EU referendum

[Johnny Bognor]

That's because you live in an overcrowded country. Rural France is wonderfully quiet and peaceful. France is still the largest country in Europe even after German reunification although that may have passed to the Ukraine if you include the Crimea.

 

Indeed, population density is much higher in the UK. Population denisty in the UK is more than 250% higher than in France...

 

France = 103 people per KM² (66m people across 643,801 km²)

UK = 262 people per KM² (64m people across 243,610 km²)

[buctootim]

Half of our village is holiday homes. There is little work and no public transport outside of the major populations centres. Also it's as cold as ...well you know in winter. Not much amenities nothing. We both worked in Lyon most of the time, had a small flat there for Monday through Thursday and came home at week-ends until we retired. Must say I miss Lyon.

Until you've actually lived in France for some time you cannot understand it's rurality and poverty in many senses.

Don't forget that we have 3.5 million in total unemployment and another 2 million underemployed, without counting all of those in training schemes and the like; 27% of our young people are unemployed and that figure probably rises to 35% of those who cannot leave rural areas.

 

Interesting thanks. I guess travel times from place to place are a factor too. No matter how many times I visit France I always end up under estimating distances. My favourite French places are the medium sized towns - the villages frequently seem dead and the cities a bit feral.

[Window Cleaner]

Indeed, population density is much higher in the UK. Population denisty in the UK is more than 250% higher than in France...

 

France = 103 people per KM² (66m people across 643,801 km²)

UK = 262 people per KM² (64m people across 243,610 km²)

 

Yes no doubt but when you take in the vast wastes of the Larzac and the like the big citys are just as crowded.

Not to mention the verticality of Paris and it's surrounds. The military still has vast wastelands here that you just wouldn't believe, Salisbury Plain x20 or 30 in some cases. Hardly ever used of course.

[buctootim]

That's because you live in an overcrowded country. Rural France is wonderfully quiet and peaceful. France is still the largest country in Europe even after German reunification although that may have passed to the Ukraine if you include the Crimea.

 

I know - but if it were simply empty like much of the Scottish highlands it would be understandable. Its all the signs of human habitation - houses, shops roads etc but largely absent of people I find odd.

[buctootim]

Well 30 odd miles away anyway. Marvellous free motorway if you can be bothered to drop down to Millau and not be conned for the variable 7 to 10 euros for the viaduct.

 

At one point I thought we would end up postumously on youtube for most dramatic accident on that viaduct. An over keen caravan tried to push us through the barrier and down a 600 feet drop.

[Whitey Grandad]

Well 30 odd miles away anyway. Marvellous free motorway if you can be bothered to drop down to Millau and not be conned for the variable 7 to 10 euros for the viaduct.

 

With a caravan on the back? We always used to go through the town but always got stuck behind a hay lorry or something on the climb out. Wasn't the A75 part-financed by EU money? I've always thought that was the reason why there were no tolls.

[Window Cleaner]

With a caravan on the back? We always used to go through the town but always got stuck behind a hay lorry or something on the climb out. Wasn't the A75 part-financed by EU money? I've always thought that was the reason why there were no tolls.

 

Why not, the Dutch seem to manage, heaven forbid that they spend a bent centime more than necessary for the 3 or 4 months that they spend here.

For the finances of the A75 can't say I'm very au-fait really.

[Window Cleaner]

At one point I thought we would end up postumously on youtube for most dramatic accident on that viaduct. An over keen caravan tried to push us through the barrier and down a 600 feet drop.

 

The barriers are solid I think. Still must be frightening though.

[Whitey Grandad]

I know - but if it were simply empty like much of the Scottish highlands it would be understandable. Its all the signs of human habitation - houses, shops roads etc but largely absent of people I find odd.

 

I have visited factories in the north that were on the outside of villages and yet the countryside was so empty that you could see the curvature of the earth. The people are there but are at work or school or at home. Some of the medium-sized towns are only 50,000 people and are 80km from the next. There are only 3 or 4 conurbations that are over 1 million people. Hampshire is 1.76 million including the cities.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why not, the Dutch seem to manage, heaven forbid that they spend a bent centime more than necessary for the 3 or 4 months that they spend here.

For the finances of the A75 can't say I'm very au-fait really.

 

The Dutch spread their summer school holidays over three regions which rotate annually and this year run from 16th July to the 4th September. After decades of experience we have learnt to get to the Med before they start to arrive. I know that their country is as densely populated as ours but in August this cannot be true.

