, I was referencing when she got crowd abuse. A few on here said similar - it's only a couple people, she should get a thicker skin... Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Mourinho/Hazard incident. If you just mean people singing "get your tits out" etc. then yeah I agree people need to stop. It's immature and something a 15 year old would probably be pleased with but is it any worse than calling the ref a w anchor? On the other hand, I can't imagine fans signing, "get your c*ck out for the lads," at a gay player, so it's a different situation really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Mourinho/Hazard incident. If you just mean people singing "get your tits out" etc. then yeah I agree people need to stop. It's immature and something a 15 year old would probably be pleased with but is it any worse than calling the ref a w anchor? On the other hand, I can't imagine fans signing, "get your c*ck out for the lads," at a gay player, so it's a different situation really. I'm not sure we're disagreeing over much. In fact the nuances we're arguing over probably aren't worth the effort we're putting into it. How about we agree to disagree? Let's make it a forum first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Just watched the Simpson where Nelson Muntz said to Milhouse that the giant pumpkin was really gay. Homophobic??? Does the fact that Nelson Muntz is a made up thick bully in a satirical cartoon not tell you something? You can come out with as many hypothetical, nuanced arguments as you like but the fact is that many people (and obviously footballers and sports people in general) aren't open about their sexuality for a reason and that reason isn't that everyone is universally fine with it, either directly within or outside of the sport itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The fact it's still referred to as coming out is part of the problem. It implies that gay people have to make a big show of announcing their sexuality. Why should people have to make this big announcement that they are gay? It's self-perpetuating. The fact nobody has (ever) done it makes it more and more significant when somebody does. Every gay player out there will be desperate to be the second to come out. Being the first is hard. I still can't get my head around the fact it's 2015 and we don't have any openly gay footballers. It blows my mind that we've allowed ourselves to have this culture for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Does the fact that Nelson Muntz is a made up thick bully in a satirical cartoon not tell you something? You can come out with as many hypothetical, nuanced arguments as you like but the fact is that many people (and obviously footballers and sports people in general) aren't open about their sexuality for a reason and that reason isn't that everyone is universally fine with it, either directly within or outside of the sport itself. How do you know what that reason is? Why are you talking on behalf of gay footballers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 It's self-perpetuating. The fact nobody has (ever) done it makes it more and more significant when somebody does. Every gay player out there will be desperate to be the second to come out. Being the first is hard. I still can't get my head around the fact it's 2015 and we don't have any openly gay footballers. It blows my mind that we've allowed ourselves to have this culture for so long. Why is anyone bothered? If they want to be openly gay then good for them. If they want to keep things as they are at the moment then that's OK too. It's none of my business and nor should it be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Well, I hope that has sufficiently answered your question, W9Saint! The sexy pic is back! Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The sexy pic is back! Yay! I got bored pretending to be a militant feminist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 How do you know what that reason is? Why are you talking on behalf of gay footballers? I never said what the reason is, but clearly there is one. Why are you talking on behalf of society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I never said what the reason is, but clearly there is one. Why are you talking on behalf of society? The reason could be as I mentioned earlier that they feel it's not really anyone's business and they don't want the media nonsense that will inevitably follow. So nothing to do with homophobia in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I got bored pretending to be a militant feminist. When did you stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The reason could be as I mentioned earlier that they feel it's not really anyone's business and they don't want the media nonsense that will inevitably follow. So nothing to do with homophobia in that case. The media nonsense will be because it's not really done, but the reason no one does it is because of the media nonsense. Is that the only thing or could it be that there is still a a fair bit of stigma attached to being gay, the extent of which depends on family, friends, your age, occupation etc etc. Everyones individual situation will be different but would you openly come out to tens of thousands of people who will use anything possible to ridicule given the chance or to a group of lads who you have to share a changing room with? You might decide that it just isn't worth it for a variety of reasons and that in some cases that may be because of fear of homophobia. To try and pretend otherwise is just bizarre really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 It's self-perpetuating. The fact nobody has (ever) done it makes it more and more significant when somebody does. Every gay player out there will be desperate to be the second to come out. Being the first is hard. I still can't get my head around the fact it's 2015 and we don't have any openly gay footballers. It blows my mind that we've allowed ourselves to have this culture for so long. I think it will be 'significant' for a couple of days. You know what they say; today's news - tomorrows chip wrapper. It will be news, in the media sense, whilst most readers and viewers wont actually give much of a sh*t. Then Wenger will say something about Mourinho or Utd will be linked to Messi or Karsten Janker will finally open that petting zoo with Rudi Skacel and the media will quickly move on to the next 'significant' story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 The media nonsense will be because it's not really done, but the reason no one does it is because of the media nonsense. Is that the only thing or could it be that there is still a a fair bit of stigma attached to being gay, the extent of which depends on family, friends, your age, occupation etc etc. Everyones individual situation will be different but would you openly come out to tens of thousands of people who will use anything possible to ridicule given the chance or to a group of lads who you have to share a changing room with? You might decide that it just isn't worth it for a variety of reasons and that in some cases that may be because of fear of homophobia. To try and pretend otherwise is just bizarre really. It might be because of homophobia but my opinion is that there are quite a few other reasons rather than just that. I'm not sure anyone has said that fear of homophobia may not be a reason but in my opinion - and the opinion of others - it isn't as widespread as some would have us believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 I think it will be 'significant' for a couple of days. You know what they say; today's news - tomorrows chip wrapper. It will be news, in the media sense, whilst most readers and viewers wont actually give much of a sh*t. Then Wenger will say something about Mourinho or Utd will be linked to Messi or Karsten Janker will finally open that petting zoo with Rudi Skacel and the media will quickly move