 

Back to the EU...

 

I know there was once a plan to provide money for strategic roads linking all the major ports, Portsmouth to Holyhead for instance. We chose to spend the money on something else which is why Salisbury is gridlocked.

[Window Cleaner]

I have visited factories in the north that were on the outside of villages and yet the countryside was so empty that you could see the curvature of the earth. The people are there but are at work or school or at home. Some of the medium-sized towns are only 50,000 people and are 80km from the next. There are only 3 or 4 conurbations that are over 1 million people. Hampshire is 1.76 million including the cities.

 

Going to shops and stuff takes money, and a lot of my compatriots have very little of that. What they have they like to keep as well. Even people with enough money spend their time in those tacky hard discount places like Netto and Dia.

What's the average salary in the UK £30,000 a year or so ? That's the income here of probably the upper echelons of the middle class, I think a recent survey showed that 14% of the populace have about 700 or 800 £ a month or less. Minimum wage which many get is about 800£ a month after charges.

There is no student loan system to speak of, parents who encourage higher studies pay for it , we have a doctorate and a masters degree from the US for ours, it must have cost us somewhere in the region of 100000 £ I suppose.

So even the well off aren't well off if the kids go on to higher education. Tax relief on all of that was just laughable really.

[Wade Garrett]

I think the people who are cra pping themselves about "it" having "to stand" are the likes of Boris and Gove.

 

Stop retreading the "neh neh we won" stuff. Most of us Remainers accepted that by seven am on Friday. We're getting on with it.

 

The re-referendum Internet idiots are no different to the Brexit conspiro-loons going on about pens on polling day and Farage himself calling it fixed at 11pm on Thursday. That shi t would have happened regardless of winner, don't make out the whole of Leave would gave lost gracefully. Obviously they wouldn't.

 

Personally I am looking forward to most of the Brexiteers, having had their Tony Blair "Thiiiings Can Only Get Bettttterrrr" moment of joy on Friday, start to see the scales falling from their eyes over the coming weeks and months.

 

You won. Suck it up.

 

I must have imagined Blair saying the result may have to be revisited and Heseltine calling for another referendum.

 

I'll suck it up all day long. The best result for our country.

[Whitey Grandad]

I must have imagined Blair saying the result may have to be revisited and Heseltine calling for another referendum.

 

I'll suck it up all day long. The best result for our country.

 

There will have to be another vote of some sort before this business is concluded because the outcome was so narrow. A rerendum is unlikely but a general election within the year almost certain I would have thought.

 

Another factor is that there are national elections in France and Germany next year, April/May and September/October. They are bound to affect our negotiations.

[Window Cleaner]

There will have to be another vote of some sort before this business is concluded because the outcome was so narrow. A rerendum is unlikely but a general election within the year almost certain I would have thought.

 

Another factor is that there are national elections in France and Germany next year, April/May and September/October. They are bound to affect our negotiations.

 

A general election would be very, very risky in fact. If the naysayers think that their referendum vote is likely to be ignored then they may go all the way to the UKIP and the like.

We've (or rather you've) gotten ourselves into a total quandary really. The promise of a referendum which was certainly a measure to gain a few votes at last year's general election seems like a fairly stupid idea just now.

The fact that there was no party line on the campaign has just left you with no structure whatsover.

 

Cameron needed to do a Sarkozy 2005 and say, well yes thanks for you opinion but we'll do it our way anyway.,

 

This all reminds me of the infamous Hoover promotion from the 90's, buy one of our appliances and get 2 free tickets to the US of A. Everybody bought a vacuum cleaner or set of hair curlers or whatever and claimed their airline freeby tickets.

Unable to satisfy demand they took to some weird scheme where thay gave you one travel date and if you couldn't go tough titty. I think it all ended in tears for Hoover with mass legal actions, we 4 went to Disney for the price of a cheapo Hoover.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by Window Cleaner

[Whitey Grandad]

A general election would be very, very risky in fact. If the naysayers think that their referendum vote is likely to be ignored then they may go all the way to the UKIP and the like.

We've (or rather you've) gotten ourselves into a total quandary really. The promise of a referendum which was certainly a measure to gain a few votes at last year's general election seems like a fairly stupid idea just now.

The fact that there was no party line on the campaign has just left you with no structure whatsover.

 

Cameron needed to do a Sarkozy 2005 and say, well yes thanks for you opinion but we'll do it our way anyway.,

 

It has always been fairly stupid. The golden rule of government is that you don't hold a referendum unless you're absolutely certain of getting the result you want.

[Window Cleaner]

It has always been fairly stupid. The golden rule of government is that you don't hold a referendum unless you're absolutely certain of getting the result you want.

 

Unless of course you're Tsipiras or Chirac and have no intention of doing anything whatsoever if the result goes against you.

I seem to remember that Chirac's line was If you don't like it there's always the National Front.

[Wes Tender]

Yes, I certainly did for decisions which involve a major constitutional change. As is the case in many countries, for example Australia has compulsory voting and:

 

'Any alteration to the Consitution must be approved by a 'double majority', that is:

 

a national majority of electors (more than half the voters in Australia must vote YES); and

a majority of electors in a majority of the States (i.e. at least four of the six) (more than half the voters in more than half the States must vote YES)'

 

And a discussion here about Ecuador: http://aceproject.org/electoral-advice/archive/questions/replies/572011840

 

Now I am well aware that we are neither of these countries but British democracy does not have a tradition of holding referendums for major decisions. The practicality of the situation is that Parliament is sovereign and has to make the ultimate decision. From what I had heard before the referendum many people did not have a clear idea about what they were voting for and were confused about the possible outcomes. Yes, one big clusterf*ck.

 

Well, personally I don't believe in a system whereby one is obliged by law to vote. Looking at the countries who have it, apart from Australia, these are hardly a list of the countries which are shining beacons of democracy. Countering your argument that decisions which involved major constitutional changes ought to be settled with a majority of the total electorate in a referendum, then we probably wouldn't be having this argument, as we would have left what used to be the Common Market and became the EU as a result of these successive Treaties which involved major constitutional changes which would very likely have been rejected by the voters.

 

We might not historically have a tradition of referenda, but there are issues like this which cannot be just buried in a political party's manifesto. The Government were forced into holding one by the UKIP success in the European Elections. Ignore the vote to leave the EU and they will face the further rise of UKIP as the only instrument of further protest in a General Election.

[Trader]

I must have imagined Blair saying the result may have to be revisited and Heseltine calling for another referendum.

 

I'll suck it up all day long. The best result for our country.

 

You do know of course, that the establishment will win in the end - they always do.

[aintforever]

It has always been fairly stupid. The golden rule of government is that you don't hold a referendum unless you're absolutely certain of getting the result you want.

 

If Brexit does mess the economy up the Tories are f*cked. Labour just gave to replace Corbyn with someone semi-human and they will win by a mile.

[Nolan]

If Brexit does mess the economy up the Tories are f*cked. Labour just gave to replace Corbyn with someone semi-human and they will win by a mile.

Labour a a LONG way off having any coherence on the economy, let alone a policy.

 

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[Window Cleaner]

If Brexit does mess the economy up the Tories are f*cked. Labour just gave to replace Corbyn with someone semi-human and they will win by a mile.

 

 

Well not really because the Conservative establishment said exactly that would happen. The voters chose to ignore that for the sake of a couple of Polish corner shops which irked them. Then again I guess a Gran in Spennymoor or a dock labourer in Dagenham don't really care what happens to the economy. The banks have probably been shafting them for years so up yours world of finance. The Sun told them to vote OUT and so they did.

[shurlock]

Well not really because the Conservative establishment said exactly that would happen. The voters chose to ignore that for the sake of a couple of Polish corner shops which irked them. Then again I guess a Gran in Spennymoor or a dock labourer in Dagenham don't really care what happens to the economy. The banks have probably been shafting them for years so up yours world of finance. The Sun told them to vote OUT and so they did.

 

That's very out of touch. The leading lights of the leave campaign were conservatives, Brexit is a decades-long conservative obsession and the new PM and reshuffled conservative government will likely be a brexiter. Abesent a snap election and surprising defeat, any **** will happen on the conservatives watch.

[aintforever]

Labour a a LONG way off having any coherence on the economy, let alone a policy.

 

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Could quickly change if (big if) they sort out the Corbyn situation and position themselves centre left.

 

This refurendum is 100% Tory in the making, their idea and mainly their people fighting it out. If it does wreck the economy it will be the biggest **** up in political history. They won't be able to say "you can't trust Labour with the economy" for a while.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by aintforever

[CB Fry]

I see Farage is already complaining about the backpedalling from the leave campaign leading lights.

 

Now I predicted that would happen but not within three days.