on to the next 'significant' story. Yep. The sooner the better really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 they don't want the media nonsense that will inevitably follow. So nothing to do with homophobia in that case. Flat wrong. The media are interested because it will sell copies / power clickbait. If there was no interest there is no story. Much as its denied some people do care because they are bigoted, and another section dont rerally care but will happily seize the opportunity to barrack or sledge an opposition player relentlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 October, 2015 Share Posted 26 October, 2015 Flat wrong. The media are interested because it will sell copies / power clickbait. If there was no interest there is no story. Much as its denied some people do care because they are bigoted, and another section dont rerally care but will happily seize the opportunity to barrack or sledge an opposition player relentlessly. Just as in some cases the media follow what is popular, the media also set the agenda. If they decide that it's a big deal and something of interest then suddenly that's what a lot of people will believe because they listen to what the media tells them. Opposition players will be sledged relentlessly regardless of their sexuality orientation. I would be extremely surprised if large sections of support abuse a gay man for being gay just as black men no longer gets reams of abuse for being black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpb Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 I work in FE and it's fair to say that youngsters couldn't give a toss about folks sexuality, colour or religion. That observation really lifts the spirits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 Eh? I'm referencing being gay being completely normalised. I'm saying if it's not completely normalised within our society (sex education being an example) then it's inevitable kids have to go through the experience of coming out. Therefore a footballer doing so is a positive thing. On Eva, I was referencing when she got crowd abuse. A few on here said similar - it's only a couple people, she should get a thicker skin... Don't think that is the case. My kids are completely comfortable with having openly gay friends, male and female and are still at school age. There is definitely much more tolerance as TBH I was amazed that they openly gay whilst still in a school environment. Times they are a changing. Expecting it to be taught equally in sex education is ridiculous and as said the problem is being removed naturally by tolerance. That is about mainly educating about STDs and pregnancies. Hard enough for teachers to do that.. What level of detail would you expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 Most on this thread are talking about crowd reaction. Think the issue is far more the dressing room and the generally immature mocking that is rife. Doesn't lead to people wanting to be different. Whatever people say that people don't care it does take strong character to be openly gay. Approval from the Guardian leader, celebs on Twitter etc. won't be their main concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 (edited) Most on this thread are talking about crowd reaction. Think the issue is far more the dressing room and the generally immature mocking that is rife. Doesn't lead to people wanting to be different. Whatever people say that people don't care it does take strong character to be openly gay. Approval from the Guardian leader, celebs on Twitter etc. won't be their main concern. I suspect most team mates will have suspected anyway and the rest won't give a shiny shiete . We had a bloke at work who made a big fuss about coming out , and made a big announcement . He then got upset because most of us didn't care and the rest thought he batted for the other side anyway . It was the non event of the year , that then became an event because of his reaction to the fact that nobody thought it was a big deal . Edited 27 October, 2015 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 I hope it's not JWP ,otherwise I could be the first to suffer a ban . I moan and shout about him not getting stuck in and poncing about like a big fairy , every time he plays . No, and not wanting to be done for slander or anything but....RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldskoolsi Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 Why is anyone bothered? If they want to be openly gay then good for them. If they want to keep things as they are at the moment then that's OK too. It's none of my business and nor should it be. What about the ones who want to be openly gay but are afraid of the backlash? Until people in general and footballers in particular feel they wont be abused for their decisions it's not exactly a fair choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 Don't think that is the case. My kids are completely comfortable with having openly gay friends, male and female and are still at school age. There is definitely much more tolerance as TBH I was amazed that they openly gay whilst still in a school environment. Times they are a changing. Expecting it to be taught equally in sex education is ridiculous and as said the problem is being removed naturally by tolerance. That is about mainly educating about STDs and pregnancies. Hard enough for teachers to do that.. What level of detail would you expect? You misunderstand my point, I've not said I 'expect' it to be taught equally in sex education, and I've not said kids aren't tolerant. But never mind, I'm bailing on the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 What about the ones who want to be openly gay but are afraid of the backlash? Until people in general and footballers in particular feel they wont be abused for their decisions it's not exactly a fair choice. How do we know there are large numbers of gay people who want to come out but don't because of the backlash? We just don't do we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 A bit like sexism and racism, I cannot remember the last time I heard something homophobic in public... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 A bit like sexism and racism, I cannot remember the last time I heard something homophobic in public... According to some it's rife in society but if it is then it's not something I've encountered in the past decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 According to some it's rife in society but if it is then it's not something I've encountered in the past decade. Honestly, I think it's to do with where you live/work, and the company you keep. I'm sure in some places it is more common, but they are such taboo's now that people tend to keep those views to themselves, if they have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 A bit like sexism and racism, I cannot remember the last time I heard something homophobic in public... You're being ironic, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 According to some it's rife in society but if it is then it's not something I've encountered in the past decade. You are seriously telling this forum that you have not heard a single homophobic remark in the last ten years? Perhaps you should get out more ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2015 Share Posted 27 October, 2015 (edited) You are seriously telling this forum that you have not heard a single homophobic remark in the last ten years? Perhaps you should get out more ... Nothing openly homophobic that I would consider terms of homophobic abuse no. Shouting f*cking fag at someone for example. Never seen that. Maybe you would have a lower tolerance for something you would consider homophobic? How about when I joked with my mate that his black boyfriend had blowjob lips? Homophobic? Edited 27 October, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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