 

He is going to absolutely despise the deal we do.

Cracking stuff.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We have fixed term parliaments , so any talk of a "snap" election is nonsense . To dissolve parliament both labour & Tory MPs would need to vote for it for it to clear the threshold requirement of the fixed term act . What are the chances of both parties want an election at the same time? If the Tories want one when labour is in disarray , labour won't back it and if the Tories are struggling with post Brexit issues they're not going to let Labour dictate the timing .

 

The reason for the fixed term parliament was the lib/dumbs wanted it as part of the coalition agreement to stop the Tories cutting and running when it suited them politically .So it was rather amusing to see Cleggy calling for an early election , when he made sure it was no longer in the gift of the PM .

[shurlock]

So the same day Bojo the Clown claims markets are stabilised, the UK has its credit rating cut and the pound hits a 31-year low.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I see Farage is already complaining about the backpedalling from the leave campaign leading lights.

 

Now I predicted that would happen but not within three days.

 

He is going to absolutely despise the deal we do.

Cracking stuff.

 

Only cracking stuff if you don't want to consign UKIP to the political dustbin . If Farage can manufacture a grievance against the establishment , they're still in business . If parliament sign up for a Norway type deal that includes free movement , they're in business . They will walk certain northern areas taking seats off labour. Of course this rather suits the Tories as Tories can never win there . Ideal senario for Tories are SNP in Jockland , UKIP in vast northern/ midland /east coastal areas , consigning labour to London and the big cities . Permanent government if they play this right

[Whitey Grandad]

Could quickly change if (big if) they sort out the Corbyn situation and position themselves centre left.

 

This refurendum is 100% Tory in the making, their idea and mainly their people fighting it out. If it does wreck the economy it will be the biggest **** up in political history. They won't be able to say "you can't trust Labour with the economy" for a while.

 

I agree. This whole debacle has its epicentre in the Conservative Party and John Major warned them about it decades ago saying that it would split the party just as badly as the rift over the Corn Laws.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/winner-by-a-short-head-john-major-held-his-ground-on-europe-but-bigger-hurdles-lie-ahead-by-donald-1556759.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-corn-laws-divided-the-tories-for-25-years-today-they-are-just-as-split-on-europe-1314279.html

 

Labour must also take their share of the blame for not putting the case for their beliefs across effectively. If they can't do such a simple thing properly then what chance do they have of getting elected? If only Milliband hadn't been such a drip. I'm very disillusioned with all of them at the moment. I'm beginning to regret the result of the election last year.

[Whitey Grandad]

Only cracking stuff if you don't want to consign UKIP to the political dustbin . If Farage can manufacture a grievance against the establishment , they're still in business . If parliament sign up for a Norway type deal that includes free movement , they're in business . They will walk certain northern areas taking seats off labour. Of course this rather suits the Tories as Tories can never win there . Ideal senario for Tories are SNP in Jockland , UKIP in vast northern/ midland /east coastal areas , consigning labour to London and the big cities . Permanent government if they play this right

 

And get rid of Scotland completely?

[Whitey Grandad]

So the same day Bojo the Clown claims markets are stabilised, the UK has its credit rating cut and the pound hits a 31-year low.

 

We must have dropped from 5th largest to 6th largest economy by now?

[CB Fry]

Only cracking stuff if you don't want to consign UKIP to the political dustbin . If Farage can manufacture a grievance against the establishment , they're still in business . If parliament sign up for a Norway type deal that includes free movement , they're in business . They will walk certain northern areas taking seats off labour. Of course this rather suits the Tories as Tories can never win there . Ideal senario for Tories are SNP in Jockland , UKIP in vast northern/ midland /east coastal areas , consigning labour to London and the big cities . Permanent government if they play this right

 

Well, yeah.

 

That's why I said he'll hate any deal that is done only the other day.

 

Otherwise they have no reason to exist.

 

Becomes a much more difficult message to get popular support for, especially as it treads an even finer line of racism than before.

 

Will be interesting to see how they play it for the early election whenever it comes.

 

It all depends on the next Labour leader and I have high hopes for action man Dan, if he can get in of course.

[aintforever]

Well not really because the Conservative establishment said exactly that would happen. The voters chose to ignore that for the sake of a couple of Polish corner shops which irked them. Then again I guess a Gran in Spennymoor or a dock labourer in Dagenham don't really care what happens to the economy. The banks have probably been shafting them for years so up yours world of finance. The Sun told them to vote OUT and so they did.

 

I'm sorry but that's irrelivant. If the economic scare stories prove to be accurate how ****ing dumb will the conservative's decision to hold a referendum look?

 

Dave calls a refurendum, then a few months later he is saying vote leave will be an economic disaster, cause World war three etc - why ****ing call one in the first place if that's what could happen?

[CB Fry]

We have fixed term parliaments , so any talk of a "snap" election is nonsense . To dissolve parliament both labour & Tory MPs would need to vote for it for it to clear the threshold requirement of the fixed term act . What are the chances of both parties want an election at the same time? If the Tories want one when labour is in disarray , labour won't back it and if the Tories are struggling with post Brexit issues they're not going to let Labour dictate the timing .

 

The reason for the fixed term parliament was the lib/dumbs wanted it as part of the coalition agreement to stop the Tories cutting and running when it suited them politically .So it was rather amusing to see Cleggy calling for an early election , when he made sure it was no longer in the gift of the PM .

We've had a grand total of one fixed term parliament. One. It's hardly an established way of working.

 

If PM Boris calls one, we'll have one.

[badgerx16]

I'm sorry but that's irrelivant. If the economic scare stories prove to be accurate how ****ing dumb will the conservative's decision to hold a referendum look?

 

Dave calls a refurendum, then a few months later he is saying vote leave will be an economic disaster, cause World war three etc - why ****ing call one in the first place if that's what could happen?

 

DC put the referendum into the last manifesto to prevent a backbence desertion to UKIP, also to pull the sting from the threat of BoJo opposing him in a leadership challenge. He, together with most Tory MPs, never expected it to even be a close result.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm sorry but that's irrelivant. If the economic scare stories prove to be accurate how ****ing dumb will the conservative's decision to hold a referendum look?

 

Dave calls a refurendum, then a few months later he is saying vote leave will be an economic disaster, cause World war three etc - why ****ing call one in the first place if that's what could happen?

 

Because he was so out of touch with the country that he thought he could NOT lose. If he had run a more positive campaign he should have won but let's be clear about this, without Boris he would have survived. They were too busy pushing their personal to care about the welfare of the nation.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by Whitey Grandad

[aintforever]

We have fixed term parliaments , so any talk of a "snap" election is nonsense . To dissolve parliament both labour & Tory MPs would need to vote for it for it to clear the threshold requirement of the fixed term act . What are the chances of both parties want an election at the same time? If the Tories want one when labour is in disarray , labour won't back it and if the Tories are struggling with post Brexit issues they're not going to let Labour dictate the timing .

 

The reason for the fixed term parliament was the lib/dumbs wanted it as part of the coalition agreement to stop the Tories cutting and running when it suited them politically .So it was rather amusing to see Cleggy calling for an early election , when he made sure it was no longer in the gift of the PM .

 

I dunno, I think if the EU refuse to negotiate a deal then the only way to stop the UK breaking up is to hold a general election. Then if the winning party's manefesto is stay in the EU you can say it's the democratic will.

 

It all depends what sort of deal we can thrash out, some sort of Brexit Lite might appease the Jocks and it's not a problem but I can't see the Tories having the appetite for a complete divorce from Europe and the UK breaking apart.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by aintforever

[Whitey Grandad]

I dunno, I think if the EU refuse to negotiate a deal then the only way to stop the UK breaking up is to hold a general election. Then if the winning party's manefesto is stay in the EU you can say it's the democratic will.

 

It all depends what sort of deal we can thrash out, some sort of Brexit Lite might appease the Jocks and it's not a problem but I can't see the Tories having the appetite for a complete divorce from Europe and the UK breaking apart.

 

And if the EU don't offer enough then the only way to stop the time bomb is to hold off activating Article 50. It's the only leverage that we have. So much for 'taking back control '.

[Batman]

And if the EU don't offer enough then the only way to stop the time bomb is to hold off activating Article 50. It's the only leverage that we have. So much for 'taking back control '.

 

jesus, you lot are a bunch of drips

reality will work out somewhere that suits everyone

 

we wont get everything we want and nor will Shultz or Juncker

[badgerx16]

we wont get everything we want and nor will Shultz or Juncker

 

So, we haven't got control back ? What bits that Brexiters think they voted for won't happen ?

[Batman]

So, we haven't got control back ? What bits that Brexiters think they voted for won't happen ?

 

we will get control but as with everything in politics, there will be negotiation

the EU probably wont get full-on free movement of people in/out of the UK

 

something will work that will suit everyone

[Whitey Grandad]

we will get control but as with everything in politics, there will be negotiation

the EU probably wont get full-on free movement of people in/out of the UK

 

something will work that will suit everyone

 

What bargaining cards do you think we have? We can't threaten to walk out because we already have.

[TwoPints]

We must have dropped from 5th largest to 6th largest economy by now?

Yes we have. It was mentioned on 5Live this morning.

 

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[Saint86]

Being reported tonight that french, German and Italian plans for a European super state have been leaked to Polish media and it has caused a degree of uproar.

 

Calls for nations to effectively be dissolved; no more individual foreign policies, the signing over of armies to EU control, no more national central banks, all members of the population will be given an EU tax code in place of national tax, etc etc etc.

 

Early days yet, but if this is actually proved true (we all know its been the long term agenda), and so soon after the referendum, then I am very glad we voted out. It will also be absolutely shocking that such immediate plans were kept from the electorate during the referendum. There is absolutely no way that the remain group did not have that information.

 

I will go so far as to say that if this is true; you saved our democracy and gave your kids a say in their futures.

[Whitey Grandad]

Being reported tonight that french, German and Italian plans for a European super state have been leaked to Polish media and it has caused a degree of uproar.

 

Calls for nations to effectively be dissolved; no more individual foreign policies, the signing over of armies to EU control, no more national central banks, all members of the population will be given an EU tax code in place of national tax, etc etc etc.

 

Early days yet, but if this is actually proved true (we all know its been the long term agenda), and so soon after the referendum, then I am very glad we voted out. It will also be absolutely shocking that such immediate plans were kept from the electorate during the referendum. There is absolutely no way that the remain group did not have that information.

 

I will go so far as to say that if this is true; you saved our democracy and gave your kids a say in their futures.

 

Any one member can veto it as could we, had we stayed.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's dawned on me tonight what has gone wrong in all this business. People voted for what they didn't want but nobody has a clue what they did want.

[buctootim]

Being reported tonight that french, German and Italian plans for a European super state have been leaked to Polish media and it has caused a degree of uproar.

 

Calls for nations to effectively be dissolved; no more individual foreign policies, the signing over of armies to EU control, no more national central banks, all members of the population will be given an EU tax code in place of national tax, etc etc etc.

 

Early days yet, but if this is actually proved true (we all know its been the long term agenda), and so soon after the referendum, then I am very glad we voted out. It will also be absolutely shocking that such immediate plans were kept from the electorate during the referendum. There is absolutely no way that the remain group did not have that information.

 

I will go so far as to say that if this is true; you saved our democracy and gave your kids a say in their futures.

 

Its an options paper by a small group of foreign ministers for use in a discussion about the way forward for the EU. There are many different and competing papers being discussed. Poland is very anti this paper, thats why they've leaked it. Its true but its importance is massively overblown - as with most things EU in the British media.

[buctootim]

[so22saint]

I'm sorry but that's irrelivant. If the economic scare stories prove to be accurate how ****ing dumb will the conservative's decision to hold a referendum look?

 

Dave calls a refurendum, then a few months later he is saying vote leave will be an economic disaster, cause World war three etc - why ****ing call one in the first place if that's what could happen?

 

#it'shappening

[L_O_Z]

Going to shops and stuff takes money, and a lot of my compatriots have very little of that. What they have they like to keep as well. Even people with enough money spend their time in those tacky hard discount places like Netto and Dia.

What's the average salary in the UK £30,000 a year or so ? That's the income here of probably the upper echelons of the middle class, I think a recent survey showed that 14% of the populace have about 700 or 800 £ a month or less. Minimum wage which many get is about 800£ a month after charges.

There is no student loan system to speak of, parents who encourage higher studies pay for it , we have a doctorate and a masters degree from the US for ours, it must have cost us somewhere in the region of 100000 £ I suppose.

So even the well off aren't well off if the kids go on to higher education. Tax relief on all of that was just laughable really.

 

UK average is closer to £25,000 I believe which is crazy really. A first time buyer trying to get on the property ladder around here needs about £30,000+ a year. If you don't want a drugs den you're going to need £40,000+ salary per year (which honestly still buys you f all). Of course that's all irrelevant as rent is so much higher than mortgage payments it's almost impossible to save for a deposit anyway.

[Window Cleaner]

Yes we have. It was mentioned on 5Live this morning.

 

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What we're behind California now ?